40 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Forgive my ignorance, but has this forum ever seen a complete listing of Argentine Temporada international series race dates, entries and results?

DCN

[karlcars]

Good question, Doug. Vicente Alvarez wrote a resume of the Temporada ("season") events some time ago and I think I have his articles. The year in which I have a strong personal interest is 1951.

[Doug Nye]

Karl - I have a stackload of Argentine material which I obtained from the AC Argentino when I visited their offices in BA some years ago. What in particular do you need on 1951? My material is nothing like complete, which is why I wondered if anything had been posted - I tried 'search' for 'Temporada' but it didn't seem to show very much that was directly related in this sense. You have been involved with this Forum thing for some time - aren't there some wonderful contributors connected with it - and, please tell me, how long does it take for the compulsive novelty to wear off??????

Kind regards - DCN

[FEV]

Felix came up with some great info regarding results on the South American races in this thread :
http://www.atlasf1.c...emporada series
Frank

[Vitesse2]

Doug: this thread about the Bari GP, despite its unpromising title to the subject in hand:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=23710

deviates sharply towards the Temporada, and at post number 36 you will find some interesting details! I'm sure Michael will be delighted to send you a copy - he sent me one!

[Doug Nye]

Thank you both for directing me to two magnificent references which it will take me ages to digest. One thing I have noticed is the lengthy debate about Chico Landi's car in the 1951 Italian GP. This is a fascinating subject, because I have a photograph which shows the team cars all lined up in the pitlane, headed by the two new 'Camelli' 375s with their high headrest tails. Tucked into one corner is a battered-bodied 12-plug car with the characteristic even-spaced exhaust primaries of that model - as distinct from the unevenly-spaced primaries of the developed 24-plug types. This car is plainly the same 'muletto' with which Gonzalez won that year's British GP, and so impressed Ascari that the team leader insisted upon the same car for the German GP - and won again. This is the car I believe that was entrusted to Landi - in return for a lot of Brazilian silver - for that GP. The old lady was utterly clapped out, and it gave up the ghost on the opening lap.

The 'Camelli' cars were driven in this race by Ascari and Villoresi, Ascari winning. Ferrari drew the AC Milano's bounty for having run 'new model' cars in their national Grand Prix. These cars were, I believe, chassis numbers '1' and '2' because they were presented as 'the forthcoming year's 1952 models'. Check 'Motor Sport' for its report on the British GP and you'll see that Bill Boddy quoted Gonzalez's winning car chassis serial, I believe from memory, as 'No 2'.

The 'Camelli' cars sold to Rosier and Landi for 1952-53. The Rosier car was later rebodied as a centre-seat sports and sold in New Zealand. In the 1980s it was restored to Monoposto form and - from its NZ road import papers which cited its chassis number as 'No 2' the new owner concluded that this had been the 1951 British GP winning car. My contention that this claim was nonsense and that the car was in fact, in effect, chassis '2/52' triggered a fair-sized explosion. Sadly in restoration somebody had seen fit to replace the worn original chassis plate, and on the replacement the number '2' was engraved (1) in a non-Ferrari form, not stamped in their distinctive large-sized serif numerals. If the old muletto survived at all, I suspect it may have been developed into the distinctive works car used by Ascari in non-Championship F1 races in 1952-53 - taken eventually to Argentina - then part-cannibalised and forgotten. I have always believed this car is likely to have been that which fetched up with Albert Obrist and which was wheeled out for some German World Champion to demonstrate at Silverstone pre-GP last year. Argue with me????

[Doug Nye]

Michael - if you are willing I would be very interested indeed to receive a copy as so helpfully suggested.

DCN

[Vitesse2]

Doug: if you e-mail me direct on

RichardVitesse@aol.com

I'll send it by return! Note that you cannot send attachments via Atlas e-mails.

