32 replies to this topic

[William Hunt]

What would have happened if Gilles Villeneuve hadn't lost his life at zolder and Didier Pironi his dreafull Hockenheim crash never happened in '82 ? Who would have won the title ? What would their carreer look like after '82 ? Would any of them win a title ? Would they still be able to race together in '83 after their Imola clash ?

My personal feeling is that Didier Pironi would have won the 1982 World Championship without his crash with Prost's Renault in Germany.

[D. Heimgartner]

And what would have happened if Joe Montana had not been injured in 1986 in the game vs. the G_MEN?

[stevew]

I don't know if Gilles would have won the championship, but I think he would have beat Pironi.

[D. Heimgartner]

But stevew: what about Joe? What about Joe?

[stevew]

Originally posted by D. Heimgartner
But stevew: what about Joe? What about Joe?

Forgot about Joe

[dmj]

Pironi would be champion, Villeneuve second, just like with Jody in 1979: Gilles was never constant enough to be a World champion. Didier was.

[wati]

Originally posted by dmj
Pironi would be champion, Villeneuve second, just like with Jody in 1979: Gilles was never constant enough to be a World champion. Didier was.

Yeah, gotta agree.

Wattie

[ozzy.g]

Originally posted by dmj
Pironi would be champion, Villeneuve second, just like with Jody in 1979: Gilles was never constant enough to be a World champion. Didier was.

I can't agree. Gilles was different as a driver and was mature to win the championship and that was the goal at Ferrari. Everything was planned, also Imola. He would have win that championship very easily as after that race Ferrari was the best car by far.
Then it happened what everyone here knows, but nothing was like 1979.
Pironi could not beat him on the track. No way.
After Didier realised what he had done (I am not saying that he must be blamed for what happened to Gilles, only that he understood his own role about), he totally changed his way to drive. He seemed Gilles. Gilles' ghost was driving at his place. Hockenheim docet.
A sad end for a wonderful story between two friends.

[Collombin]

Gilles was a level above Pironi throughout their Ferrari careers (including in 1982), which leads me to the conclusion that Gilles would have won the championship that year.

After Imola, Gilles was adamant that the two could not be teammates in 1983, but over time the rift may have healed and Gilles may have revised his opinion - sadly we will never know.

Both were good enough to win a world championship.

[brooster51]

I think what we can say, with some confidence, is that Rosberg wouldn't have been champion.

I tend to support the notion that Pironi would have won out. GV may have been a superior driver in strictly terms of raw driving skill, but DP may have had more strategic sense. No basis, just instinct. I think that DP was underrated in general (when your teammate was GV in a Ferrari and JL in Ligier how could you rate) and after Imola/Zolder had a black cloud over his head that make him hard to evaluate objectively. I think DP's time at Tyrrell, Ligier, and then Ferrari probably did make him somewhat more mature (remember I'm saying relative to GV) and hence more likely to make the points and finishes necessary to be WDC that year.

The whole thing was just sad.

[D-Type]

In 1979 Gilles was relatively new to formula 1. He had raw speed but he did not have the maturity to know when to ease off. By 1982 he had matured and did know. I do not believe that Pironi could have beaten the 1982 Gilles in a straight race and after Imola I don't think Gilles would have given him the chance. As for 1983 and beyond: who knows . . .

[David M. Kane]

People like Didier don't have friends...

[Ralliart]

My feeling is that Villeneuve would have won the championship. Also that by no means would the rift have been repaired and that he, Villeneuve, would've only remained with Ferrari if Pironi was shown the door. There was also the fact that Villeneuve wasn't invited to Pironi's wedding - which Joann Villeneuve foudn odd and, in fact, she had always warned her husband that there was something about Pironi that she couldn't articulate - about trust. After it was known that Scheckter was leaving, Villeneuve said that he hoped his new teammate would be Prost so it's not unrealistic to think that, after Prost wa shown the door by Renault at the end of '83, that, he might've joined Villeneuve for the '84 season. Perhaps, given Ferrari's lack of complete support for him after Imola, Villeneuve would've done what Lauda did in '77 - win the title and then leave for another team after '82. There was that episode, at one race, where Villeneuve and someone from Williams played a joke and, via pit boards, posted and re-posted, in abbreviated form, the price tag - what Villenuve wanted and what Williams was prepared to pay. Villeneuve and Rosberg had total respect for each other, having raced each other often in F1 and other formulae, so it would've been a super team.

