Jump to content


Photo

Looking for a photo of Muller?s Ferrari 512M #1008 and P Rodriguez


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#1 CSGPR

CSGPR
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 15 April 2002 - 18:09

Hi everybody

I have been looking for a photo of Herbert Muller’s Ferrari 512M #1008 and Pedro Rodriguez at the 200 Meilen von Nürnberg, Norisring back in 1971. Can somebody help me out here.

Best regards

Christian

Advertisement

#2 byrkus

byrkus
  • Member

  • 766 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 15 April 2002 - 18:28

Is that the car in whice P Rodriguez died?? :(

#3 CSGPR

CSGPR
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 15 April 2002 - 19:17

Hi again


Yes it was, a said story :cry: He was a very special driver one of the best all-round drivers the world have known

#4 McRonalds

McRonalds
  • Member

  • 444 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 16 April 2002 - 10:20

Hi Christian,

I have a series of pictures from Pedros fatal accident - I don't know if you are interested.

Do you know the starting# of the car? And who entered the car at the Norisring?

#5 CSGPR

CSGPR
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 April 2002 - 15:49

Hi McRonalds

Yes it sounds nice, the car # was 26.

Best regards


Christian

#6 CSGPR

CSGPR
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 April 2002 - 16:09

Hi once more


The car was entred by Herbert Muller who also to part in the race the in a 512M. #1044 start No. 70. I think Mullers team had a name but I can't find it, maybe someone else can help us out with this question


regards

Chr.

#7 McRonalds

McRonalds
  • Member

  • 444 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 16 April 2002 - 18:22

Hi Christian, here are the pictures of Pedros fatal crash at the Norisring (I have to mention I live not far away from that ring - an awful place - a former Nazi deployment area). I decided not to post them online and just create a link - so everyone who is interested can load them down. The reason is simple: it's a series of sad pictures - but anyway it's part of motorsport.

www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_1.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_2.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_3.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_4.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_5.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_6.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_7.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_8.jpg

It's a sequence of 8 pictures showing crash from the beginning until the car was brought away from the scene. Pedro hit a concrete wall, and in the first picture you can see that immediately when he hit the wall there was a splash of fuel from the split fuel tank and in the second picture - taken seconds after the first - the car was already on fire. You also can see that a Porsche 908 made a spin on the oil and fuel from Pedros Ferrari.

Here's a picture of the already mention #1044, owned by Herbert Mueller Racing from the 1000km race at the Nurburgring. The same car was entered at the Norisring and in both cases it was sponsored by rolanaflor - as was Pedros car at the Norisring.

Posted Image

#8 rolando

rolando
  • Member

  • 151 posts
  • Joined: March 00

Posted 16 April 2002 - 18:43

a tremendous accident :cry:

#9 CSGPR

CSGPR
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 April 2002 - 19:05

Hi McRonalds.


Sad pictures as you said, :cry: but it most certainly cleared the question I have had regarding the accident. There have been way too many wrong stories going on about this accident. One of them claimed that it was all happening in heavy rain, and yet it was one of the warmest days of the year. Another story says that Rodriguez was hit by a slow running car. All complete nonsense.

What I didn’t know was that Leo Kinnunen, who was Pedro Rodriguez team mate in the Gulf Porsche team in 1970 was actually on the seen when it happened. He is the driver in car #11 a Porsche 917 Spyder entered by AAW Racing Team. It was indeed some useful information.

As said pictures, but they served a purpose because. Now I know

In the memory of on of the greatest all-round racing driver of all time.

Best Regards

Christian

#10 cjpani

cjpani
  • Member

  • 2,456 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 17 April 2002 - 01:24

Originally posted by CSGPR
Hi McRonalds.


Sad pictures as you said, :cry: but it most certainly cleared the question I have had regarding the accident. There have been way too many wrong stories going on about this accident. One of them claimed that it was all happening in heavy rain, and yet it was one of the warmest days of the year. Another story says that Rodriguez was hit by a slow running car. All complete nonsense.

What I didn’t know was that Leo Kinnunen, who was Pedro Rodriguez team mate in the Gulf Porsche team in 1970 was actually on the seen when it happened. He is the driver in car #11 a Porsche 917 Spyder entered by AAW Racing Team. It was indeed some useful information.

As said pictures, but they served a purpose because. Now I know

In the memory of on of the greatest all-round racing driver of all time.

Best Regards

Christian


First of all, McRonalds, thanks for the pictures. I have never seen this particular sequence.

Christian: indeed, Pedro´s death (as well as his younger brother Ricardo´s accident) has always been involved in mysteries and nonsense.
I will try to clarify apoint, based on the info i have gathered; the "slow car" issue.

