113 replies to this topic

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Seems that many drivers held dual nationality, we know Harry Schell - France/USA and Hermano da Silva Ramos, France/Brazil.
What about these drivers who often is listed with dual nationality?
Do we know which nationality they held (or holds)?

Jorge de Bagration, Spain/Georgia
Lucien & Mauro Bianchi, Italy/Belgium
Christian Heins, France/Brazil
Andrea Vianini, Italy/Argentina
Juan Manuel Bordeu, France/Argentina
Ken Miles, Great Britain/USA
Woolf Barnato, South Africa/Great Britain
John Love, South Rhodesia/South Africa
Pat Fairfield, South Africa/Great Britain
Freddy Kottulinsky, Sweden/Germany
Bob Olthoff, South Africa/Great Britain
Klaas 'Jimmy' Twisk, Holland/Great Britain
André Loens, Belgium/France/Great Britain
Edgar Barth, East or West Germany
Eddie Hall, Canada/Great Britain/USA
"Raph", France/Argentina
José Scaron, Belgium/France
Kaye Petré, Canada/Belgium
Luis Fontés, Great Britain/Spain

Anyone who have more names?

Stefan

[ensign14]

Bertrand Gachot? French mother, Belgian father, Luxembourgois licence, British criminal record.

[twymanj]

Jonathan Williams. Egyptian born Englishman living in France ! Competed for Frank Williams.

[Frank de Jong]

This wild Belgian/Norwegian chap, what was his name... F3, FF2000, Marlboro
Jochen Rindt, German/Austrian?

[uechtel]

Do you really mean "dual" nationality in the sense of the meaning "holding two nationalities at the same time"? Or do drivers count, who changed it during their life? In the latter case you should perhaps add a certain Mario Andretti (Italy/USA).

I think Edgar Barth should be disqualified from the list in either case as he defected from East Germany in the mid-fifties. Anyway he could have never be regarded as East German, as this nationality did simply not exist at that time. Officially there were only "Germans" on both side of the iron curtain. Even the German olympic team was still a combined one. If I recall right GDR citizenship was introduced only after both Germanies becoming UN members in the seventies. But I was very young then...

If you keep Barth in the list, then you should add Theo Fitzau for the same reasons, too.

Or do you mean drivers who actually RACED under two different nationalities?

Hans Stuck raced briefly under Austrian license after the war.

Rikky von Opel? (Germany / Liechtenstein)
Jody Scheckter (I read somewhere that in Japan 1977 he was admitted due to his British passport while his brother Ian, who was "only" South African was not because of the Apartheid boycott!)

What about Harry Schell?

[uechtel]

Frank´s mention of Jochen Rindt just reminds me of Harald Ertl, too (just the other way round: Austrian with German license)

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
This wild Belgian/Norwegian chap, what was his name... F3, FF2000, Marlboro

Harald Huysman!

[Vitesse2]

Stefan: I don't think I've ever seen John Love described as South African by any other than unreliable or uninformed sources! He was Rhodesian, but may have raced on a South African licence for at least some of his career - I would guess that after UDI in 1965 the FIA would have withdrawn recognition from whatever the Rhodesian sanctioning body was. No doubt Rob Young knows!

Did Ken Miles take out US citizenship, or was he still technically British?

And another one for the pot: George Robson, Indy 500 winner 1946 and his brother Hal: George was born in the UK, Hal in Canada - both are sometimes described as Canadian, sometimes American. Here's an explanation via Hal's son Lee:

The whole Robson bunch originates from Newcastle on Tyne. They were the first brothers to compete at the speedway as far as I know. Now, in about 1935 both brothers proudly became American citizens. George
always considered himself to be an Englishman and my dad always claimed to be Canadian (even though they were very proud Americans.) A picture of the Queen and a small British flag adorned the wall of my
grandma's kitchen. Tea was the drink of the day with English Griddle cakes that we called Girdles. My mother still bakes them but I'm afraid when she goes the tradition goes with her. The brothers looked
a lot alike. Alot of people could not tell the difference between them.

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Do you really mean "dual" nationality in the sense of the meaning "holding two nationalities at the same time"?

Yes.
What had in mind whas to get it right in our records. At least, TNF members with own websites should have it right!

