197 replies to this topic

[rdrcr]

When we were at the Marconi Museum for the west coast get together, I noticed in an annex of the museum, (the garage area perhaps) a small fleet of vintage racers. One of which was the Kimberly Cooper. Paulb asked me if this was an F2, I wasn't sure at the time. So I did a bit a of research, and found that this car was specially prepared for the 1961 Indianapolis 500.

The car was powered by a 2.7 litre Climax engine. Some more research has indicated that it might be a one of a kind car. I found no other effort from Brabham for a car specifically to run at Indy. Was this their one and only effort? It seems that this car is fairly important due to its history and rarity.

It was owned previously by Philippe de Lespinay who had the car restored (I think) and was notably run at the Monterey Historics (in '88?) it was presumably was autographed at that time by Jack Brabham who drove the car there.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by rdrcr
When we were at the Marconi Museum for the west coast get together, I noticed ... the Kimberly Cooper. ...I found that this car was specially prepared for the 1961 Indianapolis 500.

The car was powered by a 2.7 litre Climax engine. Some more research has indicated that it might be a one of a kind car. ...Was this their one and only effort? It seems that this car is fairly important due to its history and rarity.

Umm - you better believe it.

As so many other TNF-ers will already be more than aware, Philippe de l'Espinay found the remains of the car in terrible condition after a hectic dirt-track career and ran a really admirable restoration programme on it with help, amongst others, from the great Quinn Eperley who I believe re-welded the holed original Indy-stamped 2.7-litre FPF Climax crankcase or block, plus other parts.

This was the first successful Formula 1-style rear-engined car to compete at Indy, Blackie is convinced to this day that he should have won in it but for a minor cock-up which cost him an extra fuel stop, and the car's performance triggered Dan Gurney's train of thought - via the Thompson car of 1962 - which brought in Chapman, Clark, Lotus, Len Terry and the Lotus-Fords...and which so far as the Indy Roadster establishment are concerned ruined Indy for ever more.

After Brabham's race with it as new in 1961 I believe that the car was acquired by Kjell Qvale and stretched to a now-enforced USAC wheelbase, and fitted with an Aston Martin 6-cyl engine. It was then entrusted to Pedro Rodriguez....then shuffled off into relative obscurity.

Somewhere I have a set of excellent pix from Philippe showing precisely what he acquired (which wasn't a lot, but what was there wuz choice!) and tracing the rebuild. This is not a car to revere, but it is indeed a uniquely historic car which commands high respect.

DCN

[paulb]

From the Marconi website. Not a good photo of the Cooper. Fourth car from the bottom. Car has been there for about 4 years.

From Electric Dreams:
In 1990, Philippe re-discovered the long-lost Cooper “Indianapolis” in Seattle, and restored it in record time for Sir Jack Brabham to drive it for the 30th anniversary of its appearance at the famous brickyard. This famous car broke the 50-year old stranglehold of the front-engine car in American racing. Below, Sir Jack takes the car for a spin at Indy in 1961

Philippe driving the glorious old car at Michigan International Raceway during the festivities for the “US 500” CART race.

[Ray Bell]

I never knew Jack had that thought....

He finished ninth, according to my memory, but I guess an extra fuel stop could have made a big difference. Anyone prepared to put the full scenario for an assessment?

[Roger Clark]

According to Brabham's column in Motor Racing, the problem was with tyres and it was planning to make too few stops.

He originally planned on making two stops. Vic Barlow of Dunlop told him that three would be needed and in the end Barlow was proved right. In the first stint, the tyres wore more quickly tham expected and he stopped after 42 laps. In his second stint he slowed and tried to ensure the tyres would last with just one more stop. He made his second stop after 110 laps, but it was not long enough to get him to the finish and he made a third stop after 177 laps. He felt that if he had planned to make three stops from the start he would have gone faster in the second stint and possibly finished sixth or seventh.

Later in the article he said that to win would require an "enormous" number of extra horses. He felt that you couldn't achieve that in a car the size of the Cooper and would probably have to have a bigger engine set at the front.

