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Most unsuitable saloon racing cars


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#101 antonvrs

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 03:50

Originally posted by dmj
Another contender: a new book on IMSA history is said to contain pictures of someone racing an AMC Pacer!


The Pacers were quite competitive in IMSA for a while. The rules rewarded creative cheating and the Pacer team was more creative than some.
The engine was a 4 litre inline six with a single carburettor, twin choke, I believe. Directly below the secondary choke was a 40mm hole bored in the manifold. Jetting it must have been interesting but I guess it worked pretty well at the top end.

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#102 marhal

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 04:02

[QUOTE]Originally posted by carlos.maza
[B]¿1969? 84 hours of Nurburgring.

Argentine made "Torino" almost won the race.
It lost too much time coming into the boxes to make a repair.
The car was huge compared to the other cars: 4 liter 6 cyl in line, 1.5 ton, ZF gearbox. The car was derived from the US Rambler American and built in Argentina by IKA Renault (Industrias Kaiser Argentina).

Anybody has more details?

The Torino was a real purebreed car. Derivated from the Rambler Rogue, was modificated in Argentina by IKA (Industrias Kaiser Argentina). His finest hour was in the 1969 Marathon de la Route when one Torino arrived fourth. But, during many hours, the Torinos raced 1-2. It was a organizated effort called "Misión Argentina" with Juan M. Fangio as organizative leader. Sadly, that effort hadn´t a continuity. I still think that the Torino could made a good race at Spa 24 hours or at Le Mans........................

Today, in the Argentine Turismo Carretera are racing Chevys Nova against Ford Falcons, but so much modified................

#103 Bruce Moxon

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 10:15

Chris Heyer (later to drive the Audi 5+5) ran a FWD Subaru at Wanneroo, in a round of the Australian Touring Car Championship. One of the 1400s.

Some optimist drove a Morris Marina at Bathurst. Peter Webster drove a VW Passat there too. Told me you could feel the front track increasing and the wheels toe out under brakes.

My father raced a Studebaker Lark and an Austin A95 Westminster. One had no brakes, the other couldn't keep bearings in its engine for more than about three laps.

And I use an early 90s Mazda Astina hatch in competition. Had it for a year and won my class in the State Motorkhana Championship. So stop laughing!

Bruce Moxon

#104 dmj

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 10:31

Originally posted by stuartbrs
This is a little off topic, but is the Mercedes that is talked about earlier in this thread the same model that is featured in the Frankenheimer film "Ronin"??

Great car chases in the film, with the gorgeous Audi S6 , but in my minds eye, the Merc steals the show, did Jean Pier Jarrier drive all the stunt cars in that film? ie the Merc?

IIRC it was Jabouille, not Jarier...

#105 stuartbrs

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 12:18

oops... Yes you are right it was Jabouille, my mistake

I didnt know Frankenheimer made the film as I was watching it, I just kept thinking "that footage from the car chases reminds me of Grand Prix"...and as the credits rolled there was Frankenheimers name!!

I wonder if those racing Merc`s influenced the decision to use them in the film, seemed like an odd choice of car at first.

#106 Holger Merten

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 12:36

Originally posted by Bruce Moxon
Chris Heyer (later to drive the Audi 5+5)



I read this Typ often in this thread, what is an Audi 5+5? :confused:

#107 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 12:53

cm50... that was Jim Smith's Rover... not a touring car, but a Sports Sedan, much more wildly modified than allowed in touring cars. Not sure if it was a Leyland P76 engine (which was essentially a Rover engine with each bank raised about an inch to accommodate the extra stroke, just like when Ford went up from 302 to 351), but it probably was.

Bruce, didn't Peter Lander also run a Passat at Bathurst? Of course, it's simply not fair to include Bathurst cars in this list because of the nature of the race in the early days.

And don't ridicule the Larks too much... they were quick till their brakes went south. A95s, of course, did quite well in English racing for a while, even against Jags, and Barry Gurdon's didn't run too many bearings.

#108 cm50

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 13:08

You are right Ray but Im not so sure it was modified any more than some of those that have been mentioned.

And of course the mention of Sports sedans opens up a whole new thread!;)

#109 Catalina Park

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 13:16

The driver is someone that posts on this forum.
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#110 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 13:17

Yeah, cm50... A30s with Holden engines, Minis with Holden engines beside the driver and running through a VW box to the front wheels, Datsun 1000s with Waggott TC4V engines and stormwater downpipes as exhaust systems, Goggomobiles with Rambler V8s, Hillman Imps with 289s, lots of little goodies...

