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Bailey or Herbert?


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#1 Nilz295

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 21:09

Hi!!

What was the reason, why Lotus choose Julian Bailey instead of Johnny Herbert at the beginning of 1991????

Herbert was the test- and sub-driver for Lotus in 1990 and replaced Donnelly after his bad accident.

And why replaced Lotus Herbert with Bartels at Hockenheim and Budapest?? Was it because Bartels had better sponsorship, which brought more money to Lotus???? Then why didnt' Bartels finished the 1991 season??? :confused:

I hope you can give me answers!!

Nilz295

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#2 AndreasF1

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 21:27

As far as I remember. Lotus was in financial difficulties. They replaced Herbert with Bartles because he brought with him much needed cash. That cash came from no other than Bartles then girlfriend Steffie Graf. Once Lotus realized that Bartles was like a Yoong of the early 90's he got the boot. Bartles later blamed his F1 failure due to limited testing time with the car.

#3 cheesy poofs

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 21:29

Originally posted by Nilz295
And why replaced Lotus Herbert with Bartels at Hockenheim and Budapest?? Was it because Bartels had better sponsorship, which brought more money to Lotus???? Then why didnt' Bartels finished the 1991 season???



Thoses two races clashed with Johnny's Japanese F3000 drive and that is why he was replaced by Bartels. He was commited to that that drive and did not want to back out of them.

#4 Geza Sury

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 06:52

Actually Bartels had tried to qualify the Lotus four times: Hockenheim, Budapest, Monza and Barcelona. He never made it through the qualifying hurdle. BTW I met him in 1998 when he was racing for Porsche in the FIA GT series. Very nice chap!

#5 Leif Snellman

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 11:34

Bartels? I remember him from Helsinki ITC 1995. Took pole and dominared early part of the race.
Then took a couple of victories in the DTM series later that year. Made quite a good impression.

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#6 -Japé-

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 15:23

By the view of the "Ratpack" (Bailey, Blundell, Donnelly, Herbert, Hill, McGarthy) Lotus was really interesting team in 1991. If I have undestood correctly, it is said that Donnelly had already made deal to drive Lotus for '91. Johnny came to replace Martin after his accident. Further more I think Donnelly was to be paid for his driving at 1991 and that would mean Lotus had to get some rich guys for the second car. Cause Donnelly had his accident, Lotus had chance to go for 3 pay drivers (Bailey, Bartels and Hakkinen) and one who probably didn't have to pay (Collins favourite - Herbert). In my point of view, Lotus was the first team to use pay drivers that could be switched from race to race if needed. If Hakkinen would had already made a deal with DAMS for F3000 1991, it would had opened other free "paid driver" seat for Lotus. Probably Lotus could had taken Mega for the first car with Herbert in couple races and for the second car, these guys with limited budget; Bailey could start (as in real live) then McGarthy for couple races and probably Hill after the mid season to make some fame and get sponsors for 1992.

At the end I wonder who Lotus managed to do "all Japanese team" without Japanies drivers, I mean most of their sponsor money '91-'94 came from Japanese companies and they also finaly managed to get/to buy Mugen Honda engines too. Maybe they should had been taken Katayama or Suzuki instead of Lamy and via that to gain even more money from more pleased Japanese companies. In a that way they would gone bankrupt in '94. ;)

#7 COUGAR508

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 01:23

My reading of it was that Bailey's money ran out after a few races, and the team decided that they needed some hard results anyway, so Johnny was restored. Julian produced a great drive at Imola in the rain.

I think it's a bit unfair to label Bartels as just a pay-driver. He had a reasonable record in F3/F3000.

#8 Agnis

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 12:15

In Darren Galpin's archive there is a quote that says that initially Donnelly planned to return to driving already in Imola.

#9 fines

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 16:25

Originally posted by AndreasF1
As far as I remember. Lotus was in financial difficulties. They replaced Herbert with Bartles because he brought with him much needed cash. That cash came from no other than Bartles then girlfriend Steffie Graf.

:lol: a likely story, but no way, mate! Actually Bartels did not pay for the drive, he got it on merit. He did have a low-budget sponsor ("RH Alu Wheel" iirc), but it's unlikely that tipped any scale (was it even on the car?). Don't forget Lotus had a German co-owner those days (Horst Schübel), and Bartels was Germany's brightest prospect in F3000.

#10 Formula Once

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 17:52

Bartels did pay for the drive, see below (Abendblatt, 1991).

800 000 Dollar kostet der Einstieg des jüngsten deutschen Formel-1-Fahrers. Ein Zigarettenkonzern (Marlboro), ein Verlag (Motor-Presse- Stuttgart), ein Olzusatz-Hersteller (Liqui Moly) und ein Süßwaren-Fabrikant (Tic Tac) ebneten den Weg zum großen Sport.

Or maybe in the end he didn't or not everything, which would fit nicely into the whole Schübel saga...

#11 COUGAR508

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 20:38

Thankfully, Lotus seemed to acquire more sponsorship for 1992, and so the driver line-up was not disrupted.

