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Racing and Rallying Connections


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#1 BRG

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 10:18

From Ian McKean's post on the current thread about Colin Vandervell
Patrick Head (the Williams man) then bought the car (this must have been in about 1967).

Now I never knew that Patrick Head had done any rallying! I am warming slightly (but not very much!) to him as a result. Was he just doing clubbie stuff, or was it ever any more serious?

The connections between racing and rallying are many. Amongst drivers, of course, the cross-overs are manifold. Most notable was Vic Elford, but there have been many others. Clark, Hill, Brundle, and Bell all entered the RAC Rally for instance, and rally drivers Rohrl and Munari (and many others) went across to racing at times. Stig Blomqvist and Henri Toivenen both did F3, I believe, and so on.

But there are also all these connections amongst racing team personnel. For instance, Robin Herd took up rallying quite seriously for a while after the March years, using a Mk2 Escort on which he did some quite radical aero work, then a Darrian. Again, he put the Darrian into a wind-tunnel (for the first time ever (Tim Duffee, the designer, had no such resources and is anyway more of an "instinctive" designer) and came up with some fairly radical changes which were taken up for later Darrian cars. Going the other way, both Jean Todt and Dave Richards were top class co-drivers before moving into racing.

Who else has made such a cross-over?

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#2 petefenelon

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 10:26

Originally posted by BRG
Now I never knew that Patrick Head had done any rallying! I am warming slightly (but not very much!) to him as a result. Was he just doing clubbie stuff, or was it ever any more serious?

The connections between racing and rallying are many. Amongst drivers, of course, the cross-overs are manifold. Most notable was Vic Elford, but there have been many others. Clark, Hill, Brundle, and Bell all entered the RAC Rally for instance, and rally drivers Rohrl and Munari (and many others) went across to racing at times. Stig Blomqvist and Henri Toivenen both did F3, I believe, and so on.

But there are also all these connections amongst racing team personnel. For instance, Robin Herd took up rallying quite seriously for a while after the March years, using a Mk2 Escort on which he did some quite radical aero work, then a Darrian. Again, he put the Darrian into a wind-tunnel (for the first time ever (Tim Duffee, the designer, had no such resources and is anyway more of an "instinctive" designer) and came up with some fairly radical changes which were taken up for later Darrian cars. Going the other way, both Jean Todt and Dave Richards were top class co-drivers before moving into racing.

Who else has made such a cross-over?



Herd also had a Metro 6R4 which was finished in Leyton House colours. Lovely looking car.

And what about Stuart Turner -- another top-class co-driver who made a decent career in motorsport management!

There's an article about Toivonen's F3 career in last month's Motor Sport. He was really a bit of a frustrated circuit racer, only seemed to go rallying because it was the family tradition and money to do it was easier to come by in Finland. Which makes one wonder how amazing he would've been if it was his real passion!


pete

#3 BRG

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 11:02

Originally posted by petefenelon
Herd also had a Metro 6R4 which was finished in Leyton House colours. Lovely looking car.

Oh yes, I forgot the Metro! The other two cars that I mentioned were in Leyton House "blue" as well IIRC.

Thinking more about Toivenen reminds me that his brother Harri has combined rallying and racing in sportscars. Another pair of brothers were the Brises - Tony Brise is famously one of Britain's lost F1 stars, whilst his brother Tim went into rallying, actually leading the RAC Rally once in a privately entered car.

Then there was Marc Duez, who started in FFord, before visiting the RAC Rally (where I met him) and taking up rallying, reaching nearly to the highest levels, as well as racing in Gp C. I believe one of his finest achievements was on the Portugal Rally, where he won his class in a Opel Manta after driving "blind" - he never competed there before AND did not arrive in time to do the recce.

#4 Frank de Jong

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 11:10

John Bosch was forced to take up rallying after a nasty accident in F3. Walter Röhrl is another obvious example.

#5 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 11:18

Lucien Bianchi is an obvious one... so nearly the winner of the first London-Sydney... raced in sports cars and GPs.

Stirling Moss won Alpine Cups among other things between drives of BRM V16s and Cooper Altas or HWMs and the like...