#111 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 13:17

Originally posted by Catalina Park
The driver is someone that posts on this forum.
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Only when he's not preoccupied seeking out box jellyfish in the dead grass in his backyard...

#112 stuartbrs

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 13:35

I read this Typ often in this thread, what is an Audi 5+5?



An Audi 5+5 is basically the 5 cylinder version of the 1982 Audi 80. It was called a 5+5 here in Australia because it was the 5 cyclinder engine and could seat 5 people ( as well as having 5 forward gears, maybe it should have been called the Audi 5+5+5! ).

Im not sure if it was called that anywhere else. A fairly smart looking car for its day, I was looking for one about 5 years ago, and whenever I told my friends what type of car I was looking for, they always said "why didnt Audi just call it an Audi 10???!!!"

Audi rallied the same bodied car in Quattro form in the early 80`s, known then as the Audi 80 Quattro, none of the Quattro versions of that early Audi 80 ( 5+5) made it to Australia officially.

*blush* I still think they look rather neat...

#113 Holger Merten

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 13:40

Thank you stuartbrs. The Audi 5+5 then was the australian version of the Audi 80 CD 5E with 136 HP. (Or 115, which is not the injection engine?)

#114 Gary Davies

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 14:04

Originally posted by Vitesse2
I've always found it rather difficult to believe that Jack Sears won the first British Saloon Car Championship in an Austin A105 Westminster ... :eek:

Orright, orright, so it took me 14 months to trip over this thread. :blush:

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Picture, depicting Jack Sears, lifted from The Racing Driver

#115 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 14:19

You know, somewhere I have a photo of a Dodge V8 (circa 1930) racing at Port Wakefield in the early fifties...

#116 Frank de Jong

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 14:53

Originally posted by stuartbrs


An Audi 5+5 is basically the 5 cylinder version of the 1982 Audi 80. It was called a 5+5 here in Australia because it was the 5 cyclinder engine and could seat 5 people ( as well as having 5 forward gears, maybe it should have been called the Audi 5+5+5! ).


Thank god it did not have the VAG 4+E gearbox - that would have made the Audi 5+5+4+E :lol:

Seriously, that car was named the Audi 4000 in the US IIRC. Thats 5*5*5*4*4*2

#117 Brun

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 16:51

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Thank you stuartbrs. The Audi 5+5 then was the australian version of the Audi 80 CD 5E with 136 HP. (Or 115, which is not the injection engine?)


136 in European trim, American models got the 115 bhp version (which is indeed the 4000). The Audi 5+5 also has 115 bhp and looks like this:
Posted Image
Audi's 4000 was also available as the 4000 quattro, which is more akin to the 90 quattro in Europe, by the way :drunk:

Anyway, 80 CD5E's are very very rare nowadays. But as it happens, I know of one only a couple of blocks from here. Bronze paint, pristine condition, I love that car...

#118 dmj

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 21:22

These Audi 80s were quite good in 1600 cc class of ETC, without checking Frank's site I believe they dominated it for most of late 70's and early 80's (together with odd VW Scirocco or Toyota Corolla, IIRC)

#119 Holger Merten

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 21:27

I think with the same engine, the Scirrocos were more popular, but don't forget tha Moss was EC in the Touring car class of 1600ccm in1980 with an Audi 80 - YES. Success before the quattroo era, and Audi forgot it (nearly). They will remember, if they need the right press release.!

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#120 stuartbrs

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 00:12

I`m fairly certain that the Audi 5+5 was injected, at least the later models ( 84 onwards ) were.

I own an `84 100, which has the injected 5 in it, and Ive always thought those 5+5`s must have had a bit of go, being a smaller lighter car.

So the Quattro versions are quite rare now? Thats a shame, Ive had this dream for a few years of hunting one down somewhere, decking it out with some nice big wheels and tyres , fitting a turbo and going WRX hunting!! I thought maybe they were cheap in the UK or Germany :(

The last versions here were called Audi 80`s ( 1986- early 87 ) , the 90 tag didnt hit here until around 87 - 89, not sure exactly when...but I guess technically the 5+5 was an Audi 90!

Motorsport ran an article on Moss in the Audi 80`s a last year.

And Im so glad Im not the only one that think theyre a great looking car!! :D

#121 Brun

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 09:45

Originally posted by stuartbrs
I`m fairly certain that the Audi 5+5 was injected, at least the later models ( 84 onwards ) were.

I own an `84 100, which has the injected 5 in it, and Ive always thought those 5+5`s must have had a bit of go, being a smaller lighter car.

