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BMW 328 Mille Miglia


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#51 uechtel

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Posted 10 November 2003 - 20:24

Originally posted by Holger Merten
uechtel, but I could remember this plate from my reseqarch in the AR a few weeks ago, and this car in the AR was a black car too. So I have something in my mind, and Fielmann has to wait some more years (I hope so). :


There has been a number of black / dark 328 including the one "sponsored" by the SS...

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#52 diego

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Posted 11 November 2003 - 00:33

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As the proud owner of a M Coupe, I love the family DNA.... also seen in several Veritas

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#53 uechtel

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Posted 11 November 2003 - 22:51

mmmh, with the Veritas it´s a little different.

BMW actually forbade them to call their cars "BMW-Veritas"...

Later when the remains of Loof´s enterprise were taken over by BMW he took up some kind of "internal competition" when he produced an own prototype for the 507. When the BMW directors decided in favour of the design of Graf Goertz he even took his model to an exposition, where it was even awarded a price and the BMW management had something to explain to the public...

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#54 uechtel

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Posted 10 October 2004 - 08:36

To avoid the other thread becoming another "Mille Miglia discussion" I rather try to revive this one.

Here a number of more gems from http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/hias/index2.html, all pictures around the event.

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The journey to Italy. We see the first of the Roadsters (the one that was completed in Germany), the Kamm Limousine and the Touring Roadster, separated by road-going cars of the team.


http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/irc/data/BILDER/IMAGE/408/00039821_M.JPG

Same scene from another angle


[img]http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/irc/data/BILDER/IMAGE/384/00037835_M.JPG

Crossing the Italian border


[img]http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/irc/data/BILDER/IMAGE/408/00039839_M.JPG

Arriving in Italy


[img]http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/irc/data/BILDER/IMAGE/413/00039928_M.JPG[/img]

In the team base camp at Brescia


[img]http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/irc/data/BILDER/IMAGE/384/00037809_M.JPG[/img]

pre-race scrutineering


[img]http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/irc/data/BILDER/IMAGE/384/00037815_M.JPG[/img]

Preparing the cars on race-day


[img]http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/irc/data/BILDER/IMAGE/384/00037811_M.JPG[/img]

mobile fuel supply station


[img]http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/irc/data/BILDER/IMAGE/423/00039595_M.JPG[/img]

Melde gehorsamst: Zum Rennen angetreten! :rolleyes:


[img]http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/irc/data/BILDER/IMAGE/403/00039586_M.JPG[/img]

champagne for the victorious team


[img]http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/irc/data/BILDER/IMAGE/413/00039940_M.JPG[/img]

the journey back to Munich


[img]http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/irc/data/BILDER/IMAGE/384/00037883_M.JPG[/img]

A puncture


[img]http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/irc/data/BILDER/IMAGE/384/00037874_M.JPG[/img]

Crossing the border again


[img]http://www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de/irc/data/BILDER/IMAGE/384/00037887_M.JPG[/img]


The parade drive across Munich


for more look by yourself using the "guest" login - this is really a treasure!

#55 dretceterini

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Posted 10 October 2004 - 18:03

WOW!!

I notice that one of the spiders has lower headlamps than the other two...

#56 uechtel

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Posted 10 October 2004 - 20:33

well spotted!

The first car was completed in Munich and ran an extensive test programme, before it was sent to Italy (accompanied by the Touring Coupe and the Kamm Limousine) on its own wheels.

But BMW had not the resources to complete the bodywork of the other cars in time, as they were still unfamiliar with the comparatively new "Superleggera" technology, so they transferred two chassis to Milan where they received Touring-built bodywork according to the BMW design. Perhaps for manufacturing reasons these two cars are slightly different in detail.

Found this picture for a good comparison:

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The original Munich-built car is that one in the background.

As you noticed the position of the headlights is slightly different. Also note the steeper radiator and the fold along the fenders, for which it got the name "Bügelfaltenroadster".

#57 dretceterini

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Posted 10 October 2004 - 20:35

Thanks for the excellent photo... :clap:

#58 Michael Müller

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Posted 10 October 2004 - 20:37

Well, I would say one has higher ones than the other 2...
Reason is probably that one car has been build in Munich, and the other 2 at Touring in Milan.

Edit:
Okay, after seeing the last pictures I agree, one has lower head lights... :blush:

#59 uechtel

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Posted 10 October 2004 - 22:11

Originally posted by dretceterini
Thanks for the excellent photo... :clap:


Thank BMW!

