Jump to content


Photo

The Atlas F1 Motor Racing Reference Centre


  • Please log in to reply
70 replies to this topic

#1 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 04 September 2002 - 13:47

I will attempt to summarize the results of the discussion held last night on the TNF Chat room:

1) In the months following this season, Atlas will be moving to a larger server. Bira has offered to provide a portion of the new server to be used as The Atlas F1 Motor Racing Reference Centre.

2) The Reference Centre will be a free service and open to all wishing to use it. I say again, the Reference Centre be a free service available to one and all.

3) The Reference Centre will also accept information from those wishing to place an article or other similar information such as results or regulations. While Atlas will retain the copyright pertaining to the centre, individual contibutions will remain the property (copyright) of the individual contibuting the material where applicable.

3a) There will be an Editorial Board established to review the submissions for placement into the Reference Centre.

3b) All submissions will be placed into a queue and posted after a member of the Editorial Board screens it and then either places it into the material into the Reference Centre. This is done solely to screen out material clearly inappropriate, conduct any editing which may be appropriate, but not to reject articles simply because an editor may object to the conclusions.

4) The Reference Centre will also include links to those web sites -- using the model of the MRH at Sixth Gear/8W -- which have information and other information that would be of value to someone either conduction a review of the literature on a subject or topic as well as someone merely curious about an event, driver, or just looking for some type of information about motor racing that has piqued their interest. The best way to express this is to simply say that the Reference Centre will serve as a "portal" for a user to find information about whatever subject being requested.

5) The Nostalgia Forum and the Reference Centre will merge. The Nostalgia Forum will continue as is -- the same eclectic mixture of threads full of fact and whimsy -- and serve as the gateway to the portal, the Reference Centre.

6) To submit material to the Reference Centre, the only requirement is that the author be a registered member of The Nostalgia Forum, which will remain free.

7) Bira is asking that she be provided a listing of the categories which be incorporated into the database she will build for the Reference Center. She will review the categories submitted and then discuss them. Example of the categories would be: drivers, marques/makes, teams/entrants, results, and so forth.

8) Bira is also asking for a listing of the types of data which will be placed into the Reference Centre. Examples would be: pictures, articles, statistics, and so forth.

9) Bira is also asking for a list of those who would serve as members of the Editorial Board for the Reference Centre.

I think that is most of what we covered and any who were there are free to jump in and expand or explain as well as bring up the various things I probably forgot.

This something that Bira and I discussed some time ago (well over a year or more), but the time simply wasn't "right." I think that it is now the "right" time to go this.

I am going to open this to discussion and see if we can answer any questions that you may have.



Personal Notes:

a) If anyone knows Tim Considine, please contact him about what we are doing and emphasize that this is a FREE service and that we would be honored to place his addenda to his book American Grand Prix Racing into the Reference Centre. Ditto for any others that might benefit from this opportunity.

b) If any of you have ever had the hankering to get THAT article you slaved over and is now sitting in the bottom of your desk drawer because no one seemed interested in it enough to publish it, this is YOUR opportunity to make it available to others. Please take advantage of this opportunity!

c) The message I want to send Loud and Clear is that is an enterprise which WILL BE inclusive and not exclusive. The results and stories of the Estonian Formula Vee series, the Canadian Drivers Championship, the South American Formula Libre races, the story of Ecurie Maarsbergen, the history of Petty Engineering/ Petty Enterprises, the AAA rules for 1922, an explanation of the scoring system used at Brookland in 1935, a history of the car called "Poison Lil," or a season survey of the 1970 South African Championship are all equal in the eyes of the Reference Centre. The value of The Nostalgia Forum has been its ability to keep this sort of information "alive" and available for those who will inevitably succeed us. This is the true origin of the Reference Centre concept.

d) We are beyond talking about this, we will successfully execute this mission. We have time to lay out answers to the queries which Bira has asked and respond to her with the best possible answers we can provide.

Let's make this happen.

Advertisement

#2 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,034 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 04 September 2002 - 20:17

If I may make some comments using Don's paragraph numbers:

3) THe Editorial Board needs some terms of reference. I suggest that for anything posted on the Atlas site itself:
  • Articles should be vetted for accuracy and decency.
  • Any material must be the copyright property of the author (particularly photographs)
  • Articles must be signed and dated
  • Authors should be encouraged, but not obliged, to include a contact address
  • Where possible, sources should be acknowledged
  • Ferrari must be spelt correctly

For articles and data on other sites, the criteria will be less stringent, but they must still exist. Reference from the Atlas Reference Centre implies some level of approval by TNF.

4) THe portal is really the key to the whole thing. It enables us to draw on the vast amount of data already created. It also gives us a large degree of freedom over structure of the information. The portal shoud be the gateway in the Reference Centre, whether it is hosted on the Atlas server or not. It is then only the portal that needs to be aware of the structure of the Reference Centre. All the articles and daa can be stored in a single directory. If at some stage we want to change the structure of the reference centre, we only have to change the portal.

