40 replies to this topic

[Hans Etzrodt]

Alfa Corse entered a total of four Alfa Romeo 8C-2300 Monzas at the 1932 Monaco Grand Prix, of which Caracciola’s was painted solid white. The other three cars were finished in regular Italian dark red for Borzacchini, Campari and Nuvolari with the respective numbers 24, 26 and 28.

The three red cars all carried a lateral stripe (aprox. 4 cm wide) on both sides of the car, beginning at the upper end of the radiator from where it stretched towards the tail of the car, passing just below the large numbers painted in front of the cockpit on top the car. This was the only race where the cars appeared in this color scheme. Does anybody know the reason why that was done?

And, who would know the color of the stripes?

A friend asked me that. He wants to build an authentic Model from a 1/8 scale kit with number 28. Nuvolari’s car, of course. He won that race, of course. Of course? Well, thanks to Caracciola's restrained driving tactics.

[Bozothenutter]

hi
actually it is me he's asking the info for....
am I right in assuming the stripes were of a different colour for each car, maybe for identification purposes?

[Milan Fistonic]

Louis Chiron's Scuderia CC Alfa Romeo (number 16) had a similar stripe at the 1933 Monaco GP.

[David McKinney]

IIRC, Chiron's car was blue with a white stripe and team-mate Caracciola's white with a blue stripe. But I've been wrong before...

[Hans Etzrodt]

In the winter 1932/33 Caracciola stayed with Louis Chiron in Aurosa. Alfa Romeo and Bugatti had both ended their contracts with these drivers and after some long thorough deliberations they formed the Scuderia CC - Caracciola-Chiron. They bought two Alfas and painted Chiron’s blue with white stripes and Caracciola,s white with blue stripes. Mercedes helped them with a diesel-truck to carry the racing cars. They hired two mechanics and Charly Caracciola acted as manager. Both drivers received invitations from the Monaco Grand Prix organizers, which was the teams first race. Because the car was new to Chiron, Caracciola drove in front of him to show the way around when they practiced with their cars for the first time in Monte Carlo. After 25 laps, Caracciola crashed when one front wheel locked up while braking for Tabac and the car hit the stone steps. He was out of racing for the next year to heal a complicated leg fracture. He was going to limp for the rest of his life.

[Patrick Italiano]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt

The three red cars all carried a lateral stripe (aprox. 4 cm wide) on both sides of the car, beginning at the upper end of the radiator from where it stretched towards the tail of the car, passing just below the large numbers painted in front of the cockpit on top the car. This was the only race where the cars appeared in this color scheme. Does anybody know the reason why that was done?

And, who would know the color of the stripes?

I also asked about the colour in the previous thread ( http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=38338 ), nobody replied.

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano

Personnally, I would go for the Monaco 1932 car, but does anyone know which colour was actually the stripe aroud it?

I have looked in several books up to now without success. But I believe they didn't extend up to the tail, but only to the cockpit. There's an unusual picture from the rear of the starting grid in 'The Legendary 2.3'. I'll check that to be sure.

I confirme the white/blue and blue/white scheme on the Scuderia CC cars.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Patrick, the color scheme for the Scuderia CC cars is mentioned in seval Caracciola bios. I have not yet checked if something was written about the striping in my mags because I did not question the validity of the statement from the books.

Regarding the 1932 Alfas at Monaco, I have at least one pictures, showing the stripe to go all around the body, if I recall. But I have to figure out how to post pictures first.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
...I have to figure out how to post pictures first...

Fair enough. But in the meantime, please feel free to submit to my email address anything that you want posted, and it will be done!.

;) fm

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Regarding the 1932 Alfas at Monaco, I have at least one pictures, showing the stripe to go all around the body, if I recall. But I have to figure out how to post pictures first.

You are now entitled to 10 megs of webspace, Hans. If you PM bira, she will activate this space for you and you can upload the pictures to the webspace, each picture then carrying a URL of its own.

Uploading the pictures to the webspace is easier than you would believe, for you just have to open a browser window and type the following*:



* Exactly what style you choose for your Atlas e.mail is up to you. I have prepared this based on the assumption that you will just type your name as shown, all in lower case and with no space or other divider between the 'hans' and the 'etzrodt'. You can, of course, use 'Hans_Etzrodt' or 'Hans.Etzrodt' if you wish. This will be a choice you make as you set up your e.mail account that comes with the webspace. The ****** is your password, as you use to log on to Atlas F1.

