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Something truly exotic...


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#1 Doug Nye

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 19:42

As usual - unearthed while searching desperately for something important - I thought you might like to have a look at something truly exotic, and very seldom seen by the public.

Comfy chair...

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Lengthy after-train...

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Enormous transmission castings...

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...all we need now is an aero engine...

Pix by The GP Library

DCN

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#2 Leif Snellman

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 19:56

Mercedes-Benz Type 80 !!! :clap:

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#3 Gary C

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 20:14

where were your pictures taken Doug? They look as if they come from some military museum's storeroom!

#4 dbw

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 21:20

nice brake drums!!!! :clap:

#5 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 21:34

I thought the car was in the Mercedes Benz Museum. Is it not on general display then? Or is it shown without its guts?

And I'm surprised no-one has commented yet on the fact that it was a six-wheeler!

Anyone know where they planned to run this? Surely they wouldn't have tried an LSR run on an Autobahn?

#6 dbw

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 05:53

as i recall,dr.porsche had his hand in this....i can see the trailing arms on the rear rear swing axles[and the LEADING arms on the front rear pair...also the shockers but what is the suspension means?? also i can't see all the front end but why do i suspect trailing arms up there as well...i'm truly amazed that it hasn't been "resurrected" as per the deutches museum's AU...there must be an inverted V-12 laying about somewhere...[BTW isn't there a matching backup car in uzbeckistan discovered and ready to be shipped ,disassembled, to the west in manure sacks???]  ;)

[upon closer inspection perhaps longitudinal torsion bars on each side??]....wow! i wonder how it feels to have one rear end toe in and the other toe out at the same time....i guess we'll never know.

#7 Mark Beckman

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 12:03

Unbeleivable :love:

#8 Mark Beckman

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 12:19

Yup looks like rear control arms would operate short links to what looks like longitudal torsion bars and would definately get some odd toe angles fighting each other.

At least the front would get some bump toe-in with that steering linkage setup.

Upper front torsion bars look mostly unsupported and even with outrigger support (that it would obviously have) would still allow the top arm pivot to move around a bit, would have been a brave soul to drive this machine !

#9 dretceterini

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 14:32

Just where were those photos taken, and when?...or is was there a second T80...or is one being recreated?? :eek:

Stu

#10 Doug Nye

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 15:11

Would I mislead anybody???? Trust me ... for it is she... unique...

DCN

#11 dmj

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 15:47

If I remember some Mercedes museum pics correctly, there is only body of that car actually exposed to public view, hanging on the wall... So mechanical remains must be stored somewhere behind in closed part of museum?

#12 Doug Nye

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 22:39

Some miles away in a completely anonymous warehouse amongst all kinds of wonderfully mouth-watering untouched, original, unspoiled treasure - plus a mass of deadly dull grey porridge too...

DCN

#13 dmj

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Posted 03 July 2002 - 13:55

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Some miles away in a completely anonymous warehouse amongst all kinds of wonderfully mouth-watering untouched, original, unspoiled treasure - plus a mass of deadly dull grey porridge too...

DCN

Including Uhlenhaut's 300 SLR coupe, I presume...

#14 dretceterini

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Posted 03 July 2002 - 15:27

Ok, you are killing me...what is the address?? :p

Stu

#15 AyePirate

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Posted 04 July 2002 - 00:31

Is this the skin of the type 80 ?

Does anyone have access to a photo from during its operational lifetime?

#16 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 July 2002 - 00:57

Originally posted by AyePirate
Does anyone have access to a photo from during its operational lifetime?


Under wraps with Laurence Pomeroy:

http://latphoto.co.uk/*2PV_003778

This picture and others illustrated descriptions of the car by Pomeroy in The Motor in 1945.

#17 Michael Müller

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Posted 04 July 2002 - 07:07

There was no "operational lifetime" of the T80, at outbreak of war it was nearly finished but not fully operative. Karl's Mercedes bible has some very nice photos made during construction, which confirm that Doug's pictures in fact show the T80. Mercedes still has the bodywork, and also a DB603 or at least DB601 aircraft engine, so to reunite these bits and pieces whould be something like Christmas and Easter falling on one day ...! No replica, but a genuine and original car! Would need a very hard soul to find out whether the theoretically calculated speed is achieved in practive.

