23 replies to this topic

[Vicuna]

Fangio and Moss worked for a year - would it have lasted to the end of JM's career or would Stirling's ambitions have meant one of them would have needed to move on.

This of course rather pre supposes Mercedes had stayed in.

Prost and Senna 'worked' for about 20 races only.

So, with the benefit of a large dollop of hindsight - who would you have if you ran the best team in the world at the time?

1950 - 54 Fangio with a young Behra later to be replaced by a young Moss
1955 - 59 Fangio & Moss with Brooks in the wings
1960 - 64 Moss & a young Jim Clark and Dan Gurney to follow
1965 - 69 Clark & Rindt - awesome
1970 - 74 Stewart with Amon, Ronnie & Hunt
1975 - 79 Peterson, Hunt, - Lauda I guess, and then Gilles!
1980 - 84 Gilles and a young Prost with Senna under option
1985 - 89 Senna and Prost - until the inevitable, then Berger up my sleeve
1990 - 94 Senna - can I clone him? Berger I guess, Alesi perhaps and a young German guy
1995 - 99 That German guy and - well who ever he tells me I'm allowed to sign


This is a bit like playing Jimmy Rabbit from 'The Committements'

- And so Vicuna, who's the one driver you'd loved to have worked with in your 50 years at the top of F1, but never did?

- Thats a most interesting question Michael - do you know I never did like that Nigel Mansell fellow much. ( This must be read with an Irish accent). Good driver don't get me wrong, great on his day but I always thought things the size of his head had moons orbiting around them. Piquet was good but none of his championships were achieved in years when he was the best driver.

You know I tried to get ASCARI but the then I thought about him and Juan working together and I dropped it immediately. Keke I liked but we never had room. I think the one guy I'd loved to have signed was Wimille. Wimille and Fangio - it might not have lasted long, but I doubt that Ferrari chap would have dominated 52 and 53 in the same way"

[William Hunt]

What about pre-war ? U didn't pick any drivers from those great golden GP years ?

[William Hunt]

LOVE this idea, i hope many will participate

I'll make your fantasy game a bit more difficult (if U allow it) : it is forbidden to choose the world champion in your team for each year (otherwise everyone will sign Fangio every season in the '50s, that makes it too predictable);

My dream-team Fantasy picks if I was a team owner (I'm choosing car, tires and 4 car teams : 3 drivers and one reserve / testdriver who would race in my home country Belgium where i would line-up 4 cars !) :

1950 :

Car : ALFA ROMEO 158
Tires : Pirelli

Drivers :
1. Juan-Manuel FANGIO (ARG)
2. Raymond SOMMER (FRA)
3. Luigi VILLORESI (ITA)
R. Philippe ETANCELIN (FRA)

1951 :

ALFA ROMEO 159, Pirelli

1. Giuseppe-Nino FARINA (ITA)
2. Alberto ASCARI (ITA)
3. Robert MANZON (FRA)
R. Johnny CLAES (BEL)

1952 :

FERRARI 500F , Pirelli

1. Giuseppe-Nino FARINA (ITA)
2. Robert MANZON (FRA)
3. Mike HAWTHORN (GB)
R. Paul PIETSCH (D)

1953 :

FERRARI 500F , Pirelli

1. Juan-Manuel FANGIO (ARG)
2. Maurice TRINTIGNANT (FRA)
3. Onofre MARIMON (ARG)
R. Stirling MOSS (GB)

1954 :

MERCEDES W196, Continental

1. Alberto ASCARI (ITA)
2. Mike HAWTHORN (GB)
3. Onofre MARIMON (ARG)
3. Jean BEHRA (FRA) (replacing Marimon after his death)
R. Paul FRERE (BEL)

1955 :

MERCEDES W 196, Continental

1. Eugenio CASTELLOTTI (ITA)
2. Stirling MOSS (GB)
3. Jean BEHRA (FRA)
R. Roberto MIERES (ARG)

[William Hunt]

A U might notice : I rate French drivers like Raymond Sommer, Robert Manzon, Maurice Trintignant and Jean Behra all very high ! Manzon is often overlooked but he had great pace. Sommer died much too early, his fighting spirit reminds me of Jean Alesi.

