Jump to content


Photo

A 1963 de Tomaso 801 being restored


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,538 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 04 June 2002 - 20:25

News reaches me from the former colonies that a certain John Mecom in Indianapolis has purchased the Massimino-designed flat eight de Tomaso F1 car (F1-801). This is the car that first appeared in practice at the 1962 Italian GP and finally raced in the Gran Premio di Roma at Vallelunga on 19 May 1963. It was at the British GP meeting in 1963 but not practiced and I can't find anything more about it after that.

John Bolster writes a couple of paragraphs about it in his Monza report (Autosport 21 Sep 1962 p391) and Jenks gives it a full page in Motor Sport (Oct 1962 p773). Pritchard has a few paragraphs on it but Hodges only a few words. Doug Nye's 45-65 book has a photograph and contributes a few new details.

However, a restoration will require all possible information so does anyone know any other sources on this car - perhaps in the Italian press? And does anyone have any photographs?

Thanks

Allen

Advertisement

#2 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,524 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 04 June 2002 - 22:02

I recall being shown what I presume to have been this car - only one built, surely - in the store at De Tomaso's works. Our guide was Guarino ('Guerrino') Bertocchi.

DCN

#3 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,502 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 04 June 2002 - 22:33

Originally posted by Allen Brown
News reaches me from the former colonies that a certain John Mecom in Indianapolis has purchased the Massimino-designed flat eight de Tomaso F1 car (F1-801). This is the car that first appeared in practice at the 1962 Italian GP and finally raced in the Gran Premio di Roma at Vallelunga on 19 May 1963. It was at the British GP meeting in 1963 but not practiced


Was it at Silverstone?

#4 marhal

marhal
  • Member

  • 129 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 05 June 2002 - 05:16

Hello everybody...............

That car was drove at Vallelunga (5-19-63) by the argentinian driver Nasif Estéfano. According with some stories, that car was made through a contract signed between De Tomaso y Estéfano, but the car was undriveable and Estéfano lost his money. According to Estéfano point of view "that car was a s..................". ):

#5 Gerr

Gerr
  • Member

  • 696 posts
  • Joined: April 00

Posted 05 June 2002 - 06:29

The Mecom purchase is interesting. In 1964 Mecom had three deTomaso cars, a FJ/Holbay, a so called "Formula Senior" with an Alfa 1300 and the cast monocoque car with a 289 Ford. Would he still have them?
There was a 2 litre flat 8 deTomaso sports car built with a central tube chassis, photos in the january '64 SCG.

#6 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,538 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 05 June 2002 - 12:00

Originally posted by Gerr
... In 1964 Mecom had ... the cast monocoque car with a 289 Ford ...

So that car was actually built? I thought it never got off the drawing board.

It is possible that Mecom has had them all this time. I'm tryig to find out.

Allen

#7 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,538 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 06 June 2002 - 08:01

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Was it at Silverstone?

Roger

Yes - according to Motor Sport it was present but they couldn't get it running properly so it didn't practice. Might you have pictures?

Allen

#8 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,502 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 06 June 2002 - 19:29

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Roger

Yes - according to Motor Sport it was present but they couldn't get it running properly so it didn't practice. Might you have pictures?

Allen


Allen,

I can't find that reference. All I can find is "To complete the entry list there was that well known non-starter the 8-cylinder de Tomaso, although the designer builder was in the paddock waiting for the car to arrive, which it failed to do."

#9 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,051 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 07 June 2002 - 14:05

Originally posted by Gerr
.....and the cast monocoque car with a 289 Ford.


My recollection is that the F1 (an F1?) car has a cast monocoque chassis...

So is this that car re-engined, a different car or what?

#10 Rainer Nyberg

Rainer Nyberg
  • Member

  • 1,768 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 07 June 2002 - 15:20

Almost a thumbnail, but at least something to start with, found on the net :

Posted Image

#11 Rainer Nyberg

Rainer Nyberg
  • Member

  • 1,768 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 07 June 2002 - 15:24

A 1959 Formula 2 car found on the De Tomaso official website :

Posted Image

#12 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,538 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 07 June 2002 - 20:18

Well found, Rainer!

The site also says (and this is their English, not a Babelfish translation) :


THE FIRST VICTORIES 1959-1968
1959. The network . Without any doubt, Modena was the right place for a .S.C.A. . After three years of good results, Alejandro became .S.C.A., even though in the meanwhile he was planning . Looking back at the . Even if he had started to build his own cars, 1960's. Indeed, De .S. was when he entered a .S.C.A. 750 cc in the 1959 Sebring 12-Hour race. Then, he purchased a (originally conceived for a Formula 2 car) from John Cooper, a 4 .S.C.A. and a gearbox from Colotti, in order to give.

In those period Formula Junior became very popular, and since 1960 De Tomaso was attracted by it like many other carmakers, such as De Sanctis, Stanguellini, Moretti, BMB, Lotus, Cooper and Elva. A Fiat 1100 cc engine and a VW gearbox were fitted to Cooper chassis in a hurry, however the car had serious troubles owing to its brakes.

For that reason Mr. De Tomaso decided to sell it to a fan from Florida, who in his turn sold the car to Chuck Moranto. As usual, Alejandro was going to increase the prestige of his firm.

The "Isis"(whose name is due to that of Mr. De Tomaso's wife) was equipped with a VW gearbox and a Fiat 1100 engine reaching a 240 km/h max speed. In 1960 a Formula Junior was manufactured with a Citroen gearbox and the following year a DKW engine was fitted to a Formula 2 chassis.

Tested by Von Trips, the latter was sent to America. In 1961, De Tomaso built six Grand Prix powered by a 1500 cc max displacement, two with O.S.C.A. engines for Count Volpi's Scuderia Serenissima, and two more for Scuderia Settecolli of Rome.

