29 replies to this topic

[VDP]

R Seaman was invited for a trial at the Nurburgring with among other drivers according to
von Frankenberg book, but who were the others drivers and which one died in a crash ?

Robert

[FEV]

The other driver that I know was there and later lost his life in racing is Swiss Christian Kautz, Seaman's friend. Of the 26 drivers who were tested that day by Neubauer, 24 were German and two only foreigners - they were Seaman and Kautz and they set the best times, the only one to break the 11 minute mark. Kautz died in the second lap of the 1948 "Grand Prix de Suisse et d'Europe" in Berne. I think Leif's Golden Era site as the detail of these Daimler-Benz trials.

[FEV]

Johann Wolf died during the trials.

[Ray Bell]

Or is that Neubauer legend too?

Was invited to the tests because he'd roar away after work each day on his motorcycle from under 'Don Alfredo's' window?

[Vitesse2]

Zehender was also at the test, according to Nixon

[Ray Bell]

Only Kautz is mentioned... by Neubauer

[Vitesse2]

Oops I have transgressed Hans Etzrodt's first law!!

"Shooting Star", page 67, quoting Uhlenhaut

[ry6]

As a matter of interest - I was told by TP Cholmondely Tapper that he was invited for a trial with Mercedes team in October 1936 at Monza.

He and travelling companion Johnny Wakefield (a competent race driver of the day) were delayed on route and arrived late, so late that the Merc team had packed up and gone home!

[Ray Bell]

Neubauer writes:

"In the next four or five days there were plenty of casualties of this kind, though only the cars were seriously affected. the mechanics had to work overtime to keep them on the road. And one by one the drivers found their dreams of fame and fortune shattered by a simple sports car on the Nurburgring. In the end only ten were left, and I set about testing them in real racing cars."

So it seems that they missed more than just one bus... though the exact duration of the final test is not mentioned, he does say:

"And so it went on. the course was scheduled to last two weeks, but after the first week most of the remaing ten candidates had either failed or given up."

It must have been a serious business, however, as he concludes:

"That 1936 experiment was, on the whole, a disaster. One of the candidates had been killed. the total cost was around half a million marks. Or sole consolation was that we found one driver of world-class: Dick Seaman."

[William Hunt]

Can anyone help us to try and find out or even make a list of which 26 drivers wered invited in which drivers made it to the final 10 ?

[MPea3]

a bit out of topic, but still a seaman question.

i've read in books of a memorial at club corner at spa for seaman. i assume that it had to be either removed or moved with changes to the course, but does anyone know if it's still there?

also, is the hollowell memorial still there on the run from masta down to stavelot?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by ry6
As a matter of interest - I was told by TP Cholmondely Tapper that he was invited for a trial with Mercedes team in October 1936 at Monza.

He and travelling companion Johnny Wakefield (a competent race driver of the day) were delayed on route and arrived late, so late that the Merc team had packed up and gone home!

Sorry, Rob, I didn't notice you'd put 'Monza' in there... obviously a different test altogether.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by ry6
As a matter of interest - I was told by TP Cholmondely Tapper that he was invited for a trial with Mercedes team in October 1936 at Monza.

He and travelling companion Johnny Wakefield (a competent race driver of the day) were delayed on route and arrived late, so late that the Merc team had packed up and gone home!

Christopher Hilton ("Hitler's Grands Prix in England" p23) says Cholmondeley-Tapper was also offered a test by Auto Union in 1936 but preferred to go skiing instead.

The Monza test was actually in November, and Seaman was also present, having left London on Nov 20th (Nixon op cit).

[LittleChris]

Originally posted by MPea3
a bit out of topic, but still a seaman question.

i've read in books of a memorial at club corner at spa for seaman. i assume that it had to be either removed or moved with changes to the course, but does anyone know if it's still there?

also, is the hollowell memorial still there on the run from masta down to stavelot?