It´s really great, that they have all this online.

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#60 carrozzeria

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 20:42

This is the first iteration of the Kamm designed 328 Limosine. I'm trying to discover additional pictures of this particular 328 and its unique chassis outside of BMW Tradition. Specifically there are known pictures of it "post crash" while mangled. All help is greatly appreciated in trying to discover these. Thanks!

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#61 coco

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 12:53

Originally posted by carrozzeria
This is the first iteration of the Kamm designed 328 Limosine. I'm trying to discover additional pictures of this particular 328 and its unique chassis outside of BMW Tradition. Specifically there are known pictures of it "post crash" while mangled. All help is greatly appreciated in trying to discover these. Thanks!

Posted Image

As far as I know this car is lost today.

Ciao
Walter

#62 carrozzeria

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 02:38

Above iteration was crashed due to instability problems resulting from crosswinds and a polar moment of inertia design problem. (Aerodynamics weren't fully understood at the time) Next iteration had a longer wheelbase and revised bodywork and thus a bit more stable. If you watch the Touring bodied Coupe even today, it has a tendency at high speed to drift a bit and is sensitive to side winds also.

There ARE pictures of the first iteration (pic above) in "crashed configuration" (and original construction pictures) which are what I'm trying to find. (UK journalist saw them many years ago but lost contact with person who had them) Hopefully they aren't "lost" again. Thanks!

#63 D-Type

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 23:16

I'm reviving this thread rather than open a new one for a query related to the 1938 Mille miglia..

Yesterday I bought an old "Retro Vitese" [their spelling] model of a "BMW 328 Mille Miglia 1938". It is left hand drive, whie, and carries race number 113 and has the registration IIA 52114.

To try and identify the subject, I checked with WSRP and Martin Krejci has this car, chassis 85.032, finishing 8th overall and 1st in class driven by AFP Fane and Bill James. The car is listed as entered by Frazer Nash while the other three 328s, registrations IIA 57782, IIA 52112 and IIA 44983? (chassis 85.002?) are listed as entered by BMW.

Supercars.net says

In 1938 the organisers set out to encourage more foreign, i.e. German, drivers to take part. However, only four drivers responded to the appeal, all entering BMW 328 racers. The NSKK (National Socialist Motoring Corps) registered Prince Max zu Schaumburg-Lippe as its driver and – as a manifestation of the German-Italian friendship – the experienced Mille Miglia campaigner Count Giovanni Lurani as co-driver. BMW sent two works cars to the race, one manned by privateer drivers Uli Richter and Dr Fritz Werneck, the other piloted by Britain’s A.F.P. Fane with William James alongside as his mechanic and navigator.

These three cars made up a team managed by Ernst Loof, head of the BMW racing department, and they were joined by the privately-entered driver/mechanic pairing of Heinrich Graf von der Mühle-Eckart and Theodor Holzschuh, an employee at the BMW sports car repairs department. Also on the start list were a Fiat, a Riley and an Aston Martin.


Conceptcarz.com have this to say:

BMW 328 Roadster
Designer: Wilhelm Mayrhofer
Chassis Num: 85032

High bid of $4,300,000 at 2010 RM Auctions. (did not sell)
BMW was active and successful in sports racing activity before WWII. In the late 1930s, they used their technically advanced, high-performance 328 model. This car, chassis number 85032, was built in May of 1937, and passed to Rudolph Schleicher's experimental Department at BMW. It ran at Le Mans and the Tourist Trophy race in 1937. The following year, it was victorious in the two-liter class at the Mille Miglia, with A.F.P. Fane driving and William James co-driving. The car subsequently won a gold medal in the 'German Aplenfahrt' in both 1938 and 1939. That autumn, the car was dismantled and re-engineered as an open streamliner, destined for use as a factory entry in the 1940 Mille Miglia alongside the two factory fixed-head streamliners. The unique bodywork worn by #85032 was designed by Wilhelm Kaiser of BMW's new design department. It was built at the factory racing department at Milbertshofen, Germany, and nicknamed 'Buegelfalte' or trouser crease, referring to the creased fender tops. The car received an intricate steel tube frame, upgraded brakes, a Hurth-gearbox and a 130 PS engine to compliment the new bodywork. Its finished weight was 725 kgs (1,595 pounds).

The car is significant because it was the only special roadster to be built at the factory in Munich. Two other second series streamlined roadsters were skinned in aluminum by an independent coachbuilder, Touring of Milano.


This appears to be an extact from the RM Auctions site. description which is too long to reproduce here.