7) See comments on 4). However, as a starting point, I suggest we use either Georgano's main section headings, or the MRH structure.

8) We want to be as wide ranging as possible while ensuring that everybody can access the data. This implies use of HTML wherever possible.

#3 Vincenzo Lancia

Vincenzo Lancia
  • Member

  • 131 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 05 September 2002 - 00:31

It's probably me, being a bit too tired to read properly, but.....

Does this mean, that the title" The nostalgia Forum", will cease to exist??

And if "yes", I'd like to make a comment on that, as I think "The nostalgia forum" ia a very nice name.

1. It is a sloooow name, not smart or "hip", and that's good...
2. It's a warm name. I'm to tired to express it proporly, but I think it's important.
3. well.....probably should have waited posting till tomorrow.......

:rolleyes:

#4 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 05 September 2002 - 00:52

Originally posted by Vincenzo Lancia
It's probably me, being a bit too tired to read properly, but.....

Does this mean, that the title" The nostalgia Forum", will cease to exist??


Heavens, NO! The forum stumbles merrily onward, upward, downward, sideways, and any which way it does now. The only difference is that it has this neat portal as a part of the scenary.

#5 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,705 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 05 September 2002 - 08:04

Indeed, this all sounds like MRH in a more professional set-up...

If that's the case, the Reference Centre (which will hardly need any webspace, as it's "only" a portal) could be up-and-running within, well, days, with the bulk of the content - i.e. links - included within weeks. Should that happen, I'll be happy to let go of the MRH portal (I'm not spending enough time working on it to continue warranting its quality) and be a part of the Reference Centre itself. The first portal on motor racing history isn't necessarily the best :lol:

I would, however, appreciate becoming a member of the Editorial Board, thus sharing the burden of what-used-to-be-MRH-work with others, allowing for a better quality of links. But we would always need the whole TNF community contribute in putting forward new links or reporting dead ones. I see this thread becoming exactly the right place for that.

As for my credentials, I have always spelled Ferrari correctly.

BTW, all of Roger's points are extremely valid and I support them wholeheartedly. I think too that we should focus on the portal and have the main of contributions reside elsewhere, i.e. Golden Era, Grand Prix History, 8W, F1 Rejects, the F2/Le Mans Register, GEL, RetroRacing, Touring Car Racing and all the other top historic sites. This way we would prevent the Centre from becoming a monster swallowing up all other initiatives. We would also spread the bulk of the technical/design work over a larger group of people, instead of the Editorial Board (or even Bira herself) having to do all the hard labour themselves. They would simply need to approve of including a link in the portal. Now that doesn't sound like a day-time job, which would actually make it fun to be part of such a board...

#6 Hans Etzrodt

Hans Etzrodt
  • Member

  • 3,173 posts
  • Joined: July 00

Posted 05 September 2002 - 08:18

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
.....As for my credentials, I have always spelled Ferrari correctly.....

You been sayin Fellali? :confused:

#7 Frank de Jong

Frank de Jong
  • Member

  • 1,811 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 05 September 2002 - 10:56

Verrari so far only figured in a deeply-hidden part of Spa results on my site, so I hope I get away with that.
Seriously, though it makes sense to leave the "top historic sites" :blush: in their own place, I wouldn't mind being coached for subjects, the structure, pictures to replace the current small, low-res but pirated current ones, correct language and writing style. So I would welcome any involvement of the Editorial Board.
Another point: perhaps it would make sense to check the libraries of our members. Besides books, I've got a lot of German and Dutch magazines. I would be willing to help out with any (cross) checking, but it would make sense to divide this between members, so for instance I could use my "Autorensport" magazines of 1977-1983 only, while somebody else might contribute 5 years of Autosport, Sport Auto etc.

#8 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 24,282 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 05 September 2002 - 14:02

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
Indeed, this all sounds like MRH in a more professional set-up...

If that's the case, the Reference Centre (which will hardly need any webspace, as it's "only" a portal) could be up-and-running within, well, days, with the bulk of the content - i.e. links - included within weeks. Should that happen, I'll be happy to let go of the MRH portal (I'm not spending enough time working on it to continue warranting its quality) and be a part of the Reference Centre itself. The first portal on motor racing history isn't necessarily the best :lol:


Roger suggested above that either the MRH headings or the Georgano headings should be used. It's not going to take a lot of work to rearrange MRH to fit Georgano, but doing it the other way round is impossible! And this did all stem from the desire to update and improve Georgano in the first place ....

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
I would, however, appreciate becoming a member of the Editorial Board, thus sharing the burden of what-used-to-be-MRH-work with others, allowing for a better quality of links. But we would always need the whole TNF community contribute in putting forward new links or reporting dead ones. I see this thread becoming exactly the right place for that.