Pedro was driving flat out -as usual- when he exited the turn, and found a slow car in his way. He swerved to try to avoid it, but the accident was irremediable. Some sources claim that Pedro never hit the slow car; others say that a paint mark of such slow car was found on the wrecked 512, but it wasn´t a hard contact.

The point is that Pedro, in his effort to try and avoid hitting hard the slow car, swerved hard, and hit the wall, car bursted into flames and the 917k of driver Kurt Hild could not avoid the wreckage and tit it hard. I had this story straight until McRonalds showed up with this pics. There is no sign of Kurt Hild´s 917.

Anyone have some other theory???

Indeed one of the best racing drivers of all time. And my personal hero

best regards from Mexico City,
Carlos Pani

#11 CSGPR

CSGPR
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 17 April 2002 - 07:05

Hi everybody


I have an eyewitness report which says that Rodriguez Ferrari suffered from a puncture or a suspension collapse, as tyre smoke was seen as I recall from the left front wheel, the marshal who notice it was actually the same man who seconds later drag Rodriguez from the burning car and suffered some burns in the process.

The marshal told his story to Nürnberg Nachricthen on the same day as the accident took place, so there should not be any slip in his memory. The other stories like the “slow car story” I believe do not stand. Many things supports this such as 1. A name of the driver have never been listed. 2. The number of the car has never been mention.

When I return home this afternoon I will look it up and then be back.

Regards

Christian

#12 Jeremy Jackson

Jeremy Jackson
  • Member

  • 479 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 17 April 2002 - 10:41

As a fan of Pedro, and an inconsolable 13-year-old when he died, can I just add my twopenny-worth.

Reports at the time had either the puncture/component failure theory, or the one that seemed to last, the fact that he tried to avoid Kurt Hild's Porsche (which was a 906 incidentally, not a 917), and hit the bridge parapet. I believe I read (in Autosport I suppose) that in the weeks after the accident, Pedro's father was to take criminal action against Hild. Someone I hope can confirm or deny that, after all it's 30 years ago, and I don't have the article any more.

The photos were new to me aswell, thanks for bringing them to our attention.

#13 Carlos Jalife

Carlos Jalife
  • Member

  • 322 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 17 April 2002 - 16:14

Guys, here's an artcile I wrote last year for Pedro's 30th anniversary of passing on to a different life. It has been published in places all over the world (and plagiarized too since I even found it in the spanish version in some south american country under someone else's name ).
And Don Pedro (dad) never took action against Hild, he fully knew it was an accident .
Great set of pictures, but #9 is the one most commonly known (Mc you have it, don't you?) with the cars streaming past and the marshalls trying vainly to put out the fire.
The cause will never be established but the car "lives" on in Rob Dyson (sports car owner/driver) who built a replica using the original engine and transmission and has it somewhere in the USA.
In the biography, the article is much longer, but I had to cut it out because it is hard to translate when your eyes are full of tears, and I can never finish it, it kills me everytime, and I'm 43.


Nuremberg: A Sunday 30 Years Ago
by Carlos Eduardo Jalife Villalón -Scuderia Rodríguez - México
(Taken from the biography "The Rodríguez Brothers" soon to be published)
In Nuremberg, the second Sunday in July is race day, just like Memorial weekend at Indy or mid-June weekend at Le Mans. It is a long held tradition and although nowadays we see the DTM Touring cars, there were times when faster cars would run there. 30 years ago this Sunday, the Nuremberg 200 Miles were run, a race belonging to the Interseries championship for Group 7 cars, the continental equivalent to Can-Am. The organizers tried to get Pedro Rodríguez to race, he was a box office magnet, but couldn't get him to agree until Herbert Müller, a swiss driver who owned 2 Ferrari 512 prototypes -bought from Steve McQueen after he finished filming his Le Mans movie- said he would try. The mexican driver, 31 years old, was recently crowned as driver champion for a second consecutive year in the World Makes Championship running for the John Wyer Automotive team, using the brutal 5-liter Porsche 917K, having vanquished Ferrari and Alfa completely. Pedro had scheduled a Can-Am race for BRM but his car wasn't ready and when Herb called he was looking at a rare free weekend. Herb, who ran the sicilian Targa Florio with Pedro a few months ago, offered one of his Ferraris. Pedro agreed but asked for a retainer because he knew his name would strenghten the box office take enormously. The organizers agreed to give him a payment of over 5,000 dollars and Pedro simply announced to his teams he would race at Nuremberg. Nobody really objected, nor Wyer nor BRM, because they had nothing planned for him and they knew Pedro considered a non-racing weekend as something akin to torture.