[fines]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
The 'Camelli' cars sold to Rosier and Landi for 1952-53. The Rosier car was later rebodied as a centre-seat sports and sold in New Zealand. In the 1980s it was restored to Monoposto form and - from its NZ road import papers which cited its chassis number as 'No 2' the new owner concluded that this had been the 1951 British GP winning car. My contention that this claim was nonsense and that the car was in fact, in effect, chassis '2/52' triggered a fair-sized explosion. Sadly in restoration somebody had seen fit to replace the worn original chassis plate, and on the replacement the number '2' was engraved (1) in a non-Ferrari form, not stamped in their distinctive large-sized serif numerals. If the old muletto survived at all, I suspect it may have been developed into the distinctive works car used by Ascari in non-Championship F1 races in 1952-53 - taken eventually to Argentina - then part-cannibalised and forgotten. I have always believed this car is likely to have been that which fetched up with Albert Obrist and which was wheeled out for some German World Champion to demonstrate at Silverstone pre-GP last year. Argue with me????

This has intrigued me for quite some time, since Christian Huet (who is, I believe, responsible for the Rosier/Silverstone-Ferrari connection) is no one to be taken too lightly. I could believe your version of the chassis number being 375-2/52 (after all, Ferrari serial numbers are a complete and utter mess), but then how do you explain chassis number 375-10 for the ThinWall Mk 4? There cannot possibly have been 8 Indianapolis-bodied cars, can there? Wouldn't it be more likely that the "old nail" was fitted with a 24-plug engine and a new "Camelli" body?

[Michael Müller]

No restorer will remove resp. substitute a worn chassis plate of a historic race car, except he knows what he is doing ...

[Doug Nye]

"(after all, Ferrari serial numbers are a complete and utter mess), but then how do you explain chassis number 375-10 for the ThinWall Mk 4? There cannot possibly have been 8 Indianapolis-bodied cars, can there? Wouldn't it be more likely that the "old nail" was fitted with a 24-plug engine and a new "Camelli" body?"
--------------------------------

Re Michael Ferner's lines above - forgive me, but I don't know yet how you chaps produce these bold relevant quotes at the top of a message - are entirely reasonable.

I doubt that I can give a logical explanation of the 'ThinWall' having been shipped as '375-10' - at least not without properly researching the field all over again - but this is unpaid corner, and I have a family with no other means of support, so just bear with me for having chosen an unrewarding profession...and being disinclined to spend ALL my time researching unpaid for TNF; have I yet got a little bit of credit in the goodwill bank here????

Having thus had a bleat, let me explain further on the Ferrari 375 matter.

All aluminium (or magnesium) racing car bodies were hand-made in this period by craftsmen, and fitted to only just completed chassis, in haste, against short deadlines. It was characteristic of the great Italian marques that there was precious little concession to true commonality.

Panels were not speedily - or even slowly - interchangeable between cars. Fittings and fastenings had to line up with mounting points beneath, on a badly welded, variably straight and true, chassis frame. Taking these matters into consideration, while the general outline (silhouette?) of a model such as the Ferrari 375 - or Maserati A6GCM - or Cooper-Bristol, say - might look superficially as if it matches its sisters, look INTO the relevant photos - not just AT them - and tell me what you see. ....

You will see outlines, body panel attachments, rivet lines, body fits etc which do not exactly match between individual cars - as when entered by the factory - and as when entered and run by subsequent private owners. You will see cars with long bonnets, and short scuttles, and then another with a long scuttle and a short bonnet - and you will see variation in tail shapes, even though all will have been offered up perfunctorily to a wooden 'maschiera' I think it was called, or body buck.

If the factory could not sell a used chassis - or (due to its high mileage perhaps, or to it having become a great favourite with certain successful drivers) - then they would sell off its sisters, and continue development on the favoured frame, however old it might be, as long as it was in useable order. Development often involved rebodying as Michael rightly suggests, and there is no doubt that the low-tail 1950-51 cars were almost all (if not all) re-tailed after Monza.

Do not confuse these standard-wheelbase 1950-51 F1 chassis with the 1952 LWB Indy 375s - which had a totally different design, with superstructure framing more like a proper spaceframe than merely a 'braced twin-tube ladder frame'. The models were phsyically different.

The 1951 Peter Whitehead long-chassis Ferrari 125 - I am sure - began life as a works LWB 2-stage supercharged works car - and when it was sold as chassis '114' there were not 113 predecessors, 'cos that was a serial applied by Ferrari for customer sale.

