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Most unsuitable saloon racing cars


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#51 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 03 February 2002 - 14:52

Amazing, but I would be VERY surprised if this really is true...
Surely a hoax, but maybe it could have something to do with the Steve McQueen movie of 1970?

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#52 scheivlak

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Posted 03 February 2002 - 15:07

Originally posted by Michael Müller

The story behind is available at http://uweb.superlin...oint3/rudi.html

Anybody able to confirm this incident really happened?



Quote from the link: "While on the way to Cannes, Klaus stopped at the LeMans circuit in France to visit his friends participating in the 24-hour endurance race. After drinking a large quantity of champagne, the totally inebriated Pach made a wrong turn exiting the paddock. Unfortunately, this was onto the main straight of the track just as the race was starting!
After realizing his error, Klaus made the best of things and continued to race. He kept up with the leaders for several laps as the mighty M100 engine allowed him to keep pace with the factory Porsches, Ferraris and GT-40 Fords." :lol: :lol:

Conclusion: nice fake by "Bill Schaible, Motorsports Photojournalist"! :wave:

#53 Alfisti

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Posted 03 February 2002 - 15:29

Not so much a poor choice of race car but a poor choice of race. Alfa entered it's piddly 2 litre Giulia GTV in the 500 miler (i think it was pre-1000 days) at Bathurst against the pummelling GTHO Falcons with great big 351Ci engines. A little ambitious methinks.

#54 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 February 2002 - 22:08

Actually, 'fisti, it wasn't that bad for them... as late as 1968 they were a shoe-in to win the Sandown enduro until a wheel broke minutes from the finish.

The Alfas were admired for their endurance in that race... where the V8 shopping cars had to be nursed in various areas, the Alfas were flogged hard all day and raced all the way to the flag.

Drivers like Bartlett, French and Gardner kept them in the spotlight, and they could have pulled of a spectacular upset had a race been rain affected.

Additionally, they were in a different class... being more expensive to buy... price classes existed in those early days and they usually wiped the board in the dearest class, hence Alec Mildren could still run full page ads about how they did so.

#55 William Dale Jr

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Posted 04 February 2002 - 06:58

Didn't an Alfa qualify on the front row for two consecutive years? Or am I getting them confused with something else?

#56 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 February 2002 - 08:00

No, I don't think so, the V8s had plenty in hand over a single lap. Maybe you're thinking of the Bluebirds later on...

#57 William Dale Jr

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Posted 04 February 2002 - 09:36

I just checked my source, and it seems that an Alfa qualified on the front row next to two Falcons in 1967 and next to two Monaros in 1968 - I'm guessing that it was a 3-2-3 grid then. I must admit, though, my source is the trivia quiz in the 1994 Tooheys 1000 programme...
I was pretty sure I wasn't getting confused with the Bluebirds, have that MRA issue somewhere in here...

#58 dmj

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Posted 04 February 2002 - 10:19

A few more pictures of 6.3 here:
http://www.m-100.org...axenberger.html
And, thanks to Frank, I know there are some inaccuracies in this article. But in same number of C&SC was a detailed account about fate of all team cars. I'll post it when I find it.
About Maserati Bora, it was rumour that one of two produced cars will enter historic meetings. I remember reading about it a few years ago but don't know if it actually showed up anywhere?

#59 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 February 2002 - 10:21

Originally posted by William Dale Jr
I just checked my source, and it seems that an Alfa qualified on the front row next to two Falcons in 1967 and next to two Monaros in 1968 - I'm guessing that it was a 3-2-3 grid then. I must admit, though, my source is the trivia quiz in the 1994 Tooheys 1000 programme...
I was pretty sure I wasn't getting confused with the Bluebirds, have that MRA issue somewhere in here...


Bluebirds preceded the arrival of MRA by a decade or more, I think you'll find....

Anyway, I checked sources this time, just to be sure, but bear in mind I've written stories about the cars competing in these races over the past few months so it was all fairly fresh stuff to me....

RCN doesn't actually give grid positions for 1967, but intimates that the Fords had the front row to themselves. Problem is that RCN covered each class separately. So I checked Tuckey's book and there it says: "The three works Fords were fastest in practice, followed by the two Mildren Alfas..."

The photos of the start support this, with four Fords ahead within a hundred yards of the start...

