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1994 revisited - Do you think Benetton used TC?


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#1 A3

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 13:38

Disclaimer: I couldn't be bothered if they did use it, if they found a way to hide it, good on them, I'm not trying to start a flame war or something. And I have no connections with Frans whatsoever. :drunk: :drunk:

This is just something that has been going through my mind for quite some time.

When I participated in this thread about the crash between Hill and Schumacher I watched the video of the incident many times.

When looking at the footage of the track-side camera, I cannot understand how Schumacher was accelerating so fast off the grass after he hit the wall. I mean, he just rockets away just like he's on asphalt. I've seen many cars go off track and on the grass, but I've never seen anything like this.

What do you think?

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#2 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 13:51

I honest don't know, and we never will for sure but I think Benetton '94 can go in the PR Annuals as how not to do it :lol:

Imagine how differently MS might have been considered, if Hill had seen the crash and waited that one corner more to pass as MS' car gave up!

#3 Gemini

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 13:58

Quote

Originally posted by A3
[b]I mean, he just rockets away just like he's on asphalt. I've seen many cars go off track and on the grass, but I've never seen anything like this.

What do you think?

I've seen cars with TC ( post Spain 2001) going off track and the did not seem to rocket away from grass either, so I guess your 1994 impression has nothing to do with TC...

#4 alain

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 13:58

I am pretty sure they used it.Senna thought so also.

#5 MONTOYASPEED

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 13:59

:eek: Verstappen used TC :eek:

#6 A3

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 14:01

Montoyaspeed, do you have to do it again?? :rolleyes:

If you can't comment on the topic itself, please refrain from commenting at all.

#7 Nikolas Garth

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 14:06

Quote

Originally posted by A3
Montoyaspeed, do you have to do it again?? :rolleyes:

If you can't comment on the topic itself, please refrain from commenting at all.

I don't think he has ever forgiven Jos for the driving lesson he gave to JPM in Brazil 2001. :D

#8 130R

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 14:32

IMO they used both traction and launch control.

#9 DOHC

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 14:43

Imagine how differently MS might have been considered, if it weren't for that unfortunate 1994 season.

Yes, I think they had TC. That B194 runs like an SUV. Only faster. ;)

#10 Frans

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 14:44

If anyone ANYONE ever wanted a good reason or seomthing like that for the fact that M$ and Jos daBoss are such good friends.........

it are the 1994-Benetton secrets. WAY beyond the use of TC and LC illegally as Senna for instance claimed. The 1994 secrets, go way beyond the illegal use of traction control. Remember France 94, where M$ also rocketed away at the start, they found the hidden software in the engine management. An invisible "option 13" not seeable on screen, would apply the TC and/or LC options for the car. Hidden shifts with the gears and brake pedalls would delete the traces. Yes this is 1994 people, we are now in 2002. Don't be shocked to much.

and saying "I don't believe they used TC" is like saying that Senna is an stupid monkey talking out of his ass. I can't believe that, Senna knew how it looked like how it feld and all, he HAD to use it as team order at McLAren, remember 1993, Donington? he used great traction control, he didn't like TC very much, because it made everything so damn easy.... and he believed to be faster without, more in control....nevertheless, the very next race in the wet, many times compared with Donignton 93 is of course, Barcelona 96.

TC in both times, with both drivers who could use it? Only in 93 it was legal, in 96 it surely wasn't.

but like A3 said ...... does it really matter now?

can't we better check out who cheats THIS season? because there are a LOT of ways to cheat you know.

but 1994 was a GUILTY year for them. sure was. and in fact it's not an opinion if they used it. It's also a fact!! I have documents of the FIA check after the French GP 1994. it's black on white.

#11 Makebelieve

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 14:54

Frans in this thread, that's a chocker! :lol:

And no, I dont think they used it!

#12 alain

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 15:05

Quote

Originally posted by MONTOYASPEED
:eek: Verstappen used TC :eek:


nope,he didnt.
In Aida Senna said that 2 benetton cars were different.Chewmachers car had TC,Verstappens didnt have...