An important point, Mattijs. Okay, it's early days, but we need to decide how and who will be chosen for this board. And quickly, otherwise we may lose momentum!

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Ferrari must be spelt correctly.


Terribly sorry about this Roger, but I really couldn't resist doing this search :rotfl:

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
As for my credentials, I have always spelled Ferrari correctly.


Me too (I hope!) :lol:

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
BTW, all of Roger's points are extremely valid and I support them wholeheartedly. I think too that we should focus on the portal and have the main of contributions reside elsewhere, i.e. Golden Era, Grand Prix History, 8W, F1 Rejects, the F2/Le Mans Register, GEL, RetroRacing, Touring Car Racing and all the other top historic sites. This way we would prevent the Centre from becoming a monster swallowing up all other initiatives. We would also spread the bulk of the technical/design work over a larger group of people, instead of the Editorial Board (or even Bira herself) having to do all the hard labour themselves. They would simply need to approve of including a link in the portal. Now that doesn't sound like a day-time job, which would actually make it fun to be part of such a board...


:up:
And the advantage of this is that most of the webmasters for these sites are already members here. Can I suggest that we set up some sort of Atlas Nostalgia Forum "Seal of Approval" which will link to the portal and/or TNF? So, that way, anyone who stumbles across any TNF-approved site will quickly find all the others .... :D

#9 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 24,282 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 05 September 2002 - 14:59

A thought which just occurred to me - we have several long-running threads like Speed's Ultimate Price and Racing Pseudonyms which, rather than being just indexed, deserve to be sorted out and rearranged in some sort of order so that they can provide the basis of new databases - any volunteers? There are probably yawning gaps in SUP, simply because it's so difficult to navigate.

#10 bira

bira
  • Member

  • 13,352 posts
  • Joined: November 98

Posted 05 September 2002 - 15:08

Racer.Demon this will not be a links directory.

There will be articles, and/or pictures, and/or links.

The issue of links comes to offer an option to those who already laboured on articles elsewhere. For example (and I'm giving a simple one), Don Capps already wrote a very extensive article about Gordon Bennett (the man). Rather than copy and paste it and republish it, he can simply provide the link to it.

This also resolves copyright issues - for example, NY Times has a fantastic article about Watkins Glenn. You can't reproduce this story - not without paying for it - so rather that, you provide a link.

#11 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,705 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 05 September 2002 - 15:45

So a combination of 8W and MRH then :lol:

If that's the scenario I don't think it's wise for me to apply for a position on the Editorial Board. I would be occupying myself with two identical jobs, both vying for the same favours from people, i.e. persuading them to publish their articles on motor racing history on the site I'm part of. Then anything that would be part of the Reference Centre wouldn't go into 8W.

A conflict of interests, so to speak, unless you are willing to make me a generous offer and merge 8W content into the Centre :cool:

I'm interested to know how any of the other current site hosts feel on this issue.

#12 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 05 September 2002 - 16:19

Think about what Bira has said then consider the implications of it. The Reference Centre becomes, in essence, a combination "digital library" and "digital archives" as well as a "journal" of sorts. Although in the early goings the Ref Centre perhaps develops and uses links to existing materials, the real value becomes when we begin to add articles and materials to fill the gaps which exist.

For example: my article on Gordon Bennett would be included in a search for material on: the Gordon Bennett races; the Coupe Internationale; Gordon Bennett the man; or early European racing -- just for starters. In the meanwhile, someone may write a series of articles on each individual event in Coupe Internationale series for the Ref Centre.

From time to time, people have found pictures among their family heirlooms which show racing cars, events, or people involved in racing. These pictures could be placed into the photo collection of the Ref Centre and made available to a wider group of researchers or the merely curious then is the case at this time.

One point that Bira correctly focuses attention is that if something exists, don't re-invent the wheel, place a link to it; if it doesn't exist find someone to provide it.

#13 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,034 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 05 September 2002 - 18:48

Originally posted by Vitesse2



Terribly sorry about this Roger, but I really couldn't resist doing this search :rotfl:


To mention this once is unnecessarily cruel. To mention it twice in a week is going too far. I believe the choice of weapons is mine.


Racer.demon is right that the portal should be up and running within a week or two. Initially it will point mainly to other sites. Content in the Reference Centre itself will inevitably take longer as it requires more work.

He is also right when he says that the Reference centre and 8W will, in a sense, be competing for content. We must decide whether we will just let this happen or whether we will attempt to maintain separate objectives.

Regarding Vitesse's suggestion of an Atlas "Seal of Approval", I think that a link from the portal should indicate exactly that. Users have to be confident that they can trust the integrity, if not the absolute accuracy, of the information contained in, and linked to, the Reference Centre.

I also agree that sorting out some of the long running threads should be one of our priorities.