[William Hunt]

1956 :

LANCIA - FERRARI D50 , Pirelli (Ferrari ran on less performant Belgian Englebert tires those days)

1. Eugenio CASTELLOTTI (ITA) +
1. Jean BEHRA (FRA) (replacing Castellotti after his death)
2. Stirling MOSS (GB)
3. Peter COLLINS (GB)
4. Luigi MUSSO (ITA)

1957 :

MASERATI 250 F, Pirelli

1. Jean BEHRA (FRA)
2. Stirling MOSS (GB)
3. Tony BROOKS (GB)
R. Harry SCHELL (USA / FRA)

1958 :

VANWALL , Dunlop

1. Stirling MOSS (GB)
2. Luigi MUSSO (ITA) +
2. Tony BROOKS (GB)
3. Peter COLLINS (GB) +
3. Roy SALVADORI (GB)
R. Stuart LEWIS-EVANS (GB) +

1959 :

ASTON MARTIN DBR 4 , Dunlop

1. Tony BROOKS (GB)
2. Stirling MOSS (GB)
3. Jean BEHRA (FRA) +
3. Masten GREGORY (USA)
R. Roy SALVADORI (GB)

1960 :

COOPER - Climax T53, Dunlop

1. Stirling MOSS (GB)
2. Olivier GENDEBIEN (BEL)
3. Phil HILL (USA)
R. Innes IRELAND (GB)

[William Hunt]

1961 :

FERRARI 156 'Sharknose', Dunlop

1. Wolfgang VON TRIPS (D) +
1. Richie GINTHER (USA) (replaces Von Trips in USA after his death)
2. Dan GURNEY (USA)
3. Stirling MOSS (GB)
R. Joakim BONNIER (SVE)

1962 :

B.R.M. 578, Dunlop

1. Jim CLARK (GB)
2. John SURTEES (GB)
3. Dan GURNEY (USA)
R. Willy MAIRESSE (BEL)

1963 :

LOTUS - Climax 25, Dunlop

1. Graham HILL (GB)
2. Dan GURNEY (USA)
3. Willy MAIRESSE (BEL)
R. Bruce McLAREN (N-Z)

1964 :

LOTUS - Climax 33, Dunlop

1. Dan GURNEY (USA)
2. Jim CLARK (GB)
3. Graham HILL (GB)
R. Peter ARUNDELL (GB)
R. Bob ANDERSON (GB) (replacing Arundell after his accident)

1965 :

LOTUS - Climax 33, Dunlop

1. Graham HILL (GB)
2. Lorenzo BANDINI (ITA)
3. Richie GINTHER (USA)
R. Dan GURNEY (USA)

[Wolf]

My Fantasy Manager

1950 Alfa Romeo SpA
1. Fangio
2. Farina
3. Sommer, to be replaced by 'wildcard' after tragic accident with Chiron moving to #3
4. Chiron

1951 Alfa Romeo SpA
1. Fangio
2. Farina
3. Bonetto
4. 'wilcard', but Moss after Swiss GP

1952 Scuderia Ferrari
1. Ascari
2. Farina
3. Moss

1953 Officine Alfieri Maserati
1. Fangio
2. Moss
3. Bonetto, (I'd like to have Collins but I guess I'd be pressured to have one home-boy on the team)

1954 Officine Alfieri Maserati
1. Fangio, to be replaced by de Graffenried (after JMF moved to Mercedes), but as #3, with Moss and Taruffi moving up
2. Moss
3. Taruffi

1955 *shrug*, I think I'll pass on this one

1956 Oficine Alfieri Maserati
1. Moss
2. Perdisa
3. Hawthorn
4. Villoresi

1957 Scuderia Ferrari
1. Hawthorn, to be 'on-ice' after GP von D, replaced by Schell
2. Collins, ditto, by Bonnier
3. Gregory
4. Musso

