64 replies to this topic

[William Hunt]

I'm not really a Jackie Stewart fan but since we discussed this about Clark, why not about Stwart ?

What was his greatest race (not necessarily a win) ?

I'll go for the German GP 1968 at the Nordschleiffe.

[stavelot]

Difficult choice.

Do anybody know what is his opinion?

I'd say Germany 1968 or South Africa 1973.

[jarama]

Hi, William,

Good topic. JYS was my hero. I'm between Nürburgring '68 -the 4' gap to the second, Graham Hill IIRC, under rainstorms and heavy fog- and Monza '73, when a puncture delayed him early in the race, loosing around 1 minute and recovering until the 4th place to make the points required to become WDChampion for 3rd time...

[DOHC]

Four minutes ahead of Graham at the 'ring in '68, that's correct. But Graham had had an off and had to get out of the car to get started again, and jumped in while rolling downhill...

I'd go for the Nurburgring '68, and Monza '73, which wasn't unlike Clark's race at Monza '67.

[Rob Ryder]

My vote would be 1968 German at Nurburgring.

Stavelot, why 1973 South Africa? I remember that Stewart came from 15th or 16th on the grid to win, but also that he passed most of the drivers ahead of him while the yellow flags were out following Regazzoni's accident. If I remember correctly some teams protested the win but he escaped with only a warning.

Rob

[fines]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
Stavelot, why 1973 South Africa? I remember that Stewart came from 15th or 16th on the grid to win, but also that he passed most of the drivers ahead of him while the yellow flags were out following Regazzoni's accident. If I remember correctly some teams protested the win but he escaped with only a warning.

Exactly! Certainly not one of his best, rather one of his luckiest. It's really hard to argue against his mesmeric fog drive on this august Eifel weekend - most of his great drives were rather unspectacular. But I really like the mention of the Italian GP of '73, in his penultimate race.

[William Hunt]

Originally posted by fines

.......most of his great drives were rather unspectacular. .......

That's exactly why I posted the topic. I don't recall any spectacular drive apart from Nürburgring 1968 and I was hoping that some people would remember other great feats from Jackie.

[Vicuna]

'66 Indy 500.

[bobbo]

In my humble opinion, his greatest race was one which he didn't even take the green flag: Watkins Glen in 1973. After the terrible accident and death of his team mate Francois Cevert (I was less than 1/4 mile from the crash and it was horrible!) he had the sense, presence and self-honesty to say "enough is enough" and retire at the height of his career. While not truly a great race, it was a great action on his part. It took a brave manto do so.

Bobbo

[Udo K.]

Yes, for me its definetely the 1968 "fog-Grand Prix" at the Ring, which I was happy enough to witness from a very wet "Hatzenbach". Stewart was in a class of his own that day and I still wonder how he managed to get through these conditions without any incident. His greatest drive.

[Rediscoveryx]

His 68 Nürburgring drive is even greater if we consider the fact that he hated both the track and wet weather conditions...

[Martyj]

I think Jackie himself has said many times in interviews that the Nurburgring in 68 was the result of a tire advantage. I believe he has rated his personal best races as Monza 73 and the U.S. 1968.

One of his more impressive performances was in 1971 at either the Spainish or Monaco race, where he was extremely sick in the cockpit throughout, but managed to keep the car in the lead and out of the barriers for the win.

[Keir]

I never rated the Ring '68 very highly, (way too much a tire and car advantage) than Jackie's skill.

The British GP of '69 was much more a show of Jackie's talent.

[Reyna]

Sorry, but 1969 British GP was more a show of Rindt's talent !!!!!


Rafa

[stavelot]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
Stavelot, why 1973 South Africa? I remember that Stewart came from 15th or 16th on the grid to win, but also that he passed most of the drivers ahead of him while the yellow flags were out following Regazzoni's accident. If I remember correctly some teams protested the win but he escaped with only a warning.

Rob

Thanks a lead. I've learned once more about the f1 racing. The reports I read gave no hint to Stewart's not correct advantage.

Any pic about the Stewart's overtaking under yellow flags?

[Roger Clark]

I'm not able to say what was Jackie Stewart's greatest drive, but anybody who doesn't believe that the 1968 German GP was not a truly great drive by any standards should study this picture.