If you look at the entry lists for the Targa Florio I think you'll find some good examples too... Sandro Munari, I think, was among them.

#6 BRG

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 11:26

The thread is heading off to be more about drivers, a path that we have trodden before (but no less interesting for all that).

But I was more intrigued about team managers, designers and engineers and so on - the likes of Herd, Head etc - who also had involvements in rallying.

#7 Mark Beckman

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 12:27

Dave Richards - Ari Vatenens navvy, ran the Subaru 555 rally team and now running Jaguar F1 Team.

Howard Marsden rallied in the 60's then ran Ford Australia racing team then Nissan's now back to Ford.

#8 petefenelon

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 12:28

Originally posted by BRG

...both Jean Todt and Dave Richards were top class co-drivers before moving into racing.

Who else has made such a cross-over?


Ove Andersson! (Toyota are doing such an unobtrusively good job of establishing themselves in F1 that one tends to forget him)

pete

#9 petefenelon

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 12:30

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
Dave Richards - Ari Vatenens navvy, ran the Subaru 555 rally team and now running Jaguar F1 Team.


Unless Niki Lauda's made a very surprising move Dave Richards was running BAR last time I looked! :)

Still on rally drivers trying racing, Andrew Cowan had a few goes for Team Lotus - ISTR reading that it really annoyed Jackie Oliver. Chapman had given him a go in a car largely because he was a friend of Jim Clark's, while Oliver was struggling to find the funds to run an F3 car...

Alain Prost did a few french rallies when he was with Renault, IIRC.

pete

#10 Mark Beckman

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 12:48

Originally posted by petefenelon


Unless Niki Lauda's made a very surprising move Dave Richards was running BAR last time I looked! :)


pete


Yeah but you cant blame me, its so hard to see that far down the grid :cat:

#11 dmj

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 13:10

One could remember Fiorios, Cesare and Alessandro... Luca de Montezemolo popped up in another thread as a driver recently but we may wait for confirmation of it. Adrian Newey is well into classic car rallyiing, of course.
Back to drivers, Eric Carlsson drove a F3, IIRC. But surely he and his wife's brother were co-drivers in a long distance rally once - I would really like to compare their times! Jean Ragnotti was one of best all-rounders ever (I'm glad recent article in Motorsport recognized it). List of former GP drivers that drove in Paris-Dakar rally is great, too (Tambay, Regga, Schlesser, Ickx...) Jutte Kleinschmidt drove a Honda S2000 in some German races. Martin Brundle drove a RAC rally, Carlos Reutemann rallied too. Colin McRae surely made some single seater tests, including F1. Now, I would really like to know how good would Gilles Panizzi bi in a F1? And, of course, in smaller countries like Croatia a lot of drivers still compete simoultaneously in circuit races, rallies and hillclimbs - often with same car.

#12 Pete Stowe

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 18:51

On the 1955 RAC Rally, co-driver in DA Hewitt's Jaguar was Bernard C Ecclestone!

#13 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 20:09

Marc Surer also did rallying, and it was a rally crash that ended his career when he lost control of his Ford RS200. Wasn´t Patrick Head in some way involved in the RS200??

#14 jarama

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 20:12

dmj,

besides the Marathon de la Route, data provided by our friend marhal, Luca Cordero di Montezemolo was the co-driver for Christian Rattazzi on the Sanremo Rally '69. They shared a Fiat 124S berlina and finished 7th o/a. Incidentally, Christian is Giovanni Agnelli's nephew.

#15 Pyry L

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 00:53

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Marc Surer also did rallying, and it was a rally crash that ended his career when he lost control of his Ford RS200. Wasn´t Patrick Head in some way involved in the RS200??


All from memory so if I´m wrong someone please correct me: Marc Surer was seriously injured and his co-driver Michael Wyder was killed in a crash on some german rally(Hesse rally?) in 1986. He was driving an RS200, I seem to remember that the Surer accident has come up in at least one thread on TNF before. And conserning Patrick Head, unless I´m mistaken Williams Grand Prix Engineering and Patrick Head were responsible for the design process of the Metro 6R4, Jackie Stewart was involved with the Ford RS200.