This is coming from an anti-Jos. :smoking:

#13 benrapp

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 15:05

Senna is an stupid monkey talking out of his ass. How can you say such a thing? Surely what you meant was: "Senna was a stupid monkey talking out of his arse."

Ayrton Senna was not God. How do I know this? He's dead, and he did not rise again. Enough with the annoying Brazilian already.

From the video it looks to me as though the Benetton did not lose much, if any, speed from brushing the wall, and just carried on across the grass on momentum. There's no significant visible acceleration, and the slide that Michael is correcting is probably as much a reaction to the impact as any power-induced oversteer.

I'd have thought it likely, from the accumulated evidence, that Benetton did use illegal TC in '94, but I don't think the video contributes particularly.

#14 Zoe

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 15:07

Judging from the way Schumacher had to work the steering wheel when accelerating out of corners, I do not think they had traction control, at least not a working version of it. Come to think of it, Benetton did not have TC for most of 1993 when it was still legal because they did not get it to work properly, so I couldn't see why this should all of a sudden have changed in 1994.

As for comparing starts, some combinations of cars/tires/clutches/engines are simply better than others. Remember Schumacher testing different clutches? Remember Mika Hakkinens start in Suzuka 2000? Not everything is down to electronic aids.

Otherwise, if there weren't those topics that armchair enthusiasts could argue to death for 8 years in a row, would force people out on the street and discover real life. Now that would be horrible!

Zoe

#15 cv2000

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 15:11

Quote

Originally posted by Frans
If anyone ANYONE ever wanted a good reason or seomthing like that for the fact that M$ and Jos daBoss are such good friends.........

it are the 1994-Benetton secrets. WAY beyond the use of TC and LC illegally as Senna for instance claimed. The 1994 secrets, go way beyond the illegal use of traction control. Remember France 94, where M$ also rocketed away at the start, they found the hidden software in the engine management. An invisible "option 13" not seeable on screen, would apply the TC and/or LC options for the car. Hidden shifts with the gears and brake pedalls would delete the traces. Yes this is 1994 people, we are now in 2002. Don't be shocked to much.

and saying "I don't believe they used TC" is like saying that Senna is an stupid monkey talking out of his ass. I can't believe that, Senna knew how it looked like how it feld and all, he HAD to use it as team order at McLAren, remember 1993, Donington? he used great traction control, he didn't like TC very much, because it made everything so damn easy.... and he believed to be faster without, more in control....nevertheless, the very next race in the wet, many times compared with Donignton 93 is of course, Barcelona 96.

TC in both times, with both drivers who could use it? Only in 93 it was legal, in 96 it surely wasn't.

but like A3 said ...... does it really matter now?

can't we better check out who cheats THIS season? because there are a LOT of ways to cheat you know.

but 1994 was a GUILTY year for them. sure was. and in fact it's not an opinion if they used it. It's also a fact!! I have documents of the FIA check after the French GP 1994. it's black on white.


at the moment the only "stupid monkey talking out of his ass" would be y....well anyway
If he din't like TC very much as you claim why bother using it? I find it absurd that any driver would
say no to anything that would give them a slight advantage. If he belived to be faster without TC then mclaren had a really bad TC system :)

#16 cv2000

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 15:13

Quote

Originally posted by alain


nope,he didnt.
In Aida Senna said that 2 benetton cars were different.Chewmachers car had TC,Verstappens didnt have...

This is coming from an anti-Jos. :smoking:


that's too bad TC could have helped JV a lot more then SCHUMI :rotfl: :rotfl:

#17 Louis Mr. F1

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 15:18

My mind says they had used TC in 94 but my head says no. The reason is, if they really had used it, by now, a lot of the ex-Benetton mechanics who have left the team since then would have "leaked" out TC info by now. But I haven't heard any "confession" on that in the last 7 years.

#18 Vrba

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 15:21

Quote

Originally posted by benrapp ....

Ayrton Senna was not God. How do I know this? He's dead, and he did not rise again. Enough with the annoying Brazilian already.
....[/B]


This is the best sentence I read today!!!!

