115 replies to this topic

[Allen Brown]

I am struggling to identify a car used in F5000 in Australia in 1971-72 and I'm hoping my antipodean friends can help.

At Mallala (11 Oct 1971) Don O'Sullivan appears with a "McLaren M18" with a Repco-Holden V8. According to the F1 Register Fact Book, the car was entered by Team Matich so I wonder if this could be Frank Matich's highly modified M10B?

It was then raced at Australian GP (21 Nov 1971) but it failed to appear for any of the Australian Tasman rounds in Gebruary 1972. It was next seen at Surfers Paradise on 27 Aug 1972 (raced by O'Sullivan) then was listed by the F1R at Symmons Plain on 24 Sep (DNA and described as "McLaren M22") and Adelaide on 8 Oct. It was then driven by Howie Sangster for O'Sullivan at Warwick Farm on 5 Nov 1972 but failed to start. It was not entered for any of the 1973 Tasman races and O'Sullivan then bought M22 (M22-1-72) from VDS so this car is not seen again.

It could have been delivered new in October 1971, making it an eighth M18 but I'm not sure about this. It could also be a rebuilt M10 of some description. Can anyone give me any clues? Does anyone have any pictures of it at any of these events?

Thanks

Allen

[David McKinney]

This car has always been a mystery to me, too.
It ]might have been a rebuild of the Matich M10B (c/no SR10) which O'Sullivan had reportedly written off earlier in 1971.
O'Sullivan's later M22 (1/72) was the car built from the S Taylor M18 - which takes your 500-01 history a stage further. This car was raced by Chris Milton (in Australia) 1975-76

[Ray Bell]

What were the reports on him writing it off, David?

[David McKinney]

That'll take a little digging
Do you have any record of him racing it after Teretonga 1971?

[Ray Bell]

Shall I stop looking?

There's a paragraph in the Teretonga report that seems to have some relevance...

From Racing Car News March 1971, page 27
On the first lap Eyerly displaced Geoghegan's Lotus from tenth, while Don O'sullivan had already stopped at the pits with a damaged nose section. this was taped up, but the Australian later crashed into an earth bank after leaving the track at the Hairpin while waving another car through. O'Sullivan was lucky not to be hurt, but the monocoque was damaged beyond repair and the second Rothmans Team Matich M10B will be out for the rest of the series.

Does that help?

[Allen Brown]

Ray, David

Thanks for the information on the M10B. So does that mean it couldn't have been rebuilt with M18 bits?

Originally posted by David McKinney
O'Sullivan's later M22 (1/72) was the car built from the S Taylor M18 - which takes your 500-01 history a stage further. This car was raced by Chris Milton (in Australia) 1975-76

I'm pretty sure that O'Sullivan got the real M22-1, not the Hobbs/Tasman M18/M22/M18B although every owner has thought it was the Hobbs/Tasman car. If you look at the UK race histories, you'll see that VDS sell off the real M22 just about the time O'Sullivan's mechanic was in England buying a M22. I think that subsequently someone has looked up the Tasman records, seen "M22-1" in Hobbs' hands and put two and two together. It is confusing because VDS had the M18/M22/M18B early in 1972 and then had the real M22-1 later that season. But by the time they sold M22-1, the cars had regained their more correct designations. So it is M22-1 that went to Milton and then Alan Newton (sp?) who still has it now.

Allen

[Ray Bell]

Jamie Gard was pretty capable... he could have used the uprights and bits to build a new car round a new tub.

I would assume that's the most logical answer...

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Jamie Gard was pretty capable... he could have used the uprights and bits to build a new car round a new tub.

I would assume that's the most logical answer...

I'd agree with that. Gard was also the man who built the Gardos in early 1974 which was said at the time to be based on a M18. So maybe he rebuilt the old M10B as a M18 and then modified yet further in early 74 calling it a Gardos to reflect the amount of modification. The only part of this theory that doesn't feel right is that the Gardos was built just after they bought the M22. If they had got this new(ish) car, why go to the effort of rebuilding the old M10B/M18 into the Gardos?

Are O'Sullivan or Gard still around?