[jj2728]

Originally posted by D-Type
In 1979 Gilles was relatively new to formula 1. He had raw speed but he did not have the maturity to know when to ease off.

totally disagree...having seen him on track from 77 onwards, he showed levels of maturity unseen in today's f1 driver by simply letting scheckter win the WDC in 1979. what he did at watkins glen that year in atrocious conditions defy any description. his 2 drives at monaco and jarama in 81 were superb for sublime car control in a car that he labelled a "shitbox".
1982?....had he lived, the WDC would have been his no doubt.

[FerrariV12]

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Villeneuve was in talks with McLaren for 1983, or there was some sort of link?

Bearing in mind what McLaren achieved 1984-1991....well I guess F1 is 'if' spelt backwards.

[ensign14]

I think Villeneuve would have won, cos in that '82 season 4 wins = 36 points = 3rd place before you even look at minor placings. Difficult to see that Pironi would have won any races that Gilles would have finished...

[ozzy.g]

Originally posted by D-Type
In 1979 Gilles was relatively new to formula 1. He had raw speed but he did not have the maturity to know when to ease off.

I have to disagree too. Like jj2728.

I have (and this idea is growing day by day) the impression that Gilles wanted to lose the 79 WDC. He understood, after some races, that if he had lost the championship, only Jody could have beated him. He knew that 1980 would have been his "true" year.
How can I say? He was doing experiments! Yes, he lost that championship on porpose, from a certain point of view. And he acted like a real teammate. A real professionist in the right time.

When he understood the potential of the 1982 Ferrari, he expected the same thing from Pironi. And Ferrari thought the same.
That's why when I say that Gilles would have been world champion (easily) I include the fact that Gilles won at Imola. I start from Gilles 9, Didier 6. That's how it meant to be.

By the way, I didn't expect such an interest about this when I resumed this thread.
I have to say also that it's not so important who would have won. Pironi was a very good driver too and without Hockenheim...

What make me think a bit, it's that Gilles would have won 82 (easily) and 83 and then who knows, and that everybody would say that he is the best of all times (which is not so true as an expression, because there isn't a driver of all times).
Do we need championships to say that?

In my opinion, Gilles is the best of his time and one of the best 10/12 ever. Not in particular order.

[ozzy.g]

Originally posted by FerrariV12
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Villeneuve was in talks with McLaren for 1983, or there was some sort of link?

Bearing in mind what McLaren achieved 1984-1991....well I guess F1 is 'if' spelt backwards.

Yes. If he had ever left Ferrari, he would have been a McLaren driver.

Imagine the 1982 and 83 champion in the 75 and 77 champion's team...

Ah yes, I seem John Lennon now...

[Twin Window]

A couple of things...

Firstly, this thread is - to my mind at least - a complete waste of electrons.

Secondly, if Enzo Ferrari was in any doubt as to who *should* have won the 1982 World Drivers' Championship, then he wouldn't have presented his own trophy to Gilles' widdow proclaiming her late husband as the 'true World Champion of 1982' (I've had to paraphrase there).

Finally, if Gilles were to have left the Scuderia, it would not have been for a return to McLaren. Villeneueve and Arnoux had talked at length about setting-up their own team using Cosworth engines and the like. This has been documented by at least one well-connected, notable scribe...

Carry on!

[Collombin]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Secondly, if Enzo Ferrari was in any doubt as to who *should* have won the 1982 World Drivers' Championship, then he wouldn't have presented his own trophy to Gilles' widdow proclaiming her late husband as the 'true World Champion of 1982' (I've had to paraphrase there).

I thought it was Didier that received a trophy like that from Enzo?