I think Edgar Barth should be disqualified from the list

OK.

Or do you mean drivers who actually RACED under two different nationalities?

No. Or yes... it's interesting!

Stefan: I don't think I've ever seen John Love described as South African by any other than unreliable or uninformed sources!

I have! And I have also read in a Swedish Motorsport Magazine: "The Swiss driver Jo Bonnier was 6th"


Stefan

[Hans Etzrodt]

John Love was always Rhodesian, NEVER known to be South-African, at least when I lived there from 1963-73.

[Vitesse2]

Perhaps my English was too complicated Stefan! What I meant was that no reliable or properly informed source would call Love South African.

And as for Bonnier - well, to be fair, he did live in Switzerland for many years, raced under Swiss colours and called his team the Anglo-Suisse Equipe, but I'll agree with you that it 's pretty poor journalism, especially in a Swedish magazine.

[Gert]

IIRC,
While reviewing some F3000 result recently, I've seen a guy who sometimes listed as Swiss and sometimes Italian, but I can't remember his name right now. (I think it was either Franco Forini or Andrea Chiesa). I'll check it out later ...
I 'm not even sure it's actually a double nationality - could as well have been a plain mistake :

Gert.

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal

Lucien & Mauro Bianchi, Italy/Belgium
Juan Manuel Bordeu, France/Argentina
Woolf Barnato, South Africa/Great Britain

Anyone who have more names?

Gert, Chiesa is the one. He's Italian born & I believe, Swiss licened.

Bordeu was Argentine born, Argentine licence

Barnato I've always understood to be "british". Bianchi was born in Italy but moved to Belgium as a child - he raced under a Belgian licence but could well be desribed as Italian:

All the following drivers (not already mentioned) have a case for dual nationality: (however tenous) (Don't go down the Irish, Scots & Welsh links just yet!!!!!)

Jean Alesi (France/Sicily thus - Italy)
Ian Ashley (German born Briton)
Lorenzo Bandini (Libyan born Italian)
Olivier Beretta (Monegasque but sometimes labelled as French as "Monaco is in France" some people say....
Mike Beuttler (Egyptian born Briton)
Gino Bianco (Italian born, moved to Brazil aged 12 & raced under Brazillian licence)
David & Gary Brabham (English born Aussies)
Adolf Brudes & Hans Stuck (both born in what is now Poland but German & Austrian respectively)
John Cannon & Al Pease (english born Canadians) & John Claes (english born, mother Scottish but Belgian through & through)
Frtiz d'Orey (German grandfather, Portuguese parents, but born & raced as a Brazillian)
"Nano" da Silva Ramos (French & Brazillian licences)
Toulo de Graffenreid (French born, Swiss licence) & paul Frere & Andre Pilette (French born - Belgian racers)
Rudi Fischer (german born, Swiss licence) as was Michel May.
Andre Guelfi (born in Morrocco but raced under a French licence as did Robert LaCaze)
Roberto Guerrero - USA & Colombia
Keke Rosberg - Swedish born, Finnish WC
Mike Harris, born Zambia but raced as a South African
Joe Kelly was born in South America, lived in England but was an Irishman. (like Spike Milligan, only he was born in India...)
David Prophet was born in Hong Kong but was an Englishman
Pierre Henri Raphanel - Algerian born, French racer
Clay Regazzoni was a very Italian Swiss.......
The late Bob Said, Syrian/Russian but USA licenced & born
Ralf Schumacher may race under an Austrian licence in future.......
Benetton switched from English to Italian
Rikky von Opel is American but raced under a Liechensteinan licence...


Hey.... I did say some were very tenous......

[Richard Jenkins]

Oh yeah, current F3000 racer - Rob Nguyen - Vietnamese parentage, Australian licence, lives in Switzerland!

[fines]

Originally posted by Gert
IIRC,
While reviewing some F3000 result recently, I've seen a guy who sometimes listed as Swiss and sometimes Italian, but I can't remember his name right now. (I think it was either Franco Forini or Andrea Chiesa). I'll check it out later ...
I 'm not even sure it's actually a double nationality - could as well have been a plain mistake :

Gert.

Gabriele Varano? In his F3 days he was always listed as Swiss, even when competing in the Italian Championship, but now he seems to be Italian!