On 1994, yes, some Schumi's starts were so incredible that I tend to believe Benetton used launch control. They might have used TC as well, I don't know. But Senna's comments on Benneton using TC were probably the only excuse he coud use for his disastrous start to the season and are probably completely irelevant. He, the man born to win (in his own words, how modest!) had to find an outside reason for defeats, for sure no driver could have been better, could he?

Hrvoje

#19 Vrba

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 15:50

Quote

Originally posted by Louis Mr. F1
My mind says they had used TC in 94 but my head says no. The reason is, if they really had used it, by now, a lot of the ex-Benetton mechanics who have left the team since then would have "leaked" out TC info by now. But I haven't heard any "confession" on that in the last 7 years.


Maybe very few team members knew about it.

Hrvoje

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#20 The RedBaron

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 16:01

Quote

Originally posted by Frans
If anyone ANYONE ever wanted a good reason or seomthing like that for the fact that M$ and Jos daBoss are such good friends.........

it are the 1994-Benetton secrets. WAY beyond the use of TC and LC illegally as Senna for instance claimed. The 1994 secrets, go way beyond the illegal use of traction control. Remember France 94, where M$ also rocketed away at the start, they found the hidden software in the engine management. An invisible "option 13" not seeable on screen, would apply the TC and/or LC options for the car. Hidden shifts with the gears and brake pedalls would delete the traces. Yes this is 1994 people, we are now in 2002. Don't be shocked to much.

and saying "I don't believe they used TC" is like saying that Senna is an stupid monkey talking out of his ass. I can't believe that, Senna knew how it looked like how it feld and all, he HAD to use it as team order at McLAren, remember 1993, Donington? he used great traction control, he didn't like TC very much, because it made everything so damn easy.... and he believed to be faster without, more in control....nevertheless, the very next race in the wet, many times compared with Donignton 93 is of course, Barcelona 96.

TC in both times, with both drivers who could use it? Only in 93 it was legal, in 96 it surely wasn't.

but like A3 said ...... does it really matter now?

can't we better check out who cheats THIS season? because there are a LOT of ways to cheat you know.

but 1994 was a GUILTY year for them. sure was. and in fact it's not an opinion if they used it. It's also a fact!! I have documents of the FIA check after the French GP 1994. it's black on white.


Don't worry guys, he's been given a free visiting pass for the day, tomorrow he has to return back to the Institution! :lol:

#21 Jdcasas

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 16:04

Quote

I don't think he has ever forgiven Jos for the driving lesson he gave to JPM in Brazil 2001.



Low blow! :rotfl:

#22 JBDrake

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 16:47

If traction control 1992-93 style sounded as bad as it does today, then I would think that any team trying to run such a thing would be painfully obvious.

#23 alain

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 17:01

Quote

Originally posted by Vrba


Maybe very few team members knew about it.

Hrvoje


Werent you suppose to leave this place...Go and quickly.... :wave:

#24 Toxicant

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 17:36

If traction control in '94 killed the engine power the stewards would have known because of the sounds as someone mentioned.

Traction control is so obvious to anyone with ears that its a joke to question whether they used it or not considering the "sounds" it makes.

Now if it was a braking type control, who knows, wouldn't be as effective but that system would be easy to spot by "just inspecting" the car.

94 was the year we had a lot of on board with Schumacher, I remember seeing all the revs, braking, gear selection, how the hell could the world watch all that and not bust him if he was using it?

I think water cooled brakes was one of the better cheats I've seen to date :)

#25 Vrba

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 17:55

Quote

Originally posted by alain


Werent you suppose to leave this place...Go and quickly.... :wave:


No, I only ment not to post anything to implicated thread. Did you really mean that I would skip the opportunity to further annoy Senna fans here? Never!!!! Believe me, you'll go away from this forum before me.

Hrvoje

#26 alain

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 18:00

Quote

Originally posted by Vrba


No, I only ment not to post anything to implicated thread. Did you really mean that I would skip the opportunity to further annoy Senna fans here? Never!!!! Believe me, you'll go away from this forum before me.

