124 replies to this topic

[MarkWill]

Hi,

Can anyone answer these questions:

1. Have there ever been any car racing tracks built on the grounds of a horse racing track, other than Goodwood (which was used for both horses and cars, but not the same track, I think?)

2. Was Chester ever a motor racing venue?

[BRG]

The Goodwood horse and car tracks are some distance apart. The horses run up on the top of the South Downs (a range of hills), whilst the car track is in fact the perimeter road of St Mary's Airfield, down on the plain near the town of Chicester. It is much nearer to Goodwood House, after which the car track was named. It is (like the horse track) owned by the Earl of March, who lives in Goodwood House.

Aintree (in Liverpool, UK) is/was for both cars and horses and isn't Sandown Park in Australia for both as well?

[Darren Galpin]

The Curragh in Ireland, used from 1949, and Chicago Motor Speedway used for CART racing (including this year) come to mind.

[Rob29]

Add Warwick Farm,Australia & Pukekoe,NZ. I believe in the USA cars often raced on the same dirt as the horses.

[Buford]

Midgets and Sprint Cars in the USA race on tracks that also run horses all the time. These are primarily at county and state fair facilities.

[FEV]

Litterally teens (if not huindreds) of American speedways were built on horse tracks I believe.

[David McKinney]

There was small-beer racing on lots of New Zealand horse tracks in the 1920s and 1930s. In a later period, Levin and Pukekohe were both constructed in the grounds of horse racecourses to take advantage of exisiting grandstands etc

[Ray Bell]

Warwick Farm was both inside and outside the horse-racing course.

Sandown is outside, though the extensions for the WSCC races took a loop inside the horse track.

Towac (Orange NSW) was entirely inside the horse track.

The Australian Grand Prix of 1927 was held on the horse track at Goulburn.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Buford
Midgets and Sprint Cars in the USA race on tracks that also run horses all the time. These are primarily at county and state fair facilities.

The first recorded contest between self-propelled land vehicles was on the horse racing track at the the Oshkosh, Wisconsin fairgrounds. As Buford and Frank both point out, horse racing tracks at county or state fairgrounds were the birthplace of much of American racing. Indeed, the oldest automotive racetrack in continuous use is a former horse racing track -- the one at the Indiana State Fairgrounds in Indianapolis.

[MarkWill]

Did anyone find out if Chester horse race course was ever used for car racing? My father says he thinks it was, but I haven't seen anything on the 'net (I'm careful to check the 'net first these days).

[Speed Demon]

Peter Swinger's pretty comprehensive 'Motor Racing Circuits in England' makes no mention of Chester.

How about adding Duynrigt in the Netherlands to the list? Dover Downs in the USA is built around a harness racing track.

[bobbo]

Originally posted by Speed Demon
. . .Dover Downs in the USA is built around a harness racing track.

AAARRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!

You beat me to it!

ALso, like so many other places, our State Fairgrounds has a dirt horse track that is used for cars, hosts a demolition derby and motorcycle races (AMA, I think).

Bobbo

[David McKinney]

Chester raccourse might have been used for midget-car racing, and as such would be outside the scope of Pete Swinger's book

[D. Heimgartner]

They should run the Kentucky Derby at Bristol! It be interesting to see a 10-horse-pileup in one of those 35 degree turns, horses and jockeys sliding down the banking, 150,000 fans going wild!

[Barry Boor]

Knowing Chester extremely well, (I've even been horse racing there once! ) I would be amazed to hear of any car racing there.

There is no tarmac or dirt road either inside or outside the horse track and the race course is bounded by railway arches along a fair bit of its length.

Also, the horse race track is actually one big circle with virtually no straight section at all.

I wonder how many of the motor/horse tracks mentioned so far in this thread actually crossed eachother as Aintree did?

Here is the circuit map from the centre of the 1961 British Grand Prix programme showing both the car track and the Grand National course (shown in mottled shade.)