#18 AyePirate

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Posted 04 July 2002 - 18:03

Originally posted by Michael Müller
Would need a very hard soul to find out whether the theoretically calculated speed is achieved in practice.


The seat placement looks a bit on the scary side. Anyone with big enough b***s to drive the
thing wouldn't fit. :lol: Maybe if we could find a few usable strands of Nuvolari's DNA......

#19 Michael Müller

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Posted 04 July 2002 - 18:37

Not correct, the T80 was build for Hans Stuck, who was more than 1.90 long, or in other terms 6ft 4in.

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#20 uechtel

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Posted 13 October 2002 - 15:46

Does anyone have access to a photo from during its operational lifetime?



digging up my archive today I found this one:

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and two other pictures of the stripped chassis:

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#21 ray b

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Posted 13 October 2002 - 18:10

Are the side "wings" for down force???
is this the FIRST USE of down force wings???

#22 Brun

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Posted 13 October 2002 - 18:50

I hadn't noticed this thread before. What an absolute beautiful, weird, intriguing car... tell me quick: how much is it and does it come with MOT? :D

Can anyone give a little more info on this car, a website perhaps?

#23 uechtel

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Posted 13 October 2002 - 21:06

The text in the book (Mercedes Silberpfeile by Halwart Schrader, a nice little book with plenty of amazing pictures) tells, that the engine was a DB 603 V12 airplane engine of 45.000 cc (!) capacity and 2850 hp, fuel injected and running on pure alcohol (question to the airplane experts: Wasn´t that used in the Messerschmidt Me 209 speed record breaker, too?). Overall length: more than 8m.

The text tells, that the original concept of this car came from Professor Porsche and that the government had to put some kind of pressure upon Mercedes to realize it as Auto Union were not producing airplane engines at all. And Hitler himself had chosen Hans Stuck to be the driver at the next speed week in autumn 1940...

It was intended to set the record at the high-speed part of the Dessau Autobahn, which sounds very optimistic to me, because the mark already lay at 600 km/h and that track turned out to be even nearly too short for the post-war record attempts of the EMW in 1954, which was only powered by a tiny 1500 cc engine. So Caracciola´s 399.56 km/h, set on 9.2.1939 over the 1 mile distance with a new 3 litre car, were certainly already driven above the limits of the track.

#24 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 October 2002 - 21:09

Some time in the sixties there was a full article about this car in an Australian magazine... probably a Kenmure mag, either Sports Car World or (more likely?) Wheels...

Details? I don't remember a lot, but it had traction control...

And yes, Vitesse, it was planned to take the LSR on an Autobahn, which Adolf arranged to build for that purpose IIRC.

#25 uechtel

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Posted 13 October 2002 - 21:13

Are the side "wings" for down force???



Originally posted by Leif Snellman
Mercedes-Benz Type 80 !!! :clap:

Posted Image


Looking at Leif´s drawing it seems indeed, that those "wings" are mounted angled enough that one could suspect this idea behind them, certainly at 600 km/h...

#26 WGD706

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Posted 13 October 2002 - 21:23

"Wasn´t that used in the Messerschmidt Me 209 speed record breaker, too?"
Messerschmidt really wanted the Daimler Benz 600 engine for his Bf109.
Ernst Udet had flown a DB 600a-powered prototype at a flying meet in July, 1937, in an attempt to make a new speed record, but ended up crash-landing the aircraft. The DB 600a, which was rated at 900 HP take-off power, was followed by the improved DB 601, with 1,175 HP take-off power. A Bf 109C variant powered by the DB 601 set a world speed record of 610.5 KPH (379.38 MPH) in November, 1937.
The DB 601 was expected to be the proper powerplant for the Bf 109. Not only was it very powerful, but it was fuel-injected and could operate effectively in negative-gee manouevers, where a carbureted engine would stall. However, there were problems: working out the bugs in the new engine was proving troublesome, Daimler-Benz couldn't make it in the needed quantity, and priority for the engine was given to the Heinkel 111 bomber. This led to the production of an interim aircraft, the Bf 109D, using the Jumo 210D and 210G powerplants that were available.
The Fw 190 V13 had a Daimler-Benz DB603 inverted-Vee, rated at 1,750 hp for take-off and 1,850 hp at 6,890 ft with a standard supercharger. There were many variants of each engine, resulting in higher hp figures, etc.