1968 is quite clear, however, Tuckey quotes the exact words of RCN ... that five Monaros and three Fords started in the first eight grid spots. The times tell a worse story, for while the race laps of the 67 race are 3:03 for the Fords, Bartlett is mentioned in RCN as having done 3:03.5 in practice...

Lap times for the Monaros in practice for 1968 are down in 2:56s and 2:57s while no practice times are mentioned for the Alfas. Their best race laps, though, are still in 3:03s...

Sorry, the Alfas might have had a chance in '67, but they were outclassed in '68.

So the trivia quiz needs a bomb under it, doesn't it?

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#60 dmj

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Posted 04 February 2002 - 10:28

Actually, here it is:
http://www.m-100.org...r_mercedes.html
And not so detailed as I remembered...

#61 William Dale Jr

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Posted 04 February 2002 - 10:39

Originally posted by Ray Bell
So the trivia quiz needs a bomb under it, doesn't it?


I should've known to trust an expert :)

Bluebirds preceded the arrival of MRA by a decade or more, I think you'll find....


No, I mean the article on the Bluebird in MRA last year.

#62 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 February 2002 - 11:08

Oh, that MRA... yeah, not so long since I did that one... did you like the Pacer story?

#63 Alfisti

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Posted 04 February 2002 - 13:35

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Actually, 'fisti, it wasn't that bad for them... as late as 1968 they were a shoe-in to win the Sandown enduro until a wheel broke minutes from the finish.

The Alfas were admired for their endurance in that race... where the V8 shopping cars had to be nursed in various areas, the Alfas were flogged hard all day and raced all the way to the flag.


I have seen a video where down Conrod they get absolutely blown to shreds ... totally blown into the weeds ... kinda bad PR. Apparently it was fuel consumption and pit stops that got them close ie. one lap down.

#64 William Dale Jr

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Posted 05 February 2002 - 08:25

Yeah, I did like the Pacer story. I like most, if not all of the stories that appear in MRA.

#65 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 February 2002 - 13:28

Couple of good ones coming up... Alan Gissing's Renault-Holden and Wayne Mahnken's turbo EH in the Oddjobs series. I'm off to Melbourne tomorrow to see Mahnken, something of a hero of mine since I saw him do so well at Longford with an earlier EH.

Will also be seeing Bill Patterson again, he's a pretty frail old man now, as is Reg Hunt, but I don't know if I'll be able to gain an audience with him.

#66 Graham Clayton

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Posted 05 February 2002 - 20:58

Seeing that the Bathurst 1000 has been mentioned a bit, here are some unusual cars that competed at both Phillip Island and Bathurst in the "Great Race"

a) NSU 600cc Prinz (1960)
b) Mercedes 220SE (1961)
c) Citroen DS (1962)
d) Humber Snipe automatic (1963)
e) Humber Vogue (1964)
f) Dodge Phoenix automatic (1967)

There is a classic photo of Paddy Hopkirk in one of the Mini Cooper S's
with all 4 wheels off the asphalt trying to overtake the Dodge
on the way up to the cutting in the 1967 race. If someone
has the picture, could they possibly post it to the TNF?

#67 2F-001

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Posted 05 February 2002 - 21:21

Re: the hulking great Merc blundering on to the track at Le Mans...
The link says it was built in 1970 - so what was it doing in the 1966 24-hour race?
Amusing, but rather a feeble hoax...! :stoned:

#68 dmj

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Posted 06 February 2002 - 16:47

A combination of a car already mentioned in this thread and a not so usual starting number... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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#69 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 06 February 2002 - 22:18

Originally posted by Michael Müller
How about this 6.3 at Le Mans 1970?

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The story behind is available at http://uweb.superlin...oint3/rudi.html

Anybody able to confirm this incident really happened?

I'm with scheivlak, I've don't know anything about it, but the first time I saw that picture, and before i read any of the text, I though 'thats a fake'. It looks all wrong.

#70 racer69

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Posted 07 February 2002 - 05:50

Did anyone actually think this pic was ever real.

As for unsuitable cars, how about the Mazda Astina hatch used in the BTCC in the early 90s

#71 McRonalds

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Posted 26 February 2002 - 14:37

I recently found that one; Oh my god! :eek:

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#72 byrkus

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Posted 26 February 2002 - 14:48

Well, I'm not quite sure what THAT is, but the doors are definetaly from Citroën Dyane.

