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Brabham BT30-17


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#1 bschenker

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Posted 08 May 2002 - 07:51

Some were can help my, for the full history of the Brabham BT30 – 17 formula 2.
I have it’s retired by Brabham 1971 with a new Cosworth FVA engine.
After the Imola practise crash, for a bad tyre, we changed the bend frame always with a BT36 type (by Brabham), but still with the original number (custom).
I don’t remember on how we sold the car, on the end of the season.
Must by the car used by Jack Brabham and Jackie Stewart in the 1970 season.

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#2 fines

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Posted 08 May 2002 - 14:52

That was John Coombs' car, and if I recall correctly it was also driven on occasion by Graham Hill. Maybe later today I can provide a full race-by-race account.

#3 fines

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Posted 08 May 2002 - 18:25

John Coombs Racing
1970-03-30 Thruxton T, #1 Jackie Stewart, 2nd
1970-04-05 GP de Pau, #18 Jack Brabham, 13th (retired, fuel metering unit)
1970-05-25 London T, #1 Jackie Stewart, 1st
1970-06-28 GP de Rouen, #2 Jack Brabham, 8th
1970-07-26 T France F2, #1 Jackie Stewart, 24th (retired, clutch)
1970-08-30 Mantorp Park F2 T, #5 Joakim Bonnier, 6th
1970-09-13 FR Tulln-Langenlebarn, #7 Jack Brabham, 2nd

Paul Watson Racing Organisation (Mike Goth)
1970-09-27 GP C di Imola, #48 Mike Goth, 6th
1970-10-11 P von Baden-Württemberg und Hessen, #28 Mike Goth, 19th (retired, overheating)
1970-11-22 GP of Israel, Mike Goth, 4th (dns, race cancelled)

Marlboro Racing (Silvio Moser)
1971-05-16 GP de Madrid, #37 Silvio Moser, 9th
1971-05-31 London T, #20 Silvio Moser, 7th
1971-06-13 GP Madunina, #5 Silvio Moser, 20th (dns, crash)
1971-06-20 GP della Lotteria, #12 Silvio Moser, 32nd (dns, too slow)
1971-06-27 GP de Rouen, #29 Silvio Moser, 26th (dns, too slow)

#4 fines

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Posted 08 May 2002 - 18:28

Sheldon has the new frame as BT36-11, but no info after 1971.

#5 David McKinney

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Posted 08 May 2002 - 18:38

A BT30 numbered 17 was offered at auction in the UK in 1996, having apparently been owned by one Continental owner for the previous 20 years.
A BT36 numbered 11 was raced in historic events by Alain Filhol 1992, then Ermanno Ronchi.
I believe this car was auctioned by Brooks at Monaco two years ago

#6 bschenker

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Posted 08 May 2002 - 21:50

Thank's !

I entered in England with ‘carne ATA’ and frame number BT30 – 17 and sort with the same number. The same in inverse order for the Swiss custom.
I have to find out where the car is going after us.

Have luck on this site:http://www.paragonracingltd.com/formula2.html

I asked for the history, response: Dear Beat, I’m sorry, but I cannot.

#7 bschenker

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Posted 09 May 2002 - 19:08

Marlboro Racing (Silvio Moser)
1971-05-16 GP de Madrid, #37 Silvio Moser, 9th
1971-05-31 London T, #20 Silvio Moser, 7th
1971-06-13 GP Madunina, #5 Silvio Moser, 20th (dns, crash)
1971-06-20 GP della Lotteria, #12 Silvio Moser, 32nd (dns, too slow)
1971-06-27 GP de Rouen, #29 Silvio Moser, 26th (dns, too slow)



I think this list is not complete.