So the Quattro versions are quite rare now? Thats a shame, Ive had this dream for a few years of hunting one down somewhere, decking it out with some nice big wheels and tyres , fitting a turbo and going WRX hunting!! I thought maybe they were cheap in the UK or Germany :(

The last versions here were called Audi 80`s ( 1986- early 87 ) , the 90 tag didnt hit here until around 87 - 89, not sure exactly when...but I guess technically the 5+5 was an Audi 90!

Motorsport ran an article on Moss in the Audi 80`s a last year.

And Im so glad Im not the only one that think theyre a great looking car!! :D


The American and Australian versions have a 115 bhp fuel-injected engine, you're right.

Well, 80 CD5E's are very rare. The 80 quattros are not, you'll frequently find one on this site. The 136 bhp versions are very quick, but you can always junk the engine from a 100/5000 turbo and put it in. That'll get you around 200 bhp.

There were non-aspirated tuned versions too, by Abt and Treser. I have some information about those somewhere, if you want it.

#122 Geoff E

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 10:54

If you think that an odd number of wheels renders something unsuitable for motor racing, look here:- http://www.fortuneci...g/1060/id30.htm

#123 Bruce Moxon

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 11:14

Originally posted by Ray Bell
[And don't ridicule the Larks too much... they were quick till their brakes went south. A95s, of course, did quite well in English racing for a while, even against Jags, and Barry Gurdon's didn't run too many bearings. [/B]



Nooo, the Study used to kill big-ends and the Austin had no brakes. None. Zero. Dad would brake 300 yards before everyone else at the bottom of Conrod. But I did toy with the idea of an A95 for Group N, just to spend far too much money to wank around at the back of the field.

Unsuitable cars? How about Bob Forbes' HD Holden?


BM

#124 Bruce Moxon

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 11:17

Geoff E, is it bad form to ask why there are no photos of the Reliants on the track?

BM

#125 petefenelon

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 11:43

A few unlikely competition cars....

A string of little GpA Daihatsu microcars that turned up on the RAC Rally - Terry Kaby comes to mind as the perpetrator of many of them...

A 3.0 Vauxhall Senator that had been either a taxi (or possibly a police car?) in Doncaster that trailed around at the back in about '91...

Ginger Marshall's Mini Traveller's been alluded to further up the thread, but who was it that ran a Ford Thames in saloon car racing in the early 60s? (before my time) - I believe the RACMSA later said that it was a "commercial vehicle" and therefore not eligible.

I've read a lot of accounts of how good two-stroke SAABs used to be in SCCA Production races - they never had much form on track here!

Many years later Lionel Abbott had a go with a Group N SAAB 9000 in our production car series - I seem to recall it did well at the Willhire once, which also makes me think of the Mk3 Escorts that turned out there...

I did once see someone drag-race a stock Honda S800 coupe. Made a heck of a noise!

I've seen pictures of a very highly modified Opel GT dragster with mandatory big-block V8 sticking out of the front of it (I think in AA/GS - I'm not terribly well up on old US drag classes, but essentially the "standard-ish body and anything goes on the engine apart from nitro" class.)

Worst racing idea ever - the P100 pickup challenge Ford briefly ran in the early nineties. They didn't do much to the handling on them... I think that was the last time Divina Galica was seen on track wasn't it?

And I guess a couple of ultra-long-distance rally winners were pretty unlikely too - then again I guess the Hillman Hunter was rugged enough to become the Peykaan ;) but there's no real excuse for the old Landcrab is there? :)

#126 Geoff E

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 11:48

Originally posted by Bruce Moxon
Geoff E, is it bad form to ask why there are no photos of the Reliants on the track?

BM


No harm in askin' but I can't answer! There is the report here:- http://www.fortuneci...g/1060/id22.htm with a promise of more photo's later, but I don't know when (or if) it will happen.

#127 Catalina Park

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 11:48

Originally posted by Bruce Moxon



Nooo, the Study used to kill big-ends and the Austin had no brakes. None. Zero. Dad would brake 300 yards before everyone else at the bottom of Conrod. But I did toy with the idea of an A95 for Group N, just to spend far too much money to wank around at the back of the field.

BM

My dad used to do second gear in his Lark, it turned out to be a manufacturing fault that the gear was not engaging properly and after a bit of machining it was fixed but it took a while to sort out.

I was thinking of a Morris 1100S in Group Nc just for the novelty value!
Could you imagine a field of Monaros, Toranas, Falcons, etc. with an idiot in an 1100 getting in the way every 3 laps! :rotfl:

#128 petefenelon

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 11:50

Originally posted by Geoff E


No harm in askin' but I can't answer! There is the report here:- http://www.fortuneci...g/1060/id22.htm with a promise of more photo's later, but I don't know when (or if) it will happen.