The Seaman memorial disappeared when they built the F1 pits on the run from Clubhouse to La Source. I don't think anyone is sure what happened to it. I'm not sure about the memorial to Bill Holowell.

[Steffe Ornerdal]

I just saw a TV-documentary about the mincemeat operation http://en.wikipedia....ation_Mincemeat
A key figure was a mr Cholmondely ("Chumley").
The racing driver?

[Tim Murray]

The racing driver was Thomas Pitt Cholmondeley Tapper, so not the same man:

http://www.findagrav...p...d=62735232

The grave of Thomas Pitt Cholmondeley Tapper in the churchyard of St.John the Baptist Church, Piddington, Oxfordshire.


Photo: wertypop

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Doug Nye]

I just saw a TV-documentary about the mincemeat operation http://en.wikipedia....ation_Mincemeat
A key figure was a mr Cholmondely ("Chumley").
The racing driver?

A racing driver genuinely involved in Operation Mincemeat was St John Horsfall, who drove the hapless derelict Glyndwr Michael's corpse north to the Clyde submarine base at which it was embarked for its appoinment with posterity.

DCN

[Paul Parker]

Christopher Hilton ("Hitler's Grands Prix in England" p23) says Cholmondeley-Tapper was also offered a test by Auto Union in 1936 but preferred to go skiing instead.

The Monza test was actually in November, and Seaman was also present, having left London on Nov 20th (Nixon op cit).

Only 10 years late in adding to your post but I visited said gentleman at his home in Piddington circa 1982. I had picked up an immaculate copy of his book Amateur Racing Driver, the author's foreword being signed off from somewhere in Oxforshire so I phoned directory of enquiries on the offchance that he still lived thereabouts and got the telephone number.

His wife provided tea and sandwiches and 'Tommy' told me that he had been offered a test drive with Auto Union but decided to go skiing instead. They were very gracious, polite and considerate and he was quite surprised that anybody would want his signature in the book. In fact he wrote a short letter for me. If I recall correctly he told me that he had worked for Churchill during the war, something to do with aerodromes. He, or his wife, I cannot remember which one now, also revealed that he had suffered serious head injuries in a plane crash during the war. The inference being that he could no longer fly or race a car thereafter.

Additionally although he was born in New Zealand I also seem to recall him saying something about being of Norwegian origin. I have just now checked online and apparently this is true, but the rest of the conversation has disappeared into the ether of eternity as it were, being over 30 years ago.

A true gentleman.

[Paul Parker]

Only 10 years late in adding to your post but I visited said gentleman at his home in Piddington circa 1982. I had picked up an immaculate copy of his book Amateur Racing Driver, the author's foreword being signed off from somewhere in Oxforshire so I phoned directory of enquiries on the offchance that he still lived thereabouts and got the telephone number.

His wife provided tea and sandwiches and 'Tommy' told me that he had been offered a test drive with Auto Union but decided to go skiing instead. They were very gracious, polite and considerate and he was quite surprised that anybody would want his signature in the book. In fact he wrote a short letter for me. If I recall correctly he told me that he had worked for Churchill during the war, something to do with aerodromes. He, or his wife, I cannot remember which one now, also revealed that he had suffered serious head injuries in a plane crash during the war. The inference being that he could no longer fly or race a car thereafter.

Additionally although he was born in New Zealand I also seem to recall him saying something about being of Norwegian origin. I have just now checked online and apparently this is true, but the rest of the conversation has disappeared into the ether of eternity as it were, being over 30 years ago.

A true gentleman.

Further to the above I helped Christopher Hilton identifying some of the faces in the photographs for his book whilst working for Karl Ludvigsen in the late 1990s and I told him about the Auto Union offer at that time.

[D-Type]

I just saw a TV-documentary about the mincemeat operation http://en.wikipedia....ation_Mincemeat
A key figure was a mr Cholmondely ("Chumley").
The racing driver?