The first Ferrari in Britain - Folland's 166 - was sold to him as a reworked works warhorse, and was ex-Troubetskoy, and from damage to the frame may well have been Nuvolari's mysterious disintegrating works-entered mount in the Mille Miglia, behind owner Troubetskoy's back. He told me he probably thought it was in for servicing!

I could go on, there are many, many such stories in the Ferrari sagas...

All I would recommend is that you should work from the photographic record - Karl for example has magnificent shots from this period -

Victor Pigott and I discussed this matter at great length when he was the single-seater historian for the British Ferrari Owners' Club, and he had the right idea.

Our friend Monsieur Huet is a very effective paperwork researcher. In my experience he knows a great deal about Gordinis - and his Gordini book deserves tremendous praise.

DCN

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Michael Müller
No restorer will remove resp. substitute a worn chassis plate of a historic race car, except he knows what he is doing ...

Michael
Unfortunately chassis plates are often being removed by (idiot) restorers who find they do not match the identity that their (shoddy) research has revealed to them. More than once, I have had to show an owner a photo I took of their car ten or so years ago with its original chassis plate before some (fool) restorer took it off and replaced it with a "correct" one.

I could name names. But I value my kneecaps too much.

Allen

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
and being disinclined to spend ALL my time researching unpaid for TNF; have I yet got a little bit of credit in the goodwill bank here????

Yes, I think we can safely say that...

just use the "Quote" button at the top of the posting.

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Not only 1947-1955 - has anybody some information about the Temporada 1964-65? These races is said to be open for F2-cars and F2 is really of interest for me. You know.

Sorry if I never can get my english right; is/are, says/said, in/on/at etc.

Stefan

[Vitesse2]

Stefan: the Georgano Encyclopaedia says 1964 only (but may mean European winter 1964-5) - four races, "poorly supported", at BA Autodrome, Rosario and Cordoba. All four races won by Silvio Moser. Sorry - nothing more!

[FEV]

Funny, I was going to take advantage of the reviving of the Argentinian threads to ask a question about this ! This week-end, I was looking for a confirmation that the Benedicto Caldarella who was Reutemann's team mate in the ACA team that ran the 1970 European F2 races was the same as the great 60s rider Benedicto 'Chice' Caldarella. This led me to a short bio of 'Chice' saying that he was runner-up in the 1965 F2 Temporada which I was not aware of !
Since then I came across an article at the always interesting automovilsport.com.ar site. My Spanish being as bad as it is I can only say the article looks fascinating ! I seem to understand that the 1964 Temporada was for F.Junior cars (I guess the series was held in January and must have been the very last FJ races since it became F3 in 1964 - same thing happened in 1971 for the January Torneio F3 races in Brasil : still with 1000cc F3 cars when 1600cc cars were officially introduced starting with January 1st). Moser ran on a Brabham and Alberico Passadore lost his life on a Lotus. If some of our Spanish-speaking members want to have a look : http://www.automovil...una-pasion.html
Thanks for the info Richard
Frank

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
forgive me, but I don't know yet how you chaps produce these bold relevant quotes at the top of a message

Rather simple, click the “QUOTE” button in the posting you would like to quote, the answer window will open, and you can delete the unnecessary part of the text.

Originally posted by Doug Nye
look INTO the relevant photos - not just AT them - and tell me what you see. .... All I would recommend is that you should work from the photographic record

That’s exactly the reason I am looking for high-resolution photos, because very often this is the only way to identify individual cars. Over the years you get so familiar with them that when spotting a new photo you welcome an “old friend”.

Originally posted by Doug Nye
The 1951 Peter Whitehead long-chassis Ferrari 125 - I am sure - began life as a works LWB 2-stage supercharged works car

For sure Whitehead’s # 114 was no new car, but I’m not convinced that it was one of the GP49 (125-C-01 or 125-C-02). One GP49 became the TWS #2, the other was converted to tipo 275. The car crashed by Villoresi at Geneva was a 275, but photos show it had a DeDion axle, meaning it probably was the SWB car 125-C-03. The 2nd GP49 LWB car disappeared in the 2nd half of 1950, it was not available for the Penya Rhin Grand Prix, where Chinetti had to use an old 1949 SWB single s/c car.
It may well be that Whitehead’s # 114 was a rebodied 1949 F-series F2 car, of which 1 - or even 2? - had a long wheelbase.