#14 Leif Snellman

Leif Snellman
  • Member

  • 1,076 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 06 September 2002 - 08:34

Is constructing the "Atlas F1 Motor Racing Reference Centre" in itself now our final aim or is it to be considered as a working platform for an eventual "Hitchhikers Guide CD" in the future?

#15 Udo K.

Udo K.
  • Member

  • 649 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 06 September 2002 - 11:41

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
Is constructing the "Atlas F1 Motor Racing Reference Centre" in itself now our final aim or is it to be considered as a working platform for an eventual "Hitchhikers Guide CD" in the future?


Good question...

#16 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 24,282 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 06 September 2002 - 12:10

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
Is constructing the "Atlas F1 Motor Racing Reference Centre" in itself now our final aim or is it to be considered as a working platform for an eventual "Hitchhikers Guide CD" in the future?


I think this will be a question to be considered by the Editorial Board, once it is formed. I, for one, don't see that a CD or DVD could be produced within the near future - if it is to be done, then it must be done properly, in a structured way. It's no use putting out something part-finished, but equally it must necessarily also still be a "work in progress". As the website develops, so the editors can start to invite/commission work to fill gaps and then at some point they can draw a line in the sand and say "When we reach here we will issue a CD/DVD".

#17 Felix Muelas

Felix Muelas
  • Member

  • 1,187 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 06 September 2002 - 20:02

Originally posted by Vitesse2
...I, for one, don't see that a CD or DVD could be produced within the near future...


I have somehow the sensation that whilst all options are open for the future, this project is still in the first weeks of "pregnancy". Let's handle it with care. We still do not know if we are expecting a boy or a girl so-to-speak, but excited as we are we have already made plans for his "structured" future. Let's see if we can center some points, maybe one at a time:

a) In the "chat" that happened some days ago, and whilst we we approaching the question of web space (how much would be needed, who could provide it, what costs involved etc) needed for the "Georgano XXI" project, Bira announced a solution for that.

Not only a solution for that, actually. Her proposal included a project that both Don and Bira had discussed before, and of which details are to be found at the start of this thread.

Whether that project is or is not related to what my understanding was of the subjects that we were going to discuss remains a mistery to me. You know, English is not my mother tongue, it was late at night and chat is definitely not my territory so I will trust in this respect the opinions of Roger, Richard, Stefan and Wolf. Is this the project that was supposed to take me out of my recently decided sabbatical? :lol:

Because unless I have misunderstood everything, there is no way that this new project will be an autonomous creature, by the time I expect to come back... and please do not read me wrong! Continuing with the "baby" theme I do not think that a couple of fathers and mothers will make a baby grow faster...not in the first year, anyway ;)

So, back to my original question : a) Are we still thinking about a "Georgano XXI" publication?

fm

#18 Hans Etzrodt

Hans Etzrodt
  • Member

  • 3,173 posts
  • Joined: July 00

Posted 06 September 2002 - 22:39

Felix,
I have the feeling that the baby will look not human like but more like an ape. Don't get me wrong here. I find little chimps absolutely cute. :)

#19 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 24,282 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 06 September 2002 - 22:56

You'd be surprised what can be done with genetic modification Hans!

Advertisement

#20 Kuwashima

Kuwashima
  • Member

  • 330 posts
  • Joined: January 00

Posted 06 September 2002 - 23:58

I am a little worried that this portal will be too close in nature to the 'new' 8w, and MRH. I don't believe in stepping on someone else's toes if they have put time and effort into the idea.

Of course, it's none of my business to question what sounds a brilliant idea from Atlas, but what exactly will this new Reference Centre do that 8w doesn't - other than being more centrally connected to the TNF community?

(Initially, 8w was primairily concerned with Grand Prix related material I believe, whereas this Centre will be all-inclusive according to Don. So that's a biiiig difference; but the 'new' 8w is all-inclusive as well AFAIK... :confused: )

#21 Leif Snellman

Leif Snellman
  • Member

  • 1,076 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 07 September 2002 - 09:13

Originally posted by Kuwashima
I am a little worried that this portal will be too close in nature to the 'new' 8w, and MRH. I don't believe in stepping on someone else's toes if they have put time and effort into the idea.

Yes, I think some can find themselves in some kind of crisis here with mixed loyalities. However, I'm confident we can work that out somehow.

#22 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,705 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 07 September 2002 - 09:47

My toes are still in working order but I see that Roger, Kuwashima and Leif (thanks for your support) have picked up on the point I very diplomatically tried to make...;)

And in their niche, Golden Era and F1 Rejects also show an overlap with the proposed Centre, so I see where Leif and Enoch & Jamie are coming from.

Indeed I don't any significant difference between 8W/MRH and the Centre, other than that the Reference Centre will be more professional - hopefully at a level I will never reach nor aim at - and that the editorial and technical chores will be divided among a much larger group of people, which is needed when one wants to attain at least a semi-professional level.