OTOH, I have never seen Regazzoni listed as Italian! He was Swiss through and through, I can't see your point. But what about Christian Fittipaldi? And Peter Schindler? I think both have a Swiss mother, and have dual citizenship.

Also, in his latter days Bonnier was certainly more Swiss than Swedish! Sorry, Stefan...;)

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by fines


OTOH, I have never seen Regazzoni listed as Italian! He was Swiss through and through, I can't see your point. But what about Christian Fittipaldi?

My mistake. I noticed it soon after postage - I was under the impression he breifly raced under an Italian licence to further his earlier career but second checks prove that to be false... Sorry!

[pc13]

Pedro Couceiro, Angola born Portuguese.
André Couto, born in Lisbon, but moved to Macao when he was 5. Has a Portuguese license, but double Portuguese/Chinese nationality.

Wasn't British driver Dominic Chappell born in France? I think I remember hearing about it when there was still British F3000.

pc13

[Marcor]

José Scaron was born at Laeken (Brussels) in 1895 but became a French Citizen when he joined the French army in 1914. He started racing around 1926 and was living at Le Havre (France). He did his career in France.

André Loens was from Roubaix, a border City more known for the famous cycle race Paris - Roubaix, 'The hell of the North'. He was garagist in England.

"Raph", alias Raphaël Béthenod, Baron de Las Casas et Comte de Montbressieu, was born in Argentina but his parents were French. His father came back with him in France - near Lyon - when he was a young child.

Juan Manuel Bordeu, France/Argentina: I never seen him as French...

Lucien or Luciano Bianchi had a Belgian licence, lived in Belgium but was born at Milano.

...

Just one question. What about the nationaly of the people born in a colony or a not-independent land ? I think to Bandini (Lybia was a Italiann Colony), Lehoux and Moll (Algerie, "part" of France), ... pc13 mentioned two Portuguese former colony (Angola, Macao)...

[Wolf]

Marcor- same could be said of Andretti who was born on Croatian soil (Motovun in Istria), which was under London agreement of 1915, 'given' to Italy for their war effort but was returned to Croatia after WWII.

[ensign14]

Re 'colonials': it may depend on the status of the colony. I believe France governed their colonies (and still does) as integral parts of France, returning MPs to the main chamber and so on, so they are not seen as 'colonies' per se. Most of the British 'colonials' were from dominions which were more or less self governing - I'd think it odd to think of Pat Fairfield as British - but of course a place of birth is not necessarily your citizenship or country, Harry Schell was not French.

[Marcor]

update to my last post: "Raph" was born in Argentine, his mother being Argentinian. He was seen as the Argentinian from Paris.

[LittleChris]

Wasn't Gil De Ferran born in Paris ?!?

[Torgny Arvidsson]

Well, Jo Bonnier or Jocke Bonnier was more Swedish than you can understand, ask his family and you will know!

[fines]

What about John MacDonald? I have already seen him listed as Hong Kong citizen and as Australian, and now also as an Englishman! I suppose there's a bit of truth in all three claims, but can anybody shed a bit of light on him?

[David McKinney]

The Hong Kong John McDonald was born in the UK
Was he the same person as the Australian John McDonald?
[ignore spellings]

[Carlos Jalife]

Gil de Ferran was born in Paris, son of a diplomat, and Max Wilson in Hamburg, son of another diplomat.
Then we have the Jourdain brothers, Michel (dad father of Michell II currently in CART) who ran as mexican always but his brother Bernard (Bernardo for us) was always listed as Belgian. They are from a Belgian family but moved to Mexico quite young and some of the smaller brothers might have been born in Mexico.
And Memo Gidley, born in the Gulf of Cortes, in a boat in Mexican territory (that's why he's Guillermo which is nicknamed Memo in spanish not Billy as it would be in the US).
Scott Dixon born in Australia but races as New Zealander.
It's all I can remember for now, it's friday night.......

[fines]

Originally posted by David McKinney
The Hong Kong John McDonald was born in the UK
Was he the same person as the Australian John McDonald?
[ignore spellings]

Two different persons? Hmm, a new twist... Would like to know more!