Originally posted by Doug Nye
The first Ferrari in Britain - Folland's 166 - was sold to him as a reworked works warhorse, and was ex-Troubetskoy, and from damage to the frame may well have been Nuvolari's mysterious disintegrating works-entered mount in the Mille Miglia, behind owner Troubetskoy's back.

# 010I was no works car, it was owned by the Scuderia Inter resp. Troubetskoy personally. It was the only Spyder Corsa with a “horseshoe” grille, and therefore for sure Nuvolari’s MM car. Folland bought his car from the Grupo Inter, and I am convinced that it was # 010I, although the front including bonnet was different. It now had a grille similar to the other SCs, but very crudely made (see photo below). The other Inter car - # 006I - also received slightly different bodywork during the winter 1948/49, and this was the 1949 Targa Florio winning car, which then was sold to Bordonaro.

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Michael Unfortunately chassis plates are often being removed by (idiot) restorers who find they do not match the identity that their (shoddy) research has revealed to them. More than once, I have had to show an owner a photo I took of their car ten or so years ago with its original chassis plate before some (fool) restorer took it off and replaced it with a "correct" one. I could name names. But I value my kneecaps too much.
Allen

This is what I said with „except he knows what he is doing ...”.
These people are neither idiots nor is their research shoddy, they simply are members of the GGG!
In order to avoid the standard question of our newcomers, GGG = Gordon Gecko Gang.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
Not only 1947-1955 - has anybody some information about the Temporada 1964-65? These races is said to be open for F2-cars and F2 is really of interest for me. You know.

Sorry if I never can get my english right; is/are, says/said, in/on/at etc.

Stefan

4 races were held early 1964.originally scheduled to be F2,but no cars were ready in time,so they used FJs instead. AFAIK the last ever F.Junior races-the formula officially finished on 31st December 1963. Unfortuanately all my records are lost for that period.I seem to remember most of the entrants were italian.

[Allen Brown]

I've found the first race - at Buenos Aires No 2 circuit on 16 Feb 1964. Heat 1 won by Moser's Brabham-Holbay-Ford from Bruno Deserti (Lotus-Ford 27) and "Geki" (Wainer-Ford).

This (and more if you want it) from Autosport 28 Feb 1964 p277.

It is referred to as a "Formula 2/Formula Junior Grand Prix" (21 Feb 1964 p240).

Allen

[karlcars]

I have a stackload of Argentine material which I obtained from the AC Argentino when I visited their offices in BA some years ago. What in particular do you need on 1951?

That sounds great, Doug. I will have to pay you a visit and look through it. Probably this autumn!

[b]You have been involved with this Forum thing for some time - aren't there some wonderful contributors connected with it - and, please tell me, how long does it take for the compulsive novelty to wear off??????

Yes, great contributors and fascinating material. My regret is that, except for the amazing memories of those involved, and of course the search facility, the material isn't saved in any rational way. Maybe that's the appeal! Of course when I see something of interest I tend to save it for future reference!

Great to have you aboard, Doug. Best regards!

[Felix Muelas]

.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I've found the first race - at Buenos Aires No 2 circuit on 16 Feb 1964. Heat 1 won by Moser's Brabham-Holbay-Ford from Bruno Deserti (Lotus-Ford 27) and "Geki" (Wainer-Ford).

This (and more if you want it) from Autosport 28 Feb 1964 p277.

It is referred to as a "Formula 2/Formula Junior Grand Prix" (21 Feb 1964 p240).

Allen

Wow! If none of those is a typing mistake, then I have to seriously revise some of the notes that I sent to Jose Luis Otero about the death of Alberico Passadore.

On the Temporada : Paul Sheldon gives the following dates and names of the races :

GRAN PREMIO INTERNACIONAL CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES, Buenos Aires, 16.01.64
GRAN PREMIO INTERNACIONAL CIUDAD DE ROSARIO, Costanera, 22.2.64
GRAN PREMIO INTERNACIONAL CIUDAD DE CORDOBA, Cordoba, 29.2.64
GRAN PREMIO INTERNACIONAL AUTOMOVIL CLUB ARGENTINO, Buenos Aires, 7.3.64

(very logically the first race should have been February and not January...but I just noticed. This implies that Passadore died one month later than I reported...)