Which is why I wasn't joking when I said that ultimately 8W could be integrated into the Centre - but I won't just give it up, and I'm sure Felix feels the same.

I can fully understand why TNF people would eventually prefer the Centre over 8W to publish their articles - it does seem more logical - but 8W can only survive on its own with a continuing stream of new material. As both the Centre and 8W will be relying on the same authors - you know who they are - we could find ourselves in a Microsoft vs. Netscape battle. Or CART vs IRL. And we all know who won - not the guys who were first but the guys with the biggest marketing power. So let's try and prevent this from happening.

#23 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 24,282 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 07 September 2002 - 11:27

There is a potential conflict of interest, but I think that we'll see natural selection and evolution at work here, just as is happening with historical-based BBs. Here at TNF we are almost all-encompassing, although admittedly with the main emphasis still on GP racing. TrackForum do a great job with CART, USAC and IRL, which are of course their speciality: nevertheless the odd sports car or F1 topic creeps in. TenTenths is rapidly changing direction, with a lot of its emphasis on British and Aussie club racing, plus there's quite a bit of historic content in their Sports Car forum. Motorsport.com tends more towards 70s and later F1.

I know you will probably consider anything which is historically based Mattijs (you've said as much to me in the past), but I don't think that an overview of (say) European Rallycross in the 1970s will fit very well even with the new 8W. Something like that should definitely be hosted in the Research Centre, but the sports car article I've promised you ( :blush: ) could perhaps go with either, although I'd prefer it to be on 8W.

Like Leif, I'm confident we can work this out .... :)

#24 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,705 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 07 September 2002 - 22:18

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Like Leif, I'm confident we can work this out .... :)


Of course you are totally right, Richard.

There will be a place for every initiative, since I have come to know the folks here as people who care for a variety of species - as witnessed by some of the above statements.

Apart from that, it will be humanly impossible to turn the Centre into an all-encompassing venture on motor racing history - although it should try to aim at exactly that. And then there's the fact that although the new 8W has broadened its view it will self-admittedly remain Euro-centric and focused on top-line road racing - still quite narrow in comparison with the goals of our Reference Centre.

The conflict of interest was entirely mine, and mine alone, and stems from my earlier misconception of what the Centre is about. Like I said, I don't mind giving up MRH to create a much better portal within the Centre, teaming up with a group of people to do a better job of it, but when I learned that the Centre would also have its own content it was only logical for me to step back as a volunteer for the Editorial Board - along with 8W that would be two similar jobs, which would only lead to confusion. My offer on helping with the portal still stands though, if Bira and Don are interested.

Finally, Richard, I'm not quite sure whether your Darwinist analogy is the right one! Whenever you allow natural selection to work its evolutionary miracles within the same environment, it's usually Microsoft that wins ;)

#25 Felix Muelas

Felix Muelas
  • Member

  • 1,187 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 07 September 2002 - 22:41

Let me see if I got this right. Overlapping? Not yet, for sure...

The main asset we have here is The Atlas F1 Nostalgia Forum group of threads. Amazing amounts of information, a lot of new things put together, wonderful team effort, an excellent package that needs to be sorted out.

Each one of us, depending on his own memory and with the help of the Search facility will more or less be able to locate information that he might remember being discussed previously. I guess --but cannot be sure-- that the sensation for a newcomer is that there is a world of info in the three years of Forum that might be discovered, but unsure exactly how to do that...reading everything?

Indexing the information already on The Atlas F1 Nostalgia Forum is, in my humble opinion, the first and most important task to undertake. Immediately. Obviously involving the authors in it is the ideal situation (because it could involve revisions) but it can be done without them. It’s the "dirty" part of the work, the one that is time-consuming, that bears very little reward, that cannot be done with a computer program but needs a human brain (apes are supposed to be able to handle figures up to 5, so might be used in early stages, as per Hans´ suggestion) and loads of time.

That part is the one that the majority of us have already done in the last years, for our own sites. So we know what we are talking about, after all. Having the information at hand is nice, but is only the beginning, not the end.

I honestly think that only when we have converted the three years of work into an editable and indexed product we can look forward to see what’s missing, what’s needed from then onwards, and so on. Mind you, that might never happen as we might very well have as many certainties as uncertainties and, aware of our shortages, prudence might take over...