I've got some pics of the indoor Reliant race that was held at Autosport International a few years ago somewhere or other..... now that was barking!


pete

#129 petefenelon

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 11:56

Oooh - and not all that unlikely except in the context of the series - what about the Ruch brothers and their Ford Mustangs in the DTM? - they didn't actually comply with any of the class regs for a long time but the organisers let them in 'cos they were no real threat to anyone, made up the numbers, and looked and sounded fairly spectacular....

Come to think of it, didn't Irmscher do Omegas in the DTM for a while too - see above re: the rallying Vauxhall Senator ;)

pete

#130 Paul Newby

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 14:46

What an interesting lot of old rubbish on this thread :)

As Ray has mentioned there has been plenty of old rubbish that has raced at Bathurst especially in the '60's. Infact I recently saw a two part ( :eek: ) history of Hillman at Bathurst - everything from Imps to Minxs to Hunters! There have been the odd Hillman race in Group N - Imps and a Minx. There is some tragic talking about building a Group N Hunter, but I reckon he should do a Hustler in mustard :smoking:

Talking of Vauxhall Vivas, there was a young kid who has recently built one up (no kidding) I think for Group N. It looks quite neat, sounds OK, but was very slow.

The Audi 5+5 also set a number of Australian speed and endurance records in 1981 at Surfers Paradise Raceway, covering 2957.72km in a 24 hour period. The drivers were Kevin Bartlett, Colin Bond, Fred Gibson and Chris Heyer. Amazingly in the early hours of the morning police stopped proceedings due to complaints about noise levels, the Audi was impounded, the Pr officer tried to sort the legal tangle and the record attempt restarted in the morning. The Audi had a German prepared engine with no emissions (probably the 135hp one) 4.9 final drive, brakes from the 100, and it ran on slicks. I'm not sure that this is the car that Heyer ran at Bathurst.

The picture of the Mercedes 6.3 "racing" at the "1970" Le Mans 24 Hour reminded me of the incident involving a Chrysler Valiant gatecrashing the final round of the 1971 Australian Touring Car C'ship at Oran Park. Max Stahl's report from RCN was quoted in the latest issue of "Aust Muscle Car" and it is worth quoting in its entirety:

"Another car suddenly appeared on the track. It was an ordinary road-going Valiant Pacer, doing about 40mph, driven by a hat-less (no helmet), belt-less, cigarette-smoking dare-devil who for some fantastic reason had decided that here was his chance to be a star!

"He had borrowed the car from the pit area, been turned back from one track entrance, driven to the pit apron and thence onto the track past three incredulous policeman. Down the straight and through the Esses he went, then round Suttons, just as Moffat (the race leader) arrived on the scene. Fortunately the 'Lone Stranger' kept hard to the left and Moffat just squeezed between him and Fanning's Escort. It was so close!

"Then the Pacer hit the Shell Dogleg, nearly lost it, scrambled through BP and decided he'd had enough, pulling up at the Rothmans Tower to be greeted by an almost hysterical Allan Horsley (track promoter), who hauled him bodily out and flung him into the arms of a nearby cop! Moffat said latter he didn't even see the Pacer!" :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Apologies to Ray if this story has been told in TNF before. I'm sure that Ray was there that day and may even have a photo of said Pacer to post here. :wave:

#131 dretceterini

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 19:30

How about Subaru 360s playing soccer with a ball about 5 feet in diameter? :lol:

There was also one year at the Mille Miglia where there was a class for cars up to 250cc..

#132 917

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 22:38

It must have been in 1955 that an Iso Isetta competed in the Mille Miglia with an average of about 80 kph - quite impressing for a car with a top speed of about 100 kph (the winning SLR of Moss/Jenkinson was "only" twice as fast).

#133 Falcadore

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 02:39

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Bluebirds preceded the arrival of MRA by a decade or more, I think you'll find....

Anyway, I checked sources this time, just to be sure, but bear in mind I've written stories about the cars competing in these races over the past few months so it was all fairly fresh stuff to me....

RCN doesn't actually give grid positions for 1967, but intimates that the Fords had the front row to themselves. Problem is that RCN covered each class separately. So I checked Tuckey's book and there it says: "The three works Fords were fastest in practice, followed by the two Mildren Alfas..."

The photos of the start support this, with four Fords ahead within a hundred yards of the start...

1968 is quite clear, however, Tuckey quotes the exact words of RCN ... that five Monaros and three Fords started in the first eight grid spots. The times tell a worse story, for while the race laps of the 67 race are 3:03 for the Fords, Bartlett is mentioned in RCN as having done 3:03.5 in practice...