Hrvoje


This will not happen..I am younger than you and hopefully you will die sooner than I do.

#27 Vrba

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 18:24

Quote

Originally posted by alain


This will not happen..I am younger than you and hopefully you will die sooner than I do.


Hehe, hope is the only thing you got left. And I'll benevolently ascribe the nonsenses you write to your tender age :-)

Hrvoje

#28 alain

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 18:26

Quote

Originally posted by Vrba


And I'll benevolently ascribe the nonsenses you write to your tender age :-)

Hrvoje


Unfortunate that you cannot use that excuse anymore.

#29 Vrba

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 18:27

On more serious note: we all agree that today's TC systems are easily identifiable by their sound. Isn't it in a contradiction with FIA's claims that it's impossible to detect whether those systems are built in a car? If we take FIA'a claims as having firm grounds, than it has to be possible to build non-strange-sounding non-detectable TC system. Or maybe it isn't?

Hrvoje

#30 vapaokie

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 18:27

How is this not a duplicate thread to 10-20 threads started by Frans in the last couple of years alone???????? Let the issue die already.

#31 benrapp

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 19:05

Quote

Originally posted by Vrba
On more serious note: we all agree that today's TC systems are easily identifiable by their sound. Isn't it in a contradiction with FIA's claims that it's impossible to detect whether those systems are built in a car? If we take FIA'a claims as having firm grounds, than it has to be possible to build non-strange-sounding non-detectable TC system. Or maybe it isn't?


ISTR that the current legitimate systems are forced to be quite crude, with limitations on the sensors that may be used and the method of cutting power. The alleged undetectable systems were supposed (at various times) to be doing all sorts of odd things, like changing the engine mapping on the fly to reduce power, changing diff settings, braking individual wheels etc etc. I think it's quite possible to build a more subtle system, it's just that a) it may not be necessary if TC is legal and b) some of the things needed to make an undetectable system are illegal under the current rules.

One amusing side effect of legalising TC in this way is that cars that [/I]don't[/I] sound like tractors on the exit of slow corners must have illegal brakes or diff/clutch arrangements...

#32 George Bailey

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 19:13

As an aside, watching the video I believe JPM would tell DH that MS left DH plenty of room if only DH had applied his brakes earlier. :lol:

#33 berge

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 19:35

wow.
I hadn't realized how many 9 year olds posted on this B.B.
Better start using the 'ignore list' ASAP.


BTW.
1-People who are this obsessed with Senna should get some counselling.
2-Porsches are nothing more than glorified, over-priced VW Bugs sold to people with more money than brains.

(except for the 944 TurboS) :)




#34 DOHC

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 20:05

Quote

Originally posted by George Bailey
As an aside, watching the video I believe JPM would tell DH that MS left DH plenty of room if only DH had applied his brakes earlier.


Thanks! Now at last I understand why MS called it a racing incident in spite of Ross Brawn saying that JPMs penalty was fair! :lol:

#35 MONTOYASPEED

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 20:19

Quote

Originally posted by A3
Montoyaspeed, do you have to do it again?? :rolleyes:

If you can't comment on the topic itself, please refrain from commenting at all.


This thread is about the Benetton B194. Verstappen drove the B194, what's wrong with that?

#36 Ricardo F1

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 20:28

More than likely is my guess. There has to be a reason that the FIA were so overly harsh on Schumacher that year, and logically speaking I think they knew that Benetton were using TC and LC but couldn't prove it and thus took every other route to try and punish them.

#37 A3

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 20:35

Quote

Originally posted by MONTOYASPEED


This thread is about the Benetton B194. Verstappen drove the B194, what's wrong with that?


http://www.unofficia...994/1994_07.asf

#38 DOHC

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 20:39

Didn't they also have this fuel pipe filter problem? They had had it removed so they could refuel faster, and this was the reason why Jos's car burst into flames in Germany. Does anyone remember more exact details?

