28 replies to this topic

[tania_walesuk]

Does anyone remember this Grand Prix and why it was so exciting and funny, does anyone think Senna was cool or a cheat ? I think he was just racing really hard and got away with it.
I'm interested to here your comments.

[scheivlak]

Don't know what you're pointing at! Some bulldozer action?
What I remember is that Senna found his master - at least for that very special day...

Boutsen's win was in a way comparable with Gilles Villeneuve's legendary 1981 Jarama win - keeping a string of world class drivers at bay on a kartish circuit. Of course there was some difference: Gilles maximized the raw speed and accelaration of his car, Thierry kept everyone at bay by excellent tyre management IIRC.

Though Boutsen wasn't a very charismatic driver to say the least, all his wins were classics: Montreal 1989, Adelaide 1989, Hungaroring 1990!

[mikedeering]

IIRC, Senna was quite friendly with Boutsen, which explains why he didn't punt him off in the same decisive way as he dealt with Nannini. Afterwards Senna admitted as much - joking with Boutsen that if the situation arose again he would take out the Belgian!

[Wouter]

I remember it well, as I was cheering for Boutsen! Both McLaren's raced a bit like bumpercars, allthough they somehow survived. Especially Nannini wasn't pleased and IIRC with reason. It's correct by the way that Senna and Boutsen (and Alboreto) were on friendly terms.

Something else that I later heard about it, was that Boutsen only got congratulated later by Williams by fax, hard as that seems to understand (can anyone confirm this?). Williams and Head probably knew already that Boutsen wouldn't be allowed to stay.

[ensign14]

I remember it. Senna in 3rd tried a bonehead move and nerfed Nannini out of 2nd - IIRC, his wheel impacted the sidepod of the Benetton. He should have been blackflagged for that, or at least disciplined. It may have prevented that nonsense in Japan.

[Rediscoveryx]

It was a great defensive race by Boutsen, I'd rate it up there with Gilles at Jarama 1981. Boutsen is a rather underrated driver, he never had a real top car (though the 1990 Williams was pretty good), and yet, he managed to squeeze three great wins out of the Senna/Prost/Mansell/Piquet/Berger generation.

[mikedeering]

Boutsen won 3 times and Patrese only once in 1989-1990. In the race Patrese did win, it was Boutsen who led before retirement.

I think at the time Frank felt he lacked aggression and not fiery enough (although I wouldn't describe Patrese as such...).

His 1988 performances for Benetton were good, but after 1990 it was all down hill for Thierry, culminating in the 1993 Jordan debacle.

[Richard Jenkins]

Along with the superb wet drive in 1989 in Canada, which he won as well, this was Boutsen's finest hour. There weren't many guys then who could've held off Senna for lap after lap, Nannini wouldn't have done if he was in Boutsen's shoes. It says a lot about the track though when someone as..how shall I put this? reasonably talented & moderately fastguy like Boutsen stays ahead of Senna, but I'm glad he did - it was to end up being one of the big surprise wins of the whole decade!
Any particular reason this race has entered your memory Tania? It would be nice for a repeat performance but I suppose it would be akin to Trulli/Schumacher now.

[SB]

I remember the 1991 Hungarian GP -

Gachot post the fastest lap of the race in his green 7-up Jordan in their debut season. After the race Gachot was sent to jail and his seat was replaced by a young German named Micheal Schumacher ......

SB

[John B]

I remember a letter to On Track magazine following that race....an angry reader blasted Berger and Senna, referring to them as "McLaren's butcher boys" among other things...

[tania_walesuk]

Given a few more laps Senna wouldv'e had him it was great fun pure racing as they say wheel to wheel action like a train of cars with the fastest guy on earth stuck behind a bunch of slow coaches headed by the biggest slow coach of them all..lol

[Wouter]

Originally posted by mikedeering
Boutsen won 3 times and Patrese only once in 1989-1990. In the race Patrese did win, it was Boutsen who led before retirement.