It is intersting to note that Brabham's average speed was 133.928 mph. At the Belgian Grand Prix a year earlier it was 133.63 mph.

[Ray Bell]

Nothing like an extra 157cc to help you along...

Yes, Roger, a very interesting point. So does he really reckon he could have won? Two different views here, I'm more inclined to think it wasn't possible.

[Buford]

1961 was my first year at Indy. The Cooper was woefully under powered. But it amazed everybody in the corners. On race day, Jack was never very close to the front. We sat in the Tower Terrace that first year which were the infield stands near the starting line. Every time we saw him, he was getting blown off down the straights. But he was getting it back in the corners which we couldn't see. But my main recollection of the car on race day was surrounded by massive dinosaurs getting passed on both sides, lap after lap.

[Doug Nye]

My maunderings above on the Indy C-C Type 54 came as a Knee-jerk reaction in surprise at someone here being unaware of such an important car's story. In simply clattering on the keys late at night I screwed up yet again, for 'fuel stop' read 'tyre stop' or just 'stop' in fact - but do remember that every Racer will instinctively tell you that in the races in which he was beaten he'd had another win sewn-up for sure...

Corner speed was certainly the T54's forte in Offy roadster company - Blackie's Turn 1 trap speed was the highest in the race, 143mph - 8mph faster than the quickest-cornering roadster. He did two laps at 146.104, but Foyt's winning Watson-Offy laps averaged 145.9 between stops, I believe. When the Kimberly-Cooper project had begun the race pace predicted in Cooper's original assessment of chances was around 138-139mph(again), and Jack had lapped Indy at 144.8 in his 2 1/2-litre F1 road-racing car. In fact initial race pace for the 1961 '500' proved much faster than the Anglo-American team expected. The crucial sector as Buford recalls was out of the Turns. From Turn 4 to the timing line the F1 car when tested had taken 11.7secs to cover that stretch, most roadsters were managing it fully 2secs faster. The extra punch of a 2.75-litre FPF engine had closed that gap...but not a lot.

Still a nice rebuild...

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Somewhere I have a set of excellent pix from Philippe showing precisely what he acquired (which wasn't a lot, but what was there wuz choice!) and tracing the rebuild. This is not a car to revere, but it is indeed a uniquely historic car which commands high respect.

If this was the first car to set the tone for the permanent change to rear-engine cars for Indy, why would it not be revered? Despite it's lackluster performance, it seems that it's importance in driving characteristics, better handling and aerodynamics would set a precedent in this case.

And, I noticed that you used the term rebuild... I don't want to get into another semantics discussion but given the fact that the original chassis / engine combination was intact and there was a documented history with the car that it would be a Restoration not a Remanufacturing by my definitions?

I looked at the car very closely and you are correct, it was very nice.

[Doug Nye]

Simply because there is NO point in becoming reverential to every 'nearly' car - it devalues the currency.

All-round greats are few and far between - and have to remain so.

By my estimation truly great rear-engined Indy cars don't even start until the winning 1965 Lotus-Ford 38 and possibly continue with Roman Slobodinskij's (how do you spell that?) Eagles and most definitely with the McLaren-Offy M16A. In terms of concept, design, build and competitive quality those cars had so few weak spots it hurts. Yet even they were never perfect - because that is not the way of man-made machinery.

DCN

[Carlos Jalife]

Neat story guys. Now can I have the Marconi Museum Address or phone or e-
mail or something?
I'd like to contact them for the Rodríguez Register which we have of all the car's we've found which the brothers used. Even if they are restored from the tachometer needle like Ricardo's FJ Cooper

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Somewhere I have a set of excellent pix from Philippe showing precisely what he acquired (which wasn't a lot, but what was there wuz choice!) and tracing the rebuild.

Originally posted by rdrcr
I noticed that you used the term rebuild... I don't want to get into another semantics discussion but given the fact that the original chassis / engine combination was intact and there was a documented history with the car that it would be a Restoration not a Remanufacturing by my definitions?

Good question - was the original chassis / engine combination intact?