Stewart is completely exhausted after the race. He is supporting his right arm, still not completely healed after a Formula 2 accident earlier in the season. Behind him Ken Tyrrell his gazing into the fog to see who will finish second.

[chrisblack]

As far as his driving ability, while it's hard to argue that the 1968 drive at the Nurburgring was not an incredible feat, it had a lot to do, as noted above, with his equipment and the fact that Tyrell sent him out for a recon lap before the start to get an idea what he was facing, much against Jackie's wishes. It should also be noted that Dan Gurney considers that race to be one of his own greatest achievements, even though he finished 9th after limping around the circuit with a puncture and then trying to catch up. We can speculate that Jackie's margin of victory would have been far less than 4 minutes if Dan had run the whole race without his tire problems. The event that came to my mind when I read this thread was the 1971 Monaco Grand Prix. In the words of his team owner:

"After the warm-up lap, Jackie thought there was something amiss with the brakes, and the mechanics found the brake balance bar was actually broken! No time to do anything about it of course, so he had to do the whole race - at Monaco, of all places - with front brakes only. Afterwards we took out the rear pads, and they were like new, untouched..."
Ken Tyrrell describing Stewart's flag-to-flag victory at Monaco 1971

I consider that to be real "driving" ability.

[FEV]

Originally posted by Keir
I never rated the Ring '68 very highly, (way too much a tire and car advantage) than Jackie's skill.

Like Roger I couldn't say which was JYS's greatest race (as to be a Grand Prix apparently) but like you Keir I agree the results (or at least the gap) probably wouldn't have been the same if everybody was on equal ground with tires. A great drive by Stewart and I wouldn't dare say the contrary, but Ickx's for instance was as impressive to me : completely missed his start because the starter's orders were strange, had to pit for googles but there were none available so he did two laps in this hell with a naked face , and pitted again for Bonnier who had just retired could give him his. He was 4th at the end, five minutes behind Stewart but had lost a lot of time in these events !

[Gary C]

'While not truly a great race, it was a great action on his part. It took a brave man to do so.'
But he had decided to retire at the end of 73 anyway. He had told a couple of people at Ford (Walter Hayes being one) and also Uncle Ken and no-one else, not even Helen. So whatever was going to happen at the Glen that weekend, he was finished straight afterwards anyway.
My vote goes for the Nurburgring 1968.

[William Hunt]

His surprising victory in the B.R.M. was also a remarkable achievement.

[William Hunt]

Originally posted by FEV
... but Ickx's for instance was as impressive to me : completely missed his start because the starter's orders were strange, had to pit for googles but there were none available so he did two laps in this hell with a naked face , and pitted again for Bonnier who had just retired could give him his. He was 4th at the end, five minutes behind Stewart but had lost a lot of time in these events !

I didn't know that about the goggles. Some pretty impressive stories here. This is Nostalgia !

[FEV]

Originally posted by William Hunt
I didn't know that about the goggles. Some pretty impressive stories here. This is Nostalgia !

I really must find the time to install my scanner, because the picture I have of Ickx without googles in this race speaks by itself

[Doug Nye]

I don't really subscribe to the notion of 'greatest drives', 'greatest drivers', 'greatest cars' etc but in connection with this thread perhaps it should be emphasised that '68 at the Nurburgring saw JYS driving with his damaged wrist necessarily supported in a plastic cast.

Had it been a dry race the Matra's steering reaction would probably have made it impossible for him to complete the distance due to the pain and loss of strength after a GP distance reacting full-load forces. As it was he barely survived race distance even with benefit of lightened steering thanks to the rain and the support offered by the cast.

So he was assisted there by the rain making the steering lighter, yet he was still an injured driver and his tyre advantage - though it certainly existed - was merely a pro to be balanced against the cons. Add his pace in the severely restricted, variable and entirely unpredictable visibility and that was a pretty special performance - entirely heroic in my view. Monaco '71 without much contribution from the rear brakes on the Tyrrell was simply amazing - and little publicised at the time. Monza '73 to do a Clark and recover from a lengthy pit stop also earned a star or two. But what - William - was his 'surprising victory' in the BRM???