Allen

[David McKinney]

I'll have to look into this more deeply
My notes (from the time) state quite clearly that O'Sullivan's 'M22' was the car VDS had raced in Europe in the first part of 1972, ie the ex-M10B. It was acquired from VDS when they got their replacement M22-1 (the real one), which they campaigned from the Oulton Park Gold Cup. But your dates might be more accurate than mine

[Allen Brown]

David

I think VDS used both cars early in 1973 but I'll have to go back and check. Gard was in the UK in the summer (our summer, that is - insomuch as we have one) of 1973.

Allen

[Ray Bell]

I'm sure Jamie and Don are still around... I'm trying to remember if it was Jamie who now tests modified cars for torsional rigidity (you know... stretch limos, hearses etc...) for certification of roadworthiness... I don't think it is as I'm not sure why I would have contacted him.

If you really need help with it I think I can muster some contacts.

[Mac Lark]

The Gardos lives!

In fact it's here in New Zealand.

It's been here for about 2 years now - the new owner is about 6'4" and assures me he fits. It has not been raced by him to my knowledge yet.

He tells me there's a lot of M10 under it all and I'm imagining a M23 type body now clothes it.

On the subject of F5000's, has anyone seen a copy of Bernard Cowdrey's A-Z on the subject?

I own a lot of motor racing books. This would easily be the worst motor sport book I've ever seen. By a long, long way. There are mistakes galore and too many 'matey' references for it to be considered a serious historical book.

[mickj]

Yes I have the F5000 book, sure it has a lot of gaps, mistakes etc, at least someone had a go at writing a book on F5000.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, one of the greatest categories that ever existed.

Shame to see it treated with disdain, and the victim of a sloppy work. But there's plenty of posts about F5000 on this forum, anyway. Check threads started by island if you like...

[Allen Brown]

I was recently approached by a publisher asking me to do a book on F5000 but I'm not sure I have the energy. I'm publishing all the information bit-by-bit on my F5000 site anyway so I'm not sure how much a book would really add.

I bought Cowdrey's book on Amazon last week and although I didn't learn much new from it, it is an admirable effort given how hard it is to find F5000 information. It is only since the web era began that I have been able to pull together as much as I have.

Originally posted by Mac Lark
The Gardos lives!

In fact it's here in New Zealand.

It's been here for about 2 years now - the new owner is about 6'4" and assures me he fits. It has not been raced by him to my knowledge yet.

He tells me there's a lot of M10 under it all and I'm imagining a M23 type body now clothes it.
...

Mac

Who has it? Could you put me in touch?

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I'm sure Jamie and Don are still around ... If you really need help with it I think I can muster some contacts.

Ray

Yes please - the Gardos deserves researching properly and those two could definitely solve this M18 mystery.

Many thanks to you all.

Allen

[Mac Lark]

I'll call him today.

Re your comments on Cowdrey's book - really you're too kind. He phoned me when he was researching it and said that he'd give me a credit for my help.

When I saw it and all the mistakes - really elementary mistakes - I was delighted to have my name no where near it.

[Mac Lark]

ok Allen, you can contact Chris on:

info@handyrentals.co.nz

Good luck

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Yes please - the Gardos deserves researching properly and those two could definitely solve this M18 mystery.

And I guess that Cooper mystery could be solved too?

[condor]

Hi, Ray called me earlier to-day to ask me to post on this thread as he's on the road....He's made contact with Jamie Gard....who will be in touch soon

Hope I got the message right

[Ray Bell]

And just to correct an enduring and oft-repeated error...

Jaime Gard does not spell his name 'Jamie'... I had a brief chat with him, I don't know if he will post on this thread or contact Allen by e.mail.

Better yet, Don O'Sullivan is also on the net these days, so we should get to the point of being able to contact him directly on all these mysterious goings on of long ago.

[David McKinney]

So does he pronounce it Jamie or the correct way?

