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#1 Geza Sury

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Posted 03 June 2002 - 06:29

The Coloni team entered Formula One in the second half of the 1987 season with a Cosworth- powered car. (The Coloni FC187) I read in the 1987 Formula One Yearbook, that the car was powered by a 3 litre engine (probably a F3000 unit) inspite of the rules, which allowed 3.5 litre motors. Is this really true? (Forix says the car was equiped with the latest Ford Cosworth DFZ 3.5 V8)

If not, when was the last time in a world championship event that a car run with a considerably smaller engine than the rules allowed?

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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 June 2002 - 09:18

If not... and I can't say whether or not it's right...

There were several 2.7- litre Climax engines used in the first year or two of the 3-litre formula, and I would say you might find a 2.5-litre engine in there somewhere too.

Also there were the 2070cc BRMs and a 2-litre Climax V8 run during 1966 and maybe even into early 1967.

Otherwise, there were many 2.2-litre Climaxes ran in the final year of the 2.5-litre formula. You might find - though I'm not sure - a 1340cc Ford 4 in among the entries in 1962 or 1963. I know Jo Siffert ran one in non-title events.

Not a specific answer, but a starting point.

#3 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 03 June 2002 - 10:38

That would seem odd, if Coloni would have ran with a 3-litre unit. I don't think they did that.

Dallara ran a F3000-car at Brazil in 1988, and I believe that they did run with a 3-litre F3000 unit.

#4 Vitesse2

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Posted 03 June 2002 - 12:55

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Dallara ran a F3000-car at Brazil in 1988, and I believe that they did run with a 3-litre F3000 unit.


Yes, it was straight Dallara 3087, which posted a DNQ. They only sent it so ensure their entry for the year - no one expected it would qualify and even if had, it would have had no chance of finishing, as the fuel tanks were too small (no refuelling in those days!)

#5 DOHC

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Posted 03 June 2002 - 13:27

Originally posted by Ray Bell
There were several 2.7- litre Climax engines used in the first year or two of the 3-litre formula, and I would say you might find a 2.5-litre engine in there somewhere too.

Also there were the 2070cc BRMs and a 2-litre Climax V8 run during 1966 and maybe even into early 1967.


Indeed. Clark ran a 33 with 2.0 Climax V8 in Monaco 1967, the last GP race before the 49 took to track. Hill had a 2.1 BRM engine.

Even in the last GP race that year, Mexico, a Lotus 33 Climax 2.0 was entered. In 1968 the DFV was widely available, but for the first race at Kyalami, Jackie Stewart's Matra was equipped with a Cosworth FVA 1.6 litre engine.

#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 03 June 2002 - 13:43

Originally posted by DOHC
In 1968 the DFV was widely available, but for the first race at Kyalami, Jackie Stewart's Matra was equipped with a Cosworth FVA 1.6 litre engine.


Er, not quite right! Stewart had an F2 Matra available as a spare car, but only drove it in practice. Oddly, it was numbered 26, whereas Stewart's number was 16. Perhaps Uncle Ken originally intended renting a drive to one of the locals, athough both the F2 car and Stewart's MS7 were brand new and had never turned a wheel.

Beltoise did run in a ballasted F2 Matra though - in standard form it wouldn't have qualified as an F1 car - he came sixth.

#7 DOHC

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Posted 03 June 2002 - 14:57

Oops, maybe I mixed them up. I remember what was basically an F2 Matra in South Africa, and maybe it was Beltoise and not Stewart who drove it then. And didn't Beltoise run that car in Mexico in 67 as well? My memory is getting rusty...

#8 Geza Sury

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 07:10

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Dallara ran a F3000-car at Brazil in 1988, and I believe that they did run with a 3-litre F3000 unit.

That answers my question. But as this car wasn't quick enough to get into the race, the last time a car raced with a smaller engine was in 1968. I scrolled through the entry lists of that year and found that Hubert Hahne had entered the 1968 German GP with a 2.0 BMW engine powered Lola, which was an F2 car. It may be the last time last time in a world championship event that a car run with a smaller engine than the rules allowed.