The Brabham Cosworth BT30 - 17 was property of the Silvio Moser Racing Team SA, the Marlboro entrance was for sponsoring (10’000.— SFr. on end of the year) and 1971 was the only year with Firestone tires.
16th May 1971 Grandprix of Madrid at Jarama (E) 9th rang
31st May 1971 19 London Trophy at Crystal Palace (GB) Heat1: 1th rang Final: 7th rang 6th rang lost about a 10sec penalization for push start. I put out for several time the signaling ‘pen 10sec’, but Silvio don’t understand, after hi minds hi were able to make the different for holding the 6th rang.
13th June 1971 1. Grandprix Madunina at Vallelunga (I) 4th rang in the practice, finished with an accident for misunderstanding to passing a slow turning driver. Wee founded not enough parts for fit the car for the race.
20th June 1971 Grandprix Lotteria at Monza (I) dnq for ignition problems. Pedrazzani from Novamotor (why had a assistance accord for the engine for 1971), was not able to find the problem, the engine works only after change to breaker contact system with a 6V coil, but engine turns not over 7500 – 8000 revs. First time furnishing slick tires from Firestone in Formula 2.
27th June 1971 Grandprix de Rouen (F) dnq for final Retired on lap 13, on heat 2 for engine vibration, Cosworth found a crankshaft beginning to braking.
25th July 1971 Grandprix city of Imola (I) dns for accident in practice.
Why started practice very well with the slick tires, immediately Firestone stop us, imposing to fit normal tires otherwise no tires for the rest of season. For a wrong prevision Firestone thinks for Imola is better this solution and was without slicks for the others teams. After the tire change Silvio was started for the lancing lap, losing the car on the first corner of the timing lap (Tamburello). Only after taking of the bodywork why was able to sea the bended frame. Wee found sign from mounting tools on one rear tire, reason for tire fails and with this for the damage on the car. Firestone gives us a free tire. We have some problem to find the money for the repair. Like my, Ron Tauranac means best is change the frame and with this was used a BT36 and only the material not damage on the accident. The Swiss custom has never accepted only the dashboard number, and so also in the frame was stamped, by Brabham, the BT30 – 17 numbers and for al the rest of season the inscriptions and custom documents was with this number.
26th September 1971 XXIX Grandprix d’Albi (F) dnq for ignition problems. Like at Monza Novamotor was not able to resolve the problem. Going to Novara after 10min on the test bench the engine works finally.
3rd October 1971 Prix Baden-Wuerttemberg (D) at Hockenheim 4th rang
10th October 1971 Grandprix Rom (I) at Vallelunga 14th rang We have same problem with the car since the practice, but I cant remember watt’s and have not notice.
17th October 1971 2. Grandprix Madunina (I) at Vallelunga 6th rang (on Brabham BT30 – 17 and not March 712M), lucks like I funded the problem from the week before.

I found on different places a DNA for the first Brazilian race, can’t understand this, only invited (engaged) drivers were accepted and Silvio Moser was refused. I have not any idea why.

#8 fines

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Posted 10 May 2002 - 12:39

Thanks Beat. Obviously, I was only listing the appearances of the original frame.

[Very interesting, to read more about the background of these results! :up: :up:]

#9 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 21:04

I now have 10 photos of Moser's accident at Imola, X Gran Premio Città di Imola 1971, July 25th 1971. Car number 18, reason faulty tyre,
and without any question the car was his new BT36, 'Jolly Club' on the front body, & 'Marlboro' on the cockpit sides and rear wing.

Sorry Beat, but his means that BT30-17 had its last race at Rouen on the 27th June, but where did it go next?

I've just found this ad, June 1974, and I wonder if its BT30-17.

Brabham BT30 F2

FVA-Motor 1600 ccm, elektrische Aundung. 245 PS, mit 4 Regenreifen, 4 neun Slick Firestone, 4 Slick Dunlop.
Komplette Getriebeubersetzung.
2 Achsen, 10 Felgen.
Verhandlungsbasis Fr. 25 000.-

Telefon 022 - 71 19 16




#10 David M. Kane

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 21:23

I think Bob Baker owns this car, if so it is run by GMT Racing in Connecticut, USA.

#11 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 21:48

David, yes Bob has the car and I talked to him a year ago and he has no history on the car at all. I dont have his new email either as I was going to let him know about these photos, not that it alters the history of his car but it does remove one of the poblems!

Andrew

#12 bschenker

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 22:14

I have not any reason to change my version

Can you give me a valid reason to change an intact BT30 for a BT36, during a season.

Remember, the team were continuing in bankruptcy danger.