[Allen Brown]

I've had an email from Jaime Gard to say he's going to get together with Don and go through the whole story. I've prompted him that the main mysteries are:

• What happened to the Team Matich McLaren M10B crashed by O'Sullivan at Teretonga in 1971?
• What was the "McLaren M18" first seen at Mallala on 11 Oct 1971? Was it a new factory car, a second-hand car or a rebuild of the Matich McLaren M10B?
• What happened to the McLaren M18 after its last known appearance at Warwick Farm on 5 Nov 1972?
• When was the McLaren M22 bought from VDS - was that 1972 or 1973?
• Was the Gardos built from the McLaren M18?
• Why was the Gardos built if O'Sullivan had just bought a relatively new McLaren M22?
• What became of the Gardos? Who was the next owner?
• What became of the McLaren M22? Who was the next owner?
• And, just to close down another mystery, what happened to the ex-Stillwell Cooper 'lowline' owned by O'Sullivan in 1965/66?

Have I missed anything?

Allen

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Mac Lark
... Re your comments on Cowdrey's book - really you're too kind...

Mac

I read more of it last night and you're right, I was too kind. Some of the entries, notably that for the WRE but there are others, show that he knew nothing at all about those cars. And some of the mistakes are quite stunning. But at least it's a book on F5000 and there aren't many of those!

Allen

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Have I missed anything?

•The other two (or was it three?) low-line Coopers O'Sullivan raced, including the T58 and T70

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
So does he pronounce it Jamie or the correct way?

It is pronounced the same.

By the way, I confirmed with him that he is indeed certifying the engineering on road cars with altered chassis work. The main part of this, I understand, is checking the torsional rigidity of stretch limos, hearses and cars converted from sedans to open tops.

Allen...

Is there any point in also checking out what happened to the Lola T70 and other cars that Don O'Sullivan owned...

And just for laughs, what he thinks about the WASCC giving Don the outright lap record at Caversham on the day of its closure?

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by David McKinney

•The other two (or was it three?) low-line Coopers O'Sullivan raced, including the T58 and T70

David

You'll have to help me out here. I have got the T53s covered (sort of) and I know a bit about where the surviving T70 is now but could you give me the headlines of when O'Sullivan owned these two and what the outstanding questions are?

Thanks

Allen

[David McKinney]

It’s perhaps easiest to look at the picture chronologically
1965
•late in year O’Sullivan races ex-Patterson 2.5 (apparently F1-5-61)
1966
•crashes at Lakeside - car rebuilt into sportscar
•acquires T58 (F1-12-61) from Tony Osborne and races same
•also acquires but does not race a mystery 2.0 car, supposedly in Australia since 1962 (but apparently not raced)
1967
•O’Sullivan acquires the ex-McLaren T70 from Bill Patterson and races same
•O’Sullivan (and Jaime Gard) race the T58
•O’Sullivan (and Bill Downey) race the mystery 2.0 car
1968
T58 sold to Gordon Stephenson

I don’t know what happened to the T70 after that but you might

[Allen Brown]

David

Thanks for mapping that out for me. This T58 business doesn't fit with anything I have. Is this the car that Osborne raced in 1963 and had got from Lex Davison? If so, I have it as an ex-Brabham car but "maybe F2-17-60". Where does your identification as the T58 come from? Also, is this that car that became the Argo sports later on?

Then there's a "mystery 2-litre car". I have nothing at all on that. Where is that now?

But I guess this is where I get into trouble because I never completely digested that wonderful email you sent me on the Australian lowlines.

Allen (3/10 - must try harder)

[David McKinney]

My notes also refer to "an ex-Brabham car, possibly F2-17-60" - in regard to the first car O'Sullivan bought from Patterson (ie, the one everyone now calls F1-5-61)

Yes, the T58 is the car Osborne bought from Davo. My identification for same would have come from contemporary Oz magazine reports, most likely Racing Car News

I don't recall which Cooper was the basis for the Argo

Are you beginning to see why the O'Sullivan Coopers need to be sorted out?

[Mac Lark]

Now really Allen - way too modest..

If I said to you last Friday 'You've got til Monday morning to come up with an A to Z on F5000', you'd have done a better job.

I'd have done a better job - I mean Forsgrini, a Kiwi. Please!

The Elfins deserve way more credit, there's nothing on the Begg 018.