Once you have the browser window open and functioning, you need to make a folder to store the pictures you want to upload. Again, easy as falling off a surfboard... right click in the window, click on 'new' then click on 'folder' then name the folder. For the purpose of the example below I have called that folder 'pics' but you can name it as you choose.

This done, each time you want to upload a photo to the webspace you simply type the following in a browser:



Then you just drag and drop the pic from the folder in which you have it on your computer. A few moments later it will be in your webspace and available for use in a post.

The magic will take place when you type the img code into your next post. Assuming, for instance, that you want to post a pic of Rudi Caracciola, and that you have given that a filename 'rudi' and it is saved as a jpg file (careful here, some scanners tag it 'JPG' and everything is case-sensitive), then typing in the following will cause the picture to be downloaded into your post:



It is also possible for you to post pictures from other webspace than your own. If you find a pic on a site (somebody might intervene here to say whether or not this contravenes the copyright rules, but clearly if you want to re-use a Barry Boor pic in one of your posts and it's all right with Barry), you right click on that picture, click on 'properties' and highlight the URL of that pic, copy it and paste it between your image code brackets as shown above.

I really do expect that there will be a flood of Etzrodt pics soon swamping the available threads. It is easy, it's available to both of you (and others), and you will enjoy taking advantage of it.

....PS. You will also become very familiar with editing your posts as you will make frequent errors as you type in the URLs!.....

[Hans Etzrodt]

Ray,
Thank you very much for your explicit instructions. I will indeed pursue the posting of pictures very soon. By the way, this looks like the longest post I have ever seen coming from your direction.


Felix,
Thanks a lot. In case I do not succeed posting pictures within the next few days, I will take you up on your generous offer.

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
Please feel free to submit to my email address anything that you want posted, and it will be done!.

And of course you can get the same service from me, Hans!

While we are waiting on Hans' pictures lets start off with this one of Nuvolari, clearly showing the "famous" line. Note how he take the corner "Senna style" with the left wheel almost touching the wall.

[Bozothenutter]

wow guys i'm overwhelmed by all the response to this question, finally the first picture that shows the stripe clearly, this will really help the model
actually looking closely at the picture, i'm now wondering if the stripe is painted at all
looking at it blown up in photoshop it looks more like a strip of maybe metal or a ribbon, that is folded over itself downwards in front of the radiator, if you look at about the height of the hook in the '2' there seems to be a rivet in the strip.
what do you guys think?

[Doug Nye]

The Alfa 8C-2300 'Monza' - or 'Corsa' - cars taken to Monaco for the 1932 Grand Prix definitely had the lengthwise bands of contrasting colour continued behind the cockpit, along the shoulder-line of the tail cowls, and at the extreme tail where there is a short vertical 'knife-edge' the contrasting colour continues downwards perhaps 6-inches or so - OK, 15cm or so- before seeming to taper out into a pointed motif. I do not think this was bright metal applique trim. It looks like paintwork, and the apparent fold-over on Leif's lovely pic is probably a trick of tone in that particular rendition. Study the far side of the radiator cowl and it seems to contrast to the cheatline colour above it...

These were the first works short-front-spring 'Monza' cars. Simon Moore has forgotten more about 8C Alfas than most will ever know. He believes the three works cars at Monaco were cars '040, '041 and '042 but we don't know which of Nuvolari, Campari and Borzacchini drove what. Freddy Zehender ran his car '038 as a works-supported independent in such events outside Italy, while Caracciola's white-liveried car was probably chassis '039. Etancelin drove his early car '004 with a new frame and started from the centre of the front row I think. I have seen a pic of this car from above showing it had no lengthwise cheat-lines as discussed. Car '26' for Campari, '24' forBorzacchini, '28' for Nuvolari and '32' for Zehender all had the cheat-lines applied. Both Nuvolari's and Zehender's definitely had the lines along the tails - not so sure about the other two, no photographic evidence that I have seen. Oh yes - they have it too - just found pic.

The tone of the cheat-line, which contrasts sharply against the background red and still quite vividly against the white racing numbers strongly suggests either a blue or a green.

A yellow would probably not contrast so much against the white racing number - but a green might, as in the Alfa quadrifoglio badge perhaps?????

In other words - best of luck...

DCN

[Leif Snellman]

Those of you who happen to own Schlegelmilch's and Lehbrink's "Grand Prix de Monaco" can find three pictures of the lines (Nuvolari in each case) on page 32-34. Definitely painted lines , not metal
ribbons.