Pedro went alone to Paris, left his Porsche 911 in a friend's house and went to Germany, arriving friday night to the hotel Müller reserved for him. In Nuremberg he checked the circuit, the Norisring, during Saturday practice. It's an easy track, good for high top speed since it resembles an inverted `L' with hairpins on either end, one very wide and the other extremely narrow, measuring 3,940 meters (2.455 miles). Probably its most interesting feature are the old, slowly decaying, concrete stands -where Hitler would supervise the marching nazi youths a few decades earlier. The track runs in front of these stands and behind too, making a small `S' turn which has a bridge allowing access to the stands right at the "S" corner. It is an extreme track, high speed in the straights and heavy braking in the hairpins, medium speed average, no problems. After first practice in his 512M, Pedro was delighted with the car and said "With this one, let's see someone dare to beat me" and his old love for Ferrari shone again. Among the drivers, there are some famous names and some drivers he has lapped time and again in Sport car races: one is his former teammate Leo Kinnunen with a Porsche 917 spyder -who would say before practice begins that "the `S' turn with the bridge is stupidly dangerous"; Müller in his 512M; Peter Gethin who had lost his Can-Am seat to Peter Revson but has a McLaren run by Sid Taylor for Castrol; Chris Craft with a McLaren M8E from Ecurie Evergreen of Alain de Cadenet; Jo Bonnier in his Lola T220; George Loos in another M8E with an 8.1 liter engine; Teddy Pilette in another M8E belonging to team VDS, new mount after crashing an M8C at Zolder; and some other minor drivers. When word gets out that Pedro si there and he will start in the front row, ticket sales boom and the extra money taken easily covers Pedro's retainer. That night at dinner with some drivers, Müller among them, Pedro would say: "It is a pity there's no rain. Rain makes driving more fun and more dangerous too" and he knows that under the rain nobody in the world comes close to him.

Early Sunday morning, Pedro sends a telegram to México, to his dad -Don Pedro- in which he says: "Run today at Nuremberg; call after the race". He arrives at the Norisring, signs many autographs and spends time watching the ambiance and checking his rivals. The race is to be run in two 100 miles heats so there no need to stop for refuelling in the heats. He is sure he will win, the Ferrari 512M is very fast, and when the time of the start draws near he meets with Müller to talk tactics. A real simple plan: take the lead and win. He also meets Kinnunen; time has mellowed the rough relationship left when Leo left JWA, and after wishing each other luck and predicting their own victory, they agree on dinner after the race with the loser paying the bill. Pedro is happy, it is a minor race he should win easily, unlike the hard racing he usually has in his schedule, and this could be a well paid racing holiday.


The cars line up for the start and when Pedro gets the flag he immediately takes the lead. No trouble staying in front and each lap his margin over second place is larger. In this track 41 laps make 100 miles and by lap 5 Pedro is already passing backmarkers. By lap 11 Pedro goes right in front of the finish line followed by Kinnunen and Craft, gets to the narrow hairpin and catches german driver Kurt Hild on the way to the `S'. Suddenly his car runs wild, crashes against the wall at great speed, twisting spinning and hits the concrete stand coming back to the side of the track and catching fire in a couple of seconds.
Here there are several versions. Some people suggest the Ferrari lost a wheel due to poor maintenance, theory supported when they find the wheel about 250 meters from the crash, too far to get there just by the impact. Others suggest that while lapping the backmarker, this one didn't watch his mirrors and unvoluntarily cut across him, sending him to the barrier. Hild's white Porsche certainly touched Pedro's car when he was spinning but it was a minor contact after the initial crash. Hild would later say: "I saw Rodríguez approaching and ran to the right so he could pass (on the left).It was a normal passing situation happening about 400 meters (1/4 mile) from the crash. I was doing about 220 kilometers per hour (138 mph) and when the accident happened I was about 120 meters behind the mexican" and in his car there are no other signs of action, although it would be possible Pedro could have swerved to miss him and lost control when the wheel broke due to material fatigue; or maybe the wheel got loose after the impact but nobody remembers seeing it bounce afterwards, so there's no way to tell the cause of the accident.