That first race was run in 2 heats of 20 laps each, the final results on aggregate. It looks like the results Allen quotes are the ones from Heat 2 but only as far as Moser winning and Deserti being second. "Geki" did not took part on the second Heat...
So what about the first?
Well, the story goes that I do not really know who Alberico Passadore was, but at the wheel of a Lotus 27-Ford he started Heat One from the front row, sharing best practice time with "Geki" and faster than Moser. After the 20 laps, he was still leading, winning the Heat from Moser (by 3 secs) and from Franz Dörflinger, whilst Geki was fourth. To round up the achievement (and the competitors were not exactly unknown drivers or newcomers, Juan Manuel Bordeu, Mario Casoni, Gastone Zanarotti, Massimo Natili, Carmelo Genovese, Karl Foitek, A Rodriguez Larreta, Corrado Manfredini, Bruno Deserti, Carlo FAcetti, Estefano Nasif to name a few of them) he also got fastest lap of the Heat.
Now, all we know is that, starting the second Heat from pole position, he crashed fatally on lap 1.

Of course I would very much like to know about this driver, previous achievements, if any, nationality etc, and I will apply the "Ask The Nostalgia Forum first" before forgetting about it for another 20 years...

On a second "subordinated" mistery, both Jose Luis and myself were not able to agree if this Temporada was the last group of F Junior races (with some exceptions) or the first group of F3 races. It´s not very important, I know, but as Jose Luis was writing some biographical details of Moser and this series was his first "international" win, we couldn´t really agree of what kind of series was it. Looking at the entries, it´s a Junior, no doubt, although I agree that many sources do consider the series as a F3 one. Still wonder why (apart from the official substitution of one from the other on 31st December 1963, that is).

Finally, if someone is interested in the entry lists, grids and results of those 4 races, please let me know.

Meanwhile : anyone ever heard about Alberico Passadore ?.

Un abrazo

Felix

[Udo K.]

Doug

you mentioned your massive load of AC Argentino material. May I suggest to have a look
at http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=27687. In this thread we are still looking for more information and results on Argentina Sports Car races, as there was a sportscar championship there in the 50ies. Maybe you can help us?
Thanks a lot
Udo

[David McKinney]

Felix:
Alberico Passadore was one of the top Uruguayan drivers in the late 50s, driving an ex-GP Ferrari mit Corvette engine.
I might be able to dig out a bit more when I get home

[fines]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
(...) Estefano Nasif (...)

Félix, I am most astounded that of all people YOU should continue this nonsense! It's Nasif Estéfano, if you please!;)

Back to Rosier's Ferrari, Doug, you mention in your "Grand Prix Cars" book specifically which of the Monza cars went to Rosier and which to Landi (can't remember off-hand, was it Villoresi's to Rosier? - anyway). How come? What were your sources?

[FEV]

Albérico 'Beco' Passdore was often considered as the most promising driver Uruguay ever had. He was the father of Pedro Passdore who raced in various classes in South America from the mid-70s to late 80s (notably in SudAm F3). I had came across a few words on him at the time of Gonzalo Rodriguez' death and might also find a little more.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Michael Muller

# 010I was no works car, it was owned by the Scuderia Inter resp. Troubetskoy personally. It was the only Spyder Corsa with a “horseshoe” grille, and therefore for sure Nuvolari’s MM car. Folland bought his car from the Grupo Inter, and I am convinced that it was # 010I, although the front including bonnet was different. It now had a grille similar to the other SCs, but very crudely made (see photo below).

I took your instruction. Do you like the quote?

I concur with almost every point you make - mere memory was faltering - but in 1948 it was difficult to get a better claim to 'ex-works warhorse' than factory entry for Mr Nuvolari in the world's greatest road race...

Regarding firm identification of individual cars from photos - 'horseshoe grille' alone is pretty weak. -because the extreme nose is such a vulnerable, often repaired, section of the car. You are obviously very well clued-in on this kind of research, so I presume this is not the only identifying feature you use. Interestingly, the firewall and scuttle of this car are exposed in the famous Mille Miglia shots of Nuvolari having long-since lost the bonnet panel and one cycle mudguard. Match them up with the other well-known (Geoff Goddard) shot of the Folland car in the Gooders paddock, and there's the matching firewall and scuttle detail. We know the cars differed one from another in myriad details, the firewalls are distinctive, case proven?