(An example might illustrate my point : I discovered yesterday two amazing colour pictures taken during the Albi 1948 GP meeting. Those prove that 4 Maseratis painted in the Spanish national colours were present at the same time, as they are visible in one of the pictures. Also the other picture proves that Jimmy Piget was right and I was wrong when we did not agree on the identity of the driver "Fábregas". Of course, seeing the pictures leads to the identification of the driver as Salvador -as Jimmy was rightly insisting on-. Plus it will seem that "Escuderia Auto Española" was not the name of the team, after all...a question that will no doubt interest Alessandro Silva, for instance. What do I do with these pictures? Where the hell do I post them? As a separate thread? Don’t we have simply too many separate --and so far unconnected-- threads? )

Respectfully yours,

#26 Felix Muelas

Felix Muelas
  • Member

  • 1,187 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 07 September 2002 - 22:52

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
... it will be humanly impossible to turn the Centre into an all-encompassing venture on motor racing history - although it should try to aim at exactly that.


Aha! Finally I understand it...You see, I was really feeling thick lately... :blush: ...or maybe a bit too realistic for the end-of-the-summer :lol:

Thanks, Mattijs. I can go to sleep now :clap:

PS : What a shame we are not in Goodwood this weekend... :(

#27 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,888 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 08 September 2002 - 22:28

It's amazing how much can happen when I go on holiday for a week. :eek:

If the ambition of this 'thing' remains to document everything that ever happened, then I'm right behind it and my data on F5000 will be made available in part or whole.

Can a voice a few concerns.[list=1]
[*]Competition. To put it at its crudest, if I put all the F5000 data on the 'thing', why would anyone come to my web site any more?
[*]It's impossible. That shouldn't stop us trying but it means we really have to plan out what we're doing. For once, I disagree strongly with Doug. We need a plan for how we get one 'thing' and don't just spiral off into utter chaos.
[/list=1] Allen

#28 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 24,282 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 08 September 2002 - 22:48

Originally posted by Allen Brown
It's amazing how much can happen when I go on holiday for a week. :eek:

Who knows - if we'd all had time for another beer or two down by the cricket field at Goodwood, we might have hatched this all on our own. :lol:

Originally posted by Allen Brown
If the ambition of this 'thing' remains to document everything that ever happened, then I'm right behind it and my data on F5000 will be made available in part or whole.

:up:

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Can a voice a few concerns.[list=1]
[*]Competition. To put it at its crudest, if I put all the F5000 data on the 'thing', why would anyone come to my web site any more?
[*]It's impossible. That shouldn't stop us trying but it means we really have to plan out what we're doing. For once, I disagree strongly with Doug. We need a plan for how we get one 'thing' and don't just spiral off into utter chaos.
[/list=1] Allen

Your site would still get its visitors Allen - that's what the portal idea means. Why reproduce on Atlas what is already there on your pages? The way I see it, someone looking for info on (say) F5000 would roll up at the Centre and interrogate the search engine. If just looking for results then it's easy - the engine directs them to your Atlas-recommended results pages. On the other hand, if they want to know about Alan Rollinson's vineyard, then that would be more appropriately dealt with in a short article within the Centre.

Impossible? Nah .... :lol:

#29 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 09 September 2002 - 00:07

Those who take counsel of their fears and never try, will never know....;)

#30 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,034 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 09 September 2002 - 06:23

Originally posted by Felix Muelas

The main asset we have here is The Atlas F1 Nostalgia Forum group of threads. Amazing amounts of information, a lot of new things put together, wonderful team effort, an excellent package that needs to be sorted out.

Each one of us, depending on his own memory and with the help of the Search facility will more or less be able to locate information that he might remember being discussed previously. I guess --but cannot be sure-- that the sensation for a newcomer is that there is a world of info in the three years of Forum that might be discovered, but unsure exactly how to do that...reading everything?

Indexing the information already on The Atlas F1 Nostalgia Forum is, in my humble opinion, the first and most important task to undertake. Immediately.


I agree. This is going to be a lot of hard work, it is not going to be glamourous, but it is essential. Do we have volunteers?

We also need to appoint the Editorial Board. This is going to be the group which will steer the project and will have the greatest influence over its shape and content. Any volunteers?

If we have substantially more volunteers in the second group than in the first then we have a Problem.


I have the feeling that the baby will look not human like but more like an ape.


Could you explain a little Hans?

#31 quintin cloud

quintin cloud
  • Member

  • 4,601 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 09 September 2002 - 08:05

I have been on a business trip for the best part of a week and half, seeing the "Atlas F1 Motor Racing Reference Centre" thread and the idea's behind it I think it should work quite well. :up: :up: Lets see how things turn out :clap: :smoking:

#32 FEV

FEV
  • Member

  • 909 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 09 September 2002 - 09:54

If I can dare submit you a couple of thoughts… Sorry if I seem over-entusiastic or out of subject on all this, but the way Felix feels about the English language, the late hour our discussion took place and the non-familiarity with the chatroom world is even more true for me, so I maybe did not get it all right….

I agree that the members of the Editorial Board should be designated as soon as possible to keep the momemtum running. I consider myself as a willing contributor to the project, but I would like to know who a scribe like me should submit his part of the work to. Among the regular TNFers making the core of this great place quite a few have the knowledge and abilities to be part of the group taking the decisions. So, for those interested, why not just step out and get the thing started :) ?