Am I right??

#73 McRonalds

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Posted 26 February 2002 - 15:23

Try this link and learn more...

#74 dmj

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Posted 26 February 2002 - 16:14

I heard about this 2CV 24h race... it must be a funny sight (and sound, too).

#75 Gerr

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Posted 26 February 2002 - 16:31

The Luftwaffe loses again: http://www.sentex.ne...ov_60_mess.html

#76 No27

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Posted 26 February 2002 - 20:10

Originally posted by dmj
I heard about this 2CV 24h race... it must be a funny sight (and sound, too).


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#77 Michael Müller

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Posted 26 February 2002 - 21:14

The Messerschmitt Tiger - or TG 500 it was named in some countries due to trade mark legislation - was a damn fast 500 cc car with an incredible road holding...!

#78 Ian McKean

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Posted 13 March 2002 - 02:10

Originally posted by McRonalds
...but that Rolls Royce of course is my favourite (as Frank already mentioned)...

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:p


...that Rolls Royce, of course, is not the one that Bill Bengry drove in the World Cup. It rather looks to me as if it has semi elliptic front springs. Perhaps it is a Rolls Royce silhouette on a Land Rover chassis.

Bill (christened Albert Edward, incidentally) was approached by the owner of Autobar Vending who had no rally experience but lots of dosh and wanted to do the World Cup rally in 'the best car in the World'. Bill could not persuade him to use something more suitable.

Bill ran a garage in Leominster and had initially made his name on road events. He won the RAC Championship in 1960 and 1961 and also the Motoring News Championship in 1961 driving a relatively standard VW. He also had some works drives for Rover, coming 7th and 1st in class on the Safari. In those days you didn't have to register in championships to qualify for points and Bill did not have time to read motoring magazines. He had no idea he was about to win the RAC Championship because his navigator had not told him!

He was quite quick in the forests too, winning the 1965 (I may be a year out here) Welsh International in a private Cortina GT.

Actually the first thing of note that Bill won was the Mobilgas Economy Run (could have been a class win, I'm not sure) navigated by my old man.

Bill was a good choice to prepare and drive a World Cup entry because he a was an excellent practical engineer and nearly always got to the finish. He had his own ideas on car preparation. He would experiment with van and estate car rear springs on his Cortina instead of going to Boreham for the normal competition items. I navigated for Bill on the 1972 Welsh International in a Simca Rally 1 and Bill had to stuff some bits he cut out of a used tyre that Des O'Dell gave us between the body and the front suspension to restore the ride height and make it handle again.

Back to the Rolls, it was basically standard apart from being stripped down, seam welded and all the aircon etc. taken off to save weight and power. Rolls were asked for advice before the event but were totally unhelpful. Funnily enough after the event they wanted know exactly what had broken. They obviously did not approve of the exhausts being routed over the roof (as Bill had done in his London to Sydney Marathon Cortina). I had a ride in it before the event and can't say I was too impressed.

Bill carried on doing the occasional "clubbie" rally (in garage trade-ins or demonstrators usually) until not long before his death.

He had a great sense of humour. Patrick Head and I were going testing our kart once and decided we would mark out a standing quarter mile and see how quick it was. Patrick had a massive tape so we chucked in into the kart's seat, loaded the kart on the trailor and set off for the circuit. On the way we pulled in to Bengry's to get some petrol. Bill happened to be standing there, looked into the kart and saw this enormous tape measure.

"What's that for", he said, "measuring the contact gap?"

#79 Mac Lark

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Posted 04 April 2002 - 06:14

Tony Lanfranchi won the British Touring Car Championship - at least once - in a Russian car beginning with M and spelt something like Moskivich.

Most unlikely Touring car championship winner?

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#80 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 April 2002 - 08:06

Originally posted by dmj
Recently I heard that Adrian Hamilton tried to race a Mercedes 600 back in 1970 or 1971! He entered that car, probably in more or less standard specification in a race in Thruxton, with predictable results - tyre problems forced him to retire early (that beast had 3 tons - was it the heaviest racing car ever?) Anyone has a picture?
Also, I would like to know more about cars that looked unsuitable for racing but were raced anyway. Isettas entered for Mille Miglia come to mind first, then Lanfranchi Moskviches that even proved successful because of strange rules... Audi 200 Avant Quattros in rallying, Volvo station wagons in BTCC...
More favorites?


