79 replies to this topic

[D. Heimgartner]

Saw this car displayed at BMW's headquarters in Munich. I believe the car was built in 1938... Did it race at the famed Italian race? How many were built? Who drove them? (I tried a little internet search, but couldn't get anything.)

*Oh, I also visited the downtown dealership of Mercedes-Benz, and they happened to be rolling/driving in a Gullwing. My friend asked me whether that car was a road-car or a race car. I told him that it was both... am I correct, or were those cars only driven recreationally?

[Barry Lake]

Was it the BMW 328 with which Huschke von Hanstein won the 1940 Mille Miglia (several laps of a shorter course)?

[Rainer Nyberg]

This car?

[Rainer Nyberg]

This is the 1940 hard top version :

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by D. Heimgartner
*Oh, I also visited the downtown dealership of Mercedes-Benz, and they happened to be rolling/driving in a Gullwing. My friend asked me whether that car was a road-car or a race car. I told him that it was both... am I correct, or were those cars only driven recreationally?

We're in terminology country here! The usual type number for the gullwing Mercedes is 300SL and these were of course raced, although they were built as road cars. The Mercedes racing sports car was the 300SLR - normally an open car, as driven to victory in the Mille Miglia by Moss. However, two 300SLR chassis were completed with gullwing bodies, but were not intended as road cars as such, although I seem to remember reading somewhere that Neubauer used one as personal transport after Mercedes withdrew from racing at the end of 1955.

[dmj]

Richard,
you forgot to mention that early 300 SL was pure racing car, only later to be developed into famous road car. Carrera and Le Mans winning coupes weren't designed SLR. But I believe original question was about "Gullwing" which is common name for road car that was (to complicate further) often succesfully raced...
And maybe I am wrong but I seem to remember that 300 SLR coupe was road car of Uhlenhaut, not of Neubauer?

[Vitesse2]

Yes, it would have been so much simpler if M-B had changed the number when they came up with the road car! The original (racing) gull-wing had an oval grille, but the more common road car had a more rectangular look.

And yes, I think it was Uhlenhaut, now that you mention it!

1954 road car: I had this picture as my wallpaper for a while.

[D. Heimgartner]

Rainer Nyberg, I believe that was the car. But I seem to remember the color to be white, but I'm not sure on that point (I'm partially color blind and it was 4 days ago). Beautiful car, it was!

Now I'm curious, how many of these roadsters were built?

[Vitesse2]

There were at least four different bodystyles for the BMW Mille Miglia, since there are two photos in the Georgano Encyclopaedia - one coupe, one roadster - neither of which matches Rainer's pictures! Both his are later production models I think and in fact the convertible looks like a fairly standard post-War 328.

[Ian McKean]

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
This car?

This one must have frightened Bill Lyons when he was conceiving the XK120!

[uechtel]

BMW 328 Mille Miglia Versions:

1) 1939 standard BMW 328

Three standard 328 took part in 1939, but were outclassed by the Alfa Romeo Coupe on the high-speed Mellaha circuit.

2) 1939 BMW 328 Touring Coupe

After this experience BMW ordered Coupe bodywork for one car at Touring (Milan) to be fitted on a special lighter frame. This car scored a class victory at Le Mans (von Schaumburg-Lippe / Wechner) and the 1940 overall win in the Mille Miglia with von Hanstein / Bäumer.

This is the "hard top version" as Rainer Nyberg calls it on the second picture

3) 1939 BMW 328 Roadster

Besides the Touring Coupe BMW themselves built three new roadsters in 1939 with more streamlined bodywork. Two of them appeared also at Le Mans and all three finished in the 1940 Mille Miglia in 3rd, 5th and 6th position.

One of these cars can be seen on the first picture

4) 1940 BMW 328 Sport-Limousine (Kamm)

A car with enclosed bodywork with characteristic steep short tail according to the design principles of Dr. Kamm. The car showed too much sensitivity towards side-winds and put aside.

5) 1940 BMW 328 Stromform-Limousine

Very similar to the roadsters but with an enclosed cockpit. Compared to the Touring-Coupe it was much heavier. This car was used by Lurani / Cortese in 1940 but retired with carburettor problems.