DCN

[stavelot]

Originally posted by William Hunt
His surprising victory in the B.R.M. was also a remarkable achievement.

He drove a Matra Cosworth. His first two wins (Italy 65 & Monaco 66) were taken with the BRM 261.

[William Hunt]

I was talking about Monaco 1966.

[jarama]

Originally posted by fines
[B]
It's really hard to argue against his mesmeric fog drive on this august Eifel weekend - most of his great drives were rather unspectacular.

Maybe this fact underlines his truly greatness.

[David M. Kane]

Ken Tyrrell said in his opinion it was the rain race at the Ring.

Bobbo, I arrived at the Cevert accident about 30-45 seconds after it happened only to see Jody waving a slowing Denny Hulme on in frustration.
It was obvious from his body language that it was a very, very bad accident. Minutes later the truth was announced as you probably recalled.

I once looked at Stewart's lap times over an entire GP at Watkins Glen, his
lap times never varying by more than a 100ths of a second, it was almost
musical in its pattern. He was so smooth, so consistent that he didn't even
look like he was going that fast. Its all about braking points and acceleration points that will ONLY work if the car is perfectly set-up. Apparently he was very, very good with his feedback to the mechanics.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by William Hunt
I was talking about Monaco 1966.

William - forgive me - but why do you find that a 'surprising' victory????

DCN

[William Hunt]

1966 was a very special year. It was a year of surprises and lots of defected engines. That was bacause it was the first year that the new 3-liter formula was introduced.

A lot of teams weren't ready for that and started the season with old engines that were adapted to the new rules. Lotus, BRM, Eagle and Honda were experiencing problems . Bruce McLaren & Dan Gurney had started a new team. Cooper put Maserati engines in their cars. Everybody expected Ferrari to dominate since they had a perfect 3 littre engine ready. But they didn't and not Surtees, Bandini, Clark of Graham Hill but veteran Jack Brabham would become a surprising world champion.

In Monaco, the first race of that season, BRM started with an old car and engine. (Eagle & Honda were absent). Clark took the pole ahead of Surtees' Ferrari and the BRM's of Jackie and Graham and on the followed by Bandini (Ferrari) , Hulme (Brabham) , Rindt (Cooper) , Anderson (private Brabham) , Ginther (Cooper), McLaren (McLaren), Brabham (Brabham), Spence (Parnell entered Lotus), Siffert (Rob Walker Brabham), Bonnier (Anglo Suisse Cooper), Ligier (private Cooper) and Bondurant (Chamco Collect BRM) . Phil Hill (private Lotus) was a non starter.

At the start Clark's Lotus jammed and the whole field surged past him with Surtees leading the pack ahead of the young Stewart who had tucked his BRM right after the Ferrari wen the start was given. It stayed that way for 14 laps, the 2 cars opening a clear lead. Bu then Surtees felt his differential breaking up. After waving Stewart to pass he pulled into the pits and retired. Meanwhile Rindt and Hulme had past Graham Hill but at the same time that Surtees had his problems the New Zealander had to stop with a broken driveshaft. Stewart was now first, Rindt 2nd, G. Hill 3rd and then followed Bandini, Anderson and McLaren. Brabham had already retired. Spence, Siffert, Rindt and Clark would follow with Ginther retirting close to the finish. Stewart led Bandini, Graham Hill and Bob Bondurant to his first victory. Only 4 cars would finish that race (never ever have less cars finished a GP) and is was Jackie's first GP win, since '66 was only his second GP season.

The fact that a relative newcomer won in a car that wasn't fully prepared for the new rules in a race where so many people dropped out with technical problems can be called a surprise win. And it was Jackie's first of many, therefore should not be forgotten !

[fines]

Originally posted by William Hunt
(snip) Only 4 cars would finish that race (never ever have less cars finished a GP) and is was Jackie's first GP win, since '66 was only his second GP season.

There were in fact many races with just one finisher, Spain '69 and Australia '95 spring to mind. But if you're talking about fewest cars "running at finish", then look no further than Monaco '96: Panis, Coulthard and Herbert (that's three unless I'm very much mistaken).