I'm amazed anyone published it. A book it is but I can't open it without getting frustrated and angry.

It's the only book I have where I've gone through it with a pen and actually made my own corrections. And I assure you I'm not a schoolteacher!

[Ray Bell]

My memory tells me that Gordon Stephenson also moved into the T70... but from there, I know not where it went... or do I?

This is the Phil Hill car, isn't it? Then it's now in the hands of Adam Berryman... who some time ago sent me a photo of the cockpit, something I needed (and it's not actually the right angle either, so anyone else who can help is welcome so to do) for reference for a painting I want to get done to accompany my story of the 1965 AGP. He also included a brief history of the car, it may well be complete enough to bring you up to speed.

Chassis number: Original chassis number was: FL/1/63
Re-numbered by Cooper factory in 1964 to FL/2/64

Previous Owners: 1964-1965: Bruce McLaren Motor Racing Ltd
1965-1966: Bruce McLaren Motor Racing Ltd
1966-1967: Bill Paterson
1967-1968: F.D.O’Sullivan
1968-1969: A. Stephenson
1969-1970: Ken Jones
1970-1974: Ken Barnard
1974-1985: Richard Berryman
1985-to date: Adam Berryman
History:
This car was one of two T70s built by the Cooper Car Company in September 1963. They were built at the request of Bruce McLaren, who wanted to build a pair of special lightweight Coopers, in order to launch his assult on the 1964 Tasman Championship to be held in Australia and New Zealand.
The two cars were built using a semi-monocoque chassis design, which involved a stressed-skin steel panelling being brazed on to the four tubes of the centre cockpit surround, thus enabling extra rigidity and strength.
The cars were equipped with 2.5 Litre Coventry Climax FPF engines, mounted to a Cooper-Knight gearbox and Weber 58mm carburettors. The 2.5 litre engine produced 243 b.h.p. at 6800 r.p.m. with an overall weight for the car being 955lbs.
This car was originally chassis number FL/1/63 which arrived in New Zealand for Round 1 of the 1964 Tasman Cup Championship at Levin, New Zealand. The car was driven in this series by Bruce McLaren who managed three New Zealand wins plus numerous podium finishes in Australia to enable him to have earned enough points to win the inaugural 1964 Tasman Championship.

With regard to Elfin in F5000...

I have to say that if they are ignored or largely set aside, it is a great disservice to Garrie Cooper and his team, and the drivers of these cars.

They made the pace in the latter years of the formula, even building the only 'ground effect' F5000 built. But even their first car, the MR5, developed and raced by John McCormack, was a tremendously successful/impressive car.

It won the New Zealand Grand Prix, don't forget, and came within an ace of taking the Australian Grand Prix despite the rear suspension hanging by a thread! That must rate as one of the gutsiest drives of all time!

[Mac Lark]

When the MR5 debuted in NZ in Jan. 72 I couldn't believe how neat Max Stewart's yellow 'Seiko' one looked ( and went) and how average the works cars of Mc Cormick and Cooper looked (and went).

A years worth of development later and a new wide nose and the car was transformed.

Come on Ray and Allen, and any other F5000 enthusiasts - help me with my new ULTIMATE F5000 grids. For obvious reasons, I have a 'pre Lola T330/2' and a 'post Lola T330/2' field. Shall we do the entry first to save arguments as to who'd start where.

[Ray Bell]

Actually, McCormack (yes, there's an 'a' in there...) was less than enamoured of the Elfins...

"...once you've ridden a few of them into the fence..." is a phrase I recall him using at one time, yet he did press on incredibly hard at some times.

Not bad at all for a driver who said he never raced at Longford.

Max Stewart's developments to his car as his short time with it progressed led to it slithering out of corners in a most spectacular way... undoubtedly why Matich made his comments about him so condemning.

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Mac Lark
Come on Ray and Allen, and any other F5000 enthusiasts - help me with my new ULTIMATE F5000 grids. For obvious reasons, I have a 'pre Lola T330/2' and a 'post Lola T330/2' field. Shall we do the entry first to save arguments as to who'd start where.

Mac

Great idea but it would be better off on a new thread. Most people would never find it down here.