The car appeared again after the war, owned by "Mr. Veritas" Ernst Loof and driven by Karl Kling at Hockenheim in 1947.

6) 1940 BMW 328 Roadster (Touring)

After the 1940 Mille Miglia BMW ordered three further cars at Touring, intended for the NSKK (probably to be prepared for further races as the war would not last very long any more...). Compared to the previous designs these cars had pontoon bodywork, vertainly very much an inspiration for the post-war Veritas RS.

Source: Reinald Schumann - Motorsport in Deutschland 1945 - 55

[uechtel]

There were at least four different bodystyles for the BMW Mille Miglia, since there are two photos in the Georgano Encyclopaedia - one coupe, one roadster - neither of which matches Rainer's pictures! Both his are later production models I think and in fact the convertible looks like a fairly standard post-War 328.

Vitesse2:

I do not know of any a post-war production of the BMW 328 (if you do not count today´s limousine of course...).

Where should that have been? AFAIK BMW at Munich started production only in 1952 with the 501 / 502 series and the East Germans produced the 321, 326, and the post-war development 340. Their sole sports model was the 327.

[dretceterini]

Just go to Orsini's great book on the Mille Miglia if you want photos of the various bodies..

Stu

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


We're in terminology country here! The usual type number for the gullwing Mercedes is 300SL and these were of course raced, although they were built as road cars. The Mercedes racing sports car was the 300SLR - normally an open car, as driven to victory in the Mille Miglia by Moss. However, two 300SLR chassis were completed with gullwing bodies, but were not intended as road cars as such, although I seem to remember reading somewhere that Neubauer used one as personal transport after Mercedes withdrew from racing at the end of 1955.

In January 1957 Motor Racing ran an extended road test of this machine. THey timed it's maximum speed ar 176.47mph, this was the mean of four runs. They found the car genearally practical in everyday traffic except that they had been asked not to slip the clutch. This made town driving rather difficult and affected standing start acceleration times. The car looked slightly strange as it had a large silencer on the side exhausts. Care had to be taken to allow for the extra width of this contraption. It doesn't seem to have been very effective:

As soon as one switches on there is a whine from theelectric fuel pumps at the rear, but as soon as one touched the starter button there is a shattering noise from the engine which monetarily numbs the senses. It is compouinded by the whine of gears, the clatter of the desmodromic valve gear and the injection pump and a variety of grinding noises from the direction of the clutch housing. Plastic ear plugs are normal wear for both driver and passenger.

The lucky drive was Gordon Wilkins.

[Michael Müller]

The Touring Coupé was the winning car of von Hanstein - Bäumer (# 70).



The “Touring coupé" owned by BMW today is a full replica, the original is owned by an American collector.

As far I know besides the 2 gold-silver Touring cars 2 closed cars had been built by BMW theirself, a white one, driven by Lurani - Cortese (# 73, DNF)



This car in fact is identical with the Loof / Kling car of 1947.



and a black one, which possibly is identical with the Kamm car. Unfortunately I have no photo of this one, but if I remember correct it was a rather ugly 4 door saloon, which makes it more a 326 or 327 with 328 engine.

The lightweight roadsters in 1940 were driven by Brudes - Rose (# 74, 3rd place)



Briem - Richter (# 72, 5th place),

and Wenscher - Scholz (# 71,6th place)



I cannot agree with Richard, the lightweight roadsters look rather different from the standard roadsters, one can be seen here below, Richter at the 1938 Mille Miglia.



Also the car shown on Rainer’s photo is a replica, the original Wenscher-Scholz car is today owned by a collector in Latvia.

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Michael Müller
(...))
This car in fact is identical with the Loof / Kling car of 1947.



(...)

Just to add on this BMW 328 thread I found some interesting sentences about Karl Kling in a book about the motorsport at the Solitude.
"(In 1946)...Kling bought a BMW 328 and wanted to drive at the Karlsruher Autobahnrennen on 29 septmebr 1946, which never took place. The race was cancelled a few hours before the start. But Kling meet Loof, who gave him the 1940 BMW Mille Miglia Coupé for Hockenheim in 1947."

