5 replies to this topic

[VDP]

Just looking back to the Huge Le Mans book, They are talking about the " COUPE RUDGE "
In the first edition in 1923, there was a triennal cup, won in 1925 by Chenard Walker
Was it calculated as the index of performance ?
Why this biennale ended and in which year ?


Robert

[Vitesse2]

Information from Brian Laban's Le Mans book:

The Rudge-Whitworth Triennial Cup was competed for once only (1923-5), but the original intention was that it would be a rolling competition, with a new Triennial starting each year. When Le Mans started, the intention was that it should be for unmodified production cars, with a minimum number of thirty constructed - the original rule said that non-competing examples should also be presented at the circuit at the time of scrutineering for comparison, but that was never enforced. Cars were divided into classes by capacity and a target distance was set for each class, ranging from 920km for cars under 1100cc up to 1600km for cars over 6500cc. Any car which was more than 20% behind target at six hours was eliminated - there were further eliminations at 12 hours (15% behind) and 18 hours (10% behind). All cars which finished and had equalled or exceeded their target distance would become eligible for the second part the following year, when a new rotation would start, thus allowing new competitors to join in.

It is important to realise that in the first three years there was no actual official "winner" of Le Mans, in terms we would understand today ie greatest distance covered. The result, such as it was, was determined by the percentage by which cars completing the 24 hours exceeded their target. In other words an 1100cc car which completed 1012km (110% of target) would be higher up the general classification for the Rudge-Whitworth than a 6500cc+ car which completed 1680km (105% of target).

The first Biennial was started in 1924 and ran in parallel to the first Triennial.

In January 1925 The Autocar attempted to explain:

It is not an easy matter to follow the rules of this event, and in most cases the public simplifies the result, somewhat unscientifically, by looking upon the one having gone the greatest distance as the winner. It is necessary, however, to find a winner of the trophy, and according to the rules which have now been published, this will be done in the following manner for all those having qualified in the first two races. By taking the results obtained in 1923 and 1924, curves will be plotted, the points of which will show identical performances in the different piston displacement classes. The winner of the triennial cup and the holder of the two biennial cups will be the ones whose curve reaches the highest point, as based on effective distance covered."

So that's all clear then

The Biennial was the antecedent of the annual Index of Performance, which started in 1938, but the two ran in parallel for some time, the last Biennial being 1955-56, although Laban's text says it continued until the early 70s

Just to really complicate things, it seems that entries did not have to be in identical cars in the two (or three) years and nor did the drivers have to be the same either!

As examples:

In 1928/9 the cup was won by Barnato/Birkin in a Bentley. In 1929/30 it was won by Barnato/Kidston in a Bentley.

The relevant driver and car pairings:
1928: Barnato/Rubin (Bentley 4.4), Birkin/Chassagne (Bentley 4.4)
1929: Barnato/Birkin (Speed Six), Dunfee/Kidston (4.4)
1930: Barnato/Kidston (Speed Six)

In 1930/1 it was won by Howe/Birkin in an Alfa Romeo 8C - Howe had driven a 6C in 1930, partnered by Callingham.

In 1932/3 it was won by Sommer and Nuvolari's Alfa Romeo - Sommer won the overall race for the second time in 1933, but in 1932 he'd been partnered by Chinetti.

Strangest of all is the 1939/49 Biennial, won by Luigi Chinetti and Lord Selsdon in a Ferrari 166MM. Laban says that 1939 qualifiers were eligible for 1949, but how a Ferrari could win it I'm not entirely clear. Selsdon had finished fourth overall in a Lagonda in 1939, but Chinetti had retired, so Selsdon is presumably the connection!

In later years it was almost always won by a small French car, although Polensky/von Frankenberg did win it in 1954/5 in a Porsche 550.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
the original rule said that non-competing examples should also be presented at the circuit at the time of scrutineering for comparison, but that was never enforced.

Charles Faroux originally proposed that manufacturers should submit ten production models from which the ACO panel would pick the actual two or three entries at their discretion!

Is it possible that the Rudge-Whitworth Coupe Bienniale (despite its name) was in later years awarded to the winner of the index of Performance? All the examples quoted by Vitesse are on a list of Index winners, and I can think of no other explanation for some of the winners of the Coupe. As another example, the Polensky/von Frankenberg Porsche won the Index in 1955, but only two Porsches finished in 1954, and not particularly well either.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Is it possible that the Rudge-Whitworth Coupe Bienniale (despite its name) was in later years awarded to the winner of the index of Performance? All the examples quoted by Vitesse are on a list of Index winners, and I can think of no other explanation for some of the winners of the Coupe. As another example, the Polensky/von Frankenberg Porsche won the Index in 1955, but only two Porsches finished in 1954, and not particularly well either.

You could be right there Roger. From the first post-War race the lists do coincide exactly. However, pre-War, they don't. The IoP winners who also won the Biennial were Minoia/Foresti (1926), Casse/Rousseau (1927 & 1928), Barnato/Birkin (1929), Howe/Birkin (1931), Sommer/Nuvolari (1933), Peacock/Becke (1934), Martin/Brackenbury (1935) and Gordini/Scaron (1939).