[Rob G]

While on vacation I stopped at the Motorsport Collector in Downers Grove, Illinois. They had a great selection of racing books, including several different ones presenting certain artists' paintings. I took notice of a painting of Nuvolari's #28 Alfa from the race in question. The stripe was painted sort of a dark yellow color in the painting. I don't know if this was artistic license, or if it actually was that color. And unfortunately I don't remember the artist who painted this, or the book it was in.

[Hans Etzrodt]

It was not Gotschke, who did a real nice rendition about Nuvolari fighting it out with the white Alfa. He decorared Carraciola's white car with a red stripe (which it never had in real life, at least not in Monaco!), then left the stripe off Nuvolari's car and wrongfully gave the red Alfa the number 6.

[Patrick Italiano]

Hi,

while I was off work and thus also off internet, I checked some pics. Indeed the stripes go round to the tail. Where the two stripes join, they are bent down in a Vee-shape and seem to run along the whole tail vertical part in single width. Zehender's car was the only one to have carried the same stripe again for the next French GP, while the "official" cars were probably repainted. I've also seen an artist redering with a kind of yellow stripe, but it's not a clue.

Will we ever know the right colour?... wait for the next episode.;)

[Eugen]

http://www.autocolle...?ref_no=ZAPGRS3

[Rob G]

The painting that Eugen posted above is not the same one that I saw, but it is painted the same color as the other one.

[Bozothenutter]

hey eugen that yellow stripe looks, good, and unless sombody who was actually there can tell me, or i'm able to find a contemporary race report stating the alfa's had a diffetenr colour stripe i might just use it!
now for those pl that were talking about pics of the rear end showing the stripe, where can I find then so I can use them as reference material?

and of course to everybody a thankyou!

sudesh

[Patrick Italiano]

The pics I've seen of the rear end are both in Simon Moore's book 'The Legendary 2.3'. It's a fantastic book, but a little bit expensive: $350.

If there's no other source, I might scan a pic for you, but not before next week.

[Bozothenutter]

wow that would be great!

[dmj]

I believe we have a few Czech members here. Some of them probably could contact Vaclav Zapadlik and see from what source he found that stripe was yellow. Zapadlik is fascinating artist and his pictures usually are well researched. When I was in school, some 15 years ago, we had an excursion to Prague and I managed to buy a Zapadlik prints book and a book on history of Czech cars mainly illustrated by him - both are still gems of my collection.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Does anybody know, what Tazio Nuvolari was
sucking up through the tube leading to his drinking
bottle? I cannot believe he drank warm champagne.
So, what was it?



Another look at the stripe of Nuvolari's Monza, this
time from the left side.

[Doug Nye]

Note the tonal contrast between the stripe and the white of the racing numbers. The tonal register of contemporary monochrome film can be very misleading, especially if the stock used was orthochromatic rather than panchromatic. This could have the effect of rendering not only dark reds and blues and greens even darker, but also had odd effects with yellows.

Study the Jack Fox Indy book with its thumbnails of the early '500' fields and you will find cars listed as 'yellow' in the entry details which look absolutely jet-black in the monochrome rendition - at least, you will if my demonstrably iffy memory is not playing tricks.

We have some movie footage shot on pan film which shows the self-same cars on the same occasion looking as light and bright as they really were.

I am convinced that this is at the root of the current Historic racing vogue for dark-maroon Alfa 'Monzas' and Tipo Bs.

A great Italian-American private collector compared notes with me on this last year and he came out with a lovely line, which I am sure holds immense truth. He simply said "Look, I'm Italian - NO WAY would we paint a racing car a subtle colour, we'd want it to be bright red, a red that shouts 'Look at Me'!".

I believe that the proof of this theory is the base colour found when he scraped back his 8C-2900B Mille Miglia sports car - bright red - when we accidentally snapped a paint flake off the ex-Hans Ruesch/Dennis Poore 8C-35 - just a smear of bright red left on the otherwise long-since stripped aluminium - and when Dave Uihlein had his ex-Indy Tipo B attended to - bright red, again.

Even should we accept that the works Alfa colour was marginally darker than, say, the Scuderia Ferrari shade (which it was NOT in Alfetta days, at least postwar), this makes the stripe tone on the 1932 Monaco cars indicative of, what???

A daffodil or mid-yellow would perhaps appear rather closer to the race number white tone.

A dense chrome yellow could perhaps match the tone recorded.

A medium to sky blue or a mid to bright green most certainly would.