First post in the thread... it was tucked away, but it was there.

#81 dmj

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Posted 04 April 2002 - 12:18

Another contender: a new book on IMSA history is said to contain pictures of someone racing an AMC Pacer!

#82 scheivlak

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Posted 04 April 2002 - 14:16

And how about these ones (from the Melkus thread) :

1975 - Schleiz B5 DDR 75.round
52 Helmut Assmann / DDR Trabant Spezial
59 Günter Krautwurst / DDR Trabant Spezial

great driver names BTW! :)

#83 ensign14

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Posted 04 April 2002 - 16:46

How about a Trabant in the World Sportscar Championship?

Nuerburgring in c. 1961, a couple of Frenchmen had a go...it's in Wimpffen somewhere (not got it with me at the moment)

#84 ensign14

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Posted 04 April 2002 - 19:03

Originally posted by ensign14
How about a Trabant in the World Sportscar Championship?

Nuerburgring in c. 1961, a couple of Frenchmen had a go...it's in Wimpffen somewhere (not got it with me at the moment)


Found it - Jackie Barthelemy/Xavier Boulanger, car no. 29, Nuerburgring 500kms 1961, Trabi 601, entered by M Barthelemy, did not finish

#85 carlos.maza

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Posted 05 April 2002 - 13:29

¿1969? 84 hours of Nurburgring.

Argentine made "Torino" almost won the race.
It lost too much time coming into the boxes to make a repair.
The car was huge compared to the other cars: 4 liter 6 cyl in line, 1.5 ton, ZF gearbox. The car was derived from the US Rambler American and built in Argentina by IKA Renault (Industrias Kaiser Argentina).

Anybody has more details?

Carlos

#86 dmj

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Posted 17 October 2002 - 11:18

Well, in occasion of my 1000th post here I decided to revive my thread with most replies so far. It turned this is the one. So, any new contenders here? I would like to add Paris-Dakar Renault 20 turbo, as mentioned in my R30 thread recently... And I would like to know if anyone who joined TNF in last few months can provide me with picture of a Mercedes 600 racing somewhere?

#87 BRG

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Posted 17 October 2002 - 11:29

Extending it to rallying, I guess the Ford Galaxies that were entered on the Monte Carlo Rally in the late 1960s must be fairly unsuitable. If you want a car to drive fast along narrow, winding mountain roads covered in snow and ice, the obvious choice is...a Galaxie!

Returning to the Mercedes theme, the 450SLCs that were used in rallying in the late 1970s would also be deemed unsuitable, if it wasn't for the fact that they were actually surprisingly competitive, even on gravel. Of course, having an engine twice as big as everyone else helped!

#88 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 October 2002 - 12:33

Were there really Galaxies in the Monte?

I recall the Falcon Sprints of the mid-sixties, sporting V8 engines and proving themselves somewhat competitive despite an acknowledged difficulty with their size... and they were a lot smaller than Galaxies.

#89 Simpson RX1

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Posted 17 October 2002 - 12:35

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dmj
I heard about this 2CV 24h race... it must be a funny sight (and sound, too).

Not as dumb as you might think.

The cars in these pictures are running to a sort of 'silhouette' formula which allows for some pretty hefty mods, most popular being an engine transplant from a four cylinder 1300cc GS - as I understand it, they're good for over 130mph, although even a 2CV lump with a big bore kit will make a standard 'tin snail' anything but!

I competed in the UK 2CV championship, which doesn't allow overbores, but even so these cars will hit near on 100mph with the right gearing - there's nothing quite like flashing other cars out of the way in the fast lane of the motorway, and then seeing the look on their faces when they realise they're being passed by a lowered, full race 2CV at 90mph!!!!!!!!!!

Incidentally, they used to have a 24hr race for UK 2CV's held at Mondello Park in Ireland, and indeed may still do.

#90 BRG

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Posted 17 October 2002 - 12:55

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Were there really Galaxies in the Monte?