And about John Young's first win, I happen to recall him winning Italy 1965, and by my careful reckoning that was a tad before the following year...

[Crazy Canuck]

I'd have to agree with the consensus that Nurburgring '68 is JYS' best drive.


CC

[Doug Nye]

William - Do not be surprised when the car that is best-suited to a particular circuit on a particular day, and is driven by a very special driver, wins a race...

DCN

[William Hunt]

Spa 1967 was possibly Jackie Stewart's bravest & best drive.

[Excell]

In my book it was Nurburgring 1968 and Spa 1967 driving with one hand while he was holding the gear lever with the other . Awesome

[moody]

..yes German Grand Prix in 1968, but I also rate the win he had in the French Grand Prix in 1972 at Clermont Ferrand after his illness an achievement on this circuit..

[Carlos Jalife]

He had an amazing drive in the vaccum blower Chaparral in Can Am, that was spectacular!

[LB]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
My vote would be 1968 German at Nurburgring.

Stavelot, why 1973 South Africa? I remember that Stewart came from 15th or 16th on the grid to win, but also that he passed most of the drivers ahead of him while the yellow flags were out following Regazzoni's accident. If I remember correctly some teams protested the win but he escaped with only a warning.

Rob

Does anyone have more detail on this as the subject cropped up somewhere on another forum, where someone claims Stewart passed 12 cars under yellow, I must admit I didn't know anything at all about it. Does anyone know why the protest was reduced to a warning. Reading Adriano Cimarostis book only says it was a McLaren protest against the overtaking of one car but he also says he qualifyed 10th which I believe is untrue. He was 16th on the grid according to two sources and was in the lead by lap 7.

can anyone fill in the gaps?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Keir
I never rated the Ring '68 very highly, (way too much a tire and car advantage) than Jackie's skill.

The British GP of '69 was much more a show of Jackie's talent.

I agree. The only interesting aspect about Ring 68 was the wrist issue. Having a 4 minute lead on what would have been a 10minute lap isnt that impressive, certainly no more so than a modern GP being won by half a lap.

[LB]

Ross the track length is irrelevent 2h 19 mins was the race time for Nurburgring 1968 Hill was 4 mins behind at 2h23 to complete the 14 laps
or 102.8% of the timeof Stewart

Half a lap these days is 40 secs say in a 1h40min gp or 100.40% of the time of the winner.

[LB]

Hill in adelaide 1995 won by 2 laps and 2 secs over Panis in a 1h49min race. Hills fastest lap was 1m17 so say 1m24 for Panis or 2m50 behind Hill say 3mins to be generous.. Panis's race time would then be 102.7% behind Hill. Still even being generous Stewarts gap was bigger.

[oldtimer]

Somehow, I don't think the % thing means much when comparing the Nordscliefe to a modern track...

[Rob Ryder]

LB

Stewart started in 16th on the grid as you correctly stated. At the end of the first lap he was up to 10th place, were he remained to the end of lap 2. he was 7th on laps 3 & 4, 4th on lap 5, 3rd on lap 6 and took the lead on lap 7.

This is what 'Jenks' reported in Motor Sport magazine..

"Jackie Stewart will remember his win in the 1973 South African Grand Prix for a long time.... with only seven laps of the race completed the Scot was in the lead and he was never challenged...

... At the start of the third lap an accident occurred at Crowthorne Bend which put four cars out of the race. One of the drivers, Clay Regazzoni, was trapped in the BRM which was on fire, and it was only thanks to the extreme bravery of Mike Hailwood, who was also involved in the accident, that the Swiss driver's life was saved...

.... It took 3 laps to extricate Regazzoni from the wreckage and, while this was taking place, Stewart moved up from 7th to 1st.....

... Stewart was alledged to have passed at least 3 cars under yellow or white flags, including Jody Scheckter (& Revson according to Autocourse)...

... Immediately the race was over the recriminations started and McLaren's Teddy Mayer filed an official protest against Stewart's tactics. The stewards listened to the various sides of the story and, after due consideration, severely reprimanded Stewart who neverthelass had denied the allegations...