Doug - was the original chassis part of what Philippe acquired? And could you post those pictures? The only information I have comes from Philippe's article in Victory Lane describing the rebuild and a brief correspondence with him later. It appeared that, although he had acquired everything that still existed, there was actually very little.

Allen

[Doug Nye]

Allen - basically No and No.

What Philippe acquired was indeed very little of a frame, but some choice right-source componentry even so, including the engine. If I can find the set of prints No and No might become No and "Yes here they are". But don't hold your breath. You've seen all The Stuff here...

There was little substantially recognisable of the original frame beyond some amputated tube lengths and jointed assemblies, say two or three of them from memory... no more than a foot long I believe, but this IS obscure memory of the pix. I was satisfied - however - that they were indeed from the correct car, the provenance fitted satisfactorily without, as I remember, being absolutely 100 per cent continuous. Circumstantially the story held together rather well, and I certainly do not doubt the right of that car to exist in its current form. As I said before, it's a lovely rebuild.

DCN

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Circumstantially the story held together rather well, and I certainly do not doubt the right of that car to exist in its current form.

Agreed - but can't help being curious.

Allen

[paulb]

Originally posted by Carlos Jalife
Neat story guys. Now can I have the Marconi Museum Address or phone or e-
mail or something?
I'd like to contact them for the Rodríguez Register which we have of all the car's we've found which the brothers used. Even if they are restored from the tachometer needle like Ricardo's FJ Cooper

Website http://www.marconimu...org/default.htm
Phone: (714) 258-3001
Good luck, they are extremely nice people.

[Barry Boor]

T.54 - can you solve a mystery for us, please? Not just me, but various other old anoraks have spent the last 43 years believing that the Indianapolis Cooper was painted in the usual works Cooper dark green.

Your car at Goodwood was dark blue......

Was it always blue or has it transmogrified somewhere along the way?

[T54]

Hi Barry,
I am so sorry that we did not meet... There will be another time, I promiss!

The car was indeed dark purplish blue, not "British Racing" green:



Indeed the works Cooper were rarely BRG. The 1960 F1 car was a much lighter green with a metallic tinge.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by T54
Hi Barry,
I am so sorry that we did not meet... There will be another time, I promiss!

The car was indeed dark purplish blue, not "British Racing" green:



Indeed the works Cooper were rarely BRG. The 1960 F1 car was a much lighter green with a metallic tinge.

Bit confused here. The Indy Cooper was certainly the same dark BRG that the works F1 Coopers used when I saw it do a demo at Silverstone.The lighter metallic colour was used by CT Atkins team that ran Bruce McLaren in Intercontinental formula. I still have video copied from my own 8mm cine film as evidence.

[Twin Window]

I'm not sure if this helps any, but...



Twinny

[Richard Neale]

Depends what colour the bricks were !!!!

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Twin Window
I'm not sure if this helps any, but...



Twinny

Not really.Now have 3 posts with same photo. Must be a trick of the light or photo processing. I have seen Orange Ferraris(and McLarens)due to the light on the dayglo paint they use.

[T54]

The Indy Cooper was certainly the same dark BRG that the works F1 Coopers used when I saw it do a demo at Silverstone.

Not according to our research and information that includes that supplied by Sir Jack himself.

And...



T54

Edited by T54, 15 December 2011 - 23:46.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by T54


You have NEVER seen the Cooper Indy car at Silverstone because it was NEVER there.
Regards,

T54

Sorry T54 but you are misinformed. I am looking at it now. 23rd British Empire Trophy Silverstone July 8 1961. Unfortunately I have no means of posting here,but I can assure you that I filmed it in the paddock between the F.Junior race and the main event.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by T54


You have NEVER seen the Cooper Indy car at Silverstone because it was NEVER there.
Regards,

T54

But I saw it, and we've talked about it before. Went round the circuit anti-clockwise IIRC

[T54]

Sorry T54 but you are misinformed. I am looking at it now. 23rd British Empire Trophy Silverstone July 8 1961.

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the added information. I really appreciate it.