#27 Brun

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Posted 14 October 2002 - 08:11

It was intended to set the record at the high-speed part of the Dessau Autobahn, which sounds very optimistic to me, because the mark already lay at 600 km/h and that track turned out to be even nearly too short for the post-war record attempts of the EMW in 1954, which was only powered by a tiny 1500 cc engine. So Caracciola´s 399.56 km/h, set on 9.2.1939 over the 1 mile distance with a new 3 litre car, were certainly already driven above the limits of the track.


Well, the autobahn near Dessau is straight and flat for quite a few miles and it's in a dense forest, shielding cars from the wind. I spotted this as I drove to Berlin last spring (coming in on the Avus :) ) and I managed to set my own personal record there, on 204 km/h :blush:

Anyway, it looks like a perfect place for record-breaking, identical in terrain and conditions to the Frankfurt-Darmstadt autobahn.

#28 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 14 October 2002 - 08:29

Originally posted by Brun
.....Anyway, it looks like a perfect place for record-breaking, identical in terrain and conditions to the Frankfurt-Darmstadt autobahn.

But muuuuch wider. :cool:

#29 dmj

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Posted 14 October 2002 - 10:00

Originally posted by uechtel
The text tells, that the original concept of this car came from Professor Porsche and that the government had to put some kind of pressure upon Mercedes to realize it as Auto Union were not producing airplane engines at all. And Hitler himself had chosen Hans Stuck to be the driver at the next speed week in autumn 1940...

Thanks for pointing it. I was about to ask how it came that Stuck was intended to drive a Mercedes. Now, it would be a sensational transfer! He was much greater name than Kautz or Fagioli...

#30 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 October 2002 - 10:25

Stuck had known Hitler on and off since 1925 - they had met via Hitler's chauffeur, Julius Schreck, who was a friend of Stuck's - and Adolf apparently had fond memories of a day's hunting that day on Stuck's farm. According to Nixon, at Schreck's urging, Stuck met Hitler again in 1931, when he had no German car to drive. Hitler was sympathetic, but unable to help at that time. However, he promised Hans that he would help in the future if the party came to power and if he could avoid driving non-German cars in the meantime: the result of this promise was a phone call from the new Chancellor early in 1933, to arrange a meeting with Stuck and Porsche in order to discuss a new German GP car - the Porsche P-Wagen, later known as the prototype Auto Union.

So Stuck was not such a strange choice to drive the Mercedes Benz record breaker - he was one of Adolf's favourites. Presumably Hitler also provided him with some protection from the anti-Jewish propaganda which surrounded Paula at one time.

#31 Brun

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Posted 14 October 2002 - 13:41

And this is where it would run: the autobahn at Dessau. Picture is from 1937.
Posted Image

#32 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 14 October 2002 - 14:21

Originally posted by uechtel
The text in the book (Mercedes Silberpfeile by Halwart Schrader, a nice little book with plenty of amazing pictures) tells, that the engine was a DB 603 V12 airplane engine of 45.000 cc (!) capacity and 2850 hp, fuel injected and running on pure alcohol (question to the airplane experts: Wasn´t that used in the Messerschmidt Me 209 speed record breaker, too?). Overall length: more than 8m.


I'm wondering about the engine being the DB 603. As far as I know, the 603 was not airworthy before end 1941, if not 1942. A quick look around didn't show me any of the 603-powered aircrafts flying before late 1942. I would expect the DB 601 instead.

Moreover, the 2850 Hp figure could at best be related to a late version, or a tuned up version of the engine. I wonder if, as late as 1941 or even later, anyone in Germany would have spent time for such a project.

The record-breaker Me 209 actually flew with a DB 601 ARJ which was able of 1800 Hp during a very short run, achieving 755 km/h on April, 26th, 1939. Only much later, in 1942, a derivated fighter was designed from the record aircraft, the Me 209 II or Me 209 V5. It was a complete failure, its first flight took place as late as April, 1944. This one was powered by the DB 603.

From : http://frhewww.physi.../109/mdb603.htm

The Daimler Benz DB 603 engine was an enlarged version of the DB 601.