[David McKinney]

If they were midgets, they would have raced on the grass. It happened elsewhere

[MarkWill]

Hi Barry,

Is it possible that there was something like a rallycross race there? I agree, Chester looks a bit unlikely as a race venue, but thats whjat he thinks. If not, are you suggesting that Aintree might be what he's referring to? It would make sense, although my father is far from being dotty and forgetful.

[lynmeredith]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
snip
I wonder how many of the motor/horse tracks mentioned so far in this thread actually crossed eachother as Aintree did?

I seem to remember that the Warwick farm tracks crossed each other with sand laid on the tarmac for the benefit of the horses. And the equestrian types did not like it at all.

Lyn M

[Ray Bell]

Only in the latter stages, Lyn....

Geoff Sykes often said that he had trouble with the AJC, who insisted that the horses and their precious grass track were far more important than the cars, hence there was for many years crossings made of timber with steel outer frames and covered with tar-soaked canvas.

I forgot to mention the horse track at Toowoomba, where the airport now lies... there were car races held there in the twenties.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by MarkWill
Hi Barry,

Is it possible that there was something like a rallycross race there? I agree, Chester looks a bit unlikely as a race venue, but thats whjat he thinks. If not, are you suggesting that Aintree might be what he's referring to? It would make sense, although my father is far from being dotty and forgetful.

Not a Rallycross but maybe a rally STAGE. I seem to have heard of these on race courses,the RAC Rally used to start in Chester.

[Barry Boor]

Not a Rallycross but maybe a rally STAGE. I seem to have heard of these on race courses,the RAC Rally used to start in Chester.

Not being a rally fan, I cannot confirm this but I am pretty certain that Rob is correct. The RAC Rally started from Chester a few times so surely they must have had an opening stage there somewhere along the way?

[LB]

Didn't Adelaide GP circuit cross a horse track?

[lynmeredith]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Only in the latter stages, Lyn....

Geoff Sykes often said that he had trouble with the AJC, who insisted that the horses and their precious grass track were far more important than the cars, hence there was for many years crossings made of timber with steel outer frames and covered with tar-soaked canvas.

I forgot to mention the horse track at Toowoomba, where the airport now lies... there were car races held there in the twenties.

<> Phew that sounds hairy. I remember arriving at the crossing one practice day and the jockeys who had been exercising their steeds were refusing to leave the track and we couldn't get across. I think it was some sort of union dispute. And being Australia, and being horse racing, they seemed to be getting their way. Dangerous things horses, too.

Lyn M

[Darren Galpin]

Talking of the RAC Rally (sorry, Network Q Rally of GB - I must keep remembering that....) - it used to start in Cheltenham, and the first stage was a lap of the surfaced roads inside Cheltenham racecourse.

[Doug Nye]

Gatwick Airport was a horse race venue pre-war and sprints were held there for cars.

DCN

[BRG]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
The RAC Rally started from Chester a few times so surely they must have had an opening stage there somewhere along the way?

Chester race-course has indeed been used for rally starts and finishes (the RAC and some national events as well).

But AFAIK, there was never a stage there. For RAC Rallies based in Chester, Oulton Park was used as a spectator stage. The idea of "super-specials" at rally starts/finishes is quite recent and Cheltenham is the only one that we have had in the UK, I believe.

[Speed Demon]

Originally posted by LB
Didn't Adelaide GP circuit cross a horse track?

Yes the final few turns and the pit straight are inside Victoria Park Racecourse. The race track crosses the turf twice.

[MarkWill]

Phew! So my father isn't completely dotty. He swears he saw race cars at the Chester race track, and as any loving respectful son would have done, I NEARLY started to mock the state of his grey matter, before I had the inspired idea to call here. Still, an RAC rally start isn't quite a race, is it, and I'm sure he was talking about a time in the early sixties?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by lynmeredith
.... I remember arriving at the crossing one practice day and the jockeys who had been exercising their steeds were refusing to leave the track and we couldn't get across. I think it was some sort of union dispute. And being Australia, and being horse racing, they seemed to be getting their way. Dangerous things horses, too.

Yes indeed...

I remember Geoff on a couple of occasions explaining about the Australian Jockey Club and their ideas. When he told them that in Britain they had laid the circuit and then covered it with sand or soil for the horses, they simply told him, "But you poms don't know how to run horse races, do you?"