The sole Cooper Indianapolis car ever built was finished April 28th, 1961 and was briefly tested the day after at Goodwood. It was then flown to Indy by Flying Tigers DC6B cargo plane and arrived in Chicago May 4th, 1961. It was trucked on an open trailer to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and arrived on May 5th, before Jack Brabham even made it there. After the race, its engine and the spare were used in the Cooper Monacos of Bruce McLaren and Jack Brabham for their terrific battle at the LA Times GP at Riverside. The car, as can be confirmed by the Speedway Museum, remained there until late 1962 when Kjell Kvale bought the chassis from Jim Kimberly and had Joe Huffaker install the Aston Martin engine that eventually ended in Project 215 in it. After it failed to qualify due to the exagerated power claim of this engine, the car was sold to a local racer in San Jose, California. Since May 1961, it NEVER left the United States until June 1994 when Lord March invited it to Goodwood for the Festival of Speed. This is very well documented today.
Also, regarding the color, here is an original panel as found (the car was NEVER repainted before we did so in 1991) and a shot of Jack before qualifying:





Also there are two color pics of the car in the beautiful Doug Nye/Jack Brabham book, "The Jack Brabham Story" on pages 132 and 133. One especially is very telling because it is very well preserved.
Best regards,

T54
PS: I am curious to find out which Cooper you actually filmed. Is it possible that they hastily made a mock-up from a F1 chassis to celebrate their success? Why would John Cooper not have told me during the nearly all-day reminiscence of the event I had with him in 1994?
After all, the Indy Motor Speedway has done the same thing for many years... and sure enough, their mock-up car is... green.

Edited by T54, 15 December 2011 - 23:47.

[Roger Clark]

In his column in Motor Racing, Jack Brabham described how he demonstrated the car at the British Empire Trophy meeting. He did not race. Here is a picture, taken from that article, of him going round the wrong way.

[Twin Window]

Yikes! That pic should be up for a caption competition!

[oldtimer]

Another picture with the dreaded X. Why??

[T54]

I am dumbfounded and one learns every day! This contradicts of course the info I had from both John Cooper, Jack and the Speedway records. So much for my research!

Thanks a lot for the info. However the car was NOT British racing green...

[rdrcr]

Regarding the color of the Kimberly-Cooper, much as I had suspected... but I thought I'd let Philippe answer that one. Interesting to read that it appeared (counter-clockwise) at Silverstone though!

I understand your disgust Philippe, too bad there isn't much recourse available to you. That was one expensive weekend, sorry to hear.

[Doug Nye]

Philippe -

I'm late on the scene with this thread but Blackie most definitely demonstrated the car at that Silverstone meeting...and in fact regretted he had not converted it to road racing suspension, adapted it to AvGas and run it in the InterContinental Formula BEmpTro race instead of his 'Lowline'. The car definitely returned to England after Indy to clear the US Customs bond.

Otherwise I must say I doubt the colour reference you have been using - I have always thought the car was the customary dark bottle-green version of BRG which Cooper used for its works cars -not your dark blue shade at all.

Sorry -

DCN

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Philippe -

Otherwise I must say I doubt the colour reference you have been using - I have always thought the car was the customary dark bottle-green version of BRG which Cooper used for its works cars -not your dark blue shade at all.

DCN

If it was indeed green....shouldn't one of us be able to find a magazine comment about a green car at Indy?

[T54]

Yes, my weekend at Goodwood was disappointing but the show was so great, the parties so good and the company so excellent, I still had a great time.

The car definitely returned to England after Indy to clear the US Customs bond.

Hi Doug! It was great to see you at Goodwood. I have great pictures of you to E-mail to you as soon as I format them. I understand the Customs thing now and it makes sense. The car must have been back to the UK for a fairly short time as the Speedway had it in the old museum, sans engine, in a picture dated September 1961. Also the two engines were of course used shortly after by Bruce and Jack at Riverside.

Otherwise I must say I doubt the colour reference you have been using - I have always thought the car was the customary dark bottle-green version of BRG which Cooper used for its works cars -not your dark blue shade at all.

I am afraid that too many period pictures from too many people contradict this. The picture in your own book page 133 says it all because it is not "sunburned" like many other pictures and shows the car to be blue, not green... If all the period color pictures show this car in a blue color and if it is a question of the pictures "aging", why then would not the pictures of all the T51 and T53s also show the cars in blue?

Here is another that is still very fresh:



The grass is green, the helmet is silver, the flesh is pink, what color is the car?

And another somewhat "burned":



It shows a dominant blue rather than green, would you not say, as well as the pictures of the body panels as found, still with the original paint. There was no other paint underneath and no trace of any sanding or prep. Once we removed the air intake that was designed to cool the water return line, we found the same exact greenish blue. Paul Page od ABC recalled being at the race and in the sun from far, thought that the car was black. he told me this after he saw the car at Michigan Speedway in 1995.

I think that one of the main reasons why the car was painted dark blue is that Jim Kimberly had warned John Cooper about the green color being a bad omen at Indy. This was also reported to me by Dr. Frank Falkner and Roger Ward. Dr. Falkner who was at Laguna Seca in 1991 said that the car's color was "perfectly as he remembered", blue in the shade, turning somewhat to green in the sunlight. So it is highly possible that the color was selected from "what was available" at the Cooper works or wherever the car was painted. The lettering on the side was hand painted at the Speedway the day before the race.

Of course, this "green thing" did not bother Jimmy Clark too much in 1965, but 1963 and 1964 DID bring bad luck to him. I am not superstitious a bit and do not believe in black cats and black helicopters. Just the way it was.
Best regards,

T54

[Doug Nye]

Hmm - I've been around colour photography and particularly printed colour reproduction long enough not to trust any of it as a true colour reference. Study colour repros of BRM dark lust. green and perhaps 90 per cent of them will tell you DEFINITELY that the cars were blue.

The thing I would not doubt is that the Cooper boys would have painted the car with whatever paint fell to hand. But I still suspect that paint was really Cooper's particularly dark shade of bottle green rather than dark bluey-purple. Dark enough, in fact, to explain the difference in effect between green grass and green Cooper...

Hmm again...I just wonder, that's all.

DCN

[Rob29]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by T54
[B]


Hi Rob,

With all due respect, you are absolutely wrong on this. I wonder what an offset, left-turn-only, 2.775cc car would do in a F1 race with 2.5-liter engine limit.Irelevant here i guess,but for the record,it was NOT a F1 (2.5 litre )race but was run to the short lived Intercontinental Formula(3 litres)so in theory could have started the race.

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Hmm - I've been around colour photography and particularly printed colour reproduction long enough not to trust any of it as a true colour reference. Study colour repros of BRM dark lust. green and perhaps 90 per cent of them will tell you DEFINITELY that the cars were blue.

The thing I would not doubt is that the Cooper boys would have painted the car with whatever paint fell to hand. But I still suspect that paint was really Cooper's particularly dark shade of bottle green rather than dark bluey-purple. Dark enough, in fact, to explain the difference in effect between green grass and green Cooper...

Hmm again...I just wonder, that's all.

DCN

Forgive a outsider's comment to what might be an obvious solution... Why can't you just call up Sir Jack and ask him? Surely he'd know how that car started its rather important life.

IIRC, that car has been autographed by Jack Brabham on its most recent paint job - funny, something wasn't mentioned then.

Anyway, IF the answer is dark green, then the car's color was changed at some point and no one had ever bothered to mention it.

Also, if in fact the color was changed, Philippe might want to change it back to the "original" whatever that was, and get it signed again, while the opportunity remains.

[Roger Clark]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rob29
[QUOTE]Originally posted by T54
[B]
Irelevant here i guess,but for the record,it was NOT a F1 (2.5 litre )race but was run to the short lived Intercontinental Formula(3 litres)so in theory could have started the race. [/QUOTE]
Except that it was running on alcohol.

As regards the colour, if Cooper had rurned up with an unlucky green car at Indianapolis, it would surely have been mentioned, as was the Lotus two years later. On the other hand, if the car had not been paited green, it might have been mentioned by the British press. As far as I am aware, there was no mention of either event in th British racing press. Which is the more likely dog not to have barked?

Perhaps rdrcr has the simplest solution.

[T54]

In fact, the car is kind of green in sunlight, kind of blue out of the sunlight.

But a fact remains that is common to ALL period color Cooper pictures: while the old, faded pictures of all the works F1 cars show ALL of them to be green, ALL the old, faded pictures of the Indy car show it to be blue.

Can anyone explain why?

Twinny "massaged" some of the pictures I sent him to his request to attempt to revive the original colors, and here are the results:









Twinny's comments after he sent me the pictures back and after I was kidding on the result:

"All I did was to try as best I could to re-balance the pics... Do you really think they've come out green, or were you kidding? I thought they looked predominantly blue, with the possible exception of the shot on the track taken from above which looks maybe 50-50. Having read your posts, that's what the light did to the car, isn't it? I simply went by the grass, pitlane tarmac and sky for references. The bricks were more of a guess, and the tyres were difficult as they look as if they've been driven through a clay-like dust or something! Tyres are normally one of my main benchmarks."

When we restored the car, we did lots of research to figure out why the car was not the color it should have been. We asked lots of people, and most said that they remembered the car to be "very dark, almost black" from their viewing positions. Jack told us that the car's color was "alright". Frank Falkner told us that the color was "just as he remembered". What else can I say?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
As regards the colour, if Cooper had rurned up with an unlucky green car at Indianapolis, it would surely have been mentioned, as was the Lotus two years later.

IIRC, Jimmy Jackson had some good runs at Indy in the late 40s and early 50s in a green car, so although there was a superstition it had not been THAT long since someone raced there - not so noteworthy?

Plus those who were superstitious maybe saw the car as blue and those who were British saw it as green?

Have to be honest, the pic of the car on the bricks looks green, the others look black.

[Barry Boor]

Ringing Jack up to ask him might seem a sound idea, but..... If he couldn't remember even OWNING a certain race car, what hopes would we have of him remembering the colour of another?

My guess is that he would say green - assuming that all Coopers were the same colour, as the rest of us seem to have done for nearly half a century.

[T54]

Picture for picture, please compare the pictures above (especially the ones revived by Twinny) with what we actually did to the car after color matching the original paint left on the body panels:



In any case, I do not see any way that this car was the same color as the works F1's. Also, somewhere I have a picture of both cars (the T53 "back-up" car that was raced at Riverside for the USGP and the Indy car) side by sidde in the Indy garage. The difference in color between the two is very clear even if the picture is indeed, faded. May be someone has color pictures from the 1961 Silverstone race? It would be interesting to see if by any chance, someone would have taken pics of the car in the paddock next to a works F1.
Best regards,

T54

[Macca]

I had a look through Motor Sport and Motor Racing mags for 1961 to see if DSJ or anyone said it was blue or green, but nothing was mentioned, even in Black Jack's columns and a feature in MR.

However, getting back to the Reg Parnell/Yeoman Credit cars of 1961 and 1962...............DSJ said in all the reports where he mentioned the colour that they were dark green/red, except an early race in 1962 where Big John's Lola was green and Salvo's Cooper was blue/red.

So now I'm even more confused. (But I wouldn't bother to repaint them again, Barry )


Paul M

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Macca
I had a look through Motor Sport and Motor Racing mags for 1961 to see if DSJ or anyone said it was blue or green, but nothing was mentioned, even in Black Jack's columns and a feature in MR.

However, getting back to the Reg Parnell/Yeoman Credit cars of 1961 and 1962...............DSJ said in all the reports where he mentioned the colour that they were dark green/red, except an early race in 1962 where Big John's Lola was green and Salvo's Cooper was blue/red.

So now I'm even more confused. (But I wouldn't bother to repaint them again, Barry )


Paul M

The Yeoman Credit/Bowmaker/Reg Parnell cars1961-67(Coopers,Lolas & Lotus 25s) were a bluish green shade as I recall. When they changed to BRMs they stayed the BRM green but with maroon noseband not orange.