Speak with Ron Tauranac, Frank Williams, John Surtees, Heini Mader or Jürg Dubler, about their idea of the financial situation from Silvio Moser.

#13 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 22:43

Beat I have just emailed the photos to you to have a look at. When you have had a look please let me know what you think.

Thanks Andrew

#14 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 23:09

Originally posted by bschenker
Remember, the team were continuing in bankruptcy danger.

Yes, I remember reading that in Autosport, but didn't Marlboro come up with money?

#15 bschenker

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 23:16

Thanks for the photos, have you this also in bigger size.
My first comment on 1971 was “Not so bad”; the damage was visibly only taking of the Bodywork.

Anyways, how you can say is a BT30 or a BT36 looking only a photo

Bodywork, suspensions and the other parts from a BT30 you can fit to a BT36. The same is possibly with the BT36 part to a BT30.

Marlboro sponsorship was 10’000.—SFr. on the end of the year.

#16 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 23:40

The BT36 has in-board rear brakes, the BT30 outboard. The engine covers are different, tapered in a BT30, Kamm tail in a BT36. The roll hoop is full width in a BT36 and narrow in a BT30. The rear trailing arms are longer on a BT36. The wing mounts from the rear cross member on a 36 and leans backwards, its vertical on a BT30 above each corner. Mosers' BT30 also had two stays to brace the rear wing that were attached to the roll hoop. (Fuel tanks and front wings were the same on both cars).
This ia a BT30, but missing its wings. Posted Image
Hope that helps Andrew

-oh & with the photos, they are copyright so I cant post them here, but I will have the bigger ones next week with luck and perhaps can post you one.

#17 bschenker

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 00:16

So we wait for the great photos!
Have you my text in German send to Allen Brown.
Translate the part from Rouen with the Google langue tool, is not perfect but give some response.

I repeat

Our car was sold on end of 1971
And I insist with my story,
Story with which I not wining anything, and I have no reason to make a change.

#18 Ted Walker

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 09:07

I was offered this car by a previous "long term" owner in Switzerland. He contacted me wanting its previous racing history. It was chassis 17 because it had all the "special features" that were added by Coombes of Guilford team at the requst of I beleive a certain Mr JY Stewart.I had some photos which I cannot find at the moment.When the car returned to the UK the owner had the chassis restored by someone who removed these features thinking they were un-original.

#19 David M. Kane

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 14:18

Ted:

Brilliant, simply brilliant...what would JYS know anyway?

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#20 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 21:41

Beat this is what I have for 1971 that has come from Autosport, Motoring News Powerslide and F1R, my thanks to TNF member BT35-8 for some of these details

Motoring News, 11th Feb 1971, Front Page

BT36’s for Stommelen, Moser
…….also expecting a BT36 in time for a full European season is Silvio Moser, who is persevering with his Jolly Club BT30 in Columbia at present.
Silvio has decided to retire his F1 Bellasi……


1971
Brabham BT30-17
April 4th Hockenheim, Silvio Moser, d.n.a.
May 16th Jarama, Silvio Moser, 9th
May 31st Crystal Palace, Silvio Moser, 7th
June 13th Vallelunga, Silvio Moser, d.n.s. F1R reports In practice Moser lost it at 140 mph , bounced along the Armco and came to rest with the chassis badly tweaked at the back, did not start.
June 20th Monza, Silvio Moser, d.n.q.
June 27th Rouen, Silvio Moser, d.n.q.
Brabham BT36-11
July 25th Imola, Silvio Moser, d.n.s. Autosport says Moser in his new BT36 with Novamotor mill, (F1R Brabham BT36-11).
''Moser went quite well on Friday morning at 1.39.17 , but completely lost it during the afternoon session in the long left hander after the pits and quite wrote off the BT36 which is almost becoming a habit with him.''