By Adelaide time, it was a different matter. And I don't think any horse racing establishment in Australia bar the Flemington and Caulfield one (ones?) would have the clout and snobbery seen in the AJC.

Actually, come to think of it, I think I remember that day too... when do you think it happened? I wonder if the contemporary reports mentioned it... practice started half an hour or so late, right?

[MarkWill]

Do I understand this correctly - they were horses on the track during a race weekend????!!!!!!! The horses must have been deaf, and the riders either had balls of steel, or an unshakeable belief in their superiority over the racing crowd. Still, definitely one for the books (I would never have thought that such a thing could happen, but it just goes to show....)

What suprises me with this thread is that the brits look pretty shabby next to the Americans and the Australians and New sealander' when it comes to sharing their turf.And what of the french??? My idea behind all of this was to try a scalextric track, mixing their unsuccessful horse race track with a car track layout. New house and basement permits fantasies

[lynmeredith]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Actually, come to think of it, I think I remember that day too... when do you think it happened? I wonder if the contemporary reports mentioned it... practice started half an hour or so late, right?

Some time either in 1969 or 1970 which was the time that I was working for Matich.

MarkWill gasped Do I understand this correctly - they were horses on the track during a race weekend????!!!!!!!

Well yes, sort of. They would exercise the horses on the track say from 6 to 8 o'clock in the morning and then take them off to the stables to do whatever they do with horses in stables. These would have been well away from the track and so presumably no noise problem for the gee-gees. And after practice in the evening they would trot out again and do a few furlongs before bedtime. It was necessary to look carefully at where you were putting your feet. But of course us oily motoring types were not actually allowed on the turf. The Australian Jockey Club owned the track and set the rules. Probably run by a guy called Bernie.

Lyn M

[MarkWill]

Hi Lyn,

Stunning!!! (adds even more gasps and swoons lightly, taking care not to knock over only functional keyboard in house). Any DNF due to horse poop??? I'm sure not, but had it been me, the temptation to actually pull a fast one on one of these horsey types might have proven too strong (trouble is, its the horse, not the rider who generally suffers, e.g. horse is shot "to put it out of its misery" when leg broken, as opposed to rider, who would get a splint and a nice cup of tea for same problem). I jest - I once met Princess Anne, who said she prefers horses to people, so watch out if you ever ride a horse for her.

On a "No, really" basis, I had always imagined that the horse track and the car track would be distinct, but within the same perimeter.

[Ray Bell]

Actually, Lyn, they never trotted the horses out after practice or races. It was only in the mornings, at least on race weekends.

As one who knew intimately the surroundings, who stayed till well after dark enjoying the ambience of the place, I can verify this.

After the morning run, which I think was more like from 5:30 to 7:00 or so, the tractors would be out grading away the sand, or the men would be setting up the timber track in the earlier times, a crew very busy getting things right... oh, yes, removing the running rails etc...

They would, of course, be setting these things back in place after the races, but no more horses till the morning.

As for horses on the circuit... Never! They wouldn't put their lightweight carbon fibre (or whatever they used...) shoes at risk on hotmix! They only ran across the crossings, and that was all swept away, sand and all.

[Graham Clayton]

The now defunct Victoria Park racecourse in inner-suburban Sydney was used for both biek and car racing in the immediate post WW1 period.

In 1956 and 1957, stock-car only meetings were run at the Bankstown Paceway (trotting) track in the south-west suburbs of Sydney. A couple of years ago, speedway legend Ivan Mauger ran a "one-off" solo meeting there as well.

[Leif Snellman]

In the early 50s several Finnish trotting tracks were used for Midget racing.

[lynmeredith]

Markwill and Ray Bell

I see the confusion. When I said track I meant the grassy one, not the bitumen one. The horses were on the green bit and the cars on the black bit, at least in theory. But they were alongside each other (the tracks that is - oh dear). Ray, I admit that I didn't hang around after the event to see if the horses came out again so I stand corrected. But if they had to be on the job at 5-30 they'd need an early night.