The thing is his Ferrari catches fire and a brave marshall -called Helmut Schlosser- gets close to fight the fire while the cars go by at racing speed a few meters from him. The marshall puts out the fire helped by some other track marshalls, he and two of them suffering burns, one of them serious ones. Two minutes elapsed before the rescue team opened the car and they have to carry Pedro because he has lost consciousness, he is burned all over, wet with fire fighting foam and with various fractures all over the body. The first doctor to take care of him tries to keep him alive and will bring him back 3 times in the rush to the hospital when Pedro's heart stops. A bit after they arrive, his heart stops for the fourth time and there's no way to bring him back this time, although the medical team tries for a long time.
Pedro is dead an the news slowly run around the world. People cry for him everywhere and his body will be received in Mexico by a crowd of hundreds of thousands who will take him to his resting place where he will meet brother Ricardo, almost nine years later. He's gone, leading until the last second of his race. 30 years later, his place rests empty, his shoes have not been filled.
© CEJV 2001

#14 rolando

rolando
  • Member

  • 151 posts
  • Joined: March 00

Posted 17 April 2002 - 16:53

Carlos, I think that many Rodriguez's fan are waiting for your book to be published, so when is going to be the book ready???

I've also read that Ed McDonough was working on a book on the legendary Rodriguez Brothers too, has he finished it or the proyect is still incomplete?

Saludos

#15 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,394 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 17 April 2002 - 16:55

Originally posted by Carlos Jalife
..... He's gone, leading until the last second .....


A brilliantly conveyed observation...

#16 CSGPR

CSGPR
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 18 April 2002 - 15:58

Hi

I found this in Nürberger Nachrtichen: I have decided not to translate this so everybody can reach thier own conclution.

I just found something You will probably understand it better than I. Quote from Fritz Hössinger (Streckenwart) Ich stand direct hinter der Brückenmauer als der rote Ferrari herangeschossen kam. Plötzlich, kurz vor der Brüke, blockiert das rechte Vorderrad, der Wagen wurde nach rechts gerissen und krachte gegen die Leitplanke. Dabei wurde das Vorderrad abgerissen. Der Ferrari prallte zurück. Zog aber gleich wieder nach rechts und spiesste, Sich an der Kante der Brückenmauer auf. Er prallte wieder zurück drehte sich noch einmal und die Achse und blieb liegen.

I think I get must of it, Fritz Hössinger don't mention Kurt Hild car at all but there is a car with #63 at one photo and Kurt Hild's car # is not listed in my source so it could be his car but know one talks about any collision. So I guess it’s a story which came up quickly after the accident and then stayed on over the years.

Best regards

Christian

#17 MONTOYASPEED

MONTOYASPEED
  • Member

  • 8,097 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 19 April 2002 - 01:53

Originally posted by rolando
Carlos, I think that many Rodriguez's fan are waiting for your book to be published, so when is going to be the book ready???


Does he have fans? Don't you remember who is the best Mexican driver of all times? It is Adrian Fernandez :rolleyes:

Originally posted by rolando
a tremendous accident :cry:


Ora vato... no sea chillon.

#18 Mike Argetsinger

Mike Argetsinger
  • Member

  • 948 posts
  • Joined: April 00

Posted 19 April 2002 - 03:53

Carlos - do you have anything in the book on Pedro's win at the 1962 Daytona Continental (3-Hour) in an NART Ferrari GTO? That was high drama. Pedro had to make a last minute stop for a fuel splash. Pedro stayed in the car as one team member came over the wall to throw in the fuel. He beat Roger Penske in the John Mecom entered GTO to the finish by 64 seconds. Penske and Mecom protested because Pedro had remained in the car during the brief "splash and go." They also maintained that he had contravened the rules by standing on the pit wall during the regularly scheduled stop. Pedro maintained that NART's interpretation of the rule was that if only one crew member came over the wall, the driver was permitted to remain in the car. The protest was ruled in favor of Penske and Mecom. Pedro was assessed a 50-second penalty - making his winning margin 14 seconds!

Oh, also because the Ferrari 512M is mentioned in the thread title - perhaps this is a good place to ask a question that has been puzzling me for the past week. A friend (who has good reason to know) tells me that the 512M was designed to carry 100 gallons of fuel in each side-pod - for a total of 200 gallons. This totally startles me - but perhaps he is right. I told him I guessed that it may be 100 liters on each side - but he is adamant in his view. Anyone have the answer?

#19 CSGPR

CSGPR
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 19 April 2002 - 11:54

Hi

OK here it is the Quote from Fritz Hössinger in English,

Quote from Fritz Hössinger (Trackside marshal) “I stood direct behind the bridge wall then the red Ferrari came up towards us. Suddenly just before the bridge the right front wheel locked up and the car turned to the right where it hit the guardrail and the front wheel was thorn off. From there the Ferrari was throw back on the track but it turn to the right once more where it hit the edge of the bridge wall. After that the car was throw across the track spinning around itself once before coming to rest at the trackside”.

It must it, But my German is not perfect.