And on another page:
"At the first race in German post war motorsport history on 21 july 1946 at the Schwarzwälder Ruhestein Hermann Lang drove the 1940 BMW Mille Miglia Coupé - the same car was driven by Kling at Hockenheim in 1947."

May it's interesting to know what happend to the works- or NSKK 328 after 1940/41.

[uechtel]

Holger,

the solution is already in the other thread!

There we have found out, that indeed the Mille Miglia winner (Toruing Coupe) was driven by Lang at the Ruhestein in 1946, while Kling´s car at Hockenheim was definitvely the Limousine built by the works (the Lurani/Cortese car), two different cars - quite sure!

And the race at Karlsruhe was indeed cancelled by German office (on race day!), but then American polcie arrived at the scene and the race could be run under their protection (Schumann, Motorsport in Deutschland 1945 - 55)

[Patrick Italiano]

Originally posted by uechtel
BMW 328 Mille Miglia Versions:

1) 1939 standard BMW 328

Three standard 328 took part in 1939, but were outclassed by the Alfa Romeo Coupe on the high-speed Mellaha circuit.

I'm sure you meant "by the Alfa Romeo Spider at the Tobrouk-Tripoli race"



The pic shows the 6C2500SS Touring "Ala spessa" (thick wing) that ran on alcohol and vegetal oil , with an injected engine, at the Mille Miglia 1940 (24th overall, 5th in class). The same car (or its twin, I don't remember) was Sanesi/Boratto's winner at the Mille Miglia ersatz , in Libya, 1939, due to fatal accidents at the real MM 1938 which led Italian fascist govenment to ban road races from then. The Tobrouk-Tripoli was an over 1400 km road race celebrating the new infrastructures built by Italians in their colony

[uechtel]

Sorry for the mismatch, Patrick. I am not very good on Alfa Romeos...

But what a beautiful car! The Touring Coachwork Company certainly knew their business!

[Jimmy Piget]

I squatt this thread in order to ask Uechtel : did you notice the BMW picture in the book on Pilette dynasty ?

[uechtel]

Jimmy,

thank you for the tip. But, alas, my financial resources do not allow me to buy every book that has ever been printed

But the Pilette book is certainly on the list of literature which hopefully someday will find a place in my cupboard.

Is the picture the same as in the book about Chimay, written by Biaumet?

[Pils1989]

Hello Rainer

I think i've seen the 328, which BMW just acquired fore their museum, at the EuroRacing Show 2002.
Here is a picture i've taken of it:



See you,

Toine

PS I've moved my website to:
http://homepage.mac....work/Menu2.html

[Michael Müller]

M-MM328H is a replica of the 1940 Mille Miglia roadster (there is also a 2nd one, registered M-PG328H). What they accquired recently from Jim Proffit is the 1940 MM coupé, of which they only owned a replica too.

[Pils1989]

Hi Michael

Well...thanks for the information, i'm just a bit deceived Does BMW plan to tour it around Europe in meetings?

See you

Toine

[Michael Müller]

No idea, but as they are very active with PR at historic events (after denying for decades that BMW has a history) I expept this. For sure the car can be seen at the Mille Miglia Storica in May.

[Pils1989]

Originally posted by uechtel
Jimmy,

thank you for the tip. But, alas, my financial resources do not allow me to buy every book that has ever been printed

But the Pilette book is certainly on the list of literature which hopefully someday will find a place in my cupboard.

Is the picture the same as in the book about Chimay, written by Biaumet?

Jimmy and uechtel

Here are other pictures of the modified 328:




Sorry for the thread-drift

[dretceterini]

Do you have any idea what the car behind the BMW (race number 32) is?

[Pils1989]

Originally posted by dretceterini
Do you have any idea what the car behind the BMW (race number 32) is?

It's the Grand Prix of Brussels 1949, that car is a Legros Spécial (Bugatti with... a 328 engine!)

[dretceterini]

Thanks very much!

[uechtel]

Toine, Thank you VERY much

Interesting to see the car from the rear, too!