At the risk of getting further off track (groan) I have noticed that whenever a jockey is thrown the horse usually not only continues but often finishes first. So are jockeys really needed. I suppose they are there to hold the horses back. On team orders of course. Enough.

Graham Clayton, where in Sydney was Victoria Park? And we've had those Ivan Mauger long track races at the Canberra trotting track too.

LynM

[Graham Clayton]

LynM,
I believe Victoria Park was located near Zetland.

[Ray Bell]

I was once told it was the site for the BMC factory in Zetland. How true this is, I don't know, and when I just went to check in my 1919 street directory of Sydney I find that the Zetland pages are missing altogether!

[Catalina Park]

The BMC/Leyland factory at Zetland was built on the Victoria Park race track some of the horse track buildings were used by BMC and are still standing today.

[Ray Bell]

I guess that's where Morris 1100s were assembled?

[Catalina Park]

Not assembled Ray but Built, there is a big difference!

How many people can say that their car was born and bred on the racetrack!
For some history of BMC at Victoria Park (Zetland) go to BMC in Australia
And
Victoria Park

And this is what the inside of the factory looked like!



And the outside!

[Carlos Jalife]

Originally posted by lynmeredith


where in Sydney was Victoria Park?
LynM [/B]

Well that must be Victoria's Secret no?

[MarkWill]

Victoria's secret

Any difference between Au Morris 1100's and the GB ones?

[BRG]

Maybe the rear subframe didn't rust away so quickly on the Aussie ones!

What are the Riley 1.5/Wolseley 1500 derivatives pictured outside the factory? The front is different from both the UK cars, but the rest of the body looks the same. What were they called in Australia? Did they run single or twin carbs? I have a very soft spot for the Riley - a highly under-rated car.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by lynmeredith
I have noticed that whenever a jockey is thrown the horse usually not only continues but often finishes first. So are jockeys really needed. I suppose they are there to hold the horses back. On team orders of course.LynM

Deleting the driver similarly does wonders for a car's power-to-weight ratio...

DCN

[Rainer Nyberg]

The Morris Oxford is still in production in India and recently got a face-lift!

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by BRG
What are the Riley 1.5/Wolseley 1500 derivatives pictured outside the factory?

BMC Australia produced the Morris Major and Austin Lancer for domestic sale. They did quite well in their class in racing for a while (as you would expect from a Riley 1.5). If you'd asked me 40 years ago whether the cars in the picture are Austin Lancers or Morris Majors I could have told you, but not now I'm sorry. But I'm sure your question will be answered before long ;)

[Carlos Jalife]

Well, since this is deviating from the original thread, I will try to put it back in (horse) track.

In Mexico the famous Hipódromo de las Américas was used for some midget races, but mostly motorcycles in the 50s, the Rodríguez brothers ran there, actually Ricardo had his farewell from motorcycles there. It is a 1 mile (8 furlongs) oval and in recent years it has a Classic Motor Show (vintage) event.
However, in most of the northern tracks in Mexico, like Hermosillo, Zacatecas & Aguascalientes, where the main straight is also used for 1/4 mile and dragster races in most instances, the straight is sometimes covered with land, dirt, whatever you want to call it, and they run "parejeras" which is just for two horses but not necessarily 1/4 mile, usualy half kilometers or even kilometers, depending on the straight, and horses used are anything from pure breeds to ranch ones. But something like Aintree no, we don't even run in grass surfaces. In the parejeras (couples), the betting is heavy.

[lynmeredith]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


Deleting the driver similarly does wonders for a car's power-to-weight ratio...

DCN

Yes but the car doesn't continue to the end of the race. Unless all that electronic stuff is more versatile than I had thought it was.

[MarkWill]

Carlos' information is thought-provoking - so they cover over a part of the car-race track, and use it for horse racing? I admit that it never occurred to me that anyone would want to do that, because I thought it would potentially damage the track?

The two tracks as described by lyn are how I imagined the setup needed to be - with the horse racetrack as a sort of slippery run-off area for the inner track. Now I don't suppose there are any pictures going around....