Allen

[Mac Lark]

Hey Allen

Did you get hold of the new Gardos owner?

[Allen Brown]

Mac

I haven't tried him yet. I have emailed Jaime and will get the basic from him before I speak to the new owner. I always like to appear that I know what I'm talking about!

Allen

[Ray Bell]

So what's the latest with this quest, Allen?

I hope you're getting somewhere with it.

[Allen Brown]

Time for an update...

Jaime and Don have been very helpful - we're getting closer and closer to the answers.

The M10A was indeed wrecked at Teretonga and some parts from it were later used to build the Gardos F5000. Meanwhile, a brand new M18 was bought from Trojan for use in Aussie F5000. A little later, Jaime and Don decided to build a sports car for the then 5-litre Aussie rules and bought the M22 from Trojan as they thought it would be an ideal donor of parts for a Gardos sports car. The M22 turned out to be of much more recent spec than the M18 so they decided to keep the M22 for F5000 and the M18 was stripped instead to create the sports car. So the M18 was reduced to a bare tub and was later sold, with the M22, to Chris Milton. The M22 later went from Milton to Alan Newton who still has it. The M18's trail has gone cold but Jaime is trying to get in touch with Milton.

Meanwhile, the Gardos F5000 was sold to a chap called David who was backing Keith Poole. This would presumably be connected to the "C & C Autos" that entered Poole when he first appeared with the Gardos at Oran Park (1 Feb 1976 - but a DNA). Poole first raced the Gardos at Adelaide 8 Feb 1976, qualifying reasonably well and finishing 7th. Jaime recalls the Gardos being damaged in a workshop fire at "David's" place in Adelaide but the damage was not major and the car was repaired. Jaime then believes Barry Singleton bought the Gardos from Poole's benefactor. This car is now in New Zealand.

The major outstanding mysteries are:

1) Who was "David"?

2) Why did Autoweek and others refer to Milton's car as the Gardos when it was actually the McLaren M22? This happens in particular in Autoweek in 1977. Did the Aussie magazines also call it the Gardos?

All help gratefully received.

Allen

[Brian Lear]

Allen

"David" would be David Craig who was a principal of
"C & C Autos" in Adelaide.
I dont have a contact number or address, but I will
ask some of my South Australian friends.

Brian Lear
Australia

[Allen Brown]

Brian

Wonderful!!

TNF never ceases to amaze me for facilitating answers to the most impossible questions

Many thanks.

Allen

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Brian Lear
Allen

"David" would be David Craig who was a principal of
"C & C Autos" in Adelaide.
I dont have a contact number or address, but I will
ask some of my South Australian friends.

Brian Lear
Australia

Brian... as I'm in Adelaide at the moment, if you ring me on 0411 280 267 I can chase this up for you, but I'd need to know by about 10am... ring me at any time night or day.

[Allen Brown]

I've tried to answer my original questions:

• What happened to the Team Matich McLaren M10B crashed by O'Sullivan at Teretonga in 1971? Wrecked - parts used for the Gardos F5000.
• What was the "McLaren M18" first seen at Mallala on 11 Oct 1971? Was it a new factory car, a second-hand car or a rebuild of the Matich McLaren M10B? It was new.
• What happened to the McLaren M18 after its last known appearance at Warwick Farm on 5 Nov 1972? Stripped and parts used for the Gardos-McLaren sports and the Gardos F5000. The bare tub was sold off with the M22.
• When was the McLaren M22 bought from VDS - was that 1972 or 1973? 1973.
• Was the Gardos built from the McLaren M18? No, but it did use some components. The main reason for stripping the M18 was to provide parts for the Gardos-McLaren sports.
• Why was the Gardos built if O'Sullivan had just bought a relatively new McLaren M22? Because the M22 was bought as a donor for the sports car (when they saw how up to date it was they stripped the M18 instead and kept the M22 in F5000 spec). RCN June 1974 says Gard and O'Sullivan wanted to try building a car incorporating their own ideas for 1974.
• What became of the Gardos? Who was the next owner? David Craig.
• What became of the McLaren M22? Who was the next owner? Chris Milton
• And, just to close down another mystery, what happened to the ex-Stillwell Cooper 'lowline' owned by O'Sullivan in 1965/66? We'll get onto that next!

