23 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Found it - gentlemen, meet the business end of the Guidobaldi F1 radial - looking at it now it looks rather more like a nine than an eight, but I certainly wrote down eight at the time...I was out on my feet then, for reasons I will not go into here.

This single print was in the Scott-Brown file (everything here must be filed under 'P' for 'Photograph' I think). There are some shots somewhere showing the suspension systems but they have yet to surface.



Whaddyathink?

DCN

[fines]

to me it certainly looks like an eight. what year was it again, btw?

[David M. Kane]

Can I assume this an adaption of some sort of aircraft engine?

[bschenker]

also to me looks like an eight.
In the professional school (in the 60) wee learned a radial engine have always odd number of cylinders. About this I have founded a site:
http://cincinnati.com/ageless/faq.html

I have also learned a five or ten cylinder in line, opposed or v-angle have to match vibration for application and today you can find this solution also in serial cars. Lucking the photo for my lucks like one of these solutions outside the normal theories to buildings engines.

[Wolf]

Thanks for posting the pic Doug. First, regarding suspension, I must say that it doesn't explore the possibilities of the concept too well and that mine is still simpler but I still haven't gotten around to making a model to show all disbilievers...

Re. the engine, I'd say that it looks like 8 to me and would stretch my guess to say it very well could be purpose built two stroke (aircraft engine would have, AFAIK, intakes and exhausts on opposite sides of cylinders*- and this one has both on the bottom side). In that case (8 cyl radial engine) firing order would be quite unfavourable for heat dissipation- for there would be no skipping of cylinders but the order would have to be 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8. But if I were to make such engine, I'd make crankshaft with two throws (instead of commonly used only one), which would allow more favourable firing order of 1-6-3-8-5-2-7-4. Of course, that would require special connecting rods that were sometimes used when V engines were made with symmetrical banks (no shift between 'opposed' cylinders).

Speaking of oddball radial engines, whilst skimming through my Bible for radial engines with even no. of cyls, I came accross one Soppit engine that had 6 cyls, but was a bit on the weird side- it had 'rotating' valves where the head was in one piece and cylinders rotated in opposite direction of the crankshaft and there was one cylindrical rotating slider between the two... And there is rather unusual Taurus engine (2x7cyl) with two banks, but there is angular shift between them so that head-on engine looks like 14 cyl engine, rather than 7.

* like Monaco-Trossi, for example

[Rainer Nyberg]

Yes I agree with Beat, radial engines have odd number of cylinders (per row). And this seems to be a nine cylinder.

[bschenker]

Sorry but I think is one of this unusual engine. Luck to the cylinder on the right side (lucking the photo), oriented light to the suspension, is exactly opposed on this on the other side. Also the two ?ignition distributors (Zuendverteiler in German) lucks the same. On this in front I can count eight spark cables, two for cylinder. Must by an eight cylinder.

[Wolf]

Again, I hope Doug won't mind me butchering another one of his pictures, but it's demonstration time...



OK, I didn't bother with perspective view, but I think it provides enough to show it's 8 cyl engine.

[Doug Nye]

Fantastic - so maybe I was not as muddled as I thought I might have been....

[Rainer Nyberg]

Okay, seems like there has been built radials with even number of cylinders...

There even seems to be one such in production today. http://www.zoche.de

[Wolf]

Rainer- note that it is two-stroke too. The odd number of cylinders is mandatory for four-strokes because the cycle is two revolutions, whereas with two strokes this is not the case- the firing of neighbouring cylinders is not so much of a problem.

[RDV]

Doug , re frescobaldi f1, suspension , is this a rubber sprung high-pivot swing axle ?

[Doug Nye]

I don't know about the Frescobaldi F1 - the Frescobaldi bros I recall from the early '60s, Piero got bumped off, poor chap, at Balocco???? - the Guidobaldi is a high-pivot swinging arm muddle visible in my pic, locating the foot of the hub-carrier, while the interlink upper tube seems to rock through a lateral arc, sprung and damped on what look like the rubber blocks or bellows attached to that tall centre frame. This was arranged in order for the wheels to bank into the turns as previously described in the original Guidobaldi thread.