And while the appearance of the car might look a little bit provisional stripping a BMW this way was by no means an unusual way to create a race car in those days, as this collection of related pictures demonstrates:

1 Petre Cristea at Chimay 1939
2 (car in the very rear) Karl Gommann at the Nürburgring 1949
3 another shot of Pilette

Picture 4 is a better shot of the Legros car and 5 shows the cars in action, Legros in front of Orley and your grandfather.

Pictures 3, 4 and 5 are of course from Biaumet´s excellent Chimay book

The Pilette 328 is again to be seen on 6) in the centre of the grid at Luxembourg 1949

And finally 7) and 8) two Veritas pictures that might / should / could be related to Andre, but I still need some confirmation for that.

No 7 (from Classic & Sports Car, Feb. 1989) is said to show "Andre Pilette doing test runs with his Veritas on the motorway" while No 8 is still totally unclear to me. Obviously a different car (radiator inlet, missing headrest), but for some reason (which I can not remember any more : ) I noted Pilette´s name (with a question mark) behind that in my archive. At least looking at the drivers face there seems to be some similarity.

AFAIK Veritas had some quite good connections to Belgium with three or four cars used by Ecurie Belge and Emile Cornet possibly invoved in the transfer of two of the cars to Great Britain. Therefore it would not be too unusual to see a Belgian driver in two or more different cars.

So I would be very grateful if you could put some of this right and perhaps also give a little more background information to that if possible.

[Pils1989]

Hello,
The last picture isn't André. No moustache and no square jaws
About Veritas, I know nothing except from what is written in books. I didn't get to talk about all that with my grand-father and I learn alot from TNF.
About 328s, I've nice shots of the the factory team (?) training somewhere near Antwerp, before WW2.
Thank you:)

Toine

[uechtel]

As you see I am not the best in recognizing faces, so thank you for the response.

Originally posted by Pils1989
Hello,
The last picture isn't André. No moustache and no square jaws
About Veritas, I know nothing except from what is written in books. I didn't get to talk about all that with my grand-father and I learn alot from TNF.
About 328s, I've nice shots of the the factory team (?) training somewhere near Antwerp, before WW2.
Thank you:)

Toine

In 1938 the NSKK set up their own racing team, that was based at Munich and closely worked together with the factory. Also they often invited freelance drivers into the team so it is sometimes hard to sort out what were wors entries, what were private and what by the NSKK. For example at the Mille Miglia 1940 the two coupes were original works entries while the three roadsters formed the NSKK team, that competed for the team trophy.

Antwerp rings a bell as there had been a race in 1938 (May 22nd) with three cars enterd by the NSKK (technically supported by BMW employee Ernst Loof). This was the first appearance of the team and drivers were Heinemann and Briem with Roese in a private car. The result was a 1-2-3 in the 2l class (Roese - Heinemann - Briem). In that race the NSKK cars could be recognized by the Nazi flag on the bonnet, while Roese´s car was plain white.

So perhaps the training pictures you mention were shot in advance to that event?

Later the NSKK cars occasionally had the eagle holding the Swastika painted on its side doors, but interestingly neither at Le Mans in 1939 nor at the 1940 Mille Miglia.

[Pils1989]

uechtel,

Thank you for the information about NSKK and their 328s. I have to bring back the photo-albums from my former office and I'll have a look and scan those 328s, soon.
Here some other recent scans of the Veritas and the stripped 328:
- Spa Hillclimb, 1949:


- Grand Prix of Luxembourg, 1949:


- The "kilometre lancé" of Wolverten, 1949. 328 borrowed from Wolem (not sure about the spelling) :



Thanks again,

Toine

[Holger Merten]

This would be realy interesting for Uechtel.

[uechtel]

This is really interesting for uechtel!

Great pictures. I´ll check them up with my archive when I get home this evening.

About the Veritas picture: Unfortunately I can not spot out the number plate. Can you give the letter/digit combination?

Also the number plate of the (dark) BMW ahead of Pilette in the Lucembourg picture. Certainly long for a "native" number. Belgian numbers seem to be dark letters on bright plate, so is this French?