#39 Ricardo F1

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 20:42

Yeah, they just tampered with the fuel rig to speed it up but the shut off valve didn't work correct hence fuel flying everywhere.

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#40 DOHC

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 20:48

And they got no penalty for it? I don't remember exactly, but Benetton were more or less constantly in trouble with the FIA, right? If it wasn't TC it was the fuel rig, and they had to have their arms twisted to surrender the engine maps too. And there was some kind of CTRL-R option in the software. Shees, there was a lot of smoking gun evidence there, wasn't it?

#41 X-ray

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 20:58

No way they used LC or TC.

* First of all, it would have leaked out by team members.
* It would have been heard, the engine would have sound like today=awfull
* Benetton's showed telemetry like rpm, gears speed on TV.
* FIA checked the car, looked at the recorded on-board camera, isolated the engine note from the on-board camera and analysed the sound.

Plus, anyone remember last year when LC and TC were legal. How many times did we see cars standing on the grid after the start??

#42 DOHC

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 21:14

Quote

Originally posted by X-ray
* It would have been heard, the engine would have sound like today=awfull
* Benetton's showed telemetry like rpm, gears speed on TV.
* FIA checked the car, looked at the recorded on-board camera, isolated the engine note from the on-board camera and analysed the sound.


But from the technical/engineering point of view, none of these things would constitute proof of TC or not TC. Why were they so reluctant to show the FIA the engine map and software? And when certain options in the software were discovered, Benetton claimed that they "weren't used," IIRC.

#43 A3

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 21:24

Wasn't TC allowed in the early '90s? If so, how did it sound back then?

#44 Jhope

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 21:51

Give me a few minutes, and I'll show you how the FIA found that Benetton, Ferrari and McLaren were all cheating that year.

#45 ace

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 23:09

I think the answer to this is another question....do you think TC was used in the first four races last year?;)

#46 Jhope

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 23:14

Quote

At the French Grand Prix in late June, Schumacher beat Hill
off the line with a start so flawless that it hardened the
suspicions lurking in many minds. This was the kind of
get-away that had been seen many times in the previous
two seasons, when the top teamshad enjoyed the benefit of
the now proscribed traction control systems and fully auto-
matic gearboxes.

Announcing its ban on monst kinds of computer-controlled
devices, the FIA had been loud in its insistence that the new
regulations would be regularly and strictly policed. And in
July, shortly after the British Grand Prix, the FIA's technical
commision produced the findings from a software analysis
company, LDRA of Liverpool, which it had hired to conduct
its spot checks into computer programmes being used by
three teams: Ferrari, McLaren and Benetton.

To enable these checks to be made, the teams had first to
agree to surrender thei source codes: the means of access to
their computer programmes. Ferrari, spooked by the unpun-
ished discovery of their use of a variation on traction control at
Aida, readily complied; their cars were found to be clean.
McLaren and Benetton, however, refused to produce the
source codes, claiming that to do so would first compromise
the commercial confidentiality and second, infringe the 'in-
tellectual copyright' of their sofware supplier. When it was
pointed out to them that LDRA is often enlisted by the British
government to look into military software whose confidenti-
ality is covered by the Official Secrets Act, and carries weigh-
tier consequences than a sliver cup, a few bottles of
champagne and the further inflation of a few already oversized
egos, they gave in.

Both teams were fined $100 000 for attmpting to obstruct
the course of justice. And when the findings emerged, both
appeared to have had something to hide. In McLaren's case it
was a gearbox programme permitting automatic shifts. After
much deliberating, and to the surprise of many, the FIA
eventuallydecided that this was not illegal. But Benetton had
something far more exciting up their sleeves.

When LDRA's people finally got into the B194's computer
software, they discovered a hidden programme, and it was
dynamite: something which allowed Schumacher to make
perfect starts merely by flooring the throttle and holding it
there, the computer taking over to determine the correct
matching of gear-changes to engine speed, ensuring that the
car reached the first corner in the least possible time, with no
wheel spin or sideslip, all its energy concentrated into forward
motion. Before the winter, this combination of traction con-
trol and gearboxautomation would be legal. Now,
although explicitly outlawed by the regulations, it was still
there. If you knew how to find it. Because it was invisible.