August 8th Mantorp Park, Silvio Moser, d.n.a.
September 12, Tulln-Langlebarn, Silvio Moser, d.n.a Autosport reports Moser did not arrive as his new BT36 is not ready yet.
September 26th Albi, Silvio Moser, d.n.q. Autosport report Moser's transporter broke down, and he missed 1st. practice.
October 3rd Hockenheim, Silvio Moser, 4th
October 10th Vallelunga, Silvio Moser, 10th
October 6th, Vallelunga, Silvio Moser, 6th

I dug around last night for a picture of Silvio's BT30, this is the best I could find at short notice. Its not only easy to spot it as a BT30 but the two wing stays set it apart from all other BT30s.
Posted Image
Crystal Palace 1971 Copyright Powerslide

#21 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 21:57

Beat this is my guess as to what happened, please understand that it's just a guess on my part, I wasn't there!

1. Silvio orders a new BT36 at the start of 1971but to keep him going he buys the ex Coombs BT30 from Mike Goth.
2. His BT36 is delivered at last in July, (Ron was late with all orders that year)
3. First time out at Imola he bends it badly.
4. In September Autosport says Moser is still waiting for his new BT36

As someone who was not there I have concluded from all that, Moser had a BT30 that he replaced in July with a BT36 that he had already ordered, he then had to replace the BT36 chassis with a new BT36 chassis.

Newspapers get things wrong very often but here we have both Autosport and Motoring News singing the same tune. The photographic evidence is conclusive that the car at Imola was the BT36.


Perhaps I can conclude with a request? I need any French and Swiss hill climb results for 1972 to say 1975 to see what BT30s and 36s were around at the time so I can fill in the missing gaps on Allen's web page here for the BT30s http://www.oldracing...es/brabham/bt30 can anyone help please?

#22 Allen Brown

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 00:38

1971
Brabham BT36-11

July 25th Imola, Silvio Moser, d.n.s. Autosport says Moser in his new BT36 with Novamotor mill, (F1R Brabham BT36-11).
''Moser went quite well on Friday morning at 1.39.17 , but completely lost it during the afternoon session in the long left hander after the pits and quite wrote off the BT36 which is almost becoming a habit with him.''

Sport Auto's report on this race says Moser had a BT36 and mentions that it was chassis number 11.

Allen

#23 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 02:14

Thanks for the email Beat.

I am going to blame google language tool for my inablity to understand sooner. Here is a very short version, if I have got this wrong, please let me know Beat.


Silvio Moser had one car all season, it was up rated to BT36 spec with a new chassis because of excessive damage to the old one. The old chassis, but without its chassis plate, was left at MRD. I guess we would now call it a dead chassis.

I conclude that Silvio must have had both plates for the one car, hence in the second half of 1971 it could have been called a BT30/36 (as per Watsons) or a BT36, but the Carnet for customs said BT30-17.

Andrew

#24 bschenker

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 21:28

1 After Imola in mid August, at the Brabham Factory in Weybridge, the decision whether to repair or change the original chassis was left to Ron Tauranac.

2 The new chassis type BT36 was marked as BT30-17 at the Brabham factory in Weybridge.

3 The damaged BT30-17 chassis was left by Brabham to be destroyed.

4 I do not believe that Ron Tauranac is the type of person that would sell a chassis, for which nothing was paid, and that was changed due to his own decision.

5 The remains of the original chassis are to be researched starting at the Brabham Factory in Weybridge.

6 In 1971, we have never owned any other “chassis plate” other than the BT30-17.

7 Neither the Silvio Moser Racing Team nor Silvio Moser have bought any other car outside the BT30-17 during 1971.

#25 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 21:38

So from which source did the several journalists get the BT36 chassis number in period and from which source did the (original) chassis plate that is on BT36/11 today come from?

#26 Allen Brown

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 22:53

Beat

Do you remember who bought the car from you after 1971?

Allen

#27 bschenker

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 23:00

No

#28 Peter Morley

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 08:24

Originally posted by Simon Hadfield
So from which source did the several journalists get the BT36 chassis number in period and from which source did the (original) chassis plate that is on BT36/11 today come from?


Beat says the Swiss customs only considered a number stamped in the chassis rather than a chassis plate, so is it possible that the BT36 frame had BT30-17 stamped on it (to match the existing customs carnet) while the car had the BT36-11 plate on the dashboard.
Except Beat says they only had the BT30 chassis plate!