#9 hil?-nice

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 07:27

Within the DNQ club, do not forget Tom Jones (1967 CDN) trying to pedal a V8 1500 cc Climax-powered Cooper (ex-F2 chassis).
Confer to the F1Rejects site.

#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 08:17

I mentioned the possibility of a 2.5 engine in some car or other in 1966... wasn't the Bandini entry at Monaco such a car?

#11 Frank de Jong

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 09:30

Ferrari raced a Tasman Dino 246 in 1966 at Monaco for Bandini, which Surtees would have preferred but was not allowed to race.
Geza, Hahne's BMW was strictly spoken not an F2 since it had a 2000 cc engine, in those days F2 was 1600 cc. He used the apfelbeck 2-litre engine of the BMW record car.

#12 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 11:14

Originally posted by Geza Sury

That answers my question. But as this car wasn't quick enough to get into the race, the last time a car raced with a smaller engine was in 1968. I scrolled through the entry lists of that year and found that Hubert Hahne had entered the 1968 German GP with a 2.0 BMW engine powered Lola, which was an F2 car. It may be the last time last time in a world championship event that a car run with a smaller engine than the rules allowed.


Er Geza - check the 1969 Canadian GP. John Cordts' Brabham BT23B and Al Pease's Eagle both ran with 2.7 litre Climax engines. :) Cordts had raced the same car in 1967 and posted a DNS in it in 1968.

#13 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 12:27

Originally posted by Geza Sury
....It may be the last time last time in a world championship event that a car run with a smaller engine than the rules allowed.


If there was a lower limit to the 3-litre formula, I should surely have known it... I knew there was a lower limit of 1300cc for the 1500cc F1.

So what was the lower limit? And how did that affect some of the others mentioned here, the 1.5 V8 Climax for instance?

#14 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 12:48

I don't think there was a lower limit and I also found this, which tends to confirm it (at least down to 1600cc). This is a CSI decision dated December 17th 1969, perhaps prompted by complaints that F2 cars had finished in points-scoring positions in the 1969 German GP but had been denied the points as they were technically in a different race. Ironically, no F2 car ever took advantage of this decision, probably because of the third paragraph ....

In compliance with the mandate conferred by the CSI, the Bureau has decided that the organizers of events counting for the World Championship may admit Formula 2 cars if the number of F1 cars available is not sufficient.

Formula 2 cars (without any weight handicap) and their drivers will validly compete for the FIA World Championship.

However, the entering of Formula 2 cars by the organizers is allowed only if the entrants responsible for those cars share in the financial provisions on the same basis as the F1 competitors.


Note the change from 1968 when Beltoise had to run his Matra ballasted to make the F1 minimum weight.

#15 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 13:00

Found the "Formula No. 1" as the regs call it ...

Engines with reciprocating pistons:
a) engine cylinder-capacity without supercharging: inferior or equal to 3000cc;
b) engine cylinder-capacity with supercharging: inferior or equal to 1500cc;
Number of cylinders: max 12

That's from the 1972 regs - IIRC engines with more then 12 cylinders were banned from 1971.

#16 Geza Sury

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 13:01

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Er Geza - check the 1969 Canadian GP. John Cordts' Brabham BT23B and Al Pease's Eagle both ran with 2.7 litre Climax engines. :) Cordts had raced the same car in 1967 and posted a DNS in it in 1968.

I checked Forix and it says both Cordts and Pease ran the 2.8 litre version of the Climax engine. So was it 2.7 or 2.8?

#17 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 13:12

The increased-capacity Climax is sometimes quoted as 2.75 litres. Not sure whether they increased the bore or stroke to achieve this, but I have a feeling the actual capacity was 2749cc. So it's all down to rounding up or down, but that's the first time I've seen them quoted as 2.8 litres - I'm pretty sure the figure was just under the half-litre, so it should be rounded down.

#18 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 13:14

Don't have the exact capacity, but I presume it was between 2.7 and 2.8L.