#16 Vicuna

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 01:50

Got an idea Derek Warwick did the RAC one year.

#17 mickj

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 04:26

Alaister Caldwell (Cardwell?) a manager at McLaren in the 70's rallies too. He's from NZ. I think I am wrong with his surname. Corrections please.

#18 William Dale Jr

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 05:13

Originally posted by Vicuna
Got an idea Derek Warwick did the RAC one year.


IIRC, he did the RAC in 1991 in a works Subaru Legacy.

#19 Tim Murray

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 05:46

Going back in time, the winner of the first Monte Carlo Rally was Henri Rougier, whose racing career stretched from the 1903 Paris-Madrid to Grand Prix appearances in 1923 driving the strange 'aerodynamic' Voisin. Stirling Moss's Alpine successes have been mentioned, but Mike Hawthorn was also a member of the Sunbeam rally team. The versatile Ken Wharton has come up in at least one previous thread. Then there is Louis Chiron, the only driver to win both the Monaco Grand Prix and the Monte Carlo Rally. AFP Fane, better known as a racing driver, put up the best performance on the 1939 RAC Rally.

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#20 Roger Clark

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 06:49

In 1952, Mercedes-Benz entered a works team on the Monte Carlo Rally, consisting of Caracciola, Lang and Kling.

#21 Vicuna

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 07:18

Caldwell

#22 jarama

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 08:26

Daniele Audetto was another of those co-drivers later famous when managing a team. As a navigator he shared a Porsche 911L with Jovica Palikovic to finish 5th in the 1969 Sanremo.

Speaking of racing car drivers involved in rallying, Lous Rosier won his class in the Monte-Carlo '51 at the wheel of a tiny Renault 4CV.


Carles.

#23 kabouter

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 08:33

Originally posted by William Dale Jr


IIRC, he did the RAC in 1991 in a works Subaru Legacy.

Almost right, it was in 1990. He was 15th overall after day 2 - at least being faster than the fastest Group N car - and crashed out early on day 3.

#24 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 08:38

Carlos Sainz achieved some success in Formula Ford racing before turning his talents to rallying.

#25 dmj

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 09:18

Originally posted by jarama
Daniele Audetto was another of those co-drivers later famous when managing a team. As a navigator he shared a Porsche 911L with Jovica Palikovic to finish 5th in the 1969 Sanremo.

Speaking of racing car drivers involved in rallying, Lous Rosier won his class in the Monte-Carlo '51 at the wheel of a tiny Renault 4CV.


Carles.

Are you sure he co-drive with Palikovic? This link http://www.grandprix...ref-auddan.html states that Audetto was works Lancia co-driver at the time. And I don't suppose Lancia would leave him to concurrent team for Sanremo, of all events... But I can be wrong. I may ask Palikovic when I meet him.
And, jarama, thanks for clarifying Montezemolo case - I was suspicious just because I was totally unaware of that part of his career. :blush:

#26 jarama

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 10:25

dmj,

the data providade is extracted from the french magazine "Sport-Auto" issue April 1969, article on the Rallye di Sanremo.

I'm now working on an International Rallying Database (by the way, enormous task!) and just a few days ago I was shocked seeing Daniele co-driving a Porsche instead of a Lancia. :confused: On the rally repport, there's no explanation on this fact, but then Daniele wasn't still famous.

To my point of view, the only reason can be that these were the good old days ... :cool:

Carles.

#27 Roger Clark

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 14:39

Swedish Formula 3 driver Ronnie Peterson drove a VW1600TI in the 1969 Swedish Rally.

#28 pc13

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 18:02

Portuguese driver Santinho Mendes has been Portuguese Rally Champion, Portuguese Touring Car Champion, Portuguese ATV Champion and Portuguese Autocross Champion.

Ni Amorim has done rallying early in his career. Pedro Chaves was a rally driver from 1998 to 2001 (having driven in a couple of rallyes in 1985).

It's not uncommon for portuguese drivers to try their hands at both racing and rallying.

Paulo C.