It is highly unlikely that a Mr Cholmondeley and a Mr Cholmondeley Tapper are the same person. They might well be related. The way names work in Britain, the odds are that a Mr Tapper married a Miss Cholmondeley and when they had a son who they coupled the two surnames together and named him Thomas Pitt Cholmondeley Tapper. (Pitt is not a usual forename so it is likely it is the surname of another ancestor).

[David McKinney]

As I'm sure I've pointed out before, his surname was Tapper, though I believe he changed it in later life

He mentions his German team test offer in his book - I actually thought it was with Mercedes but no longer have the book, and could easily be persuaded it was the other lot

Interesting to see him referred to as 'Tommy' - he was apparently known in the family as George

[Steffe Ornerdal]

Thank you all.

I can confirm that "Tapper" means "Brave" in Norwegian/Danish/Swedish. Or more correctly "Brave to the bitter end". Not an unusual name in Scandinavian countries.

[Tim Murray]

The test he mentions in his autobiography was with Mercedes. The transcript by O Volante of the relevant section can be found in post 12 of this thread:

Thomas Pitt Cholmondeley Tapper

There's also a brief summary of his genealogy by Jackie in post 13 - as Duncan surmised, a Miss Cholmondeley did indeed marry a Mr Tapper.

There's no mention of any test for Auto Union in the book, but it's quite possible that they also invited him to test for them.

[Paul Parker]

The test he mentions in his autobiography was with Mercedes. The transcript by O Volante of the relevant section can be found in post 12 of this thread:

Thomas Pitt Cholmondeley Tapper

There's also a brief summary of his genealogy by Jackie in post 13 - as Duncan surmised, a Miss Cholmondeley did indeed marry a Mr Tapper.

There's no mention of any test for Auto Union in the book, but it's quite possible that they also invited him to test for them.

That is precisely what he told me in 1982, I did not imagine it.

[Tim Murray]

Sorry Paul, I worded my post badly. I wasn't in any way trying to cast doubt on your statement. It seems quite logical to me - he was offered tests by both German teams but missed the MB one because he was delayed in Bologna and chose to pass up the AU test in favour of skiing. His book makes clear that he was on the point of retiring from racing at that stage.

[Sharman]

As I'm sure I've pointed out before, his surname was Tapper, though I believe he changed it in later life

He mentions his German team test offer in his book - I actually thought it was with Mercedes but no longer have the book, and could easily be persuaded it was the other lot

Interesting to see him referred to as 'Tommy' - he was apparently known in the family as George

As we discussed David, he was known as George because he called everybody else George. I am still awaiting the invitation to go and advise on the memorabilia, I will casually mention it next time I email the sister

[Paul Parker]

Sorry Paul, I worded my post badly. I wasn't in any way trying to cast doubt on your statement. It seems quite logical to me - he was offered tests by both German teams but missed the MB one because he was delayed in Bologna and chose to pass up the AU test in favour of skiing. His book makes clear that he was on the point of retiring from racing at that stage.

No need to apologise I'm just getting old and cranky.

Anyway for interest I have 'George's' letter from 2nd August 1982 in PDF and jpeg form but cannot figure out how to get it onto the forum.

If somebody could advise me I will post it on here.

[David McKinney]

Same way as posting a photo, Paul

Or you could email it to me and I'll put it up

[David McKinney]

Posted on behalf of Paul Parker

Here is 'George's' note to me dated 2nd August 1982 which has no historical revelations alas, being simply a pleasant acknowledgement of my visit, they were both very kind and modest.

Note that he does indeed sign himself George and then adds that his correct name is Thomas.



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[Paul Parker]

Posted on behalf of Paul Parker

Here is 'George's' note to me dated 2nd August 1982 which has no historical revelations alas, being simply a pleasant acknowledgement of my visit, they were both very kind and modest.

Note that he does indeed sign himself George and then adds that his correct name is Thomas.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Many thanks David for posting this and apologies for my computer incompetence.