Regarding the CD/DVD issue. Rather than considering to publish one definitive CD using the Reference Center’s content, why not use the MRRC as the basis for a periodical (say 6 times a year) publication ? I see TNF as the gathering point for motor racing historians and researchers. So why not consider, very much as it is done in the scientific world, to publish a sort of regular magazine synthetising all the progress made by this wonderful collaboration. A synthesis of the work done here on subjects as the 1939 European Championship really deserve to be published, and along with biographies, race histories, race data, personal souvenirs and essais, etc., we have a lot of material already to do such a publication. Plus, considering the universal and all-inclusive objectives of the Reference Center, I think it is right to say that it will never be totally finished and always upgrading. So I think that the down point of a « definitive » publication is that it gets outdated relatively fast, while a periodical one can always bring updates.

Anyway, I guess we all agree that indexing the threads is one of the absolute priorities. So if nobody more capable than me as the time to do it, I could for instance start indexing the "Speed's Ultimate Price" thread now. All I need is a bit of coaching from the Editorial Board and some precisions on what it precisely wants :) .

Frank

#33 Hans Etzrodt

Hans Etzrodt
  • Member

  • 3,173 posts
  • Joined: July 00

Posted 09 September 2002 - 12:04

Originally posted by Roger Clark
.....Could you explain a little Hans?

It was a remark, which has now become redundant.

AFAICS, there will be no election as we have seen and no strict guidance either as some might expect. It needs the initiative of a portal person. So, please step forward, one of you portal experts, contact Bira with your portal question and get rolling. :)

#34 Stefan Ornerdal

Stefan Ornerdal
  • Member

  • 578 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 09 September 2002 - 12:20

So, how do we get started?

Is it going to be something like this:

A link on every page on my F2 Resgister site to the Reference Center. There one can search for Chevron B17, Brabham BT30, Alan Rollinson etc, and find something like this:

Rollinson, Alan , born 1943, succesful Formula 2, 3 and F5000 driver. One Formula 1 start: British GP 1965 - DNQ. See also TNF thread blah blah blah...
Websites:
Old Racing Cars
Formula 2 Register
Rollinson's vineyard
Touring Car Racing
Colombian Grand Prix
etc
etc

?

Stefan

#35 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,705 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 09 September 2002 - 18:33

Originally posted by FEV
Anyway, I guess we all agree that indexing the threads is one of the absolute priorities. So if nobody more capable than me as the time to do it, I could for instance start indexing the "Speed's Ultimate Price" thread now. All I need is a bit of coaching from the Editorial Board and some precisions on what it precisely wants :) .


And it's not just single threads. For instance, for my recent six-wheeler article on 8W there were six threads wholly or partially covering the issue. It's a swamp out there.

#36 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 24,282 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 09 September 2002 - 21:16

Originally posted by quintin cloud
Lets see how things turn out :clap: :smoking:


And there's the problem! EVERYONE is waiting to "see how things turn out". Until someone grabs hold of this and says "Do this - do that - make this happen", nothing will happen. We need to appoint an editorial board NOW to give direction to FEV and any other volunteers for thread indexing. And that's just for starters. Come on gentlemen (and ladies!) - let's make this happen.

#37 Hans Etzrodt

Hans Etzrodt
  • Member

  • 3,173 posts
  • Joined: July 00

Posted 09 September 2002 - 21:36

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....We need to appoint an editorial board NOW to give direction to FEV and any other volunteers for thread indexing. And that's just for starters. Come on gentlemen (and ladies!) - let's make this happen.

:up: :up: :up:

#38 Udo K.

Udo K.
  • Member

  • 649 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 09 September 2002 - 21:59

Originally posted by Vitesse2
[B]

We need to appoint an editorial board []NOW /B]



Agreed! FIRST thing to do!

After that scribes and contributers will follow, including myself for photos and the one or other story.

#39 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 09 September 2002 - 22:57

Okay, give me some names, guys....

Advertisement

#40 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 10 September 2002 - 00:10

Okay, I'll get the ball rolling......









































I nominate me as the Editor Emeritus...... :rotfl:

#41 Darren Galpin

Darren Galpin
  • Member

  • 2,140 posts
  • Joined: April 00

Posted 10 September 2002 - 07:05

I'm tentitively looking over the parapet and raising my hand as a volunteer. One day I will remember to finish things before volunteering for more..........

#42 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,888 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 10 September 2002 - 07:45

I think this will work best if we have a hierarchy of editors, starting at the top with the Editorial Board and delegating downwards with sub-editors for each section appointing sub-sub-editors for each sub-section and so on until the parcels of work become managable.