#12 Tim Murray

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 21:05

So what if Horst Schübel had chosen to put another up-and-coming young German driver named Schumacher in the car instead of Bartels? If he had similarly failed to make a good impression and been sent back to sports cars, history might have been very different ...

#13 Formula Once

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 21:14

Maybe Schumacher (or rather Mercedes) would not have taken up the offer. Remember Alain Prost refused to race for Ensign at the end of 1979 which was probably one of the best decisions of his career.

#14 maplestone71

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 22:03

It's an interesting point.

I've been going through some old copies of Autosport / Motoring New and speculation at the time mentioned Schumacher though Bartels was usually mentioned as favourite.

Does anyone know whether Schumacher was ever a serious possibility at Lotus?

#15 ensign14

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 22:18

Originally posted by Tim Murray
So what if Horst Schübel had chosen to put another up-and-coming young German driver named Schumacher in the car instead of Bartels? If he had similarly failed to make a good impression and been sent back to sports cars, history might have been very different ...

I remember saying to someone at the time that I could not understand why Bartels, who had shown the thick end of eff all in F3k, had been given the drive, and that if Lotus needed a German for Germany they should have picked this young chap Schumacher...

#16 ghinzani

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 02:48

Originally posted by ensign14

I remember saying to someone at the time that I could not understand why Bartels, who had shown the thick end of eff all in F3k, had been given the drive, and that if Lotus needed a German for Germany they should have picked this young chap Schumacher...


At the time I would have given the nod to Wendlinger over Schumacher. Shows how wrong one can be.. Stilll I bet Karls a nicer bloke. He still races GTs for fun doesnt he?

#17 Formula Once

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:25

The Schubel-connection helped Bartels getting the Lotus drive I guess. I think that at that time the real trouble with Horst hadn't started yet. Bartels drove for Schubel later again (DTM and FIA GT I believe).

#18 fines

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 09:10

Originally posted by Formula Once
Bartels did pay for the drive, see below (Abendblatt, 1991).

800 000 Dollar kostet der Einstieg des jüngsten deutschen Formel-1-Fahrers. Ein Zigarettenkonzern (Marlboro), ein Verlag (Motor-Presse- Stuttgart), ein Olzusatz-Hersteller (Liqui Moly) und ein Süßwaren-Fabrikant (Tic Tac) ebneten den Weg zum großen Sport.

Or maybe in the end he didn't or not everything, which would fit nicely into the whole Schübel saga...

I stand corrected. On reflection, there was perhaps a touch of naivety involved in suggesting somebody could get a drive in a team like that in the early nineties without any sort of financial contribution. Still, I'm surprised at the volume of it!

#19 jcbc3

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 09:11

I thought your original reservation was about who paid. Since, the list doesn't include Graff.

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#20 fines

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 09:15

Originally posted by ensign14

I remember saying to someone at the time that I could not understand why Bartels, who had shown the thick end of eff all in F3k, had been given the drive, and that if Lotus needed a German for Germany they should have picked this young chap Schumacher...

Originally posted by ghinzani


At the time I would have given the nod to Wendlinger over Schumacher. Shows how wrong one can be.. Stilll I bet Karls a nicer bloke. He still races GTs for fun doesnt he?

I think I've said it before, but at the time Schumacher was flying entirely under my radar! I regarded Bartels as the best German bet - agreed, not a potential World Champion, but a solid midfielder career à la Blundell appeared to be on the cards...

#21 Twin Window

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 10:07

Originally posted by fines

Still, I'm surprised at the volume of it!

You shouldn't be; there were some ridiculous sums being quoted (and commanded) around that time when, you may recall, Japan in particular was investing shed-loads of funding into F1.

Not to be out-done at the prospect of raking-in the cash, EJ quoted me $1M for a testing role for Tommy, in exchange for a logo on the rear wing endplates. When you consider that he'd taken Pepsi/7 Up for only 2.5M, that really was taking the p!ss! :rolleyes:

Mind you, he did manage to turn Pepsi/7 Up over for a further (and not insignificant) sum when the team appeared at a test with only the cars in 7 Up livery and not the trucks, motorhomes nor personnel. "Oh, beejayzus - you'll be having to pay extra for all that y'know"

#22 ghinzani

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 11:22

Originally posted by Twin Window

You shouldn't be; there were some ridiculous sums being quoted (and commanded) around that time when, you may recall, Japan in particular was investing shed-loads of funding into F1.

Not to be out-done at the prospect of raking-in the cash, EJ quoted me $1M for a testing role for Tommy, in exchange for a logo on the rear wing endplates. When you consider that he'd taken Pepsi/7 Up for only 2.5M, that really was taking the p!ss! :rolleyes:

Mind you, he did manage to turn Pepsi/7 Up over for a further (and not insignificant) sum when the team appeared at a test with only the cars in 7 Up livery and not the trucks, motorhomes nor personnel. "Oh, beejayzus - you'll be having to pay extra for all that y'know"


Did EJ offer any deals vis a vis sponsoring his syrup? Imagine a nice green stripe down the middle, like a punk badger.