Lap times for the Monaros in practice for 1968 are down in 2:56s and 2:57s while no practice times are mentioned for the Alfas. Their best race laps, though, are still in 3:03s...

Sorry, the Alfas might have had a chance in '67, but they were outclassed in '68.

So the trivia quiz needs a bomb under it, doesn't it?



1967 Bathurst 500 Grid:
'Pole Geoghegan/Geoghegan (Ford Falcon XR GT) 3:03.0
' 2nd Firth/Gibson (Ford Falcon XR GT) 3:03.2
' 3rd Bartlett/Stewart (Alfa Romeo 1600 GTV) 3:03.5
'4th Chivas/Stewart (Alfa Romeo 1600 GTV) 3:05.2
' 5th Jane/Martin (Ford Falcon XR GT) 3:05.2
'6th Hawkins/Fisher (Alfa Romeo 1600 GTV) 3:05.7
' 7th Beasley/West (Ford Falcon XR GT) 3:06.0
' 8th Savva/Wilkinson (Ford Falcon XR GT) 3:06.8
'9th Cusack/Brown (Ford Falcon XR GT)
' 10th Weldon/Hall (Studebaker Lark)
'11th Hopkirk/Foley (Morris Cooper S)
' 12th Makinen/French (Morris Cooper S)
' 13th Stacey/McIntyre (Ford Falcon XR GT)
'14th Fall/Holden (Morris Cooper S)
' 15th Smith/Seton (Morris Cooper S)

Big Rev Kev did put a Bertone on the front row after all. And based on Tuckey's telling of the race, they should have won. While the Falcons roard away at the start they at no point were able to drop the Mildren prepared Alfas. Until wheel problems struck. As Tuckey describes it, the paint around the wheels studs flecked and allowed the nuts to work loose. At the time Bartlett was fourth when he stopped with the problem, Chivas was second when he stopped, which then put Hawkins into second behind the Geoghegans. And this was before the first hour was complete. After 80 minutes Hawkins took the lead. Ten minute later and Chivas made it one-two. And the Ford factorty team was under sever pressure from Greg Cusack in a dealer entered Falcon. By all indications of the first two hours of the race the facotry Ford effort should never have made the podium, let alone score a 1-2. But a 1-2 finish they did have, and while the Geoghegans received the chequer, the lap scorers gave the win to Gibson and Firth. Hawkins was stopped by a ruptured radiator and the surviving Alfas finished third and fourth, on the same lap as the factory Falcons. And with no pace car to stage manage the finish. Surely the closest Bathurst in real terms of them all.

I've always wondered how Australian racing might have evolved had the Alfas not had wheel problems and proceeded to hand the Fords their heads.





Can't believe I've missed this thread until now.....

#134 Falcadore

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 03:45

Bathurst, being Bathurst, is full of tales of the strange, the maligned, the misunderstood and things obviously misplaced.

Although some of the strangest came fromt he Phillip ISland era of the race. That original 1960 grid is worth printing in it's entiriety. They gridded up in class order, then by car number IIRC. So 'Pole Position' went to the only Class E car in the entry, which meant.... oh you're kidding.

The already not young Murray Carter held the first 'Bathurst' pole position. Murray still races today in a Chevvy Corvette C5 in Nations Cup sports car racing against Diablos, 360 Modenas, Monaro 427s, Trofeos, 996 GT3s and Viper ACRs. I think he must be aiming to be the first 75 year old to hold an open CAMS competition licence. In that field though the Corvette isn't to far removed from that first big Cusso.

Class E
Murray Carter / Ray Gibbs (Ford Customline)

Class D
Norm Beechey / Jim McKeown / Jack French (Standard Vanguard) :p
Bob Jane / Lou Molina (Ford Falcon XK)
John Roxburgh / Frank Coad (Vauxhall Cresta)
Fred Sutherland / Bill Graetz (Humber Super Snipe) - !!!
John Youl / Gavin Youl (Mercedes 220SE)
Ron Phillip / Ernie Seeliger (Ford Falcon XK)

Class C
Geoff Russell / David Anderson / Tony Loxton (Peugeot 403)
George Spanos / Leo Taylor / JT Smith (Austin Lancer) - snigger
Barry Gurdon / CW Miller / F Porter (Austin Lancer)
Peter Manton / Barry Topen (Morris Major)
Bob Holden / Ken Brigden / Laurie Graham (Peugeot 403)
Brian Muir / Jim Smith (Morris Major)
Rod Murphy / John Calloway (Morris Major)
Harry Firth / John Reaburn (Singer Gazelle) - oh dear
Ron Lilley / Jim Gullan (Peugeot 403)
Brian Foley / Alan Edney (Austin Lancer)
Bill Clemens / Don Dunoon (Hillman Minx) - oh my...
Charlie Smith (Morris Major)