Damn it, Ray, now you ask that, I am not so sure! Maybe I am confusing the Monte with the Galaxies that ran in British saloon car racing (now that definitely DID happen - I think!).

Let me check, unless anyone else can confirm it?. I am at work, so have no reference works with me.

#91 Frank de Jong

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Posted 17 October 2002 - 13:26

The Monte cars were definitely Falcon Sprints.

#92 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 October 2002 - 15:55

Nor the Monte, but Henri Greder ran a Galaxie at least once in the Tour de France Automobile. Okay for those long straight French roads, but quite a handful at speed on a mountain road, even in Summer, I'd have thought.

Dino - congrats on your 1000th post :clap: Do remember to write to Bira and ask nicely for your webspace :)

#93 Ian McKean

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Posted 18 October 2002 - 09:22

Originally posted by BRG
Extending it to rallying, I guess the Ford Galaxies that were entered on the Monte Carlo Rally in the late 1960s must be fairly unsuitable. If you want a car to drive fast along narrow, winding mountain roads covered in snow and ice, the obvious choice is...a Galaxie!

Returning to the Mercedes theme, the 450SLCs that were used in rallying in the late 1970s would also be deemed unsuitable, if it wasn't for the fact that they were actually surprisingly competitive, even on gravel. Of course, having an engine twice as big as everyone else helped!


Large cars do seem to go quite well on gravel, even though people like Skoda with their Octavia often bleat about needing a smaller car. I suspect that it is often used as an excuse when the real reason for not being competitive is simply smaller budget, less good engineers and maybe drivers etc. Weight may well be an issue when you are all limited to 2 litres, but of course this did not apply in the old days with the Merc. I think the Merc 450SLC had to use the auto box, didn't they?

I watched Tony Fowkes in a works Merc 450 on a forest stage once and it seemed to be going quite well. But this was on a windy bit, and these big cars really thrive on the faster stages. Culcheth was very competitive in the Triumph 2.5 PI, winning the Scottish I think (or maybe he only came second) one year. I co-drove a Triumph 2.5 PI on the TAP (Portuguese) Rally once and it was really impressive on the faster gravel stages. When my driver got car sick, I had to take over driving as well as navigating (i.e. trying to follow the car in front) while he "died" in the passenger seat and found it to handle very well. The overdrive was set to work on all gears with a switch on the gearlever, and this helped a lot compared to a normal manual box because changes to overdrive were with full power.

#94 dmj

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 21:54

How about an early Sixties Lagonda Rapide, apparently campaigned in British Saloon Car Championship by Peter Sellers' manager Bill Wills? He also won over 2-litre class in Brighton Speed Trials in 1964, according to article in April's C&SC. O.K. it had a noble and thoroughbred underwear but certainly wasn't intended for racing, even with longest strech of imagination...

#95 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 23:29

When I was at Rockingham a couple of weeks ago, somebody was trying to race a VW turbo diesel van against Beetles and such.

#96 stuartbrs

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 02:56

This is a little off topic, but is the Mercedes that is talked about earlier in this thread the same model that is featured in the Frankenheimer film "Ronin"??

Great car chases in the film, with the gorgeous Audi S6 , but in my minds eye, the Merc steals the show, did Jean Pier Jarrier drive all the stunt cars in that film? ie the Merc?

#97 cm50

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 03:11

I wonder if any of my Aust colleagues recall the Rover 3.5 that raced back in the late 60's. I think it had official Leyland backing and was powered by a TRACO moded Oldsmobile V8, but then something makes me recall it was 4.4 litres so maybe it was a Leyland P76. Anyway it looke great with its flaired gaurds etc

#98 Frank S

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 03:31

Unsuitable for racing? I have a couple-three examples from real life, albeit life-gone-bye.

I ran a slalom (autocross) in my 1967 VW Westphalia pop-top camper van. Fun but no cigar. I also drag-raced it against a 1952 Hudson Hornet on the beach straight at Tijuana Playas.

When did the Messerschmitts hit the market? Late 40s, early 50s? On one of the Foreign Car nights at Carrell Speedway, Gardena, California, when I saw Phil Hill doing it in an Alfa and/or an MG TC, there was a demo "race" among a gaggle of the little bubble cars. Only a few of the ten or so that started were able to complete a lap of the half-mile clay track without tipping over. In that era the usual Carrell crowd was midget, sprint-big car, "jalop" oriented, and every time one of the foreigners had a problem, there was a general uproar and widening of smiles, so you can imagine the expressions of joy at seeing a half-dozen weird-looking, odd-named, ineffectual vehicles scattered about the landscape.


A few years later I was at a party where the majority of attendees, like the host, were foreign students enrolled in the Cinema department at USC. Kasem Burukam-Kovit showed films he made at an East Coast racing facility, where a 1955 Ford Thunderbird participated. In a tight left-hand turn the T-bird tilted up on its right side—and stood there! Another roar of delight and derision from the assembly.
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Still even more years later, in that few days before the weekend of the United States Grand Prix at Riverside, 1960, when I was the single turn person at number Seven (flag in one hand, extinguisher in the other, and a land-line headset in communication with race central), there was a practice session for one or another of the sedan and sports car supporting races. At the end of the session, as was common practice, each turn talker called in as the last car in the session passed his station (No longer seen, but usual at the time, was the custom of opening gates to allow spectators the luxury of crossing the track. The Chief Steward needed to know the course was clear before letting the flow go).

The last car to take the checker in that practice session was " . . . through Turn Two."
"Through Turn Four . . . Hey, what the heck is that?"
"Through Turn Six . . . It's a Falcon!"
"Through Turn Seven, it's a Bird!"
And in concert, following the lyric of a contemporary hit song,
"It's a Dog . . . "
"It's a Bird Dog!" I guess you had to be there.

It was a 1960 Ford Falcon, a 170 CI inline six-cylinder with two-speed automatic transmission, having in that respect got the jump on Jim Hall by several years. My memory tells me it was a four-door sedan, but I don't want to believe anyone would go so far, even in that place at that time. I do not want to defame Fords in general nor those round 60-63 Falcons in particular. They were wonderful, simple tools, indestructible like anvils. The design was such that with occasional modifications and updates, they were made in Argentina for almost thirty years. Here's a replica of a 1973 model:
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BIG view of the Falcon model


One of the best cars I ever had was a 1962 Falcon Ranchero with a 250 CI Ford truck engine. It had enough room under the hood (bonnet) you could practically stand on the ground next to the engine.


OK, one more Unsuitable-for-saloon-racing vehicle: 1971 Chevrolet Vega Kammback Station Wagon. Chevrolet homologated the hatchback, maybe even the sedan, but I couldn't get SCCA to let me race the wagon. It was great fun to run track days and time trials, and I still think it was a very good-looking car.
Vega Kammback on the tracks


Frank S

#99 RDV

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 03:34

....1969 Rio de Janeiro 1000Km, Emerson Fittipaldi in a VW Beetle ( albeit a bit modified!!) on the first row besides Carlos Pace`s Alfa P33 and ahead of sundry Ford GT40`s and Lola T70`s... Karl Ludvigsen wrote about it in "The mouse that roared" , and probably has shots of it ... how about it Karl?

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#100 antonvrs

antonvrs
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  • 494 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 16 April 2003 - 03:42

Originally posted by david_martin
I always thought the Volvo 850 estate that ran in the BTCC in the first half of the 90's was amusing. Those two Cadillac sedan de Villes than were entered at Le Mans in 1950 must rank up there somewhere too :)


Those two Cadillacs were actually: one Model 61 "Sport Coupe" in relatively standard form except for multiple carburettors and a floor change manual gearbox and: one similar chassis with a very ungainly aerodynamic body designed by someone at Grumman Aviation. The aerodynamic one was nicknamed "Le Monster" by the French(?). It slid off the road and had to be dug out of a sand trap but finished 11th behind the standard-bodied Model 61 Sport Coupe which came 10th.
The Model 61 Sport coupe was the smallest, lightest, cheapest Cadillac available and was dropped from the line a year or so later.
These cars were on display at Briggs Cunningham's Museum in Costa Mesa, CA for 25 years or so- until the '90s when Miles Collier bought the whole collection.
The Chryslers mentioned in Paul Frere's book were not flathead sixes but 331 ci "Hemi" V8s. The late Mark Dees built a replica a dozen or more (?) years ago and ran it in the Mille Miglia Storica.
Frere also raced an Oldsmobile 88 at Spa in '52 or so.

Anton