#29 Ian McKean

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 18:42

Barrie Williams (did you see him in the Minor 1000 at Goodwood on the box this morning or in real life?) won the 1964 Welsh International in a Mini Cooper 'S' (120 MNP if I recall correctly) and might have got a works drive had he not lost his license at a critical time. So BMC gave the job to Tony Fall.

He must be about 63 now so it was splendid to see him chucking the Minor around like that.

For those who haven't seen Barrie drive, he's the bloke who was followed into a corner by someone who intentionally spun to avoid William's accident. What he didn't know was that Williams always drives like that and did not have the accident!

#30 xjohnnyjaguarx

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Posted 16 September 2002 - 17:35

markku alen did some races with the lancia works team in the late 70's and early 80's
and he drove an alfa romeo in the 1995 helsinki dtm race
and isnt it the same john woodner who drove f5000 in the 70's and also did rally a GRB peugeot
in the 80's and another us rallydriver buffum raced on circuits to if im not mistaken

#31 Ian McKean

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Posted 16 September 2002 - 23:39

Originally posted by BRG
Now I never knew that Patrick Head had done any rallying! I am warming slightly (but not very much!) to him as a result. Was he just doing clubbie stuff, or was it ever any more serious?


I am 99.999% certain that Pat only ever did clubbies (i.e. up to restricted level).

I am not sure he would thank me for this since it's all pretty mundane, but for the sake of historical accuracy, here is some info I can vouch for. Oh, and I warn you that most TNF types more interested in Nuvolari at Lesmo will also find this post pretty boring, since it is just a tale of impecunious clubbies having fun.

Perhaps I should digress to mention that in 1965 Pat and I shared a Buckler Ultralite Mk. IIB and went karting in the 197 Villiers class. We had been at school together until 1964 when he went off to Dartmouth Naval College and I went off to Birmingham University.

Actually, another digression if you will forgive me, James Hunt was another school contemporary, but I don't remember ever saying a word to him at school (or for that matter ever seeing Pat say a word to him either). But then he was in the year behind Pat and Wellington College society was pretty 'stratified'. Actually I was in the year behind Pat as well, but we were in the same Dormitory and got on pretty well once I discovered his dad was Michael Head. There's a story attached to that too but I'll leave it for the moment.

Note that the word Dormitory does NOT mean we all shared some gigantic room. All 50-odd boys in a Dormitory had a separate room or cubicle built with wooden partitions. Dormitories were equivalent to Houses at Wellington.

I suspect James Hunt had absolutely no interest whatsover in motor cars while he was at school otherwise I would probably have been aware of it. I recall James Hunt as a somewhat pale and flimsy looking boy - bit of a weed really. However he filled out a lot later and must have continued growing well after 17, as those of you who saw him on that TV Superstars competition will be aware.

The only time I saw him after we left school (at least I think it was him but if so he had grown a lot and become as tall as me since leaving school) was at Castle Combe. He walked into the gents when I was having a pee. I didn't say anything to him - well I wasn't certain it was him and even if I had been, I hadn't said anything to him while we at College so why start then? A bit of a shame, since I later became very impressed with Hunt's driving and think that even now he is under-rated as WDCs go.

Anyway, after Pat bought himself out of Dartmouth Naval College (to his father's intense annoyance - he had given Pat a Lotus 7 but took it away before Pat could use it and sold it to recoup the money needed to buy Pat out of the Service) Pat joined me at Birmingham University in the Autumn of 1965.

There we met a larger than life character called Andy Dawson. Andy seemed to be full of BS but some of the more outrageous things he said turned out to be true, so after a bit we started to take him more seriously. (I covered this ground in the TNF introduction thread once). It was Andy who got Pat and me interested in rallying.

The sort of outrageous things that Andy used to come out with were things like his father was the only Britisher to ever drive an Auto Union. But it's probably true, knowing Andy as I do now. Andy's dad had been an engineer with Rolls-Royce before the war and apparently they had done some consultancy work for Auto-Union. It was felt that an engineer had to drive it to see what was happening, so Andy's dad got his chance! Andy said his old man admitted to being terrified. When we met him, Andy's father was a director of Perkins Diesel and then became MD of Dowty Turbocraft. I think he may also have been a director at the old Rootes Group.