What we need, plainly, is a mid to late octogenarian with a good colour sense and a wonderful memory, who happened to be there.

Not very helpful, I know, but I hope this might spur on further discussion and observation....

DCN

[Bozothenutter]

agreed, i'm a photogra[pher myself, and can add to the information , generally a either yellow/orange/red filter was used to increase contrasts in the films of the day, but then again they would have rendered the cars lighter instead of darker, although a yellow filter could have worked....
Race reports! that's what we need, with that elusive line..."bla bla alfa romeo's in bright/dark red with a xxxxx coloured stripe bla bla"

Btw where are those cars now, the cars actually used at that race?

Sudesh

[dmj]

What we need, plainly, is a mid to late octogenarian with a good colour sense and a wonderful memory, who happened to be there.

Prince Rainier?

[Doug Nye]

Coo - total genius dmj!

Trouble is that I have talked to His Serene Highness (stand up who thought the Grimaldis were a bunch of clowns?) in the past about Monaco GP memories and - in specific terms - it's hopeless......

DCN

PS - Where are the cars today? I believe that Zehender's '038 - or its descendant assembly - is with Oscar Davis in the USA - while if the three Monaco GP '32 works cars were indeed '040, '041 and '042, 'entities' identified today by those chassis serials survive with De Michelis in Italy, Hauberg in Denmark and the last I heard with Hayashi in Japan, but this last car might have changed hands recently. One thing I am sure of, the original 1932 body in every case is long gone - and Freddy Zehender's cheese sandwich is no longer under the seat of '038...

[Bozothenutter]

that cheese sandwich would be old enough to drive by now...........

[Hans Etzrodt]

At the opening post I wrote that Nuvolari "won that race, of course. Of course? Well, thanks to Caracciola's restrained driving tactics." ....and nobody picked up on this!?? I will bring my account of the race also here -where it fittingly belongs- Its the same story I had posted in the Nuvolari thread.
While it looked like an interesting race during the first 50 laps, the 1932 Monaco Grand Prix ended up as the battle of two giants. Then the race had not yet been reduced to the popular TV show it has become now and a full 100 laps were mandatory if one wanted to be counted. At this time it was considered a driver’s circuit as it is now. The whole event lasted just over 3½ hours and nobody had ever heard of television then. Mercedes-Benz had withdrawn from racing for 1932. Consequently their leading driver Rudolf Caracciola had changed over to then the top team, Alfa Corse, led by team manager Aldo Giovannini. No love was lost between Nuvolari, Campari, Borzacchini, the closely-knit Italian drivers, and their new teammate from Germany. Therefore

Caracciola drove a white painted 8C-2300 Alfa Romeo Monza, officially as an independent, battling Nuvolari in a similar red car throughout the latter part of the Monaco Grand Prix. Nuvolari had put on a murderous speed, while Rudi restrained himself in the first half. He had slowly worked himself to second place by lap 57 after having passed teammate Borzacchini and the Bugatti contenders Chiron and Varzi had fallen by the wayside. Then finally, the German left his foot on the throttle and the breathtaking battle between Caratsch and Tazio began, which was to last until the very end. The excited crowd followed the clash of the two giants with great enthusiasm and watched fanatically how Caracciola continuously reduced Nuvolari’s advantage, while both were lapping the rest of the field. Five laps from the end, on lap 95, the Italian slowed down as he entered the Casino turn when his main tank ran out of fuel. While Nuvolari furiously fumbled the lever to reserve, Caracciola, who for some time had been close behind, passed the red Alfa to the Italian's horror. After having watched Nuvolari beside himself with rage, about this turn of fortune, the German lifted his foot briefly and waved Nuvolari by. According to Caracciola, it would not have been very cooperative to pass Nuvolari, since they both drove for Alfa Corse. But Caracciola was not obliged to do what he did. There had been no team orders in this race and Rudi was not really part of the team, which had actually rejected him on account that they felt superior to the German, who had driven for years the monsterously heavy 7-liter SSKL. Nuvolari won. By 2.8 seconds. After the race the ‘Flying Mantuan’ spontaneously walked up to Rudi and silently pressed his hand. The furious crowd, however, had noticed that Caracciola deliberately lagged behind after he had caught up with Nuvolari and felt robbed of a classic duel.