It wouldn't surprise me if he had two made, actually.......

[man]

I am of the opinion that the Villeneuve/Pironi partnership was potentially one of the if not the most potent in the history of the Maranello team.

Villeneuve's talent has been well documented, but sadly usually at the cost of Didier. Both drivers had the potential to be multiple world champions and could have dominated Grand Prix racing through until the mid to late 1980's.

Its a pitty that the tragic incidents of 82 prevented us from seeing two great drivers, but very different drivers at their peak.

You look at the names that were mixing it for the top positions during the mid-late 1980's. Mansell, Alboreto, Arnoux, Rosberg, Piquet, and Berger. In my mind, The Ferrari duo of 1981/1982 were more capable than all these drivers.

It would have been fantastic to have seen Gilles and Didier mixing it with the likes of Senna and Prost. Who knows, the Senna/Prost cliche would not be what is known for today if Gilles/Didier did not have their accidents. If...if if.....!

[Zoe]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Firstly, this thread is - to my mind at least - a complete waste of electrons.

But it is fun in a way.

Still, this discussion is in vain, because both would have been overshadowed by Stefan Bellof just a few years later

SCNR

Zoe

[Vicuna]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
People like Didier don't have friends...

In that regard, Webber has at least 1 thing in common with Pironi

[ozzy.g]

Originally posted by Twin Window
A couple of things...

Firstly, this thread is - to my mind at least - a complete waste of electrons.

Well, I have explained more or less the same thing with very different words...

Originally posted by Twin Window
A couple of things...

Finally, if Gilles were to have left the Scuderia, it would not have been for a return to McLaren. Villeneueve and Arnoux had talked at length about setting-up their own team using Cosworth engines and the like. This has been documented by at least one well-connected, notable scribe...

This story doesn't convince me at all. Even now.
True, Gilles wanted his own team and everything seemd ok. But, at least from what I know, things went wrong because the investors were not TRUE investors at all.
There should be something about this in his biography by Donaldson.
On the contrary, I found this story in an Italian book. If I have time, I'll post it.

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Secondly, if Enzo Ferrari was in any doubt as to who *should* have won the 1982 World Drivers' Championship, then he wouldn't have presented his own trophy to Gilles' widdow proclaiming her late husband as the 'true World Champion of 1982' (I've had to paraphrase there).

No, this trophy (a black cavallino on a marble base) was presented by Enzo Ferrari and given by Piero Lardi Ferrari to Didier Pironi in October 1982. The phrase was a Didier, vero Campione Mondiale 1982 (= to Didier, true World Champion 1982).
Autosprint #44/1982 has a great photo on the cover.

Surely Ferrari made something for Johann Villeneuve, but it was something else.

Ciao,
Guido

[Twin Window]

Yep, you're quite right - I got my brain in a complete handbrake turn on that one...

Regarding those two drivers, it's interesting to note that everybody has mentioned the 1982 season but nobody's said anything about their first year together in 1981.

Pironi couldn't hold a candle to Villeneuve that first season they were together; I don't think he outqualified him once, never mind win races.

Originally posted by irvine99

Thanks Guido, for correcting another Villeneuve fable...

A mistake on my part, pal, not a fable.

Big difference.

[mikedeering]

My heart says Gilles and my head says Pironi for 1982 World Champion. Had Villeneuve learnt anything about the championship by that time? Look at his performance in Rio that year - vintage Gilles stuff, spinning out of the lead on tires way past their best rather than pitting. For Pironi the championship was all and I suspect he would have stopped at nothing to win it that season.

As for 1983 and beyond, it depends whether this "what if" scenario includes Imola or not. Clearly after that race Gilles was angry at Pironi, but more so Piccinini. I don't believe he would have stayed beyond that year as a result, but then time heals all wounds, so maybe the Imola problems would have been resolved. If not Ferrari though I have no idea where he might have gone!