Best regards

Christian

Advertisement

#20 Fernando Deutsch

Fernando Deutsch
  • New Member

  • 13 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 19 April 2002 - 21:52

I find a relation of this fact:

Some people suggest the Ferrari lost a wheel due to poor maintenance, theory supported when they find the wheel about 250 meters from the crash, too far to get there just by the impact.


With this one:

Suddenly just before the bridge the right front wheel locked up and the car turned to the right where it hit the guardrail and the front wheel was thorn off.


The right front wheel locked sounds like a failure on the suspension, lost of weight on that wheel probably due to an unbalanced car. Did the accident happen entering or exiting the S ?

Carlos, I think that many Rodriguez's fan are waiting for your book to be published, so when is going to be the book ready???


Yes !!! When, when ??

After reading don't know how many times Nigel Roebuk memories from the Rodríguez, I really wan't to get my hands on his biography.

Cheers

#21 Carlos Jalife

Carlos Jalife
  • Member

  • 322 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 20 April 2002 - 01:45

Well, thanks for your support guys, it's nice to know the brothers aren't forgotten. About the accident, it happened entering the turn, when or about to brake so yes the load was transfered to the wheel and the suspnesion or maybe the hub failed and that was it. In the first picture you can see the wheel on the front right already flying away a considerable distance when the car is crashing, like it did before the car really hit the barrier. Sounds like both brothers were joined by dying from a car failure, one in Lotus the other in Ferrari, in acar which they shouldn't have been driving. Eerie, isn't it?

To Mike, well, yes I had the stuff on that race, but it was in 1963, in 1962 it was also a thriller and Ricardo almost caught Dan Gurney who was parked by the finish line in a damaged Lotus waiting for the clock to show 3 hours and Ricardo had taken over Phil's car. Pedro retired but he was running a Lotus, Rosebud team if I remember right.
Mr. Penske had a long conversation with me, but he didn't remember the part about protesting Pedro (well he didn't remember anything about the incidents between Pedro and Donohue in 1971 either, but I guess that's the PR part of him, he's a totally nice guy). And in that race 1963, there was also a story about Pedro going down for a last minute smoke which cost him some more time and Pedro didn't smoke so...., and then someone else said Pedro wouldn't get out of the car because it was too cold (hot Mexican?). All those stories are so good, at least for dining on them as Innes Ireland would say.

Montoyaspeed: un abrazo, yo también soy fan del Juancho, lo conocí acá cuando vino a correr en México. Pero en cuanto a chillón, Dios no lo quiera, pero si le pasa algo a Juan Pablo, vas a saber lo que es querer a Dios en tierra de indios. Saludos

Christian: Excellent :clap:

#22 MONTOYASPEED

MONTOYASPEED
  • Member

  • 8,097 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 20 April 2002 - 02:21

Originally posted by Carlos Jalife
Montoyaspeed: un abrazo, yo también soy fan del Juancho, lo conocí acá cuando vino a correr en México. Pero en cuanto a chillón, Dios no lo quiera, pero si le pasa algo a Juan Pablo, vas a saber lo que es querer a Dios en tierra de indios. Saludos


Carlos, cuando dije no sea chillon estaba bromeando, Rolando es un buen amigo mio. Desgraciadamente ya se lo que se siente cuando pierdes a tu idolo en la pista, eso me sucedio un 1 de Mayo de 1994.

Un abrazo,
David.

#23 Mike Argetsinger

Mike Argetsinger
  • Member

  • 948 posts
  • Joined: April 00

Posted 20 April 2002 - 04:23

Originally posted by Carlos Jalife
To Mike, well, yes I had the stuff on that race, but it was in 1963, in 1962 it was also a thriller and Ricardo almost caught Dan Gurney who was parked by the finish line in a damaged Lotus waiting for the clock to show 3 hours and Ricardo had taken over Phil's car. Pedro retired but he was running a Lotus, Rosebud team if I remember right.


Carlos - you are of course correct. '63 not '62. I actually knew better but it pays to read over what you write before you hit the post button! Pedro really had a great run in those early Daytona races. He won for a second year in a row (teamed with Phil Hill in the NART Ferrari 250 GTO) in 1964. That was the first year the race expanded from its' 3-Hour format to 2000 kilometers. It didn't become 24-Hours until '66.

Your telling the story of that inaugural 1962 Daytona Continental reminds me that it was, as you say, Ricardo in the Ferrari he shared with Phil Hill at the finish. When Dan Gurney calmly coasted across the line after the checker fell (using nothing more than gravity), Ricardo was only 46 seconds down the road.

I am very excited for you at the prospect of your book. Good luck! I know you will make a great success of it.

#24 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 8,222 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 20 April 2002 - 12:57

Originally posted by Carlos Jalife
Sounds like both brothers were joined by dying from a car failure, one in Lotus the other in Ferrari, in acar which they shouldn't have been driving.