... One wonders if it had been Regazzoni, Reutemann, Scheckter or someone like that who had commited the same offence, whether the decision would have been disqualification." DSJ

I am sure someone else will fill in with a more detailed report of the events/decisions at Kyalami.

Rob

[LB]

Originally posted by oldtimer
Somehow, I don't think the % thing means much when comparing the Nordscliefe to a modern track...

nope but it shows how big the gap was to Ross which is why I used it. Considering Hills advantage was against a Ligier and JYS was against a World Champion on the Nordschiefe car advantage or not that was a hell of a drive.

Thank you very much Rob great information. I really should get hold of the earlier Autocourses ( I have them from the mid 80's or so).

[Rob Ryder]

Originally posted by LB
Thank you very much Rob great information. I really should get hold of the earlier Autocourses

Be prepared to pay some CRAZY prices if you want 1970's editions... a 1978 copy is currently going on EBay at £167!!

[Don Capps]

While echoing DCN on the greatest "whatever" issue, this does not mean that the eyebrow doesn't arch at times or the eyes get that distance look at times....

The 1968 German GP at the Nurburgring with a (very slowly) healing broken wrist, and the 1971 Monaco GP with no rear braking were definitely drives in which Stewart showed his remarkable abilities. Excellent drives and reasons that many of us cheered the '...wee Scot...'

I think that there was another drive which clearly demonstated his potential and one of the reasons I was in corner early on -- the F3 race in the wet at Snetterton in March of 1964...

[Doug Nye]

When the wee Scot agreed to drive the Chaparral 'sucker car' he presented himself at MIdland, Texas, to drive the car for the first time in private testing. Jim Hall was not quite sure what to expect. He was certainly rocked back on his heels when JYS first insisted upon inspecting the Rattlesnake Raceway test track before he went out in the car. Jim was even more rocked back, he recalled, when JYS said he wanted this moved, and that removed, and a man stationed there with a fire extinguisher, and another stationed there...etc etc etc. Jim was really beginning to think to himself "And I thought Surtees was a squirrel..." by the time his latest British driver expressed himself satisfied with conditions to test.

Jim added: "But then he got in my car and MAAAANNNN! Did he stand ON IT!!!".

I would suggest that higher praise has seldom been uttered?

DCN

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Doug Nye

Jim added: "But then he got in my car and MAAAANNNN! Did he stand ON IT!!!".

I would suggest that higher praise has seldom been uttered?

DCN

Lovely

The day Stewart made the biggest impression on me was the first day I saw him. Can't remember whether it was the International Trophy or the GP support, but I was spectating at Silverstone on the exit to Stowe....F3 race. Didn't expect to see a Cooper with a BMC A series engine way out in front , but it was. I had never heard of JYS until that day, but I took note.

[MichaelJP]

Going back to 1968 at the Nordschleife, I've often wondered why JYS thought it was necessary to build up such a huge lead in such treacherous conditions.

For a man who was famous for being a "thinking" driver, and certainly renowned for taking no more risks than necessary, it seemed that he surely could have settled for a safe 1 minute margin and lapped some 12 seconds a lap slower?

Or was it the difficulty of communicating his race position and timing over such a long lap?

Can anyone throw any light on this?

- MichaelJP

[Ray Bell]

Keeping himself running at a level that kept his concentration up might be a part of it...

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by MichaelJP
Going back to 1968 at the Nordschleife, I've often wondered why JYS thought it was necessary to build up such a huge lead in such treacherous conditions.

For a man who was famous for being a "thinking" driver, and certainly renowned for taking no more risks than necessary, it seemed that he surely could have settled for a safe 1 minute margin and lapped some 12 seconds a lap slower?

Or was it the difficulty of communicating his race position and timing over such a long lap?

Can anyone throw any light on this?

- MichaelJP

Not the first time you've asked this:
http://www.atlasf1.c...urburgring 1968

I don't think he took more risks than necessary, I think he decided to stay focused all the time because of the treacherous conditions, and just went as fast as he was as a result of that.

BTW there is another thread about his pace:
http://www.atlasf1.c...art German 1968
And it looks like he was, in a way, "slowing down" slightly in the second part of the race, i.e. gaining less seconds per lap than in the first part. But still fast enough for a 4 minutes lead at the finish line....