And Carlos, I have never seen Bernard Jourdain as Belgian, always Mexican. Do you have birth dates for the brothers?

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Michele Alboreto:
Milanese father
Libyan mother
Citizenship Italian

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Carlos Jalife
Scott Dixon born in Australia but races as New Zealander.

Born Auckland, New Zealand. Started racing in New Zealand. Went to Australia to further his racing career. Went to USA to further his racing career.
No dual nationality there!

[Megatron]

Andy Pilgrim, born in England, American Nationality.

Wayne Taylor, from NewZeland, now also American.

Incidently, both are racing for GM in sportscars.

[Tech_Nut]

Not sure if this is a dual nationality thing, but Eddie Irvine was born in Northern Ireland (so he's British) but he races on an Irish driving license. I remember a few seasons ago, there was some fuss every time Eddie won a GP as the organisers weren't sure whether to play God Save The Queen or the Irish national anthem. (The way Jaguar are doing this season, that's one decision race organisers will not have to worry about!!)

BTW, the reason Irv has an Irish license, is because when he started out racing, the Irish license was half the price of the British. It was just economics....

[ry6]

Some comments -

John Love was only ever known as a Rhodesian. (Being on the border of South Africa the Rhodesians took part in the SA Championships - as a matter of interest in rugby and cricket and golf Rhodesians were eligible for and played for the Springboks up until about 1980.) Most (probably) of the Rhodesians were British or of British origin though. Hence the "confusion".

Bob Olthoff was a South African, but raced quite extensively in the UK. He now lives in the USA - I think he builds Cobra replicas.

Eddie Hall was a Yorkshireman and certainly only ever "raced" as a British driver. He went to Canada during WW2. He lived out his days in Monaco.

I am sure Wayne Taylor was South African. He raced Atlantics and FF's here for many years.

Pat Fairfield was British but lived in South Africa as a youth. According to Andrew Embelton who wrote a story in Classic Car Africa (January 1999 ) Fairfield was emphatic that he was British.

Woolf Barnato was probably British although I think he was the brother of Barney the diamond man who sought fortune in SA.

[ry6]

OOps - left this off previous note.

Mike Harris (ex-Yeoman Credit Cooper-Alfa in 1962 SAGP and Rhodesian Champion that year) should be classified a Rhodesian. He was working at the Alfa agents in Rhodesia at the time and still has a business there although he now lives in Durban.

[bschenker]

Pierre de Siebental french Swiss, hi raced 1999 at Goodwood with a French license. I can’t tell tats hi it’s also Franc citizen, I was not able to find out his actually address.

[AlesiUK]

the thai prince B Bira(he never had a first name,just B!),raced on a britsh licence in the 1950's

What about Lois Chiron,the oldest driver ever to compete in a gp,he was born in monaco but raced i believe with a french licence.

i think there was another driver born in monaco who competed in the 1990's,it may or may not have been Olivier Beretta?

[Carlos Jalife]

Sorry about Dixon, actually checked the CART guide and Auckland it is, but in another one from IL out a couple of years ago it says Australia and I never checked again. I'll flog myself with grass fed mutton chops 39 times.
About Bernard Jourdain, even in the TV it appeared as Belgian, but' I'll look in the old anuaries and see what I find, also in the Indy Yearbooks. And by the way, Adrián Fernández, though mexican citizen, races on a US license, he doesn't get it in Mexico anymore, that's what the FIA rep here told me. I guess that should be fairly common for drivers living in the US.

[Don Capps]

To push this to the very edge of the envelope: Stirling Moss raced using an American competition license when his British driver's license was lifted....

[Carlos Jalife]