Carlos - was Ricardo's fatal accident caused by a car failure?

DCN

#25 Carlos Jalife

Carlos Jalife
  • Member

  • 322 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 21 April 2002 - 00:54

Doug,
well yes it was caused but there are many factors which complicated the findings and putting out a commission to find the truth, mainly political, so it was nevr done. I saw the papers from the investigation and they were in the old building of the General Attorney's office, which is the one handling all the deaths in Mexico, and virtually anything that could have been against the law (sort of like the Department of Justice in the US). I used to be a government official, and although those papers were in a restricted file, I did read them, although I couldn't photocopy them, and the cause was rear suspension breakage, which could not have been caused by the accident since it was not from impact, basically that's what it said.
And I know that Rob says Alf told him nothing broke, and of course what do you want him to say? And again, Rob is a neat guy, a gentleman, but Lotus cars were mighty fragile and in that same GP Innes broke a hub, and in South Africa in december someone else got killed (Hocking I think).
Let's just say that if someone wants to sue me for saying Ricardo's suspension broke, they can do so, and I'll contersue and win easily. However, that's not the point. He knew what he was doing, he knew the risks and it was fate, that's why the president, when made aware of the facts decided to let it go, not start an international incident. Ricardo would not come back no matter what, but the president didn't visit Rob in the following years, and Pedro was never in great terms with Rob, not friends, mere acquantainces, so you know what the family thought about the private team. He would not blame him, nor Chapman who built the car, but it wasn't like the best friends he could have in the world, which didn't prevent Pedro from inviting them every year to the pre-Mexico GP he had at his hous in Cuernavaca.
Of course, it didn't help that Rob took Sara ("the pauper", ha, I know her story real well and she's, to put it mildly, a bitch) under his wings, when she claimed she was robbed by the Rodríguez family. But then again, Ron also says, without any proof, that Don Pedro was the manager of mexico city bordello's or something alike, and it has been repeated by respectable guys like Mark Hughes, whom I sent a letter making a few corrections to, and he said it was a bit of a rush job and he couldn't do that much research. I mean Rob is cool with all his anecdotes, but sometimes he talks without proof and nobody questions him because it sound real good and why let facts get in the way of a good story? (and boy are his stories good, I am a big fan of his columns). I have done it and well, at least he respects me (although if you ask he'll probably say I'm the mexican who writes to complain everytime he says something about the Rodríguez).
So, yes Ricardo and Pedro died using a car they shouldn't have been using, the big rival to the team they were running for, nd both becaue something failed in the suspension.
And you know, they both were raised in a vry catholic way, accepting that God decides when and where. He decided, so in a sense, Pedro lived with it for almost nine more years, knowing that in the end, the Lotus was just a way of God calling Ricardo, and that was it. An by th way, there are pictur of the crash wher you can see the sharp left up the banking the car makes, and the dark streak of something in the asphalt showing where it turned up, and you know that's not anything that could have happened to Ricardo in terms of control. But then again, I don't know if you ever saw the original banking of the Peraltada -sorry but your picture has a beard and although you seem about my age which is pre-50 y.o., I'm not sure), and the armco at the top, and it was steep, I used to run (foot) from the bottom to the top when I was a kid, and in the rail someone painted "here died Ricardo". If you lot the car ther it wouldn't have been a sharp up, specially if you hav travelled that path zillions of time and lost it quite a few in other cars. And nobody here remembers an accident like that, so unlikely. It's not like Senna, where we've all seen somebody go staright at Tamburello about once a year and has a big shunt. No, in the Peraltada you don't shoot up, never, like in the Parabolica you don't go straight unless something happened to the car, but Jochen can´t tell either.
Well, I know I ramble on (that's why I like the Zeppelin), but your writings are great. Enjoy them (and I even found a few things which could be corrected like the Peter Westbury picture which has a caption saying it's Pedro -no offense) A LOT!!! I never caught you before writing in the Forum until recently, but welcome aboard, and please hurry with the BRM book, I might even beat you with the Rodríguez one, and boy, am I slow! :)

#26 Slyder

Slyder
  • Member

  • 5,453 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 21 April 2002 - 03:58

The thing that I still don't know is:

How did Ricardo lost control of the car? Did he just simply lost it in the corner. I don't know that much of the accident, so I would like to know.

#27 Fernando Deutsch

Fernando Deutsch
  • New Member

  • 13 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 21 April 2002 - 18:31

As Carlos have said, it was the rear suspension that broke on the Peraltada. I have read somewhere that the famous turn use to had a light bump on it that at high speed could promote the failure. Also the Lotus was a very fragile car and something very different to the Ferraris that Ricardo was familiar with.