Class B
Eddie Perkins / George Reynolds (VW 1200 Beetle)
Bob Brown / Michael Lempriere (Simca Aronde) - go the Matra!
Jack Nougher / Lionel Marsh (Simca Aronde)
Murray Galt / Bill Murray / Doug Stewart (Simca Aronde)
Ern Abbott / Jack Maurer (Triumph Herald)
Max McPherson / Ken Orman (VW 1200 Beetle)
David McKay / Greg Cusack (VW 1200 Beetle)
Arthur Wylie / Ken Wylie (VW 1200 Beetle)
Bill Nalder / John Amp (Ford Anglia)
Jim Leighton / Alan Ling (Renault Dauphine)
Des West / Ian Geoghegan (Renault Dauphine)
Bill Pitt / Leo Geoghegan (Renault Dauphine)
Ray Christie / George Hughes (Simca Aronde)
Jack Murray / W Murison (Simca Aronde)
Graham Hoinville / Austin Miller (Triumph Herald)

Class A
Doug Whiteford / Lex Davison / John Sawyer (NSU Prinz) - teeheehee
Bruce Walton / Paul England (NSU Prinz)
Hoot Gibson / J Gorman (NSU Prinz)
Peter Candy / Graham Levingston (Lloyd Alexander TS) - :D hahah lol!
John Connolly / Bill March (Renault 750)
Wal Gillespie / Lou Sinclair (FIAT 600) - this just gets better
Kevin Lott / G Pretty (Lloyd Alexander TS)
Brian Pyers / Frank Elkins (FIAT 600)
R Slaney / G White (Lloyd Alexander TS)
Les Park / J Fleming (Renault 750)
Tony Theiler / Frank Kilfoyle (Lloyd Alexander TS)
Rex Emmett / A Hawkins (Renault 750)

There are some fairly big names in some fairly ordinary cars there. Can you imagine the similar concept today. Mark Skaife in a Daewoo Lanos, John Bowe in a Suzuki Wagon R........

As history went on to record the race was won by Coad and Roxburgh in the big Vauxhall. While a finishing wasn't really established until years later, becuase the results were issued class by class and no outright result was ever declared official.

The Russell led Peugeot was second, and by a smaller gap than the gap between the two classes being started back at the beginning of the race, which would lead to an appeal decades later which led the CAMS acknowledgin in the manual the the Peugeot actualy completed the race in a shorter time.

Third was the Simca Aronde of Galt, Murray and Stewart with the top ten finishers being Morris Major, Austin Lancer, Simca Aronde, the Vanguard, Peugeot 403, Morris Major and Simce Aronde.

Class A was won by Lex Davison (dare I say of course?) and Doug Whiteford in their NSU. The two Australian Grand Prix winners were 14 laps down in 23rd position. The lap times were a bit slower than what a Cooper Maserati or a Lago Tablot might have achieved though :p

Class B was taken by the third outright Simce Aronde.

Class C by the second placed Peugeot.

Class D by the outright winning Vauxhall.

and Class E did have it's only car finish, the Cusso completeing 154 of 167 laps in 21st position. Less than two minutes in front of Lex Davison in the NSU......

#135 Falcadore

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 04:28

Chris Heyer's Audi 5+5 was only the last in a line of strange entries logged under Heyer's name. The Audi was first entered in 1982 after Heyer's last car burnt to the waterline. The Audi raced '82 & '83 before being converted to Group A trim for '84 and '85.

The burnt car was a VW Golf which had gotten Heyer more than a little attention over six years he took it to the hill. Quite competitive when it first appeared in 1976, he had workd driver Rudi Dahlhauser to assist in '77 & '78 attacks. By '81 the car had become a pointless exercise, but each year the ARDC granted it an entry.

A Passat precede the Golf in '75, but Heyer's first Bathurts mount was stranger even than the Audi. A 1.3 litre Subaru GSR. The only Subaru to ever grace the Bathurst 1000. The Subi finished sixth in class in 23rd position, starting a tradition of oddball vehicles called Heyer......