Tell you what - you try talking a sceptical auction audience through evidence such as this and after two to three hours they will have you believing that you really had faked up the evidence on Photoshop...

This kind of research is wonderful to do - long may your magnifying glass flourish...

DCN

[Doug Nye]

Darn it! I take it all back - the quote just didn't work...

DCN

[David McKinney]

Alberico Passadore (1930-1964)
Can’t add much more. His Ferrari-Corvette, which had started life as a 166, took him to several 2nd and 3rd placings in Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay in 1960 and 1961, including first in the Premio Primavera race at Buenos Aires 30/9/61.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by fines
Félix, I am most astounded that of all people YOU should continue this nonsense! It's Nasif Estéfano, if you please!;)

Michael,
I guess I FULLY deserve your irritation. Guilty.

Felix

[FEV]

Felix,
Here is what I had found on Passadore. Can't remember where this excerpt came from - that was in 1999 way before I learned Hans' "Golden Rules of the Motorsport Historian" among which "always quote your sources" is the number 1 ! It came from Uruguay for sure. Sorry for non-spanish speakers of the Forum, but I rather post the original text rather than my rough translation !

"Industrial y deportista uruguayo (1930-1964) pionero en la fabricación y montaje de automotores en nuestro país y proyectista y constructor de una máquina embotelladora de champaña que se usa con gran resultado en la industria vitivinícola nacional. Apasionado del automovilismo, campeón nacional y primera figura del país en el campo internacional durante más de una década. Falleció trágicamente en una carrera que disputaba en el Autódromo Municipal de Buenos Aires"

Frank

[Felix Muelas]

David and Frank

Jose Luis is going to be over the moon with that info that you found. I thank you both in his name ;)

Felix

[Michael Müller]

Doug, the quote works perfectly!
Of course you are right, there are numerous other details to identify the cars, but I don't wanted to post a full survey. Unfortunately I don't have the other Folland Goodwood picture, which should show the car with open bonnet. Scanners are very useful machines ....
Nevertheless, the horseshoe grille of # 010I in 1948 was unique, and therefore I take it as proven that Nivola's 1948 MM car was # 010I. And works car, yes, literally correct, as the MM entry of course was an - unauthorized? - Scuderia Ferrari entry ...!
And sceptical audiences at auctions? In my opinion scepticism (damn, I learned to spell this word in school 35 years ago..?!) is a rather rare bird at auctions, most people only believe what they like to believe, otherwise the GGG wouldn't be so successful! Would like to have your opinion about this 0012M who is claimed to be the (luckily) disappeared 008I, and which now is fitted with a replica body like 008I in 1949 version. But better not publicly here in this forum, as otherwise the GGG may press on their (in)famous lawyer button.

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
Wow! If none of those is a typing mistake ...

Felix

I've been back to check. In the 21 Feb 1964 edition, Autosport says "last Sunday" and in the following week it says "On Sunday, 16th February". So it's definitely February.

The order I quoted was not actualy heat 1 but was practice session 1. Sorry The first heat was won by Alberico Passadore (Lotus-Ford 27) from Geki (Wainer-Ford) and Moser (Brabham-Ford). The second heat saw Passadore's death and was won by Moser from Deserti (Lotus-Ford 27) and Foitek (Lotus-Ford 27).

There are only very brief reports on the other three races but the 28 Feb 1964 p273 report on round 2 says Moser won in "his Ford-powered Formula Junior", which may take the excitement out of it for Stefan. Behind him were Deserti, Manfredini (Wainer-Ford) and Dorfliger (Lotus-Ford 27)

On 6 Mar 1964 p302 it confirms Moser's third win, from Bordeu (Brabham-Ford) and Dorfliger, and on 13 Mar 1964 p337 it confirms his fourth, from Foitek-Bordeu-Geki-Deserti.

Hang on!! Here's a full page report on round 2 (13 Mar 1964 p338) - it's not in the contents!! And then reports on rounds 3 and 4 on 27 Mar 1964 p419. These say Bordeu's car was a Lotus 22. I guess email must have been more primitive in 1964.