#28 Carlos Jalife

Carlos Jalife
  • Member

  • 322 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 21 April 2002 - 18:34

He entered the Peraltada (banked turn) and in the middle there's a bump (you can still feel it today if you do more than 120 KPH even though it's been paved countless times over and smoothed), and the suspension broke and the car shot up (left) until he hit the armco. The track must be about 15 meters wide there so he probably had the reaction time needed to travel about 7 meters at 150 kph, which is about nothing. The problem is he hit the part between the bottom of the armco and the track (about a gap of a foot and the car sort of went into its two front wheels and threw him in the air (1962, no seat belts) and he had the misfortune of landing about 10 feet away on top of the armco and he was almost cut in two. If he had landed in the track or in the rough on the other side he probably would have lived after some broken bones, or maybe just bruises.
Fate. :cry:

#29 Carlos Jalife

Carlos Jalife
  • Member

  • 322 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 21 April 2002 - 18:40

To Mike, I had a light weekend at home and could check the Ferrari 512 issue about fuel tanks. What I found in ian Bamseys's book is that the Ferrari had a 120 liters (32 gallons) Pirelli fuel tank plus a 15 liter oil tank (about 4 gallons). No way it couild be 100 gallons (378.5 liters), it would have been unbelievably heavy. Also, it could have gone on Le Mans for 5 hours+ without stopping, maybe finish Sebring in 2 stops if handled with care. No way :)

#30 Dreadman

Dreadman
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 19 November 2002 - 17:08

Probably a bit late, but I just read this article while while doing some searching about these era's Sports Cars.

But for Ferrari 512M at the Official Ferrari site it states it had 2x 120 Litres Fuel Tanks. And I also read this on some other Spec sheets on some other sites.

Thanks,
C-ya.

#31 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 10,768 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 19 November 2002 - 19:00

This is the Muller Ferrari from the 1971 Brands Hatch sports car race. Would this be the one that this thread is about?

Posted Image

#32 CSGPR

CSGPR
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 19 November 2002 - 22:26

Hi Barry

It could be it's ether 1008 or 1016, because I don't believe that it 1044. so it colud be, and then compaired with this link: http://www.motorraci...tro71moz11b.htm

which shows the #1008 in Nurburgring only 14 days later That could be a match.

Thanks


Best regards

#33 RSNS

RSNS
  • Member

  • 1,487 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 20 November 2002 - 00:58

Originally posted by McRonalds
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_1.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_2.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_3.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_4.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_5.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_6.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_7.jpg
www.totaaal-extreeem.de/ron/PRodriguez_71_noris_8.jpg
[/B]


When I try to see the pictures I only get a notice (in German) saying the documents are not to be found on the server.

I was a big fan of Pedro Rodriguez, so this is not morbid curiosity, I also would like to know what happened.

Carlos Jalife, great work. I'll be expecting the book. I can read Castillian, but is there an English version forthcoming?

RSNS

#34 Marc

Marc
  • Member

  • 87 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 20 November 2002 - 09:23

Mee too , I don't see the pics ...

#35 Bruce Moxon

Bruce Moxon
  • Member

  • 265 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 20 November 2002 - 10:35

I can't see them either, dang it! :confused:

I have a copy of Rainer Shlegelmilch's "Portrait of the Sixties" There's a great portrait there of Pedro - he looks like a recruitment poster.

As an inverterate Volkswagen-phile notice the (very rare in Australia) VW 411 in the background of the colour photo of the 512.

Can anyone tell me why I always thought Pedro died in a Porsche 917?


Bruce Moxon

#36 CSGPR

CSGPR
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 20 November 2002 - 10:59

Hi


Bruce, RSNS and Marc.


If you send me a private massage with your e-mail addresses, I will mail them to you. But they are rather big.

Pedro was racing the Ferrari 512 because he was offered the Drive by Herbert Müller (They had shered on of John Wyer Automotives Porsche 908/03 at Targa Florio earlyer in the season). Pedro had the weekend off, and the organiser offered big money. Pedro wanted both the drive and the money. For the organisers Pedro was the star of the show, he was intended to take part in a BRM but the car was not ready. Then he took up Müllers offer. :(

Best regards

#37 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,394 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 20 November 2002 - 11:08

Originally posted by Bruce Moxon
Can anyone tell me why I always thought Pedro died in a Porsche 917?


It wasn't from reading the 'vale' notice in your old man's RCN...

It clearly says it was in the 512.

But remember that was what he usually drove that year?