#136 Paul Newby

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 08:45

Mark

It really was a lost opportunity for Alfa Romeo and their Sprint GT Veloce (to give their correct name) at Bathurst in 1967. Yhey had gun drivers (especially Paul Hawkins) and their relative sophistication meant they would've been easy on brakes and tyres as well as economical. Just think that the 1750 GT Veloce which followed in'68 had a more flexible engine, smaller but wider wheels and better brakes. They also had a rear anti-roll bar which was a retrogard step for racing. They also managed to homologate a extra large fuel tank (I saw one recently in one of the road 1750s that Mildren built up but never raced.) I'm surprised the 1750s weren't quicker in 68, but Ray is right, the V8 competition had moved on. After the 1969 debacle when two of the GTVs were involved in Bill Brown's first lap rollover on top of the mountain there weren't any GTvs at the Baturst enduro until 1972. I've owned a 105 GTV for years and they are a delightful machine with bullet proof mechanicals.

While we are on Alfas, probably our most famous Alfa rcer, the Mildren Giulia Ti Super that won the Sandown 500 in 65 and 66 in the hands of Gardner and Bartlett was recently sold to Japan for a paltry $35K - a crying shame :cry: I believe some interested parties tried to place a heritage order on this Alfa but to no avail.

You mention Chris Heyer and I do recall that his Golf GTI was pretty rapid at Bathurst on occasion. There is a photo of Heyer's Subara 1400GSR that ran in 73 in Bill Tuckey's The Great Race. Did you know that Heyer is the Dealer Principal of Penrith Subaru - he has come full circle! In the 70's Subaru was a joke even though their original FF1 (circa 1970) car was quite advanced for its day; alloy flat four engine and pillarless doors just like they do now. I bet none of the WRX boys have any idea of Subaru's heritage!

One of my Alfa owning friend (I sold him an Alfa and we are still talking) actually raced in the original Armstrong 500. I believe he was the third driver in one of the Renault 4CV 750s using a non de plume so his parent didn't find out. Apparently they were pretty slow in practice (compared to the other 750's) and went back to Melbourne to undertake some illegal tweaks, only then were they on the money. By '61 some of the manufacturers / impoters became involved and the bar was raised - my fiend never raced in a 500 again. I must find out the assumed name my friend Tony used and clarify some details - its an amusing anecdote.

#137 275 GTB-4

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 12:33

Originally posted by Vitesse2
I've always found it rather difficult to believe that Jack Sears won the first British Saloon Car Championship in an Austin A105 Westminster ... :eek:


Didn't they have an engine similar to that later used in the MGC?

Didn't the Alfas have Gold Painted wheels and unfortunately someone forgot to mask the tapers which centre the wheels and allow the corresponding taper on the nuts to adequately fix the wheel ?

Didn't an Isuzu Bellet surprise a few people at Bathurst one year?

But what I would really like to know is whether a Rover 90 or 105 was ever campaigned (anywhere!!!). Built like a tank with double skinned guards etc

#138 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 April 2003 - 09:43

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
Didn't they have an engine similar to that later used in the MGC?

Didn't the Alfas have Gold Painted wheels and unfortunately someone forgot to mask the tapers which centre the wheels and allow the corresponding taper on the nuts to adequately fix the wheel ?

Didn't an Isuzu Bellet surprise a few people at Bathurst one year?


Last (Bellet) first... yes, I think so. Colin Bond, perhaps?

I don't for one minute believe the paint story with the Alfas. Those nuts are cranked on nice and tight, they take care of the paint as they're first tightened!

Now, the A95 engine and the MGC/Austin 3-litre De Luxe engine...

I've not seen the latter, but some who have say it's actually a 7-main bearing version of the Austin Freeway engine, enlarged to 3-litres. I don't believe it could be, but all accounts about its reliability suggest that it may well be true.

The C-Series 4-main bearing engine of the Isis, 6/90, A90 Six, A95, A105, Morris Marshal, Austin Healey 100/6 (is that all of them?) was 2639cc, had bolt-clamped little ends, angle-split big ends and a few other things the later 2913 (?) cc engine had. Oh, that's right, there was a Riley 2.6 as well... in the Pathfinder body.

The later engine had fully floating gudgeon pins, and in the A99, 6/99 and first series 3-litre Princess Vanden Plas had the same head (perhaps bigger valves?) as the earlier engine. Then, about when the A110, 6/110 and correspondingly updated Princess came out, there was a larger diameter log manifold cast into the side of the head.

The Austin Healey 3000 had the 12-port head that was made specifically for it, though it's possible some were sold with the log manifold.

#139 Falcadore

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Posted 21 April 2003 - 12:00

I remember a Mazda 626 raced in the 1982 round of the ATCC. Where on earth did THAT car get a sporting heritage?

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#140 275 GTB-4

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Posted 21 April 2003 - 12:07

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Last (Bellet) first... yes, I think so. Colin Bond, perhaps?

Wasn't it the Bellet GT with those god-awful bullet mirrors on the wings!! :rotfl:

I don't for one minute believe the paint story with the Alfas. Those nuts are cranked on nice and tight, they take care of the paint as they're first tightened!