I think at the time Frank felt he lacked aggression and not fiery enough (although I wouldn't describe Patrese as such...).

His 1988 performances for Benetton were good, but after 1990 it was all down hill for Thierry, culminating in the 1993 Jordan debacle.

Boutsen was still very good in 1991 (see Imola 1991 for example), but the Ligier-Lambo wasn't exactly the car to shine in. From 1992 - and new disappointment with the Ligier-Renault - on his motivation diminished.

[BobP]

Hadda check mah 'references afore ah answered this'un...

The race is noted for 3 major occurances:

1. Boutsen took his first F1 pole and drove a clean race to a well deserved and publically aclaimed win. A tremendous amount of blocking, weaving and lawn mowing occured within various packs of pursuers, yet Thierry retained his calm and mostly just held to his racing line to the finish on fading rubber.

2. The race itself [behind the leader] was a real dogfight. Both McLaren Thugs [Senna and Berger] deliberately took out drivers ahead of them to gain position in a largely high-schpeed processional race. Senna got away with blatently hooking the rear tyre of Nannini to spin him out; Berger tried the same thing a bit later with Martini, but taking both cars into the grass and retirement. No one penalized. Damnit.

A comment here: many thought that allowing Senna to escape unscathed from his blatent on-circuit thuggery at the Hungaroring ended up fueling his kamakaze act at Suzuka later that season against Prost. This race is amoung many that fed my intense dislike for Senna's imperious and unsportsmanlike driving schtyle. And so ah have never been one of his fans. To this day.

3. More aptly, this race was the first time that season that McLaren didn't lead a single race lap. Ron Dennis was livid afterward and blamed everyone but himself. This all too usual infantile CPT Ronrageous behaviour has a long pedigree[d] one sees... Sigh...

Forza witha loooong look backass'ards,

Bob

[Bladrian]

AMEN, Bro. I was a Prost fan during that era - I regarded him as being the new Lauda. Senna I just regarded as a bully, from the moment I heard about his shenanigans before he condescended to join Lotus. Nothing he did during his career after that moment convinced me of the contrary.

[Geza Sury]

I remember the race well as I was a paying spectator on that day and was lucky to sit (actually stand) in a good place and witness both accidents. I never forget seeing Mansell stuck in a gravel trap amongst a cloud of dust! The race itself was quite exciting. It was a real RACE unlike the last few Hungarian Grands Prix. Senna, who had had a long pitstop chased the non-stopping Boutsen all the way to the end, who's tyres were totally destroyed at the end of the race. He lated admitted if the race had lasted one more lap, probably Senna have won.

What else happened during that weekend? A touring car race was held after the warm-up which young Karl Wendlinger won driving a Mercedes.

The 1990 event was one of the best Hungarian Grands Prix. I've visited every race so far and I will be there this year as well. I'm afraid the forthcoming race would never be as exciting as the 1990 race was!

[joachimvanwing]

Originally posted by mikedeering
Boutsen won 3 times and Patrese only once in 1989-1990. In the race Patrese did win, it was Boutsen who led before retirement.
I think at the time Frank felt he lacked aggression and not fiery enough (although I wouldn't describe Patrese as such...).

The main reason for Frank to have hired Boutsen in 1989 was to develop the new car with the new Renault engine. Boutsen may have been an underrated driver throughout his career, but IMO he's an absolute underrated testdriver and car- and enginedeveloper. It was in fact Boutsen who did all the testing with Newey and Dudot. He really developed the perfect package for Mansell and Prost to win with.

Senna told the press in 1992 or 1993 that he would like to finish his carreer with Ferrari. He was thinking to move to Ferrari after having won a few titels with Williams. Senna's prefect 2nd man was to be Boutsen, but that never happened.