He also manufactured two others for the Serenissima team, which had Alfa engines. So De Tomaso cars made theid debut at Naples, where Businello finished fifth, while Alberti retired. Besides, these six vehicles appeared on the grid at German GP, Monaco GP and at the Formula 1 Modena GP. The final race of the year, that took place in Rome in 1961, was the National Coppa Italia F1 race, where Businello and Lippi finished fourth and fifth respectively. This was really a successful result.

De Tomaso 1962 Formula 1 car mounted a De Tomaso gearbox, while at Naples and Mediterranean GP vehicles were equipped with 1500 O.S.C.A. engines, that had been fitted by Cornero. One of the two cars which took part in Italian GP was powered by F1-801, a horizontally opposed 8-cylinder De Tomaso engine. The following year a horizontally opposed 4-cylinder engine was built, and a very ambitious plan, an Indy car, was carried out. With its magnesium central body, it had a 4.2 liter-V8 Ford engine and a De Tomaso 6-speed transmission. 6 Indy cars were sent to America, but only one was purchased by John Mecon jr., who wanted a Fairlane engine mounted. Nowadays we have no information about this automobile any longer.

In 1964 De Tomaso was ordered a 1000 cc extremely compact Formula 2 engine, called De Tomaso Holbay, which in its last versions produced 112 hp. Nevertheless, the same year Formula Junior disappeared and was replaced by Formula 2 and Formula 3. This last new class was taken by Mario Casoni to victory at Caserta for the first time, however Monza was fast becoming De Tomaso's "lucky" track. 1964 was also the year of the prototype Sport 2000, characterized by the favourite "spine chassis" tubular frame, connected to the 1500 cc De Tomaso engine, and a 6-speed transmission.

A new Formula 3 equipped with a 1000 cc Ford engine and a particular chassis all around the driver was manufactured in 1965. The following year the Sport 5000 had a CAN-AM 8-cylinder De Tomaso engine, and the prototype Monoposto 5000 chassis was rolled out at Turin Motor Show. Sport 1000 - BRM engine and 5-speed transmission - was shown in 1967, while a new Formula 2 was produced with a 1600 cc Cosworth engine and Hewland gearbox.


So the cast monocoque car was the Indy car?

Allen

#13 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,502 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 07 June 2002 - 23:28

The following appeared in Motor Racing March 1963

During the past few years, de tomaso has tried various foundaries, their techniques and materials. Despite this, finding the right people for this single seater wasn't easy, because the monocoque is made of alloy castings. (you can imagine the size of some of the wood castings patterns!)

This car is designed to tke his own flat-eight or, for free-formula racing the V8 ford Fairlane racing. The first car will be Ford powered iand is destined for a Texan driver, john Mecom Jnr.



and this, in October hte same year:

Alessandro de Tomaso recently completed his first cast monocoque, this being powered by a ford V8 and commissioned by Texan John Mecom Jnr, as a possible Indy competitor next year.

Whether it works or not, this out monocoques them all! The chassis is a one piece casting. De tomaso, who accompanied the car to the US says that there was a group of Chrysler engineers 'on hand' at New york's Idlewild Airport to inspect the car. THey were more than surprised, after a minute search for joints, bolts or rivert to discover that this cast bath tub was one piece, and not jointed sections!

After much experimenting with materials, processes and various foundaries, de tomaso made an agreement with Campagnolo (ex Amadori0 of Bologna, an outfit which specialises in cast wheels and disc brakes among other things. (The parent company is Itly's foremost manufacturer of 'Durailleur' bicycle gears among other things). The essence of the agreement was "you do it as I want it done, and I'll take the responsibility. THe result is an extremely clean and workmanlike job, in spite of its size. The car employs the basic rocker-arm and inboard coil and damper suspension of the de Tomaso F1 and FJ cars. At the rear the suspension is mounted on the the de Tomaso gearbox/differential which was made specially for this car. This in turn is mounted on a multi-tubular aircraft-style sub-frame, aft of the cast chassis "fire wall".

In Indianapolis form, that is, with either an American V8 or the Offenhauser (which, according to de Tomaso, the car will accommodate, the gearbox will have three speeds. For Formula 1, with the flat-eight de Tomaso engine, the same casting will house six speeds.

THe tracks, front and rear respectively, 52 1/2 inches and 54 inches. The weight of thecar, maximum with ford V8, oil and water, is 496 kg.

Wherther he followsit up or not (he's wont to go off on tangents! de Tomaso has produced a daring and imaginative design. In spite of the chassis being one big casting he says that detail changes, if necessary, will be possible.

The sports car with the 300 mm backbone tube chassis is still under construction, with plans for making it the basis of a GT caras well. Also under discussion is a Formula 1 V12 engine.

Micky Thompson was in Modena recently, where he had lengthy talks with de Tomaso and said that much of their basic thinking had a lotin common. THere may in the future be some liaison work between these two, particularly in castings, on would imagine.



THe article is accompanied by a photo of the single seater, with bodywork unfortunately, and one of de tomaso, Thompson and Masten Gregory, apparantly in deep discussion.

#14 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,524 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 07 June 2002 - 23:33

Soon after, a drawing was published of the backbone chassis De Tomaso sports car, drawn by yr fthfl srvnt, one of the first tasks I was set to do, straight out of school.
DCN

#15 Concreteconrods

Concreteconrods
  • New Member

  • 29 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:32

It was definately at Silverstone in 1963.

On the Friday practise day I was in the paddock and I noticed a single seater under a tarpaulin. Being curious I lifted the cover to see the 8 cylinder engine. The car didn't run and no one was attending to it.

Sadly I don't have a picture to prove my claim.