So it was Andy who got us interested in rallying. I think I shall fast forward a bit here and just list the rallies I know Pat did because I was either with him or on them.

Birmingham University Motor Club, Closed 6/11/1965 - Pat navigated for Andy Dawson in his Chamois.

Oxford University Motor Driver's Club Intervarsity Rally, Restricted 27-8/11/1965 - Pat navigated for Andy in his Chamois.

Peterborough Motor Club Nocturnal Noggin Restricted 27/2/1966 - Pat navigated for me in a Mini. I shouldn't do this (don't suppose Pat will ever read this so I'm probably safe enough) but my notebook of competition results reads,

"Patrick Head navigated for me on this event, which, in comparison with the sort of rally we were used to, was no more than a navigational treasure hunt, which could have been won by granny in an A30 if she had had a good navigator. We finished last of the experts. Moral:- don't have Pat as a navigator."

Note my tendency towards an expanded head! ("... the sort of rally we were used to".) But then the previous weekend I had done my first Motoring News Championship event, with Andy navigating in my Mini 1100.

It must have been after that that Pat did one or two rallies (driving his own Imp) around Bournemouth. Pat got kicked out of Birmingham (as I did) and transferred to an external London degree course at Bournmouth Tech. I think he came close to winning one of them; I knew he was quick (mad) - my only surprise was that he had not written off his car. He also did a few more with Andy I think.

There was also the Ebworth Chase rally that we did about then in his ex-Colin Vandervell ex Tom Trana Volvo PV544. I mentioned this in the Colin Vandervell thread.

Tavern Motor Club Aer Lingus Bristowe 18 Feb 1968 - our first forest stage event, in my Mini 1100. There were some big names on this like Colin Malkin and Terry Hunter. Vandervell and Sharpe were fastest novice on Stage 1 (must have been Colin). We were delayed by a fire on stage 1 but got fastest novice on stages 7 and 9.

Herefordshire Motor Club January Jaunt 11-12/1/1969 - Pat navigated for me in my first event in my Saab V4. This was a 'Closed/co-promoted' event and somewhat surprisingly we came 7th overall. The fog was appalling. I followed one car that thought it had got to a 'T' junction and turned left - into a river. The real 'T' junction was just beyond a ford!

To quote once more from my notebook, (sorry Pat)

"At the fifteenth time control we were lying equal second, and the car ahead of us later went off. However, Patrick's navigation deteriorated after we thought that a loop through a control twice might cost us a fail. On one occasion I had to look inside a telephone kiosk to see where we were!

In the second half, it soon became clear that Pat was not fully plotted and as he would seldom give me directions I was reduced to following others to the finish.

Luckily the fog had made things difficult for other crews as well, and we finished 7th O/A and 5th in class "

Sutton & Cheam Motor Club Sandblaster Rally 29/11/1970 - Pat navigated for me in my Saab V4. This was a very rough stage event (and very wet) held on Army ground. We came 5th and Doug Lockyear's ex-World Cup Saab won it. Amongst the entries was twice British Hot Rod champion George Polley, who came 9th.

This is the rally I always think of when I read that Head and Williams do not make drivers of a fragile temperament feel cosseted (e.g. Frentzen). At the halfway we did not seem to be doing very well (but I thought I had been driving really well). Patrick said in his most serious tone, "We must have a big think about how we can go quicker in the second half." "Big think was one of Patrick's stock expressions in those days".

Privately I thought that there was no way I could possibly drive any faster, but I pretended to participate in this "Big think" discussion. Then we discovered that a couple of stages had been cancelled so our penalties were less than we thought and we were actually 10th at the halfway - not at all bad for a very mildly tuned car with no LSD. Anyway, the "big think" must have worked becuse we pulled up to 5th at the finish. My notes show that we caught at least one car on every afternoon stage.

He also co-drove quite a few times for Andy Dawson in his Singer Chamois, and for me in my Saab V4.

Welsh International May 1971 - Pat was going to service for me in the second half, but I didn't get that far.

Herefordshire Motor Club Welsh Marches (a round of the Motoring News and Escort Mexico Championships) 18-19/3/1972 - I navigated for Pat in his Saab V4 (which he had bought from my father by the way). It was standard apart from Bilsteins. Navigating on competitive road events is damn difficult and I was probably no better at it than Patrick!

So I refer to my notes again,

"I was continually urging Patrick to take things fairly easily, as I expected him to be more concerned with finishing than going flat out. I did not navigate well in the first half but improved in the second half. Therefore we did quite well to finish 37th out of about 120 starters, so justifying our starting position at no. 38.

... This was intended to be a warmup for the Wlsh International. However Pat later decided against doing the Welsh."

By the way, the Innes Ireland Trophy and award was given to the best Herefordshire Motor Club member.

Considering that the car was group 1, and the entry included names like Nigel Rockey, this was a good result. We were 20th on the second selective and 17th on the third selective.

Sporting Car Club of Norfolk Lancia Pointer Midsummer Stages 3/6/1973 - Pat stood (sat) in for my usual navigator on this BTRDA/CCC stage event. We were in my Saab V4, now a bit more highly tuned, although not by any means as hot as I would have liked. We had a couple of top 5 stage times but finally finished 41st out of about 120 after a few incidents and losing 1st, 2nd and reverse gears. The entries included Prince Michael of Kent (who came 73rd).

That was the last event I did with Pat. To summarise, he was a very quick driver. Remember he diced with Mansell for 10 laps in a Mexico invitation race many years ago. He did not do a lot of rally driving and no doubt could have got better, but I did not feel as safe with him as I did with Andy Dawson. This may just have been Andy's greater experience, since as students he could afford to drive more rallies than Pat.

As a road event navigator, Andy was brilliant and Pat and I were just normal people. As a stage event co-driver, I always enjoyed rallying with Pat because he was braver than most if not all my co-drivers and I sure as hell did not want him to think I was lifting off where he wouldn't. His analytical approach was useful (the "big thinks"). So I probably drove faster and better with him in the hot seat than with anyone else.

So, if anyone is still reading this post they probably know more about Pat's rallying than he does, since he will have forgotten most of this!

But may I ask why BRG warms only slightly to Patrick?

#32 MPea3

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Posted 16 September 2002 - 23:49

Originally posted by xjohnnyjaguarx
and isnt it the same john woodner who drove f5000 in the 70's and also did rally a GRB peugeot
in the 80's and another us rallydriver buffum raced on circuits to if im not mistaken


most US rally drivers have some sort of circuit racing experience or schooling.

jon woodner dabbled in a little bit of everything... at the end he ran a peugeot 205T16 group B car in the SCCA pro rally series. i had the chance to take a ride in that car and it was spectacular. he then took up aerobatic flying, which ended his rally days (and his life).

yes, buffum ran some racing i believe. i never rode with him in a proper rally car, but tooling through the mountains of north georgia in a mazda sedan i was always amazed at how he could so effortlessly cruise along on twisty gravel roads at amazing speeds. he was smooth beyond belief.

in the late 80s i had the pleasure of being involved with the organization of the chattahoochee pro rally in atlanta, with mazda as the title rights sponser. the 2nd year they decided to enter one of their own 323 4WD turbos and invited elliot forbes-robinson as a driver. i remember buffum, by that time retired from rallying and running the SCCA rally program, graded EFR as a seed 3 driver, in spite of it being his first ever rally. let's just say he severely overestimated how well EFR would take to rallying. one of the locals running an old RX3 he had built for under $2000 beat him.

peter ferrell (sp?) also ran that rally in a mazda truck provided by mazda, as it was the 1st (i think) rally in which SCCA had their truck series. he was a fairly well known circuit racer at the time. unfortunately, the truck was a throw together effort which when presented to scrutineering, didn't come close to passing. ferrell was of course of the opinion that we shoudl wave the rules for him (including safety rules) because it was a mazda effort and they were the sponser. a huge argument broke out, with threats being made to use his influence with mazda against us. PF earned my disrespect that night. eventually, the truck legitimately passed scrutineering, and he ran.