Monsieur Fines,
the racing Jourdains were born in different places and (obviously dates). They probably hold a Guinness record for racing the 7 of them in the same rally a Xinatecatl Automovil Club rally back in the mid 70s.
It starts with Felipe (Philippe) Jourdain who races rallies sparingly and was track administrator sometime in the 80s and 90s in Mexico; then came a sister Cristina which didn't race; then the famous Michel (CART 1980-81 and dad of current CART driver) who was born in Brussels the 25th of august of 1947; then came Pio (like the Pope) who was born december 12th 1948 and was also a good road course and rally driver, winning several kinds of races of both types; then Bernard (Bernardo) the CART Indy 1979 rookie of the year who was the last one born in Brussels in august 16th, 1950. Then the family moved to Mexico and another girl was born, Isabel no racer; then Jacques, who also rallied a bit; then Patricio, who was a twice rallying champ in Mexico and longtime chief steward and starter in several mexican categories (organized by Michel of course);and then Roberto who rallied a bit too.
Patricio has a son Patricio II who's doing F Vee and tracto-trailers now in Mexico, a young teenager, and Michel has Michel II who at 25 (sept 2nd, 1976) has already more than 100 CART races under his belt.
Michel's brother in law (from his first marriage) is Roberto Lascuráin, who has been several times in Mexico in the tracto-trailers Cup. His brothers-in-law from his second marriage are the Contreras brothers, one of them currently the only latin american in NASCAR in the truck series (Carlos); the other one is Enrique, now retired and several times mexican champion in F2, FK and owner of Contreras Motorsports team, saeveral times champion in trucks, F3 and others, and now a promoter in the new truck series, competing against Michel (dad).
Well, that seems to answer your question. And BTW, do you know there are several people who swear Adrián is actually form 1962 not 1965? Never seen the facts though.

[f1steveuk]

Having just looked at F1 quali' the box, I was curious to see Nico Rosberg (fine effort) listed as German. Odd me thinks as his father is a Finn. Was he born in Germany ( I thought 'dad' now resided in Monaco?) or does he race under a German license? Ralph Firman was always listed as Irish, but born in the UK, Mike Beutller, born in Eygpt, but listed as British. Rindt, born in Germany, listed as Austrian etc etc etc So what is the criteria, because as yet I haven't seen a common denominator!!!

[RS2000]

I think N. Rosberg was born in Germany? Normally, anyone can hold a competition licence of a country if they can show proof of residence (and maybe even if not for some) and crucially dont currently hold a licence issued by another country. The FIA system has some anomalies - like showing "GB" for all UK, which has caused not a few problems in Northern Ireland in the past.

[RTH]

Sounds a bit like merchant ships run under a 'Flag of Convenience '

[MoMurray]

Nico's mother is German and he has lived in Germany most of his life as far as I know. Likewise Firman's mother is Irish.

Mo.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by MoMurray
Nico's mother is German and he has lived in Germany most of his life as far as I know.

Nico has two passports, but admits that he hardly speaks Finnish. I've read an interview last year that he doesn't find nationality that important and considers himself a European in the first place.

[Alan Lewis]

Originally posted by scheivlak

Nico has two passports, but admits that he hardly speaks Finnish. I've read an interview last year that he doesn't find nationality that important and considers himself a European in the first place.

Good for him.

And, of course, his Finnish Dad was born in Sweden...

APL

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by Alan Lewis


And, of course, his Finnish Dad was born in Sweden...

APL

Exactly!!!! I was born in England, I'm English, and my license was English!!! That's why I'm trying to see a demoninator to it all

[Alan Lewis]

There isn't one beyond what RS2000 said. As someone born in England of Welsh ancestry and married to a Scot (...and I like Guinness very much...), I'm with Nico Rosberg all the way on this one. Nationality doesn't (shouldn't) matter.

APL

[f1steveuk]

Oh I understand, I was just looking for a reason. I mean if it were Bernie Ecclestone, it would be because it's a tax dodge!!

[Rob Ryder]

Originally posted by Alan Lewis
There isn't one beyond what RS2000 said. As someone born in England of Welsh ancestry and married to a Scot (...and I like Guinness very much...), I'm with Nico Rosberg all the way on this one. Nationality doesn't (shouldn't) matter.

APL

Don't tell Sheikh Maktoum or he will be VERY upset

[stevewf1]

Didn't Bertrand Gachot change his Nationality during his career? I seem to remember him being French, then Belgian, then European.

I agree Nationality isn't that important, unless one is trying to track such things in a database.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by stevewf1
Didn't Bertrand Gachot change his Nationality during his career? I seem to remember him being French, then Belgian, then European.

He had the Euro flag on his helmet. He had Franco-Belgian-Luxembourgeois ancestry, or something, and a British criminal record.

Nico will have to be German, Bernie wants to keep the German telly viewers when MS retires.