#23 ensign14

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 11:36

Wendlinger is of course Austrian. Could that have played against him? Certainly Bernie was after a fast German to get into the biggest market in Europe...

#24 Formula Once

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 11:48

By the way: Schübel was to pay 4 million pounds for 50% of the team, but only paid half a million.

#25 jeze

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 11:52

Originally posted by Geza Sury
Actually Bartels had tried to qualify the Lotus four times: Hockenheim, Budapest, Monza and Barcelona. He never made it through the qualifying hurdle. BTW I met him in 1998 when he was racing for Porsche in the FIA GT series. Very nice chap!


Pretty good nowadays in GT racing as well. He's got lots of titles with his own Vitaphone team, even though they are mostly due to his extremely talented co-driver Andrea Bertolini, but nobody can argue that he's a pretty handy GT driver.

#26 COUGAR508

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Posted 25 April 2009 - 18:45

Originally posted by maplestone71
It's an interesting point.

I've been going through some old copies of Autosport / Motoring New and speculation at the time mentioned Schumacher though Bartels was usually mentioned as favourite.

Does anyone know whether Schumacher was ever a serious possibility at Lotus?



In those days, because there were more teams in F1, there were many rumours around, perhaps even more so than today, and there seemed to be more sponsors around who were touting drivers around. I must confess that I don't recall Schumacher being linked with Lotus, although it is a long time ago, so I may be wrong! :)

#27 Twin Window

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Posted 25 April 2009 - 19:08

Eejay out-greeding himself over Schumacher is a story which will never fail to make me smile (in a nice way though, as I like Eddie and we've known each other for almost thirty years) but I suppose it's not really for this thread.

#28 PRD

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 18:33

Originally posted by Twin Window
Eejay out-greeding himself over Schumacher is a story which will never fail to make me smile (in a nice way though, as I like Eddie and we've known each other for almost thirty years) but I suppose it's not really for this thread.


I was watching the F1 forum this afternoon on the BBC's red button and was most amused when EJ was talking to Ross Brawn and telling him ( in not so many words ) to get hold of Richard Branson and grab the money. :lol:

RB was saying that he wanted to build an on-going relationship. He probably doesn't want sponsors feeling that they'd just been mugged ;)

#29 Giraffe

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 19:10

Originally posted by Twin Window
Eejay out-greeding himself over Schumacher is a story which will never fail to make me smile (in a nice way though, as I like Eddie and we've known each other for almost thirty years) but I suppose it's not really for this thread.


When I see you Twinny, Ian Smith Diz, and innumerable others on TNF, I feel like I'm the only guy around who DOESN'T know Eddie! When I worked in Ireland many years ago, if an Irishman met you while you were over there on holiday, they used to say that from then onwards, he was on holiday with you; seems like EJ went on alot of holidays!!! :lol:

#30 Twin Window

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 20:04

I think the definition of knowing Eejay is the manner in which he greets you. In my case, the last time we spoke face-to-face (we've talked on the 'phone since, but that doesn't count) was at the British GP 2005, whereupon he acknowledged me with words along the lines of 'Jeyzus christ, it's you ya fekkin' c**t! Long time, no-see - how are ya, ya fekka?'

He's not doing such a good job on the BBC though, in my opinion, as it's not 'what he does best'...

;)

#31 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 21:11

Even I knew EJ (I even got to sit in the EJ191 in 91 and I was too f in big for it - that was the end of my single seater dreams!!).

I never knew how true it was and as I have no contact with him now I can't substantiate it but every year Dad got invited to the Jordan Christmas party at the factory and Dad said it was because when EJ came over to the UK to race that he helped him out financially - I don't know if true or not but it would half stack up as Dad did help other racers out, so much so one month he had the electricity cut off at his house to help a young up and comer!!

Anyway, one of the Christmas parties we went to, Roger Clark came to as well and it was the year Irvine had joined F1 and Jordan ('93?). Dad knew Eddie I's parent from his racing at Mondello and Phoenix and got EJ to introduce him as he had quite like his episode with Senna at Suzuka. He also intorduced Roger and I and it's one of the few times I had to stop Dad hitting someone (I was only little then too!!). Eddie was very grascious in his meeting of Dad and did say his parents used to take him to watch Dad whenever he went over to Ireland (and that he was a fan!!) and then when Eddie I was introduced to Roger he said "Roger who", EJ and Roger didn't quite get it and said "Roger Clark, the rally driver" and with that Eddie said something along the lines of "never heard of ya" (I've deleted the swear words!!) and walked off - Dad & RAC weren't amused and I don't think EJ knew what to say either!!

Back on topic - I always really like both Herbet and Bailey as there were both down to earth normal people, no egos at all (I think they both had pubs at one time too!!) and both very good drivers but I suppose I was lucky to meet them both (and know one of the main shareholders in Lotus GP at then end - a well-known saloon car driver) and Martin Donnelly too - I think Martin's father, Martin Senior, passed away around the same time as Dad - but all the British Lotus drivers were good, nice, normal, approachable people and it's a real shame they're still around.