#38 McRonalds

McRonalds
  • Member

  • 444 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 20 November 2002 - 21:49

Hi everyone,
I've put the pictures online again (I've lost all data on my server some time ago and did not put the pictures online again after the problem was solved) - for everyone who is interested (attention: large size). Very sad pictures - as I've mentioned before.

#39 Pedro 917

Pedro 917
  • Member

  • 1,767 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 20 November 2002 - 22:12

The Ferrari 512S Chassis # 1008 was built in 1970 and sold to the Scuderia Filipinetti. It was driven by Reine Wisell and Jo Bonnier in the 24H of Le Mans and had a long tail / race # 14. It crashed out of the race around 18h30 in a major collision between Arnage and Maison Blanche, which eliminated 4 Ferrari’s (2 works and the 2 Filipinetti cars). I’ve read somewhere that the car was used in the film “Le Mans” and that it was damaged but I really don’t know if that’s correct. Anyway, Le Mans was the car’s only official outing in 1970. In 1971, Herbert Müller bought the car from Filipinetti and converted it to “M” specifications. It drove only 2 races : the 1000 km of Monza driven to fifth place by Italians Moretti and Zeccoli / race # 11 and the Norisring 200 Miles by Pedro, race # 26. As for the bodywork, when Pedro crashed it, it had the bodywork Müller used on chassis # 1044 at Brands Hatch. The sponsor “Rolanaflor” is from Reichenberg, Switzerland and was a company that made carpets. The Rolanaflor logo was a castle and the sticker on the doors were yellow with a green frame.
Barry Boor’s picture is definitely # 1044 in it’s nearly maiden outfit as Brands Hatch was the first European Endurance race. They still had to put most of the stickers on it. The picture CSGPR is referring to is # 1008 in the Monza pitlane. It’s from a postcard and I have a picture of Pedro before the start of the Norisring race talking to the Herbert Müller Racing mechanic with the huge “moustache”. Anyway, Müller had 2 major crashes with # 1044 (Nürburgring & Zeltweg) and so had a lot of repairs to do and that’s probably how some of the bodywork ended up on # 1008. It’s a pity that I still don’t know how to put pictures on the forum but you can always contact me and I can send you some pictures by e-mail. As I collect all Rodriguez stuff, I would love to receive the pictures of McRonalds. For one or another reason, I can’t open them.

Advertisement

#40 Marc

Marc
  • Member

  • 87 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 21 November 2002 - 09:27

It's OK .
Thanks McRonalds and CSGPR . :)

#41 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 21 November 2002 - 16:01

Originally posted by Pedro 917
(snip) I have a picture of Pedro before the start of the Norisring race talking to the Herbert Müller Racing mechanic with the huge “moustache”. (snip)

I guess that would be Stumpen-Herbie himself...?


__________________
Stop the terror!

Help making the people of Israel aware that they don't have a future with Ariel Sharon!

Tell your government to support Amram Mitzna for Prime Minister on January 28!

It may well be the last chance for peace and freedom in the Middle East!

#42 RSNS

RSNS
  • Member

  • 1,487 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 21 November 2002 - 18:56

Originally posted by Marc
It's OK .
Thanks McRonalds and CSGPR . :)


just to second it. Thanks both.

RSNS

#43 Pedro 917

Pedro 917
  • Member

  • 1,767 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 08 December 2002 - 17:14

I guess that would be Stumpen-Herbie himself...?



Just learned how to put a picture in a thread.....
As you can see, it's not Stumpen-Herbie! Different haircut too...
One of Pedro's last pictures.

Posted Image

#44 Pedro 917

Pedro 917
  • Member

  • 1,767 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 31 December 2004 - 00:18

Does somebody know what was on the little sticker under the Ferrari logo on Pedro's ill-fated Ferrari 512M? First I thought it was a framed Swiss banner but since someone asked me in order to make a model, I checked it and now I'm having serious doubts. I join some pictures of the Ferrari 512 chassis # 1008 from Monza 1971, from Vila Real 1971 where Herzog drove the car (just a week before the Norisring race) and from the Norisring with Pedro driving.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Twinny : maybe you could merge this thread with the Rodriguez's accident at the Norisring thread.

#45 k5mcl

k5mcl
  • New Member

  • 2 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 16 January 2005 - 04:29

McRonalds, is there any chance of you re-hosting the images? I'm interested to see them.


Thank you



Chris

#46 Pedro 917

Pedro 917
  • Member

  • 1,767 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 11 July 2006 - 14:26

For the model collectors amongst you: Today, Brumm released a limited edition (1000 copies) of Pedro's Ferrari 512M in which he was killed at the Norisring, Nuremberg 35 years ago.
Check it out here