I do not have sufficient time to be useful as part of the Editorial Board so I'm afraid I can't volunteer. However, I would like to be involved in the race results effort, perhaps looking into how the results can be searchable across different people websites. I worked on this early last year with the "Scribble, scribble" thread and developed a working solution with is already linking my site to Martin Krejci's. It might be over-technical for some but I did write a contributors' guide and I do believe it would work here too. If it doesn't work out, then I'm not proud and I'll find something simpler.

Allen

#43 Option1

Option1
  • Member

  • 13,256 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 10 September 2002 - 07:52

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
I'm tentitively looking over the parapet and raising my hand as a volunteer. One day I will remember to finish things before volunteering for more..........

Hey hang on their fella, I'm already doing volunteer work for you. :lol:

Actually, if the work I'm doing for Darren doesn't submerge me then I'll quite happily volunteer as a gofer for the projects involved here as well.

Neil

#44 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,888 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 10 September 2002 - 12:25

Don, Bira

We still haven't taken the first step: to appoint the Editorial Board. Can I suggest something that might get us started. Can we create a small, temporary steering group to make the first few appointments as I think to many of us are too shy to put ourselves forward.

I propose that initial group is:
- Don (as "leader" of TNF)
- Bira (as owner of Atlas F1)
- Doug (as he keeps telling us to get on with it)

I hope that group will immediately meet by email and decide who leads the Editorial Board. I hope they will decide that it is Don but it's their decision.

Then Don and the steering group can request the involvement a few people regardless of whether they have volunteered. Roger, Felix, Hans, Richard (Vitesse2), Leif, Darren and Frank have already expressed interest in this subject; Richie also spring to mind; apologies to those others who I've momentarily forgotten. Don, Bira and Doug know all the usual culprits and can decide for themselves.

Many may turn down the request but we should be left with a good Editorial Board. With that decision made, the steering group can get back to their day jobs.

Next step is up to the Editorial Board but I'd suggest deciding major subject areas and then appointing Editors for each area. Maybe a technical group might also be worthwhile to guide us on how to make everything link up in a user-friendly fashion.

That's my proposal. Any comments? A simple show of :up: will suffice.

Allen

#45 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 10 September 2002 - 12:39

Bira and I are still working on some of the basics of the idea and getting the groundwork better defined and laid out. Hopefully after we talk some more I will pass on better guidance and a better idea as to the timeframe and other elements of this that need to be sorted out first.

We are still getting a handle on Phase Zero before we can tackle Phase One. This will all happen, but not instantaneously. :up: :wave:

#46 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,991 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 10 September 2002 - 22:55

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
....One day I will remember to finish things before volunteering for more..........


Wanna bet?

At least not before you're 66 and wondering if you have enough life left to complete the projects on hand!

I would be happy to do some editing, by the way.

#47 Richard Jenkins

Richard Jenkins
  • Member

  • 6,154 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 10 September 2002 - 23:08

Whilst searching under my first name (not for vanity I may add!!! :) - in case anyone has asked a query & I'm unaware of it - I see my name proferred.
I submit an enthusiastic maybe at the moment if it's any help. I can't commit any more at this stage as my (paid) work is so up in the air right now. Added to that, I'm still in the mire of two or three projects, including updating my WATN thread as promised but I can see a definite period of completion by November of everything. :drunk:
I can't imagine how I can possibly help but if someone wants me to contribute in any way, I'd be happy to, time allowing.

(Only problem is I can't get Atlas chat due to a problem with my computer. I daren't try & fix it in case I lose everything mid-update. Would that be a problem?)

#48 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 11 September 2002 - 00:47

Whoa, all you hosses out there, whoa!!!! I say, whoa, goldang, ya, whoa!!!!


Let me sit and stare at the wallpaper in my study and lay out a plan of operation and execution for this thing. I am incrediblely good at winging things, but it usually works best when you have at least a place to start winging it from which is generally agreed upon all concerned.

I need to have time to pull all this information together that is floating around in my head, organize it, structure it, make sure I have it firmly in my mind's eye before I am willing to rush into this. Besides, we simply will not have the technical capability to execute until some time this Winter. The germ of this was discussed over two years ago and again over a year ago. It has been a long time in gestation and waiting a few more weeks will make a difference in a positive sense for this effort.

I want everyone to freeze, write down your Great Thoughts, keep them handy, stand by for The Call. Okay?

Thanks!!!!

#49 Darren Galpin

Darren Galpin
  • Member

  • 2,140 posts
  • Joined: April 00

Posted 11 September 2002 - 07:35

That means that I still have some 39 years of hopeless volunteering for more tasks then, Ray! At least it will be a busy life.......

Thanks for your noble offer of help Ray. You will be contacted shortly.......

#50 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,888 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 11 September 2002 - 07:36

Originally posted by Don Capps
... but it usually works best when you have at least a place to start winging it from which is generally agreed upon all concerned ...

:up: :up: :up: