54 replies to this topic

[AMD]

in another thread, Peter has remembered an interesting incident from 1992:

Originally posted by lumepo03
Unfortunately I think that this type of behaviour will help make a better driver out of Juan as Michael is showing him his driving tactics. And very shortly the master will serve the pupil. I remember at the Brasilian GP, many years ago, Michael had the same thing done to him by Senna. After the race he complained very loudly about Senna brake testing him in the corners. What he was referring to was Senna backing of the throttle ever so slightly thus causing the following vehicle to do so. Senna did not finish the race that year (1993, I believe) but Michael did and quickly learned the style of dirty driving from Senna

I thought this strange driving by Senna in the Brasil GP 1992 was due to an intermittent electrical fault, from which he soon retired from the race, but Schumacher was very angry after the race, I think saying things like "these sort of things shouldn't be expected from a World Champion"???

[karlth]

Good point AMD. I remember Schumacher often complaining about Senna's aggressive tactics in the early 90s, they even had a fistfight in a Hockenheim testing session if I remember correctly.

It will be interesting to see how Montoya responds in Imola. He cannot do what he did last year after Canada and simply drive for safe points, he is a WDC contender now and has to show his mettle.

[tinman]

Is brake testing really a dirty tactic? I see it as clever way of maneouver to keep your opponents at bay. And besides, a Formula1 driver should have the skill and reflexes to enable him to cope up with such maneou vers.

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by tinman
Is brake testing really a dirty tactic? I see it as clever way of maneouver to keep your opponents at bay.

you're kidding right?

[420]

Of course he is not kidding, what do you think these people are doing out there???? Sipping tea while diving into a corner. No, they are RACING!! The object is to cross the finish line before your opponent, not make your opponent your best friend by letting him pass you. Look at Senna's legendary Monaco drive where he used braking and car position to effectively keep a faster car behind him for almost half a race. Believe me there was alot of "brake checking" going on there and there always will be when you are racing, think about the logic in being able to control when your opponent has to slow down and conversely when you can speed up. If you choose your moments correctly, you can force your opponent to slow while you jump on the gas, obviously these actions can be the difference between a win and a loss.

Originally posted by Kaiser


you're kidding right?

[AMD]

but was Senna "brake testing" Schumacher by lifting off the throttle, or was the engine stuttering?

[420]

"lifting" a little early, tends to have the same effect as braking, as engine torque will slow the car. As I remember Senna used a little bit of everything in that race to stay ahead (lifting, swerving, braking, chopping, whatever it took). I believe that was one of the best drives I have ever seen.

Originally posted by AMD
but was Senna "brake testing" Schumacher by lifting off the throttle, or was the engine stuttering?

[Kaiser]

Brake testing is dirty, and dangerious

[420]

Nope, just part of the game!

Originally posted by Kaiser
Brake testing is dirty, and dangerious

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by 420
Nope, just part of the game!

go smoke some more dope , brake testing just isn't cricket.

[theMot]

I love dope.

[420]

What!!! ... if I smoke dope I wouldn't be able to put 2 and 2 together and realize that you can get a significant advantage over your opponent by using your brakes to control their race... duh ..
Apparently, you have been watching the tea and cricket matches and not F1. I taped some races though if you want to check them out and see how the real racers drive and, yes, mentally and physically try and wear their opponents out while still finishing. Its actually quite exciting. Check out Motorcycle racing too, they do the same stuff there!!!

Originally posted by Kaiser


go smoke some more dope , brake testing just isn't cricket.

[Scoop]

Originally posted by Kaiser


go smoke some more dope , brake testing just isn't cricket.

its racing...

[Thunder]

Now give me a break.

Why would i belive a snob american who lost a battle with a faster car? Why everything other than MS' words are true? The man tought he was the best thing in the galaxy found out he was only a miserable human being and he is upset. Give him some time. He is too upset now.

[Kaiser]

This kind of poor sportsmanship is one of the things that is wrong with racing today. Thinking that it's accecptable to cuase someone to run into the rear of your car in order to gain an advantage is disgusting. The current drivers aren't the first to use these tactics though, I remember Rosberg being fond of the brake test, and it wasn't cricket then either, and not as accecptable as it apparantly is now

As for motorcycle racing/riding, I've been doing both since I was 5, and I watch plenty of racing, I bet you think Rossi is so cool because he flipped Biaggi the bird after passing him. I don't see to many brake tests in motorcycle racing, after all, you can get hurt on a bike. I watched Roberts and Hayden battle bar to bar in Daytona a few weeks ago, and don't remember seing them brake test each other, nor did Edwards and Bayliss ride dirty in Oz. They rode with class, good, hard and close

If you don't smoke pot, why did you choose the current hip slang term for pot as your nick?

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by Thunder
Now give me a break.

Why would i belive a snob american who lost a battle with a faster car? Why everything other than MS' words are true? The man tought he was the best thing in the galaxy found out he was only a miserable human being and he is upset. Give him some time. He is too upset now.

What American?

[senninha]

Jesus,

Senna had a SICK car (in 1992 normally a new car was unreliable) and was trying to saty on track with it !!!

MS, so dumb, didn't notice Senna's car had a problem.

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by Scoop


its racing...

No, it's dirty tactics.

[Blade]

Brake testing is a cheap shot of how to keep a faster opponent behind. Its a very dangerous too,,,people seems to forget the Melbourne GP where Ralf was launched into the air by hitting the rear of RB.. and last year we have JV going to the air .... two cases were results of drivers braking earlier than their usual braking point. I"m not sure what's their intention of braking earlier but if it's done on purpose with a faster car closing behind very fast, it could lead to a serious incident.

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by senninha
Jesus,

Senna had a SICK car (in 1992 normally a new car was unreliable) and was trying to saty on track with it !!!

MS, so dumb, didn't notice Senna's car had a problem.

MS is one of the smartest drivers ever, he just uses qeustionable tactics from time to time. Senna was at least as bad though,, both great drivers whos reputation will forever be marred by their dirty driving. What happened to honor man?

[George Bailey]

Honor? Like having a crash photo as your avatar. Don't think so.

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by theMot
I love dope.

Thats why you walk funny!!

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by George Bailey
Honor? Like having a crash photo as your avatar. Don't think so.

It's a photo of MS rising out of the crash sir. I liked the way he rose from the smoke, ready to get back in the car and fix what was wrong!!

[revvhead]

Im all for hard driving and racing, something that is obvious from my previous posts, But brake testing is not fair game. Not at the speeds they do. Baulking is ok, But not brake testing.

[George Bailey]

Originally posted by Kaiser


It's a photo of MS rising out of the crash sir. I liked the way he rose from the smoke, ready to get back in the car and fix what was wrong!!

My mistake, I assumed the worst. Please accept my apology.

[AMD]

Originally posted by senninha
Senna had a SICK car

Adelaide '94, Schumacher had a SICK car

[Kaiser]

NP George, I never thought about it as a 'crash' photo, I'm not a fan of crashes, maybe thats why I detest brake testing.

[TAB666]

Originally posted by Kaiser
This kind of poor sportsmanship is one of the things that is wrong with racing today. Thinking that it's accecptable to cuase someone to run into the rear of your car in order to gain an advantage is disgusting. The current drivers aren't the first to use these tactics though, I remember Rosberg being fond of the brake test, and it wasn't cricket then either, and not as accecptable as it apparantly is now

I dont think any driver would try to gain an advantage by getting hit from behind in 300kph ! Its just impossible to make it work ( if you try ). The thing Senna did was to brake more then he needed and accelerate later in the corner, that way the dvriver behind always got a bad corner exit and therfor harder to accelerate past Senna.
This tactic wassomething that they talked about on eurosport when they had F1.

Brake testing and smal lifts ( if that is what MS did ) isnt the same thing. Sure both are dangerous and shouldnt be used if the driver behind of you is a hot head ;)

[jsn3]

This MS´s tries to compare Ms´s dirty moves to As´s attitudes is simply ridiculous.

Senna had done some dirty things in F1, as the brake test in prost 1989 (?) Hock was the worst thing i know and saw as it was far way from the cameras and after the race Prost was desesperatelly looking for the telemetry datas and asked ( in fact he did not asked, he comunicated) for showing it to the whole world.

But MS´s in this isuue is head and shoulders above every other driver in every categorie. A ALL time Master of dirty and dangerous move. Macau 1990, Australia 1994, Jerez 1997, Brasil 2002, , etc etc etc

Comparing Senna to MS in this issue is the same as saying MH is as dirty as MS.

BTW, MH has done a very awfull move in Brasil´s start 2000 but saying that MH is as dirty as MS is nothing but Ms´s propaganda.

[tombr]

Could any of this be construed as an aguement that MS gave JPM a driving lesson in Brazil?

[freq019]

Originally posted by Kaiser


What American?

Citizens of North, South and Central America refer to themselves as Americans. So I believe the quote was in reference to montoya

[Peeko]

Originally posted by jsn3
This MS´s tries to compare Ms´s dirty moves to As´s attitudes is simply ridiculous.

Senna had done some dirty things in F1, as the brake test in prost 1989 (?) Hock was the worst thing i know and saw as it was far way from the cameras and after the race Prost was desesperatelly looking for the telemetry datas and asked ( in fact he did not asked, he comunicated) for showing it to the whole world.

But MS´s in this isuue is head and shoulders above every other driver in every categorie. A ALL time Master of dirty and dangerous move. Macau 1990, Australia 1994, Jerez 1997, Brasil 2002, , etc etc etc

Comparing Senna to MS in this issue is the same as saying MH is as dirty as MS.

BTW, MH has done a very awfull move in Brasil´s start 2000 but saying that MH is as dirty as MS is nothing but Ms´s propaganda.

Schumacher was a good student. He also had a good teacher.

[Smooth]

tough driving didn't start with Senna, and won't end with Schumacher.

[jsn3]

MS´s had raised the dirty game into levels never reached . I think there is a huge probability of Ms hurting seriously another driver.

[tombr]

I remember watching an interview of Stirling Moss some time ago and the subject was about drivers that were hard to pass. Stirling mentioned Jack Brabham as being particularly difficult because Jack would do things like intentionally drive off line to cause rocks to fly up at the car behind. I don't recall anything in Stirlings comments or tone of voice to imply that Jack was cheating or driving unfairly.

[tombr]

MS´s had raised the dirty game into levels never reached . I think there is a huge probability of Ms hurting seriously another driver.

I think there is a huge probability that you haven't been watching F1 very long.

[Peeko]

Originally posted by jsn3
MS´s had raised the dirty game into levels never reached . I think there is a huge probability of Ms hurting seriously another driver.

Yes you're right. Let's hope he wasn't watching Senna rear-end another driver at 180mph. We don't need that. He can win without having to wreck the other car's diffuser.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by jsn3
MS´s had raised the dirty game into levels never reached . I think there is a huge probability of Ms hurting seriously another driver.

You can make odds for fire shooting out of his ass too. He raced Mika wheel to wheel in F1 for years, and only at Spa 2000 do I recall them making contact. How many times did he and Damon bump cars? How many times was it Damon's over-ambitious 'race-craft' to blame? MS' races in the rules as they are written, as any driver should.

[davioissimo]

Originally posted by AMD
in another thread, Peter has remembered an interesting incident from 1992:



I thought this strange driving by Senna in the Brasil GP 1992 was due to an intermittent electrical fault, from which he soon retired from the race, but Schumacher was very angry after the race, I think saying things like "these sort of things shouldn't be expected from a World Champion"???

There's nothing wrong with it anyway if Senna went too slow he was welcomed to overtake him anytime he wished there's a difference between brake testing and being careful to keep someone behind you till you floor it out of the corner its a solution to loss of grip and being under threat, Michael was doing it to Ralf Sunday instead of going very fast into the last corner and running wide he went a bit slower there, perfect speed to then set himself to blast out of it on exactly the right line to carry the most speed out of the corner not into it as such, think about it ? Ralf had to wait too. Its just great driving from an experienced Champ and to be fair generally Schumacher makes wise moves they are protective moves and not too dangerous. I feel he's made a couple of little errors nothing to start this huge bashing you see all over the world.

[lumepo03]

I would like to thank AMD for continuing the theme. I certainly get the
impression that a great deal of you are certainly aware of what is
transpiring in F1 and seem to have a understanding of each others views.


What exactly is a brake test? The word/s BRAKE TEST conjures up the
word/s SHOCK ABSORBER. It really has nothing to do with the brake pedal
at all. If one looks at the aerodynamic efficiency of a F1 car you will see
that they are akin to that of an ACME brick. Let of the accelerator at
speeds of 100 MPH (150 KPH) and you will pull more Gs then wehn you
finally go for the brake pedal. I do not want to get into mathematical
formulas as that is going to be to open to discussion. If one slightly depresses the accelerator then the effect it has on the forward velocity
is quite dramatic. Enough so for the person trailing this vehicle to accuse the drive of BRAKE testing them.

Now the question of dirty tactics has been with us since the advent of motor racing. Some driver seem to employ it more then most. This is
unfortunate as they have talent galore, but I can understand that in the heat of the battle many things transpire. I was saddened by what happened
in Brazil to Montoya, but Juan knew better. Now he will not make that mistake again. Unfortunately, Michael is almost out of dirty tricks that
are passable. Does this raise the stakes of the game? I hope not for the
person you hurt will probably be yours. I remember many years ago, in drag racing, there was a lady driver who was accusing a fellow competitor of
attempted murder. Top fuel was the category and Jolly Rancher was the sponsor. I do not know what happened with the case.

With Imola next on the calender. The italian authorities will certainly have a say so in matters if there is to be an escalation of these tactics
which result in a serious injury.

Peter

[tombr]

What exactly is a brake test? The word/s BRAKE TEST conjures up the word/s SHOCK ABSORBER. It really has nothing to do with the brake pedal at all. If one looks at the aerodynamic efficiency of a F1 car you will see that they are akin to that of an ACME brick. Let of the accelerator at speeds of 100 MPH (150 KPH) and you will pull more Gs then wehn you finally go for the brake pedal.

Bricks do not generate thousands of pound of downforce and going for the brake pedal does generate more Gs than _not_ going for the brake pedal. I see that you have technical knowledge akin to that of an ACME brick.

Brake test conjures up shock absorber???

[lumepo03]

Yes, you are correct in assuming that a brick is aerodynamically more efficient that a F1 car. Coast down tests that have been performed on
have shown that letting off of the acceleratorat 100 MPH creates more
deccelerative forces than when actually stomping on the brake pedal.
That is to say take your foot off the accelerator and then stomp on the brake you will pull more Gs just taking your foot off the "GAS". As to my technical knowledge not being greater then that off a ACME brick, well your
opinion is matched only by your lack of knowledge of me. I certainly look forward to making your acquaintance when you attend your next race. Look for me, I am the one with the ACME shirt.

Cheers, Peter

[Carsten]

Originally posted by revvhead
Im all for hard driving and racing, something that is obvious from my previous posts, But brake testing is not fair game. Not at the speeds they do. Baulking is ok, But not brake testing.

'Brake Testing' is just something that gets mentioned in places like this forum - I don't think any of the F1 drivers think that any 'Brake Testing' went on. Baulking maybe, but thats about it.

When JPM runs into the back of MS, JPM fans believe the only possible reason is, 'brake testing'.

[AMD]

Originally posted by davioissimo
Michael was doing it to Ralf Sunday instead of going very fast into the last corner and running wide he went a bit slower there

This is wrong. All Michael had to do to stay in the lead was to get the last corner perfectly right, and he was braking later and better than Ralf, and making no mistakes under acceleration.

[AMD]

Originally posted by lumepo03
Coast down tests that have been performed on
have shown that letting off of the acceleratorat 100 MPH creates more
deccelerative forces than when actually stomping on the brake pedal.

lifting produces a big slowdown force that would be non-linearly proportional to the speed, whereas carbon disc braking brings a much larger force which I guess is non-linearly inversely proportional to the speed. My guess is the aero forces would be so strong that lifting at 225mph would decelerate faster than using the brakes at 225mph, but the reverse would be true at 100mph.

[Mat]

Does anyone remember the exact quote that Schumacher said regarding Senna that AMD mentioned in his original thread??

Mat

[berge]

Originally posted by Mat
Does anyone remember the exact quote that Schumacher said regarding Senna that AMD mentioned in his original thread??

Mat

something along the lines of "he was doing inappropriate things which surprised me coming from a world champion. I think it is wrong."

If anyone could dig up spa 2000 on video. specifically, onboard footage from hakkinen on the lap before he passed schumacher. it is very similar to what happened in brazil 2002.

only difference being that mika's wing did not fall off, and he managed to pass the next lap.

oh, and, he didn't complain about it.

mind you, I think mika already knew what to expect from michael in a race situation after he read michael's comments about what REALLY happened between them in Macau.

[420]

420 is the number on my race bike!!! I chose it for my own reasons, though there is nothing wrong with the wacky weed...;)
And yes we DO brake test in MC racing... we also use the infamous "lift", "swerve" and "lean" to force our opponents to act the way we want them to!!!!! It is done MORE in car racing obviously, because you have the rearview mirrors which allow you to KNOW the exact position of your opponent. Think about what you said young jedi, NOONE wants someone running into the back of your car, as obviously that ends your race and defeats your ultimate objective (crossing the finish line ahead of your opponent)!! What you have to assume while racing is that the person behind you is actually paying attention and has the same objective as you. Sometimes the red mist rules and people make mistakes, the higher up you go the less this happens, hopefully!!

FYI - in MC racing, since the bikes are smaller the "brake testing: (in which I will including "lifting" early) mainly occurs in the tight corners where you can get the extra second of throttle on your opponent. I seem to see it in alot more places in car racing, again must be because of the mirrors. Also, doing that is not dirty, its something that these guy know about, do and accept on a regular basis.

Originally posted by Kaiser
This kind of poor sportsmanship is one of the things that is wrong with racing today. Thinking that it's accecptable to cuase someone to run into the rear of your car in order to gain an advantage is disgusting. The current drivers aren't the first to use these tactics though, I remember Rosberg being fond of the brake test, and it wasn't cricket then either, and not as accecptable as it apparantly is now

As for motorcycle racing/riding, I've been doing both since I was 5, and I watch plenty of racing, I bet you think Rossi is so cool because he flipped Biaggi the bird after passing him. I don't see to many brake tests in motorcycle racing, after all, you can get hurt on a bike. I watched Roberts and Hayden battle bar to bar in Daytona a few weeks ago, and don't remember seing them brake test each other, nor did Edwards and Bayliss ride dirty in Oz. They rode with class, good, hard and close

If you don't smoke pot, why did you choose the current hip slang term for pot as your nick?

[AMD]

Originally posted by 420
FYI - in MC racing, since the bikes are smaller the "brake testing: (in which I will including "lifting" early) mainly occurs in the tight corners where you can get the extra second of throttle on your opponent.

DC vs MS, Suzuka hairpin 1999, MS said 10 seconds!!

[420]

I have raced against people that do the same thing... it is amazing how goal orientated you become after the green goes...;)

Originally posted by tombr
I remember watching an interview of Stirling Moss some time ago and the subject was about drivers that were hard to pass. Stirling mentioned Jack Brabham as being particularly difficult because Jack would do things like intentionally drive off line to cause rocks to fly up at the car behind. I don't recall anything in Stirlings comments or tone of voice to imply that Jack was cheating or driving unfairly.