Here an excerpt from A Racing Car Driver’s World, by Rudolf Caracciola, New York, 1961. Caracciola: “When I got out of my car there were jeers and whistles of contempt from the spectators. They felt betrayed, assuming that I had made a deal with Nuvolari. I left the car and went over to the pits. My mechanic came to me. ‘Why did you do that, Signor Caracciola?’ he asked. ‘I don’t know,’ I said. I felt miserable. After all, it was the first time the public had hailed me with jeers. Then I saw Giovannini coming toward me, holding out both arms. ‘That was decent of you, Caracciola,’ he said. ‘That was really decent. And I’m to ask you on behalf of the others, whether you’d like to be a member of the team.’ ‘And Campari?’ I asked. ‘He wants you too; he wants you too very much.’ Thus I became a member of the Alfa team.”

[Bozothenutter]

now that would be a good story to tell while showing the model......Hmmmmm
I might make it white, no red, no white........lol
another colour question....the wheels?
red or black?

sudesh

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Bozothenutter
.....white, no red, no white.....
.....the wheels? red or black?.....

I go for black on wheel rims, hubs and spokes on all factory Alfas at the Monaco race - just my gut feeling.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Here a related thread:
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=38338

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
.....He simply said "Look, I'm Italian - NO WAY would we paint a racing car a subtle colour, we'd want it to be bright red, a red that shouts 'Look at Me'!". .....

Doug - This kind of red?

[Doug Nye]

Yes Hans - that kind of red, short of fluorescent but tomato or British pillar-box (mail-box) red. This approximates very well to the red traces we found under later paint on real cars. I have one caveat - does your pic show the restored Tipo B in the Alfa Collection at Arese? If so this lovely old car was fantastically original and unspoiled - I really do mean unspoiled - until about ten years ago when suddenly the Museum people developed a restoration budget which they spent in the most brainless way possible - by doing a number on their older cars, stripping the paint off and respraying apparently in modern two-pack with high-gloss lacquer on top. This way they have ended up with Motor Show-standard cars which look like freshly unwrapped boiled-sweets (candy) and about as convincingly 'historic' as my Auntie Gus's brand-new Hyundai. Sometimes one simply weeps... Where do such companies find such irresponsible curators..... If ordered from above to do such a thing a proper chap would resign rather than see it happen on his watch...

DCN

[Hans Etzrodt]

.....does your pic show the restored Tipo B in the Alfa Collection at Arese?.....

There is no caption to this picture and I think it shows an inaccurate restoration.

[Doug Nye]

Hans - on pre-war racing colours I would add that yesterday I saw some of George Monkhouse's colour movie film showing the 1937 German GP and Coppa Acerbo, plus other races through 1938 and 1939. The Alfas are a bright, strong, flaring red - certainly not the deep, dark, wine colour beloved of some owners today - even allowing for the red or magenta set of that early colour film stock. We know that the Mercedes-Benz race numbers were a bright strong red - well ditto the Alfas' and Maseratis' body colour. Interestingly, in the 1937 German GP while the Mercedes carry red race numbers the one clear shot of an Auto Union that I saw plainly records a black racing number. Subsequent events see the AUs running with red numbers.

DCN

[Bozothenutter]

I just noticed somethong on the side shot of caratch's car, where did the oiltank go?
The kit has an oiltank under the chassis underneath the drivers seat, with the filler popping up around the chassis member.
God I need to do more research.....

for now I'm just working on the engineblock, reshaping the engine mounts, shortening the sump, lengthening the suppercharger, adding nuts and bolts everywhere......
the kit basically is a huge protar.......

[Patrick Italiano]

Originally posted by Bozothenutter
I just noticed somethong on the side shot of caratch's car, where did the oiltank go?
The kit has an oiltank under the chassis underneath the drivers seat, with the filler popping up around the chassis member.
God I need to do more research.....

From the first series to the second one, the oil tank position, and hence the cap, swapped side. You can well see on the pictures posted in the other thread (http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=38338)
that the oil cap and neck come out on the left side on Caracciola's as well as on Nuvolari's Monza. The Pocher kit should represent a second series car.

[Bozothenutter]

Thanks partick, I just noticed.
was out at the Paintshop today, checking over alfa colours, but it is hard to go for the bright red as doug suggested, I'm soo used to seeing the car in burgundy............
my brain has now been programmed to that colour as correct......, and the red is so....well RED...lol
especially as everything on thsese cars is body colour....
it will need a lot of weathering to bring out the detal and not let it dissapear into a sea of red.....

[paulhooft]

a pity the pictures are no longer there...
Paul

Edited by paulhooft, 17 August 2012 - 19:12.