It took even the LDRA;s people a while. What you had to do
was call up the software's menu of programmes, scroll down
beyond the bottom line, put the curasor on an apparently blank
line, press a particular key (no clue to that, either) - and, hey
presto, without anything showing on the screen, the special
programme was there.

The called it 'launch control', and LDRA's computer
detectives also discovered the means by which the driver
could activate it on his way to the starting grid. It involved a
sequence of commands using the throttle and clutch pedals
and the gear-shift 'paddles' under the streering wheel. Ben-
atton couldn't deny its existence, but they did claim that it
hadn't been used saince it had been banned. So why was it still
there, and why had its existence been so carefully disguised?

It remained in the software, they said, because to
remove it would be too difficult. The danger was that in
the purging of one programme, others might become cor-
rupted. Best to leave it be. But, so that the driver couldn't
accidently engage it and thereby unintentionally break the
new rules, 'launch control' had been hidden carefully away
behind a series of masking procedures.

'That's enough to make me believe tey were cheating,' an
experienced software programmer with another Formula
One team told me. 'Look, we purged our software of
all illegal systems during the winter. I did it myslef. OK, our
car isn't quite as sophisticated as the Benetton. But it only took
me two days. That's all. Perfectly straighforward. And the fact
that they disguised it was very suspicious.'

Then he told me the most interesting this I heard all year.

Here's what you can do, he said, if you want to get
away with something. You write an illegal programme - an
offspring of traction control, say, such a prescription for rev
limits in each gear for a particular circuit - and you build into
it a self-liquidating facility. This is how it works. The car
leaves the pits before the race without the programme in its
software. The driver stops the car on the grid, and gets out.
His race engineer comes up and, as they do in pre-race
period before the grid is cleared, he plugs his little laptop
computer into the car - and presses the key that downloads
the illegal programme. For the next hour and a half the driver
makes unrestricted use of it. Thanks to efficiency, he wins
the race. He takes his lap of honour, he drives back down the
pit lane, he steers through the cheering crowds into the parc
ferme
where the scrutineers are waiting to establish the win-
ning car's legality, and he switches off the engine. And the
programme disappears, leaving not a trace of existence.

'It's easy,' the software man said. 'In fact, we use it all the time
in testing, when we just want to try something out without
having it hanging around to clutter up the system. And it's just
about impossible to police. The FIA came round the teams early
in the season, asking advice on what to do. But they're totally
out of their depth here, not surprisingly. It's like crime. There's
always more at stake for the criminals than for the police, so the
criminals are always a step ahead. It's a nightmare, really."


Richard Williams
pp:177-179
"The Death Of Ayrton Senna"

#47 X-ray

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 23:49

Quote

Originally posted by DOHC


But from the technical/engineering point of view, none of these things would constitute proof of TC or not TC. Why were they so reluctant to show the FIA the engine map and software? And when certain options in the software were discovered, Benetton claimed that they "weren't used," IIRC.

I didn't say those point were proof of not cheating, they are strong arguments that would please any sensible F1 fan that they didn't use TC/LC.

#48 Ricardo F1

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Posted 21 March 2002 - 01:24

Right so they found McLaren and Ferrari legal and Benetton illegal but couldn't prove that it had been used . . . . which all explains the draconian approach to Benetton elsewhere . . .

#49 Jhope

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Posted 21 March 2002 - 02:16

Ferrai's software at that point was legal. What I forgot to write, was that earlier in the season, their software was deemed illegal, yet the FIA would not ban them as previously stated by Mosley. The FIA thought that if they banned Ferrari for the whole season, it would cost FOCA and FIA a whole load of money spectator interest dwindelling due to Ferrari's lack of presence.

#50 Ricardo F1

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Posted 21 March 2002 - 05:37

Jhope - good points but I honestly do think that Benetton were treaten rather harshly that season for a reason. . . . I mean we've never seen somebody so berated again . . . well, except Ron Dennis.