Martin Krejci rarely gets things wrong, so was this car loaned to Frazer Nash by BMW just for the Mille Miglia?

Curiously the model has two swastika badges on the nose, which is surprising in a car with two British drivers. Pictures of a more recent model don't have these badges, but that could be due to a ban on depicting swastikas.

Can anybody throw any light on this?

#64 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:02

It was a works car, loaned especially for the race and entered as a Frazer Nash-BMW by BMW - the Supercars.net stuff about NSKK is pure tosh, so ignore it as they've misinterpreted the facts. DSJ, in "From Chain Drive to Turbocharger", says that - unlike the other team cars, which had swastikas on both sides - Fane's car had a swastika on the left and a union flag on the right. However, the different car(s) - one or both of two practice "mules" - which Fane drove in practice had swastikas on both sides. This may be sourced to one of the two articles Fane wrote for The Autocar: one about practice and another about the race - I don't have the full texts to check and it's not mentioned in the extracts in Blight's "French Sports Car Revolution". Jenks does include a picture taken during scrutineering - but of course it only shows the left hand side! :lol:

#65 Roger Clark

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:36

Fane doesn't mention swastikas in either of The Autocar articles. There is a poor quality picture in the race article but it doesn't add anything.

#66 D-Type

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 19:09

Motor Sport refers to Fane driving for the German B.M.W. team and goes on to say:
"Fane had originally intended to drive his own Type 328 car, but eventually he was given Henne's place and car in the official works team"

This suggests that he may have been originally entered by Frazer Nash, but for whatever reason he was loaned a BMW works car and ran as part of the BMW team.

Of course, in 1938 the swastika did not have the unpleasant connotations it has today, it was presumably viewed as no more than the emblem of the ruling party in Germany equivalent to the hammer and sickle symbol of Soviet Russia.

Edited by D-Type, 17 September 2012 - 19:11.


#67 uechtel

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 22:16

There were no strict borders between the "BMW works" , "NSKK" and "Frazer Nash" team entries. Already in 1936 one of the first three 328 prototypes had already the steering wheel on the right. That was of course because of the already very successful cooperation with Frazer Nash. Nevertheless all three cars were entered by the BMW works but also for example at Dundrod by Frazer Nash officially (they were painted green but still with German license plates). This was continued into 1937 where "IIA-52114" appeared for the first time at Le Mans, driven by Fane / Aldington. I do not have many pre-war race programmes, so I can not say whether thsi was under BMW or Frazer Nash entry. Later at Donington it was driven by Hector Dobbs.

The NSKK, which under the Nazi government had become the nation wide automobile and driver organization in Germany, started to set up kind of a "National Team" for sports car races, based at Munich and with support from the BMW factory. De jure they sometimes operated "independently" from the works, but with a lot of swapping among the cars.

For the Mille Miglia 1938 there are quite a lot of photos freely accessable in the BMW historic online archive, for example just enter the words "Fane Mille Miglia 1938" in the following link and then press the "Suchen" button: http://www.historisc...b...?id=158071 so you can yourself examine the swastika on the car.

Later at Donington the car seems to have been again entered by the AFN company for Aldington before the car was tranformed into one of the 1940 Mille Miglia streamliners.





#68 uechtel

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 22:20

DSJ, in "From Chain Drive to Turbocharger", says that - unlike the other team cars, which had swastikas on both sides - Fane's car had a swastika on the left and a union flag on the right.


That´s not fully correct. It is true that Fane´s car had the Swastika and the Union Jack on the bonnet (looking at the photos it may have been that the British Flag had been added later), but we have also the Italian Fascist symbol on Lurani´s car. So I think it was kind of a contribution to the Nationality of the driver.




#69 uechtel

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 22:40

It was a works car, loaned especially for the race and entered as a Frazer Nash-BMW by BMW - the Supercars.net stuff about NSKK is pure tosh, so ignore it as they've misinterpreted the facts.


To their defense I am afraid they are quite right on this. Prince von Schaumburg was the leader of the NSKK racing team and also the links to Lurani, who was also in an official position in Italy, was of course also via the NSKK organization. On the other hand Fane was linked to BMW via the Frazer Nash connection and then BMW was connected to the NSKK team via Munich...