And I was wrong about the beginning of the IoP - it started in 1926, according to the results in Laban. I'd orginally looked at the list in King-Farlow.

[VDP]

Thanks but after looking the huge compilation of the book from MOITY & CO? It seems also that the ckassification was also about the intrant, like 1932/1933? was R SOMMER for the both year,
Just supposition . In 1949 the invitation were sent to 13 contenders who's racing in 1939 event.
The winner was L Chinetti/ L Seldom in FERRARI 166 mm the entrant was L Selsdom, despite th non finish in 1939 ?
was it calculated after the war , difference between the minmun distance versus class and the actual finish, could explain the long french succes. I didn't find anymore after 1960

Robert

[Jesper O. Hansen]

Information from Brian Laban's Le Mans book:

The Rudge-Whitworth Triennial Cup was competed for once only (1923-5), but the original intention was that it would be a rolling competition, with a new Triennial starting each year. When Le Mans started, the intention was that it should be for unmodified production cars, with a minimum number of thirty constructed - the original rule said that non-competing examples should also be presented at the circuit at the time of scrutineering for comparison, but that was never enforced. Cars were divided into classes by capacity and a target distance was set for each class, ranging from 920km for cars under 1100cc up to 1600km for cars over 6500cc. Any car which was more than 20% behind target at six hours was eliminated - there were further eliminations at 12 hours (15% behind) and 18 hours (10% behind). All cars which finished and had equalled or exceeded their target distance would become eligible for the second part the following year, when a new rotation would start, thus allowing new competitors to join in.

It is important to realise that in the first three years there was no actual official "winner" of Le Mans, in terms we would understand today ie greatest distance covered. The result, such as it was, was determined by the percentage by which cars completing the 24 hours exceeded their target. In other words an 1100cc car which completed 1012km (110% of target) would be higher up the general classification for the Rudge-Whitworth than a 6500cc+ car which completed 1680km (105% of target).

The first Biennial was started in 1924 and ran in parallel to the first Triennial.

In January 1925 The Autocar attempted to explain:

It is not an easy matter to follow the rules of this event, and in most cases the public simplifies the result, somewhat unscientifically, by looking upon the one having gone the greatest distance as the winner. It is necessary, however, to find a winner of the trophy, and according to the rules which have now been published, this will be done in the following manner for all those having qualified in the first two races. By taking the results obtained in 1923 and 1924, curves will be plotted, the points of which will show identical performances in the different piston displacement classes. The winner of the triennial cup and the holder of the two biennial cups will be the ones whose curve reaches the highest point, as based on effective distance covered."

So that's all clear then

The Biennial was the antecedent of the annual Index of Performance, which started in 1938, but the two ran in parallel for some time, the last Biennial being 1955-56, although Laban's text says it continued until the early 70s

Just to really complicate things, it seems that entries did not have to be in identical cars in the two (or three) years and nor did the drivers have to be the same either!

As examples:

In 1928/9 the cup was won by Barnato/Birkin in a Bentley. In 1929/30 it was won by Barnato/Kidston in a Bentley.

The relevant driver and car pairings:
1928: Barnato/Rubin (Bentley 4.4), Birkin/Chassagne (Bentley 4.4)
1929: Barnato/Birkin (Speed Six), Dunfee/Kidston (4.4)
1930: Barnato/Kidston (Speed Six)

In 1930/1 it was won by Howe/Birkin in an Alfa Romeo 8C - Howe had driven a 6C in 1930, partnered by Callingham.

In 1932/3 it was won by Sommer and Nuvolari's Alfa Romeo - Sommer won the overall race for the second time in 1933, but in 1932 he'd been partnered by Chinetti.

Strangest of all is the 1939/49 Biennial, won by Luigi Chinetti and Lord Selsdon in a Ferrari 166MM. Laban says that 1939 qualifiers were eligible for 1949, but how a Ferrari could win it I'm not entirely clear. Selsdon had finished fourth overall in a Lagonda in 1939, but Chinetti had retired, so Selsdon is presumably the connection!

In later years it was almost always won by a small French car, although Polensky/von Frankenberg did win it in 1954/5 in a Porsche 550.

Is it possible that it was actually the entrant's name that decided who competed for the bi-annual prize? This two-part article interview of Peter Wilson suggest so: http://www.jel450.co...son/wilson.html. Lord Selsdon was the entrant and driver of both the 1939 4th placed Lagonda and the 1949 winning Ferrari. The Polensky/von Frankenberg win of the 1954/1955 bi-annual cup is a bit tricky too, as neither driver finished the 1954 event. But Porsche K.G. as an entrant did, winning the 1500 cc class on both occasions - Johnny Claes and Pierre Stasse doing the driving of the winning 1500 cc car in 1954. It has to be said that I don't know if this is the connection to the Polensky/von Frankenberg win by 1955!

But what decided the winner of the bi-annual cup? Quentin Spurring has the best and most simple explanation I have seen so far:

The distance covered in the second year divided by the distance of the first year.

This calcule comes from Spurring's recent Le Mans 1960-69. Any other suggestions?

Jesper

PS! Some recent heavy use of the 2010 Le Mans Encyclopedia suggest that the binding don't hold up to that kind of use

Edited by Jesper O. Hansen, 02 July 2011 - 17:31.