Sounds possible to me, especially if the wheels had been sprayed lots and allowed to cure

Now, the A95 engine and the MGC/Austin 3-litre De Luxe engine...

I've not seen the latter, but some who have say it's actually a 7-main bearing version of the Austin Freeway engine, enlarged to 3-litres. I don't believe it could be, but all accounts about its reliability suggest that it may well be true.

The C-Series 4-main bearing engine of the Isis, 6/90, A90 Six, A95, A105, Morris Marshal, Austin Healey 100/6 (is that all of them?) was 2639cc, had bolt-clamped little ends, angle-split big ends and a few other things the later 2913 (?) cc engine had. Oh, that's right, there was a Riley 2.6 as well... in the Pathfinder body.

The later engine had fully floating gudgeon pins, and in the A99, 6/99 and first series 3-litre Princess Vanden Plas had the same head (perhaps bigger valves?) as the earlier engine. Then, about when the A110, 6/110 and correspondingly updated Princess came out, there was a larger diameter log manifold cast into the side of the head.

Keep this up Raymond and you will be awarded "Anorak of the Year" - thanks for the detail - I have passed it on to a friend with a C for perusal. :cat:

The Austin Healey 3000 had the 12-port head that was made specifically for it, though it's possible some were sold with the log manifold.



#141 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 April 2003 - 14:40

Bellet GTs weren't a part of Bathurst at all... there were only ever a few GTs in Australia and that wasn't what Bathurst was all about.

#142 Frank S

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Posted 21 April 2003 - 16:05

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4

Didn't an Isuzu Bellet surprise a few people at Bathurst one year?




Pete Brock (California-Lotus XI-Shelby-BRE Datsuns; that Pete Brock) ran a couple of Bellets at Riverside, and perhaps other venues. They were well turned-out, of course, and considerably quicker than was expected. I don't know how long was their life, but they did impress.

Frank S

.

#143 Bruce Moxon

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 09:17

Originally posted by Falcadore
I remember a Mazda 626 raced in the 1982 round of the ATCC. Where on earth did THAT car get a sporting heritage?


Ding-a-ling.

Mark, that rings a bell. Was it Rob Worthington?

And another one - what about Ron Dickson's Kingswood in about 1970 or 71?


Bruce Moxon

#144 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 09:44

I don't think Ron Dickson ran a Kingswood...

He did race an HQ Monaro GTS350.

#145 ian senior

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 10:21

Seem to remember something about David Hobbs racing a Morris Oxford at the start of his career. Sounds wonderful - about as unlikely as you will ever get. . Anyone got any pictures?

#146 Falcadore

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 10:46

Originally posted by Bruce Moxon


Ding-a-ling.

Mark, that rings a bell. Was it Rob Worthington?

And another one - what about Ron Dickson's Kingswood in about 1970 or 71?


Bruce Moxon


Bruce,
I think so. I believe that car may have been built by Murray Coote for Worthington for rallying purposes and the ATCC expedition was a shakedown. Have to be the wierdest shakedown I've ever heard of. A quick flick of records indicates 1983 Lakeside as the time and place.

I'm not sure of it's rally career but perhaps there's an oddjob for you Ray. Maybe not :p

Ron Dickson? or do you mean Malcolm Ramsay's highly effective but seldom seen Improved Tourer? I'm struggling to remember Dickson in a Kingswood. I remember of course the Falcon and Torana Pioneer cars having an ear for such things.

#147 Bruce Moxon

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 11:11

No, it was a black car, so not Malcolm Ramsay. Ray, you must be right about it being a Monaro.

I think rallying a 626 is almost as nuts as racing one! Could be worse I suppose - a 121L? Or a 929?


Bruce Moxon

#148 Falcadore

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 11:41

808 Wagon? Actually that car got in quite a bit of trouble the other weekend. Trouble which apparently was manufactured for it well in advance.......

#149 Frank de Jong

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 16:16

Originally posted by Bruce Moxon
I think rallying a 626 is almost as nuts as racing one! Could be worse I suppose - a 121L? Or a 929?
Bruce Moxon


Bruce, Bruce... look at this one:
http://members.ams.c.../Mazda 929 1986
It wasn't bad at all for a 1986 privateer car. But the M3 made it rather obsolete a year later.

#150 mickj

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Posted 23 April 2003 - 04:30

A 4 door Kingswood automatic raced at Sandown around 1970, (it wasn't Malcolm Ramsay). It was sponsored by a Sydney Holden dealer, Muirs, Suttons ?. I cannot remember who drove it. Oh for a programme.