So everything does make quite sense in my opinion. Perhaps it can be compared to the question whether Jarier, Purley and Williamson were team-mates at March in 1973 or not (only with more politics)

#70 Vitesse2

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 23:52

Surely the point is that Schaumburg had to enter with a licence issued by the ACN recognised by the AIACR? In his case it just happened to be the NSKK/ONS. In national level German races - as I understand it, but I'm quite happy to be corrected - you could only enter "under the umbrella" of your local NSKK or another party-approved organisation: SS, Wehrmacht, Reichspost etc and there was thus no such thing as a "private entry".

And I think you may be confusing Lurani with Furmanik? At this time, control of the sport in Italy was being taken from RACI and given to the Fascist-controlled FASI - run by Furmanik. Lurani may have been involved under RACI, but not under FASI: if he had been, he would surely not have been allowed such an important role immediately post-war. The new administration (ASAI) was headed by Brivio, who was also untainted by links with FASI: Varzi, Taruffi, Lurani, Villoresi, Maggi and Balestrero were also involved. Lurani was certainly no fan of Il Duce - I doubt he was impressed to have the fasces on his car.

Oh, and I think you meant Ards rather than Dundrod ;)

#71 uechtel

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 21:18

Surely the point is that Schaumburg had to enter with a licence issued by the ACN recognised by the AIACR? In his case it just happened to be the NSKK/ONS. In national level German races - as I understand it, but I'm quite happy to be corrected - you could only enter "under the umbrella" of your local NSKK or another party-approved organisation: SS, Wehrmacht, Reichspost etc and there was thus no such thing as a "private entry".


You are right on this, but Max zu Schaumburg-Lippe is a different case. He was not only a simple member, but in official function in the NSKK ("Funktionär" in German). German Wikipedia says he was member of the board of the ONS (Highest National Sport Office/Authority/Department) and in Simons´ BMW 328 book he is explicitely named as "Teamchef" (team director) of the NSKK sports car "stable" from 1938 to 1940.

And I think you may be confusing Lurani with Furmanik? At this time, control of the sport in Italy was being taken from RACI and given to the Fascist-controlled FASI - run by Furmanik. Lurani may have been involved under RACI, but not under FASI: if he had been, he would surely not have been allowed such an important role immediately post-war. The new administration (ASAI) was headed by Brivio, who was also untainted by links with FASI: Varzi, Taruffi, Lurani, Villoresi, Maggi and Balestrero were also involved. Lurani was certainly no fan of Il Duce - I doubt he was impressed to have the fasces on his car.


I am not in the depths of Italian organizations nor do I know too much about Lurani´s biography and political orientation. But I wonder why he would have been chosen for the 1940 BMW/NSKK team if he would not have been somehow in good connections to the Italian and German organizations. This seems not indicate, that he had been "opponent" of the regime. But ok, maybe I am wrong, and perhaps he had his connections indeed also via BMW rather than the NSKK.


Oh, and I think you meant Ards rather than Dundrod ;)


Sorry, was a little confused with the Northern Irish geography...


#72 uechtel

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 21:26

Also information from Martin Pfundner, that Schaumburg-Lippe had been representative for Germany in the AIACR´s sporting commission in 1931/32, then as member of the AvD of course.

#73 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 21:55

I am not in the depths of Italian organizations nor do I know too much about Lurani´s biography and political orientation. But I wonder why he would have been chosen for the 1940 BMW/NSKK team if he would not have been somehow in good connections to the Italian and German organizations. This seems not indicate, that he had been "opponent" of the regime. But ok, maybe I am wrong, and perhaps he had his connections indeed also via BMW rather than the NSKK.

I think it's actually the simple answer that (unless you know better ;) ) he also owned a 328, which he ran in Italian national hillclimbs. He'd severed his connections with Alfa after about 1932 and switched to Maserati, but they didn't have a suitable unsupercharged sports car to run in Italian events. As to his politics, he was very pro-British and an honorary member of the BRDC: in the 1940 MM, reports say he wore overalls carrying a BRDC badge. He also apparently hosted a pre-race party - to which no Germans were invited, but the few French and British who were present were.

#74 uechtel

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:08

Ok, so maybe he was even only indirectly connected via Frazer Nash

#75 D-Type

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 19:24

Many thanks for all the information on the 1938 BMW and the link to the photos. My little £8 model now needs a Union Jack decal and a 3rd spotlight (as looking carefully at the model I can see where it's fallen off).

#76 Sharman

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:47

To shift the direction of this thread, which of the works cars ended up with Gillie Tyrer?

#77 David McKinney

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 14:45

85.464

He also of course had two non-ex-works 328s

#78 uechtel

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 19:23

The #74 car of Brudes / Roese.