[gdecarli]

I don't know who could have been 1982 world champion. For sure not me ;) maybe Gilles Villeneuve, maybe Didier Pironi.
But I think Ferrari called Pironi the "true champion" because he nearly won the title. Final standing was:

• Rosberg 44 points - 15 races - 2.933 points/race
• Pironi 39 points - 10 races - 3.900 points/race
  Watson 39 point - 15 races - 2.600 points/race

After French GP (the last one raced by Pironi), standing was:

• Pironi 39
• Watson 30
• Prost 25
• Lauda 24
• Rosberg 23
• Patrese 19
• Piquet 17

Pironi was in pole position at Hockenheim and the race was won by his team mate Tambay. Then Ferrari was in pole again at Monza and Tambay and Andretti were 2nd and 3rd. So I think Pironi could easily scored the missing 5 points for winning the championship.

As regards Villeneuve, facts are differents. Before Imola, Pironi was 6th in Brazil and Villeneuve 3rd at Long Beach, but squalified because of the irregular rear wing. So Ferrari had only 1 point, while Renault had 22 and McLaren 20. Then Imola and all what happened. Then he died. So all considerations about his possible win are only IF... IF... IF... Maybe he could have won, maybe not, I can't say, too difficult!

Ciao,
Guido

[Henri Greuter]

As much as I like GV, I tend to believe that if there had been Ferrari champ that year it would have been Pironi.
OK, it was still very early in the season but the manner in which Gilles drove at Brazil (spunning off in the lead) indicates to me that he was yet again too late in slowing down a bit and maximize the result instead of chllenging for the maximum: winning. And there were a few races in 1982 when Ferrari couldn't win but Didier maximised the result and bringing the car home high in the points.
Somehow I still hae my doubts if Gilles would have been willing to do so if it helped him to score podium finishes good enough tot take the title at the end of the year.
Didier was more of a tactic driver, maybe his long distance racing experience (may well have beenof help with that)


Then again, he ate Pironi alive in '81, who knows it might have been possible too in '82.

Sadly, we'll never know.


Henri

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by Twin Window
A couple of things...

Finally, if Gilles were to have left the Scuderia, it would not have been for a return to McLaren. Villeneueve and Arnoux had talked at length about setting-up their own team using Cosworth engines and the like. This has been documented by at least one well-connected, notable scribe...

Carry on!

What puzzles me within this statement is the fact that as from 1983 on two drivers who were familiar with turbocharged engines and knew the way of the future from personal experience would go back to Cossies!!!
Would Gilles be that stupid?






Henri

[Wolf]

Henri, maybe it's question whether they thought turbocharged engines were affordable at that time... And indeed, not being terribly familiar with the period- were there any available? Ferrari and renault started it, but I doubt they'd have solt them the engines (were BMW already in F1 by that time)?

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by Wolf
Henri, maybe it's question whether they thought turbocharged engines were affordable at that time... And indeed, not being terribly familiar with the period- were there any available? Ferrari and renault started it, but I doubt they'd have solt them the engines (were BMW already in F1 by that time)?

In 1982 the only torbocharged engones on the grid were Renault, Ferrari, BMW and Hart.
But for 1993 TAG-Porsche and Honda were expected, so was Alfa Romeo too while BMW added ATS as a customer engine and Renault did the same for Lotus. Now Arnoux was fired from Renault so that engine was highly unlikely to obtain anymore. TAG was McLaren exclusive, Ferrair for themselves....
indeed, availability was something else but any engine builder approached with the thought of Villeneuve using their engine was stupid if turning down that suggestion instantly. He had such an experience with such engine that he was quite an asset for every engine company to have among their drivers, not mentioning his popularity.
But still settling for Cosworths?
That said, remembering Rosberg with the Williams Ford cosworth and then have Villeneuve in a car of similar strength?
Hmmmm.


Henri

[ghinzani]

What puzzles me within this statement is the fact that as from 1983 on two drivers who were familiar with turbocharged engines and knew the way of the future from personal experience would go back to Cossies!!!
Would Gilles be that stupid?






Henri

Still puzzles me too - why would they have run DFVs when the writing was on the wall? and who would have designed a car out of the top designers only to have a Cosworth in back?