the millens, rod and steve, are another pair with both rally and race experience. the same day i rode with woodner in his peugeot i rode with rod millen in his 323 4WD turbo. unbelievably fast has was. on that friday night, S2 ran up over a mountain pass on a narrow gravel road with many exposed switchbacks and washed out stream crossings. it was raining at the bottom and snowing at the top, and very foggy. i was running the course opening car that night, and found it rough going. imagine my amazment when millen averaged 47mph over the stage, winning it easily. after the rally, his co-driver told me of how on another stage, running along through the woods with a huge drop off and only the tops of trees to stop a car, he looked over and saw the speedometer over 110, and buried his head in the routebook from then on.

#33 Ian McKean

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Posted 17 September 2002 - 08:52

Originally posted by MPea3


after the rally, his co-driver told me of how on another stage, running along through the woods with a huge drop off and only the tops of trees to stop a car, he looked over and saw the speedometer over 110, and buried his head in the routebook from then on.


Co-drivers should pack a pair of welding goggles IMHO!

Barrie Williams once told me his co-driver was late getting up for the first stage of the Geneva Rally (this must have been in the mid '60's) and they had to grab some local and strap him in. Not sure what he said afterwards, probably "Sacre Bleu" or "Merde".

Barrie was another driver who used to worry me a bit (on the road - I never rallied with him). Not because he wasn't enormously skillful and in control - he was. But he used to cut what I thought were blind corners. Then after about ten such corners, he suddenly wouldn't cut one. And sure enough on that corner there would be a car coming the other way. So presumably he knew better than I what he was doing. Patrick Head also knew Barrie in those days - I remember the three of us went out watching the Gulf London in about 1966 in Barrie's rally Cooper 'S' - and Pat and I used to discuss how Barrie could get away with cutting corners like that.

By the way I've probably had more accidents than most of the people I feel nervous with, so I suppose I ought to stop criticising and shut up. But it's always worse from the hot seat.

#34 BRG

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Posted 17 September 2002 - 12:34

Originally posted by Ian McKean
But may I ask why BRG warms only slightly to Patrick?

Thanks for providing such a full account of Patrick Head's rallying background, Ian. It is fascinating, especially the stuff about Andy Dawson, one of Britain's most under-rated rally drivers!

Some of it even rings bells - I beleive that I was marshalling or spectating at that Sandblaster Rally and, IIRC, I was servicing on the 1973 Midsummer Stages (I seem to remember having to change wheels on the car after a stage that went through a pig-farm - the mud was.......let's say, fragrant!). So I must have seen Patrick's (and indeed yours too, Ian) name but never made a connection - but then, entry lists were often very long in those days and the name Head is not so uncommon.

As for your question, well, I don't know Patrick personally and I am sure that he is a decent chap if you get to know him. It is your own comment "Head and Williams do not make drivers of a fragile temperament feel cosseted (e.g. Frentzen)" that points to why I have not been such a great admirer. I thought he was a briliiant designer and engineer, but has not been such a good team principal. His man-management techniques, to my mind, seem to leave something to be desired. Whilst the "tough-love" may well work with some personalities, I favour a more supportive approach. If a team is paying a driver millions of dollars, it seems to me only sensible to treat them supportively and get the best return for your money, not treat them like a child or a dog that need training. But that's just my opinion and you could well argue that the results at Williams show that he is right, not me.

But I tend to view anyone who was a club-level rally driver, navigator or co-driver as a kindred spirit (or maybe just a fellow-sufferer!) so this information about Patrick makes me feel more kindly towards him. Not indeed that he would probably care, even if he knew!

#35 xjohnnyjaguarx

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Posted 17 September 2002 - 17:26

o yeah bout team managers mercedes frontman norbert haugg did rally in the arctic rally a few years ago and he did some crowd entertaining with a mercedes 450 in a show piece at this yrs deutschland rally
as did opel manager volker strycek

#36 MPea3

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Posted 17 September 2002 - 19:19

how about clay regazzoni...

#37 2F-001

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Posted 17 September 2002 - 19:38

Ian - impecunious clubbie fun or not, I for one enjoyed your posting.