The bored-out 1.5 BRM V8 is also variously refered to as a 2.0L and 1.9L.
The 1.9L is closer to the truth as it was somewhere in the 1920 cc region.

#19 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 14:03

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The increased-capacity Climax is sometimes quoted as 2.75 litres. Not sure whether they increased the bore or stroke to achieve this, but I have a feeling the actual capacity was 2749cc. So it's all down to rounding up or down, but that's the first time I've seen them quoted as 2.8 litres - I'm pretty sure the figure was just under the half-litre, so it should be rounded down.


The commonly quoted size is 2752cc. I think the engines Gurney had may have been slightly different, but I'm not at all sure about that. It would only take half a millimetre of extra stroke to make it a bigger engine, after all, so anything's possible... but I do have a feeling that I read somewhere that his Climax was specially 'expanded' - as distinct from it being a readymade engine - for its temporary use as ol' Dan awaited the arrival of the Weslake V12.

As for the BRM V8s, there is a very detailed thread about these somewhere on TNF. Maybe a search including Rudd or 2070 will find it. There were two versions used in the Tasman cars, one being in the 1.9-something range for 1966, the other being the 2070 (or was it 2077?) for 1967 and some races in 1968.

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#20 Don Capps

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 14:54

It would seem that V2 & Ray are both correct on the FPF capacity since I recall seeing that there was some variance in the actual capacity of the engines when converted, generally falling a few cc one way or another on the side of 2750cc -- so 2749, 2752 and so forth are in the ball park. However, I rarely remember seeing the displacement listed as "2.8-litres" -- almost without exception they were listed as "2.7" litres. Some of you are far more technically informed and more familiar with the FPF than I am (...plus to say nothing of being just plain smarter...), but I imagine that there was a definite limit to how much the displacement of an FPF could be increased and it must have been in the 2750 range.

#21 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 15:49

Another point, Don, is the number of decimal places you take your calculations to. And the conversion factor you use for pi.

I know that 2752 was always the figure in the Warwick Farm programmes before the 2.5 formula came in...

#22 Frank de Jong

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 19:19

My records (from various sources) say 96 x 95 mm, equals 2751 cc, 2752 cc is a figure mentioned often.

#23 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 04 June 2002 - 21:13

I have often also found out that especially in elder publications that British measurements are converted crudely into metric measurements with a loss of a decimal or even two decimals.

These errors are sufficent to change the total capacity from beeing above or below 2.75L.

And as Ray points out, it also depends on how many decimals are used for pi.

If you calculate the 4-cylinder FPF at 96 x 95 =

3,14 x r2 x h x number of cylinders = 2749.1 cc (with two decimal pi) = 2.7L
3,14159 x r2 x h x number of cylinders = 2750.5 cc (with five decimal pi) = 2.8L


#24 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 05 June 2002 - 04:01

Karl Ludvigsen writes about the Climax engines in his book Gurney's Eagles.

...As a stop-gap, AAR was forced to buy some 2.7-litre, four-cylinder Coventry-Climax engines, slightly enlarged versions of the the British-made 2.5-litre Climaxes...

...Two were bought from Webster Racing Enterprises in California, and one each from Racing Preparations Ltd and the Parnell Team in Britain.... their outputs ranged from 190 to 235 bhp.

... in late July 1966, the Weslake V12 was long overdue... So John Miller rebuilt and further developed the 2.7-litre Climax, bringing its power level to 255 bhp with new pistons forged in the U.S.

#25 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 June 2002 - 04:28

So that was why I read at the time that he had a rather special 2.7 FPF?

Thanks, Milan.

#26 pedro

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Posted 06 June 2002 - 07:19

Have we dismissed Geza's original comment about a '3 ltr Coloni' as a myth or a misprint? All the refs I've seen (including FIA Yearbook) have it as a regular 3.5

And can I turn this thread completely on its head, and ask about engines that have been LARGER than permitted? I remember a story about Centro Sud using 2 and 2.5 ltr engines in 1961, and there must have been more attempts to 'pull a fast one' in those carefree days?