Allen

[cavvy]

A little late it seems, but it is related to Don O'Sullivan & Jaime Gard - mention is made of the Gardos McLaren sports car, & this set my memory grinding.
The first of O'Sullivans sporties was built up from a damaged Cooper, not sure which model. It was fitted with a 289 Ford & raced at Caersham in the mid 60s. I've always believed that car to have evolved in the hands of Stan Starcevich to become the Graduate sports car owned at one stage by Derek Vince. Anyone know if I am right?

Next came a Lola T70 at the end of the 60s (was it a Mk2?).

Then came a McLaren LT170 , built up in house - I thought it was the Lola tub, no idea about the running gear & a body that I have no idea on, not the T70. The car was competitive in the hands of Howie Sangster, running with the Bob Jane McLaren M6b Repco driven by John Harvey. It was sold in Australia & the last owner I remember was Maddocks.

That car does not seem to exist these day, but the ex O'Sullivan Lola T70 runs in historics in the US these days.

Then came the first of the Gardos sports cars, but this is just a dim memory & perhaps the car referred to as the Gardos McLaren.

The Gardos sportsy I remember at Wanneroo was a Mclaren M8F (?) built up by the O'Sullivan team from bits imported to minmise import duties - this car now races as a McLaren M8 in the US.

Anyone able to clarify my dimming memory?

[Terry Walker]

If I can get this picture to show ... the two low-line Coopers on the grid. The guy standing to right is I think Jim harken, or similar name, O'Sullivan's mechanic and who, I believe actually built the various O'Sullivan cars from Jaime Gard's designs. I also have a pic of the Cooper-Ford sports, built I understand from spare parts which came with the coopers.

[IMG]http://img91.imagesh...opers4vi.th.jpg[IMG]

[Ray Bell]

There was a thread about this a couple of years ago...

From what I remember, Don O'Sullivan crashed one car in one Tasman Cup race and appeared the next week with another. So this would appear to indicate that he resurrected the car he crashed?

[cavvy]

The earlier thread covered the Coopers - my interest is the sporties particularly the Lola & the McLaren LT170.
I think O'Sullivan also ran a Matich SR3 in that time.

[Ray Bell]

Yes he did... and with the Repco V8 too...

I remember well worrying a lot as he and Lionel Ayers approached the kink at Lakeside in close company.

He also co-drove with Matich in a Caversham 6-hour.

[cavvy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Allen Brown
[B]I've tried to answer my original questions:
[]
[*]What happened to the McLaren M18 after its last known appearance at Warwick Farm on 5 Nov 1972? Stripped and parts used for the Gardos-McLaren sports and the Gardos F5000. The bare tub was sold off with the M22.
[*]When was the McLaren M22 bought from VDS - was that 1972 or 1973? 1973.
[*]Was the Gardos built from the McLaren M18? No, but it did use some components. The main reason for stripping the M18 was to provide parts for the Gardos-McLaren sports.
[*]Why was the Gardos built if O'Sullivan had just bought a relatively new McLaren M22? Because the M22 was bought as a donor for the sports car (when they saw how up to date it was they stripped the M18 instead and kept the M22 in F5000 spec). RCN June 1974 says Gard and O'Sullivan wanted to try building a car incorporating their own ideas for 1974.
QUOTE]

Question re the sports car: The O'Sullivan team bought a McLaren M8D to WA in bits to avoid duty - this car won the Brian Redman race at Road America earlier this year & is part of The Matthews Collection.

Allen, is this the sporty you are referring to - it raced as a Gardos.

[Allen Brown]

This may be dangerous territory but can I ask if it possible that the Gardos sports car, built using quite a few McLaren components, is now being passed off as a "genuine" McLaren M8D.

Or should I keep my nose out of such things because I don't know what I'm talking about?

Allen

[cavvy]

Allen refer to www.matthewscollection.com

There may have been 2 x Gardos sports cars - fuzzy memory.