Posted Image

Technical Data:

Type: 12 cylinder inverted-vee
Bore: 162 mm (6.38 in)
Stroke: 180 mm (7.09 in)
Volume: 44.5 l (2715 cu in)
Weight: 920 kg (2030 lb)
Power (A) : 1290 kW (1750 HP) at 2700 rpm
(G) : 1395 kW (1900 HP) at 2700 rpm
(N) : 2060 kW (2800 HP) at 3000 rpm
Continuous (A) : 1190 kw (1620 HP) at 2700 rpm
(G) : 1145 kW (1560 HP) at 2700 rpm
(N) : 1420 kW (1930 HP) at 3000 rpm

Note : A, G and N are different versions.

The Daimler Benz DB 601 engine was an improvement of the DB 600. It was equipped with a fuel injection and a more efficient supercharger.

Posted Image

Technical Data:

Type: 12 cylinder inverted-vee
Bore: 150 mm (5.91 in)
Stroke: 160 mm (6.30 in)
Volume: 33.9 l (2070 cu in)
Weight: 600 kg (1325 lb)
Power (601 Aa) : 865 kW (1175 HP) at 2400 rpm
Continuous(Aa) : 735 kW (1000 HP) at 2400 rpm


#33 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 October 2002 - 11:22

Did I mention that the shortness of the proposed run was the reason for the installation of traction control?

#34 Leif Snellman

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Posted 15 October 2002 - 15:15

The original design target was 550 km/h with a DB 601. When Euston 16 September 1938 made the new record 575.3 km/h / 357.5 mph Porsche had to change the target to 600 km/h and asked Dainler-Benz if they could provide him with a 3000 bhp engine? Daimler-Benz answered that they indeed were experimenting with a new engine , the DB 603 and the third experimental engine of that type was installed in the T80 in 1939. (Source: Ludvigsen)

#35 dbw

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Posted 16 October 2002 - 04:14

i wonder why they made the brakes are so big when you had all those trees on the side of the road.....a quick stop would be quite easy!!;)

#36 Leif Snellman

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Posted 16 October 2002 - 05:23

Originally posted by dbw
i wonder why they made the brakes are so big

thats in the design target also. 3.7 miles to accelerate, have to be stopped in 1.4 miles.

#37 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 16 October 2002 - 06:51

Brun,
that's how wide the Dessau Autobahn was in 1939, ready for the planned 1940 record attempt.

Posted Image
After 10 km median strip was paved away......
.....Ready for the T80.

#38 Brun

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Posted 16 October 2002 - 09:41

Wow, that's WIDE :eek:
Somehow I had assumed that it was much smaller than that, like most pre-war autobahns.

#39 uechtel

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Posted 16 October 2002 - 21:47

Ought to remember my sources better:

The 1954 EMW record attempt was run over TEN miles (=16.09 km), so that´s the reason why track length was critical: The length of the high-speed track was given with 14 km.

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#40 just me again

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Posted 04 November 2002 - 13:33

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Did I mention that the shortness of the proposed run was the reason for the installation of traction control?


Like Ray Bell i like the feature of traction control, was this the first car with traction control, and was this kind of mechanical traction control ever used in a "real" racingcar??.
As i remember the tractioncontrol worked like this. : There were 2 cables, one from the front wheels and one from the rear wheels there were going to a differential near the injection system, if the car made wheelspin then the cable from the rear would rotate faster than the cable from the front and the "main" aksle in the differential would rotate and turn back the power.

PS : i hope there is not to many mistakes, i am sitting at work a long way from my directionary.

#41 uechtel

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Posted 04 November 2002 - 18:18

Are the side "wings" for down force???



Yes, in Richard von Frankenberg´s "Mein geliebter Sport" (1961) the author states exactly that:

"Seitlich hatte dieser Wagen zwei kleine tragflächenartige Flossen mit negativem Anstellwinkel, damit er dadurch auf den Boden gedrückt wurde"

1961

Ah, and the track width was 28m.

#42 Doug Nye

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Posted 04 November 2002 - 19:06

Originally posted by uechtel
...Ah, and the track width was 28m.


Blimey!!! No wonder the Mercedes-Benz Museum merely display the bodywork...

DCN

#43 uechtel

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Posted 04 November 2002 - 21:33

I meant of course the width of the ROAD track!

English is not always as easy as it seems...

#44 Holger Merten

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Posted 04 November 2002 - 21:47

Originally posted by uechtel


Yes, in Richard von Frankenberg´s "Mein geliebter Sport" (1961) the author states exactly that:

"Seitlich hatte dieser Wagen zwei kleine tragflächenartige Flossen mit negativem Anstellwinkel, damit er dadurch auf den Boden gedrückt wurde"

1961

Ah, and the track width was 28m.


After that discussion between Uechtel and Doug, when I worked for Audi, I used my time also to interview some old cracks, who came with Ludwig Kraus from Mercedes to rescue the Auto Union (west) in 1963.

And one person told me that "tragflächenähnliche Flossen", >those flats (wings) were the big idea in the whole system. The engineer, Mr. Nedvidek, was working for the MB racing departement from 1938 to 1963, and later on for Auto Union/Audi-taken by Kraus to Ingolstadt. It was interesting to listen to him, cause he was also involved in the development of the Audi quattro. He gave me interesting material (fotos), told me the whole story of the seventies at Audi and Ilike that handwritten sript in my documents. And Auto Union used those flats also in the 30s for the Auto Union "hillclimbers".

#45 Jorge Cadete

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Posted 08 November 2002 - 14:52

A long time ago, I read an article about the T 80. The engine was an early prototype of the DB 603, ( 44,5 liters) developed by Dr. Porsche to 2850 HP, and then to 3500 HP with methanol injection. I supose that was for charge cooling, not the fuel. The aim was for 700 Km/h, and Dr. Porsche was well aware of wheels starting to spin at high speed. That was the reason behind the four driving rear wheels. Hans Stuck would be the driver, as you all allready know. I read in an other article, not a long time ago, that this car was the subject of a planed restoration to full working order.
About the engine not beeing flown at that time, it was still underdeveloped for aircraft, and was not favoured, at that time, by the RLM - the german air ministery.
The DB 601 ARJ was the 10 th prototype of the DB 601 engine, tuned for 2300 HP at 3500 rpm, with methanol boost for one minute ( Gunston, Bill, World Encyclopaedia of Aero Engines). The methanol injection was used for charge cooling and to prevent detonation, allowing higher boost pressure and more power.
I would really like to see some development work done to the T 80, and find out what it could do.

Best regards, and sorry for writing too much. I'm new at this.

Jorge Cadete

#46 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 November 2002 - 20:52

Welcome Jorge... and you write all you like...

We're pretty avid readers around here.

Do you, for instance, know anything more about the traction control setup?

#47 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 November 2002 - 21:09

Yes as Ray said, welcome Jorge and such a good answer in a difficult thread. Welcome, and I think Ray and I like to read a lot. Especially if it is interesting. We are here to enjoy the knowledgement of the people. Ray??

#48 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 November 2002 - 21:22

Always, Holger... always...

With more always coming there is always more to enjoy, too. Or to learn, more to the point...

#49 Vrba

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Posted 08 November 2002 - 21:31

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano

Moreover, the 2850 Hp figure could at best be related to a late version, or a tuned up version of the engine. I wonder if, as late as 1941 or even later, anyone in Germany would have spent time for such a project.


Take into account that DB603 intended for Typ 80 could have been tuned to much higher power output than engines intended for aircrafts.
Reliability was a lot less of an issue for record breaking and the designers thought that DB603 could have been boosted up to 3000bhp. However, due to circumstances, it never reached that state of tune.

BTW, it would be nice to know when were Doug's pic taken and also when were the pics in Karl Ludvigsen's "Quicksilver Century" (showing complete car with engine and bodywork) taken. It would give us some clue in what state the car is now....

Hrvoje

#50 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 November 2002 - 22:34

Ray, readers are welcome:
Some data of Earl Cameron from May 1947: Highspeed 750 km/h, not bad for the ultimative LSR?

And an interesting situation that MB caught Porsche to construct that car, while AU thought, they didn't needhim any longer, while Speed record attempts whre so important. The T 80 looks alittke bit like a AU streamliner, and where is the engine? And very bad for Rosemeyer, who counts on the"doctor", also in 1938.