[arcsine]

The 1990 race must be one of the best races staged at the Hungaroring yet it is unfortunate that the same race is often used as an example of how diffficult it is to pass at the Hungaroring "Boutsen sat in front for the whole race and even Senna couldn't pass". They ignore the fact that there was plenty of action and changing of places from 2nd place downwards.

[Maldwyn]

Originally posted by joachimvanwing
It was in fact Boutsen who did all the testing with Newey and Dudot. He really developed the perfect package for Mansell and Prost to win with.

Agreed, Boutsen was an excellent test driver but all the testing Although Patrese was perhaps not considered a match for TB when the Belgian joined Williams much of the reason for his departure a couple of years later was that the Italian matched and beat him regularly. Also both Renault and Williams rated Patrese's test and development skills very highly.

[JtP]

Originally posted by Wouter


Something else that I later heard about it, was that Boutsen only got congratulated later by Williams by fax, hard as that seems to understand (can anyone confirm this?). Williams and Head probably knew already that Boutsen wouldn't be allowed to stay.

This probably follows from Canada, where Boutsen threw his Williams out of 3rd place. Well 2nd at the time of the accident, by trying to overtake Prost on the dry line with boutsen using the puddles. Williams and Head were somewhat annoyed.

Boutsen was quoted in Autosport as saying "I won't do that again". Roebuck's comment was "Not in a Williams anyway" indicating that he would not be driving a Williams the next season. So Williams rushed off and employed a retiring Nigel Mansell.

[rallen]

Apparently I have read that Patrick Head said/thought that if Nannini had been in 2nd place for the last few laps and not been punted off, he would have won not Boutsen. Does anyone know why he thought this, why was Nannini more likely to win than the far better Senna?

[arttidesco]

2. The race itself [behind the leader] was a real dogfight. Both McLaren Thugs [Senna and Berger] deliberately took out drivers ahead of them to gain position in a largely high-schpeed processional race. Senna got away with blatently hooking the rear tyre of Nannini to spin him out; Berger tried the same thing a bit later with Martini, but taking both cars into the grass and retirement. No one penalized. Damnit.

A comment here: many thought that allowing Senna to escape unscathed from his blatent on-circuit thuggery at the Hungaroring ended up fueling his kamakaze act at Suzuka later that season against Prost. This race is among many that fed my intense dislike for Senna's imperious and unsportsmanlike driving schtyle. And so ah have never been one of his fans. To this day.

Brilliant race by Tierry and same old same old FFirst tactics by Senna, they didn't belong in F3 and certainly did not belong in F1, Senna would have become an overnight sensation in NASCAR with his attitude.

[Jesper O. Hansen]

Asked blind folded, I would have thought this race was the 1989 event, but reading the coments about the 1990 Hungarian GP seems right. What I remember from that race was that behind Senna, Gerhard Berger was doing his bit of rough housing as well in the other McLaren and retiring five laps before the finish due to collision. Was there a Jim Bamber cartoon in the following Autosport depicting the two McLarens with front wings drawn as showels!?

I didn't realise (forgotten) that Thierry Boutsen only won three Formula 1 Grands Prix, but he was always one of my favorites for the simple reason he got decent results with Arrows-BMW during his early GP career, raced Porsche 956/962s for Walter Brun and guest starred in touring cars during the 1980s and did rather well! It was Boutsen who ultimately defeafed the second placed Jaguar at the 1986 September Spa-Francorchamps World group C race on gasoline fumes only and was that part of the privateer Brun Motorsport team ultimately winning the team championship.

Jesper

Edited by Jesper O. Hansen, 29 January 2012 - 05:53.

[SteveB2]

Apparently I have read that Patrick Head said/thought that if Nannini had been in 2nd place for the last few laps and not been punted off, he would have won not Boutsen. Does anyone know why he thought this, why was Nannini more likely to win than the far better Senna?

It seems like I"ve seen something along those lines. Nannini was probably my favorite driver at the time. I thought the interesting part came two weeks later when Berger tried to barge his way past up the hill from Eau Rouge. Nannini held him off very aggressively. But, he had burnt up his tires in the effort and lost the place.