1958 Vanwall
1. Lewis-Evans (#3), to be replaced by Fangio when things went wrong @ Maser
2. Moss
3. Brooks

1959 Rob Walker (Cooper, BRM)
1. Moss
2. Trintignant

1960 same (Cooper, Lotus)
1. Moss
2. Brooks, presumably would've found works drive following season

1961 same (Cooper, Lotus)
1. Moss
2. *shrug*, maybe Trintignant again

1962 same (Lotus, Cooper, Ferrari)
1. Moss (Ferrari would presumably be returned after accident , but I'd let Alf have a go at it, to make it up to Moss standards and then send it back to Enzo )
2. Ireland
3. -rented-, maybe

1963 same (Lotus, BRP)
1. P. Hill
2. Ireland

I was going with some logic; I tried to manage teams I liked, tried to retain some structure in form of the team backbone, and to draft 'eligible' drivers (not with factory rides, esp. with Ferrari or any reigning WDC team).

Wait a sec,it looks like Ken Gregory Fantasy Manager to me, now that I look at it...

[William Hunt]

Nice to see U also in this thread Wolf.

But the rule was not to use a World Champion and U used champs a couple of times like in '50,'51,'52 or '54 (that would make the choices too obvious).

Still some nice choices. I thought about Bonetto too (for 1953) but didn't use him.

[Wolf]

Would You refuse Fangio one-off drive at his home GP (and at Spa)?;) It was merely keeping a decorum, he did win the title as a Mercedes man... Bur on account of first two years, I passed on '55.

[William Hunt]

No, but U did use Fangio, Farina & Ascari in the first 3 seasons.

[Wolf]

You did say 'each year' and I used WDC in only 3/14 seasons... But seriously I didn't know You meant 'any', and this was my excercise of hindsight- I set myself up in the situation to have Fangio (Alfa team*) and to spot the Moss right away in '51 and bring him under Master's wing (although it would've been better if it was after Monza accident when Fangio redefined his 'attitude', and became more seasoned campaigner). Then I moved to Ferrari to let him have taste of Ascari's raw speed, only to couple him with Fangio again in '53.

Only flimsy I sufered myself (no Ferrari for Moss, although I already compensated to him for Taruffi 'incident' by works drive, and no Fangio team-mate after '55, by his admission) is in '58 where I sought to prolonge Fangio's career with a decent ride, and as GA Vanderwell I believe I could have forced my decision on Moss (for his own good as well). Perhaps the Moss/Brooks pairing of '60 was a bit far fetched too (expecting CAS to play second fiddle again), but I could lure him (being Rob Walker and all) for his good- given another competitive year, maybe people would see how good he was and keep him in the sport a while longer...

* and I'd feel bad to rob either them or Farina of the title

[Mac Lark]

Good concept but I do like William's idea of excluding that yrs champ. So I've excluded the champs car as well. For '58,'73'82/83 this creates a little problem - but this is fantasy so there's a way around it.

For '54 I've determined Mercedes really won the title for Fangio. As was the case at the time, I've 3 driver squads up to 1960 and replaced drivers injured or killed.

So:

1950 Ferrari Fangio, Ascari & Gonzalez
1951 Ferrari Ascari, Gonzalez & Behra
1952 Maserati Fangio(Villoresi) Gonzalez & Behra
1953 Maserati Fangio, Gonzalez & Behra
1954 Maserati Gonzalez, Behra & Moss
1955 Lancia Moss, Behra & Gonzalez
1956 Mercedes Moss, Collins & Hawthorn
1957 Vanwall Moss, Collins & Hawthorn
1958 Cooper Moss, Brooks & Brabham
1959 Ferrari Moss, Brooks & Gurney
1960 Lotus Moss & Brooks
1961 Lotus Moss & Brooks
1962 Lotus Moss (Ireland) & Clark
1963 BRM Gurney & G.Hill
1964 Lotus Gurney & G.Hill
1965 BRM Gurney & Stewart
1966 Ferrari Clark & Stewart
1967 Lotus Clark & Stewart
1968 McLaren Clark(Moss?>Rindt) & Stewart
1969 McLaren Rindt & Amon
1970 Ferrari Amon & Ickx
1971 Lotus Amon & Ickx
1972 Tyrrell Stewart & Peterson
1973 McLaren Peterson & Cevert
1974 Ferrari Peterson & Lauda
1975 McLaren Peterson & Hunt
1976 Brabham DFV Peterson & Lauda
1977 Lotus Peterson & Hunt
1978 Ferrari Peterson(Jarier) & Lauda
1979 Williams Lauda & Villeneuve
1980 Brabham Villeneuve & Piquet
1981 Ligier Villeneuve & Prost
1982 McLaren Villeneuve(Tambay) & Prost
1983 Renault Prost & Rosberg
1984 Lotus Prost & Rosberg
1985 Williams Senna & Rosberg
1986 Lotus Senna & Rosberg - on the grounds that Piquet or Mansell with Senna would have been unworkable
1987 Lotus Senna & Prost
1988 Ferrari Prost & Mansell
1989 Ferrari Senna & Berger
1990 Ferrari Prost & Mansell
1991 Williams Prost & Mansell
1992 McLaren Senna & Schumacher
1993 McLaren Senna & Schumacher
1994 Ferrari Senna (Moreno) & Alesi
1995 Williams Alesi & Hill
1996 McLaren Schumacher & Alesi
1997 Ferrari Schumacher & Alesi
1998 Ferrari Schumacher & Irvine - on the basis that Villeneuve/Hakkinen/Frentzen with MS wouldn't work
1999 Ferrari Schumacher & Irvine
2000 McLaren Hakkinen & Villeneuve
2001 McLaren Hakkinen & Villeneuve
2002 Williams Montoya & Villeneuve

[Wolf]

Looking at my list, I'm quite disappointed I didn't pick Gonzalez in any of the teams... Another one of quite underrated drivers. :

[William Hunt]

José-Froilan Gonzalez scored surprisingly well in my Ambitious GP Survey. People do apreciate him a lot.

I didn't choose him because I want my drivers to be fit and although he has world class driving talent his phisical condition wasn't good at all.

[Vicuna]

William, with the greatest of respect, are you judging for yourself that the Pampas Bull's health wasn't very good BECAUSE he was/is fat, or do you know something I don't?

[William Hunt]

I wasn't referring to his health nor to his driving abilities. I was referring to his weight.

[Mac Lark]

William

Fat does always mean unfit no more than skinny=fit.

He's still alive afterall.

[William Hunt]

You're right, I guess I shouldn't have said that. Didn't look very nice to Gonzalez. I have absolutely nothing against him though.

[Vicuna]

I've read that the Pampas Bull was quite an athlete - as I recall soccer, cycling, athletics.

Not quite in the category of de Portago, but a bit of an allrounder nevertheless

[William Hunt]

Originally posted by Vicuna
"... as I recall soccer, cycling, athletics...."

Was he the goalkeeper when he played soccer ? (I know shouldn't have said that but I'm just kidding)

[Vicuna]

William - you are , what we call, a hard case!

I found the book - Steve Small's bible:

"...Gonzalez was a fair soccer player, swimmer and cyclist..." then he took up motor bikes.

And he's 80 on October 5!

Not bad for a fatty!

[Doug Nye]

When Gonzalez suffered his bad practice accident at Dundrod in practice for the 1954 RAC Tourist Trophy he was scooped up - with difficulty - by the local St John's Ambulance Brigade attendants and whisked off to hospital. When they returned the late 'Autosport' reporter Wilson McComb asked one of the them how he was, and all he could get out of the attendant was "That little feller, you know he looked tubby, well I tell you he was absolutely SOLID MUSCLE!!!".

DCN

[Vicuna]

He's 80 in October this year.

Not bad for a ball of muscle.

[Vicuna]

While we're reviving old threads....