Allen

[Rob29]

I guess Dr.Alvarez just posted his reports-would have take several days even by air mail in those days.Reminds me of 1956 when it took 3 weeks to get a proper report of F1 Argentine GP.Monday morning nothing on the news,nothing in the papers.Oh well,have to wait until Autosport comes out on Thursday.Come Thursday,no Autosport,printers on strike!The following Thursday it arrived with a brief report.The full report and pictures arrived the next Tuesday.

[Doug Nye]

And sceptical audiences at auctions? In my opinion scepticism (damn, I learned to spell this word in school 35 years ago..?!) is a rather rare bird at auctions, most people only believe what they like to believe, otherwise the GGG wouldn't be so successful!

Michael,

Sorry but you have the advantage of me - what do the initials 'GGG' stand for? The best auction story I recall involves a hugely sceptical, questioning punter at Monaco one year who doubted every single item of evidence I presented that a car we were offering - Brooks this is - was probably rebodied after one great success, and then achieved another the following month. Having loudly rubbished the evidence and the car during the public viewing - he of course bid furiously for it - bought it at a still-stonking price - and today the very evidence I presented is a major jewel in that particular collector's crown, he believes every word of it...as indeed he should.

The second auction scam which in this case got right up my nose was the one-marque expert who persuaded the sanctioning body to send a statement doubting the car's veracity on Sale morning, which we were then obliged to read out as the Lot came up for sale.

Needless to say - this 'official' statement, which at that moment we lacked the hard evidence totally to refute, killed that car stone dead in the water. Only one person was left bidding, at a very low level, and that was the one-marque expert who'd initiated the chain of events in the first place. Because the car was offered at 'no reserve' anyway - he drove home with many thousands-worth of 'spares' on his trailer, just purchased for fourpence-hapenny.

DCN

[Michael Müller]

Doug, I explained "GGG" earlier in this thread:
"In order to avoid the standard question of our newcomers, GGG = Gordon Gecko Gang".
A wording, which by the way has been created by our honoured host ...

Car trading has it's own rules, whether on the scrap yard, or at major auctions, it's live and let die. Experience and smartness counts, for sellers as well as buyers, whether one likes it or not.
I for my side have some problems with car histories, which over the years from auction to auction change from "may be" through "is reported to be" and "probably is" to finally "is". Anyway, I will stop with this, as it is off-topic.

[Doug Nye]

I have to say - from personal experience - what you say might well be the case at some auctions - but not at reputably run ones.

I don't assume I'll be believed - but in my 15 year-experience as competition car consultant first to Christie's, then Brooks (born out of Christie's car department) and now Bonhams (since Brooks has taken over both Bonhams and Phillips and has decided to use the Bonhams name 'cos it was founded before the Flood) - the best and most successful British-run classic and historic car auctions are utterly as straight as a gun barrel.

They could not afford to be otherwise.

Errors will be made, but if notified pre-sale they are ALWAYS, invariably, announced.

The reputable outfits simply would not survive as long as they have, nor as successfully as they have, if this were not the case.

DCN

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Funny how this thread has fell apart in two, and none of them about Temporada 47-55!

Anyway, with great help from Stanislav Stipanek, I have uploaded results of the 1964 races here: http://user.tninet.s..._Temporada1.htm

Please use the "Next Race" link at the bottom to see all 4 races.

Stefan

[FEV]

Thanks for that Stefan and Stanislav ! Quite a good field for this Temporada, even if it seemed like a three-way match between Argentina, Italy and Switzerland. Does anybody know if the Lotus driver Franz Dörflinger is related to the 50/80/125cc motorbike ace from the 80s Stefan Dörflinger ?

[Michael Müller]

No misunderstanding, the "live and let die" quote was related to your earlier posting and simply means that a seller always tries to get the best price possible, and a buyer of course the other way round. The examples given by you are surely no fair play, but belong to auction practice, especially in case of "no reserve".
The other quote about "is reported to be" etc. has nothing to do with your examples, and of course it was not my intention to call this typical auction practice. But as you say, it happened, and unfortunately Robert Brooks is not the only classic car auctioneer.