[cheapracer]

why was Nannini more likely to win than the far better Senna?

Are you in the wrong forum by chance?

Maybe your lack of knowledge would be appreciated here ...

http://forums.autosp...php?showforum=2

[rallen]

Are you in the wrong forum by chance?

Maybe your lack of knowledge would be appreciated here ...

http://forums.autosp...php?showforum=2

I beg your pardon? why did you say that and why are you being so offensive? I find that uncalled for and very rude

Edited by rallen, 30 January 2012 - 18:57.

[midgrid]

It seems like I"ve seen something along those lines. Nannini was probably my favorite driver at the time. I thought the interesting part came two weeks later when Berger tried to barge his way past up the hill from Eau Rouge. Nannini held him off very aggressively. But, he had burnt up his tires in the effort and lost the place.

Indeed!

Regarding Hungary, the Autocourse race report states that "Sandro was feeling really confident, flexing his muscles prior to making a bid for the lead. He knew he had an edge on top speed towards the end of the startline straight, so it was just a question of timing his dive inside under braking for the first right-hander. Trouble was, Ayrton didn't give him the chance."

Patrick Head also "thanked" Senna for removing Nannini from the lead battle after the race.

IIRC, Senna was quite friendly with Boutsen, which explains why he didn't punt him off in the same decisive way as he dealt with Nannini. Afterwards Senna admitted as much - joking with Boutsen that if the situation arose again he would take out the Belgian!

On a similar note, Senna had spent many laps behind Nannini at the previous race in Germany, which perhaps explains his lack of patience on this occasion!

Edited by midgrid, 30 January 2012 - 20:50.

[rallen]

Interesting, thanks! I get the impression Nannini would have done a better job in a Mclaren then Berger did - he did seem to do a lot of moronic driving - Monaco, Hungary, Spain, Japan 1990 etc. How did Piquet and Nannini compare as team mates? were they close on speed? was there any indication Piquet was unsettled like he was with Mansell?

[midgrid]

Interesting, thanks! I get the impression Nannini would have done a better job in a Mclaren then Berger did - he did seem to do a lot of moronic driving - Monaco, Hungary, Spain, Japan 1990 etc. How did Piquet and Nannini compare as team mates? were they close on speed? was there any indication Piquet was unsettled like he was with Mansell?

My instinct is that Nannini was potentially quicker, but tended to get involved in more incidents than Piquet.

After looking at the statistics, Piquet outqualified Nannini 9-5 (more than I remembered!) and outscored him 26-21 in the course of their 14 races together. Piquet generally had the upper hand in the first part of the season (with the exception of Imola), whilst Nannini came into his own later on. Indeed, Autocourse, goes as far to say that, after a string of accidents which culminated in a heavy shunt during Friday qualifying, Nannini's future with the team appeared to be over, only for him to save his season with a fine run to second in the race, and then a series of good performances thereafter until his helicopter accident. This does, I feel, overlook his performance in the French GP, in which he was on course to finish on the podium again until his electrics failed with a few laps to go, but he definitely improved throughout the season. It's a real shame that he suffered his injury when he did, as I think he had a real chance of winning either or both of the final two races of the season (although Piquet was on particularly fine form in Adelaide). Assuming that he would have been retained by Benetton for 1991 (he was an option for Ferrari, along with Alesi), it would also have been interesting to see how he fared in 1991, and which, if either, of the Benetton drivers would have had to make way for Schumacher at Monza.

As for Piquet and Nannini's relationship as team-mates, I don't really know too much, so it must have been good enough not to produce any bad publicity at least! Or perhaps Piquet was so keen on maximising his retainer by scoring as many points as possible that he didn't particularly care what his team-mate was doing...

[Aloisioitaly]

Senna should have been blackflagged.
As usual, he did get a free pass.