[D-Type]

Some thoughts:

Green being considered 'unlucky' appears to be a primarily US superstition. After all, one of the possible origins of BRG is that Charles Jarrot was given 'lucky' green to offset his 'unlucky' number 13.

I once read that Masten Gregory was also rather superstitious about green cars so Coopers painted the works cars as dark a green as possible and told him they were black. So it is reasonable to assume that Cooper were aware of the 'unlucky green' superstition and hence painted the car in something 'not green'.

Roger's point about neither the US or British press commenting is valid. As is Ensign14's hypothesis that people 'saw' what they expected

I'm baffled by the crumpled panel posted by T54. I thought that the race car morphed into the (mainly white) Aston Martin engined car while the backup ended up in the Indianapolis museum. If this is correct, then where did the panel in the original colour come from?

On the helmets thread someone made the point that any dark shiny colour will photograph as blue if there is a blue sky around to reflect. So any photo is suspect.

Finally, given that 1 in 4 males is colour blind to a measurable extent, has anybody consulted a woman?

[Macca]

I think that this business of 'perceived colour' must be the clue; although DSJ said the 1962 Lolas were green, a cover of a 1962 'Motor Racing' shows Surtees in a..................blue one!


I haven't seen a colour pic from 1963 of a Parnell Lotus 24 or Lola, but 'Motor Sport' colour covers from 1964 and 1965 show blue Lotus 25s amongst the green Coopers, BRMs, etc., as does a colour pic in 'Lotus 25 & 33' by John Tipler.


I still think DCN should ask Tim Parnell (assuming Tim isn't among that 25%!).......or his missus?


Paul M

[T54]

On the helmets thread someone made the point that any dark shiny colour will photograph as blue if the pere is a blue sky around to reflect. So any photo is suspect.

But a fact remains that is common to ALL period color Cooper pictures: while the old, faded pictures of all the works F1 cars show ALL of them to be green, ALL the old, faded pictures of the Indy car show it to be blue.

Even after Twinny massaged the pictures on Photoshop, he could not bring the car to be green, even in trying to massage the color of the surrounding grass.
:

[Philip Whiteman]

The definitive answer, as keen photographers know, would be provided by a period Kodachrome transparency: this film was the gold standard in colour photography and Kodak used to claim that properly stored slides would not show a discernable colour shift for at least fifty years. Any reference to colour plates in books and colour photographic prints is, I am afraid, a complete waste of time.

That said, I have a copy of Gabbard's Indy's Wildest Decade in which the clour photo of Cooper number 17 (p.59) shows the car to be dark green, just as Doug has been saying.

[T54]

And I am just looking at the Dave Friedman book, "Indianapolis Racing Memories, 1961-1969", in which ALL the color pics of the car, pages 12, 13, 17, 18 and 19 show the car to be unmistakably dark blue... I also have another half-dozen other books showing color pics of the car, and in every one of them the car is blue, not green... but the grass on the sides is ALWAYS green.

[David McKinney]

An Autosport editorial during May expressed the hope that “a green car” might soon achieve success at Indianapolis, though this can no doubt be dismissed as a general term for a British car.
However, in his report of the race (in the 30 June issue), Skip Lange uses the words “little green Cooper”....

[T54]

Yes indeed, when in the sun, the car looks sometimes has green tinges. No arguing there!. BUT I believe that the comments made then were generalized as British cars are to be BRG. Also period cool, I mean groovy Ray Ban may have lied too...

What I do not accept is the notion that the car was painted in the same color as the F1's. If this was the case, then all the old F1 pics would show the T51s and T53s in blue, and it is rarely the case if at all, while ALL known pics of the Indy car show it to be...dark blue. Indeed I have yet to see ONE picture where the car is more green than blue. So if anyone has pics taken at Silverstone, please add it to this discussion if you feel like it will add evidence, thanks! The car will need new paint eventually... :
Regards,

T54