#27 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 June 2002 - 10:01

Pedro: according to a post in this thread:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=23415

Centro-Sud were alleged to have run an ICF engine at Pau in 1961 - there are one or two other instances mentioned, like the "4-litre BRM qualifying engine" (allegedly!)

#28 pc13

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Posted 06 June 2002 - 22:41

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Pedro: according to a post in this thread:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=23415

Centro-Sud were alleged to have run an ICF engine at Pau in 1961 - there are one or two other instances mentioned, like the "4-litre BRM qualifying engine" (allegedly!)


Is that like the impressive qualifying laps from the 70's done with "alleged" 3.3- and 3.9-litre Cosworth DFZ engines?

pc13

#29 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 June 2002 - 22:57

pc13 - I'm sure I and others would like to hear more about that if you know something, but rather than hi-jacking this thread it might be better to revive the old one .... :)

#30 AlesiUK

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Posted 08 June 2002 - 14:58

im fairly sure the original story about coloni was a mistake,the coloni only came to 2 races,a DNQ at monza and Larini only lasted 8 laps in its other outing in spain.

the engine in the car was 3.5ford cosworth DFZ V8,the same engine that tyrell,AGS,Leyton House, abd larrouse used.

most of the grid in 87 of course used 1.5l turbo engines.

On the subject of bigger engines,throughout the late eighties and early ninties there were "allegations" that ferrari always used considerably larger than legal engines for qualifying at imola and monza.;)

#31 pc13

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Posted 08 June 2002 - 23:05

Originally posted by Vitesse2
pc13 - I'm sure I and others would like to hear more about that if you know something, but rather than hi-jacking this thread it might be better to revive the old one .... :)


Okey-dokey. Discussion about bigger engines than permited resumes at http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=23415.

pc13

#32 p de vos

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Posted 11 June 2002 - 08:44

In the 1967 South African GP at Kyalami, the Rhodesian (since having become Zimbabwe) John Love drove his Cooper with a 2.7 litre Tasman Climax engine to second place. He even led for a time towards the end of the race, but had to pit for fuel when a fuel pump failed to pump fuel from an auxillary tank. Dan Gurney's Eagle used a similar engine and these two gentlemen in fact had a great tussle during the race.

#33 Geza Sury

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Posted 12 June 2002 - 06:22

Originally posted by p de vos
In the 1967 South African GP at Kyalami, the Rhodesian (since having become Zimbabwe) John Love drove his Cooper with a 2.7 litre Tasman Climax engine to second place. He even led for a time towards the end of the race, but had to pit for fuel when a fuel pump failed to pump fuel from an auxillary tank. Dan Gurney's Eagle used a similar engine and these two gentlemen in fact had a great tussle during the race.

This makes Love's second place even more special. This would have been the last time when a driver won a race with a smaller engine than the rules had allowed.

#34 Geza Sury

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 17:06

While searching for some info for the Kojima thread I ran accross an interesting sentence in David Hoges' 'A-Z Formula Racing Cars'. This is what's written about Ivan Capelli's March 871 form 1987:

So acute was the problem with engine supply that on occasion Capelli was forced to use a 3.3-litre Cosworth DFL sports-car engine.

When did Capelli use this engine? I checked Forix, and Capelli's March is always listed with a 'normal' 3.5-litre DFZ. Perhaps in testing?

#35 damamaho

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 17:22

Hi Geza,
In Alan Henry's book : MARCH THE GRAND PRIX AND INDY CARS he says about the 3.3 liter engine that it was a Cosworth DFl sports-car engine. They used it during practice for the San Marino GP, because March couldn't get their hands on sufficient DFZ's.
DAMAMAHO.
www.asag.sk/danny.htm

#36 Geza Sury

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 17:37

Originally posted by damamaho
In Alan Henry's book : MARCH THE GRAND PRIX AND INDY CARS he says about the 3.3 liter engine that it was a Cosworth DFl sports-car engine. They used it during practice for the San Marino GP, because March couldn't get their hands on sufficient DFZ's.
DAMAMAHO.

In less than quarter of an hour... Thanks a lot Damamaho!