DCN

[RDV]

sorry Doug, in-joke , thought you knew it , will forthwith search Guidobaldi thread... thanks

[dbw]

is it just me or does that look like a blower at the front? ..it has two axial sections and appears to feed into the red intake ring below...seems to have a popoff valve as well...also there appears to be four white exhaust pipes out to the side that appear to come from the cyls.....are there five on the other side or four?[i think that in the photo the cylinders look 180 degrees opposed-thus an even number]....altho it appears to be a two stroke,there seems to be a single rocker arm with a push rod on the top of each cyl.it's strange to see the exhaust port so low on the cyl if indeed the red ring is the intake,rather high...it sort of reminds me of early rotarys that were sort of two strokes...the crankcase was used as an intake manifold[via reed or rotary valves] and the mixture was forced thru the crankcase and an automatic poppet valve in the piston[as it decended] into the combustion chamber..after ignition, a pull-rod actuated a valve in the head via a rocker and the exhaust went into the cowel ring with no manifold per se....the carb sat between the pilots legs and the mixture was controlled with a big needle valve...with no throttle,engine speed was controlled with a kill button....if you watch old footage of sopwiths on the ground,huge puffs of smoke can be seen coming out under the engine cowel..this is the pilot cutting the ignition to keep the revs down...the smoke comes from the castor oil/fuel mix that lubed the crankcase innards.[as well as the poor pilots intestines]..as an aside, ignition was accomplished with a spark coil and a single electrode plug..the piston had a tit on the top and when the two got close enough,the ignition spark jumped...have we come a long way or what?

[GIGLEUX]

Now that old threads are open, some pictures of the Guidomobile, at the time it was still in its creator's workshop. Eight cylinders, two stroke, 1100 cc, twin ignition, two carbs, two superchargers. F.Guidobaldi claimed 180 hp at 6500 rpm from his engine.









As mentionned by Doug, the wheels banked in the turns, a concept mainly developped in Germany before WW2 with Werner Wunch (Berliner Welle), Neander.

[JB Miltonian]

I see that the Sports Car Graphic cover was mentioned in the other thread but never posted, so here it is. This is from March/April 1960, photo credit is given to Sven-Ake Nielsen, there are also four B&W photos in the short article inside.

[Peter Morley]

There's an article on the Guidomobile in this weeks (16 Sept 2010) La Vie de L'Auto.
Mr Guidobaldi's radial 8 cylinder F1 (1.5 litre supercharged) car has been restored!!
Boeing 777 pilot David Humbert bought it from the Mougins museum in 2009 and has just finished restoring it and will be testing it soon.
Amazingly he discovered that Mr Guidobaldi's daughter lived on a few kilometres from him and she has been reaquainted with the car and provided him with a lot of documentation.
There are plenty of pictures but I suspect I'd end up in trouble if I copy and post them...

[Peter Morley]

Just found some more photos on Autodiva (naturally!
http://www.autodiva....p...15&start=40

Edited by Peter Morley, 14 September 2010 - 16:45.

[bradbury west]

What a hero this Mr Humbert must be, and to see the car with a replica body. Has the car the 2 superchargers now? Other threads show my previous postings on M Guidobaldi's work. I am surprised to hear that he started it pre WW2 as I thought it was post war, although his 10 cylinder 2 stroke radial was from 1932. It may have been that he needed something to occupy him after he ceased ?? to be the mechanic for Benoit Falchetto.

In terms of period photographs, perhaps Maurice Louche has some in his collection.
Roger Lund

[bradbury west]

Is it possible for Jean-Maurice to re-post the photos from post 16?
Roger Lund

[Alan Cox]

If anyone wants a scan of the excellent "La Vie de L'Auto" 4-page article referred to by Peter Morley, PM or email me your email address.

[bradbury west]

As this device has been mentioned in another thread recently, "quirkiest f1 car" etc, I thought I would enquire whether there is any more news of the Guidobaldi, post restoration. The owner is a real hero to take on such a device, sans bodywork too at Mougins when I saw it, unless it was in storage.

In terms of tilting wheels/chassis, don't forget that the Arnott sports car at le Mans in the mid 50s had a similar intention/mechanism, although the level of tilt was limited by straps ISTR

Roger Lund

[plannerpower]

The Guidobaldi was, according to this report, alive and well in March 2014;

 

http://blog.axisofov...d-race-car.html

 

A quite remarkable machine.