[Pils1989]

- Veritas licence plate : 23106

- Dark 328, # 2, licence plate : 7693RQ

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Pils1989
-

Dark 328, # 2, licence plate : 7693RQ

Attention Uechtel, we had this car allready. And I saw it in my research of the Automobil Revue looking for the Veritas 1946 -Zürich question. Do you remember.

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Pils1989
-

Dark 328, # 2, licence plate : 7693RQ

Attention Uechtel, we had this car allready. And I saw it in my research of the Automobil Revue looking for the Veritas-1946-Zürich question. Do you remember?

[uechtel]

Toine, thank you again. This helps a lot as it is very difficult to get these cars sorted out.

Originally posted by Holger Merten


Attention Uechtel, we had this car allready. And I saw it in my research of the Automobil Revue looking for the Veritas-1946-Zürich question. Do you remember?

Sorry, no, without my archive at I stand a little bit on the wire (english for runaways, you know).

When I understand it right this is a French plate (and not the Sommer car) so I don´t see what it should have to do with the Zürich question?!?!?!?

As i said I´m without my records at the moment so not able to say who´s the driver. The only other BMW present at Luxembourg of which I know is the car of Honore Wagner. But he´s from Luxembourg so this doe not fit to a French plate?

[Holger Merten]

Sorry Uechtel, I checked the others car plate, but it's not the same one.

3903RP is not 7693RQ, but it seems to me that the car in this thread had also another No. behind the RQ, which looks like a 3?

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Pils1989
uechtel,

- The "kilometre lancé" of Wolverten, 1949. 328 borrowed from Wolem (not sure about the spelling) :

Never heard a name like this. Is he Belgian?

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Sorry Uechtel, I checked the others car plate, but it's not the same one.

And the car is dark not white. Perhaps I should send you a map showing the way to your next Fielmann shop...

3903RP is not 7693RQ, but it seems to me that the car in this thread had also another No. behind the RQ, which looks like a 3?

right you are. So no glasses necessary anyway.

As MM stated elsewhere the last number should be indication for the departement in France, but I don´t know for which of them stood the "3"

[Pils1989]

Yes, 7693RQ3... getting old too :-p

Would you like two other Veritas pictures?

[Holger Merten]

uechtel, but I could remember this plate from my reseqarch in the AR a few weeks ago, and this car in the AR was a black car too. So I have something in my mind, and Fielmann has to wait some more years (I hope so). :

[Pils1989]

Originally posted by uechtel


Never heard a name like this. Is he Belgian?

Jacques Woubem or Woulem.. I can't read the hand-writing

[Pils1989]

If french, It would be 03

[Holger Merten]

And if dutch?

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Pils1989
Yes, 7693RQ3... getting old too :-p

Would you like two other Veritas pictures?

yes, pleeeeeaaaaassssseeee!

If french, It would be 03

are you sure? I can´t find an example at the moment, but as I remember I have seen french number plates with one digit at the end only

originally posted by Holger Merten
uechtel, but I could remember this plate from my reseqarch in the AR a few weeks ago, and this car in the AR was a black car too. So I have something in my mind, and Fielmann has to wait some more years (I hope so).

Hm. I can´t really remember having read something about that so far. Perhaps you´ll have to take a second look in the library...

[Pils1989]

For the french licence plate, It was an idea, sorry

- Spa HiilClimb again:


- Written "Veritas" on the back, that's it:

Notice the differences in the pictures: aero-screen missing, mirrors a bit different, different sweaters, and leather-straps missing.

[uechtel]

Yes, certainly not the same car at the same time.


Looking at the picture you posted previously I tend towards regarding the first picture as been taken at Spa in 1949 and the second picture very much as something else.


To the number plate. The following picture shows Sommer in his BMW 328, reportedly at Marseilles in 1946



as you see the letter system is very much the same so surely the dark 328 is a French car. So perhaps the last digit does not refer to the departement indeed.

Alas I am still weak in recognizing faces and do nat have any entry or full result list of the race at Luxembourg so I am unable to say who the driver of the dark car is.


And back to 1938 and the race at Antwerp. This is the picture with the BMW team lined up at the pits. Roese´s car is in front with the NSKK team cars behind that.