M Pea3 - I guess you may already know this, but Rod Millen ran his Toyota Pike's Peak machine at this year's Goodwood Festival of Speed.

Didn't Gerard Larrousse rally a 911 before he turned to circuit racing?

#38 MPea3

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Posted 17 September 2002 - 20:48

Originally posted by 2F-001
M Pea3 - I guess you may already know this, but Rod Millen ran his Toyota Pike's Peak machine at this year's Goodwood Festival of Speed.


didn't know that. being from the wrong side of the pond and also being WAY too consumed with my job i miss a lot. i'm sure he could put on a very good show though.

also, didn;t r millen run an RX7 in one of the RAC rallies back in the late 80s?

#39 2F-001

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Posted 17 September 2002 - 21:11

Originally posted by MPea3


...i'm sure he could put on a very good show though.


Mr Millen was very, very fast and hugely spectacular. The fastest officially timed run, I think. (Alan McNish went quicker in the current Toyota F1, but he was just supposed to be doing a 'demonstration' run).
Millen was an extremely popular competitor at Goodwood and, I'm sure, earned many new admirers that weekend.

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#40 Doug Nye

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Posted 17 September 2002 - 21:44

Gerard Larrousse was fantastically effective and successful as a rally driver - Vic Elford style - before turning to circuit racing. Did we recall already that the Rootes Group Sunbeam team of the early 1950s included Hawthorn, Scott-Brown, Ivor Bueb and Peter Collins in addition to Stirling Moss, and that Graham Hill rallied a Sunbeam Rapier in the 1962 Monte Carlo event, as the £75 fee-earning foreword to his first World Champion year...

DCN

#41 jarama

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Posted 17 September 2002 - 22:43

Another strong connection is that of Donald Mitchell Healey, one of the very succesful rally drivers of the 30es (Monte-Carlo, Alpine & RAC Rallyes spring to my mind), then racing driver (Mille Miglia), engineer-designer (working for Triumph), speed records driver IIRC, constructor on his own. A great man in motorsport. :clap:

Carles.

#42 Pete Stowe

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 20:39

Originally posted by Ian McKean

Perhaps I should digress to mention that in 1965 Pat and I shared a Buckler Ultralite Mk. IIB and went karting in the 197 Villiers class. We had been at school together until 1964 when he went off to Dartmouth Naval College and I went off to Birmingham University

Ian, OT, Did you & Pat ever race your kart at Castle Combe?

and regarding James Hunt

The only time I saw him after we left school (at least I think it was him but if so he had grown a lot and become as tall as me since leaving school) was at Castle Combe.

presumably this was before Hunt began racing himself and went along with Chris & Simon Ridge with Simons racing Mini? Any idea which meeting this was, possibly the Hagley National on 20 Aug 1966?
and thanks for the post, fascinating stuff, I enjoyed it too :up:

#43 TT6

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Posted 19 September 2002 - 14:00

Jean Todt - Iheard in on TV (if didn't got it wrong) - used to co-pilot Hannu Mikkola in the seventies.

#44 Ian McKean

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Posted 22 September 2002 - 22:15

Originally posted by Roger Clark
In 1952, Mercedes-Benz entered a works team on the Monte Carlo Rally, consisting of Caracciola, Lang and Kling.


How did they do?

PS

And how did Ronnie Peterson do in the VW1600TI in the 1969 Swedish Rally?

#45 Ian McKean

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Posted 22 September 2002 - 22:30

Originally posted by Pyry L


...And conserning Patrick Head, unless I´m mistaken Williams Grand Prix Engineering and Patrick Head were responsible for the design process of the Metro 6R4...


There is an example of the Metro 6R4 in the Willliams museum and Patrick made the point that the Metro 6R4 was commissioned and developed back in, I think 1981, but they (Austin Rover Group) sat on it till 1984. Surely it would have been more successful had it appeared on time.

#46 Ian McKean

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Posted 22 September 2002 - 22:35

Originally posted by pc13
Portuguese driver Santinho Mendes has been Portuguese Rally Champion, Portuguese Touring Car Champion, Portuguese ATV Champion and Portuguese Autocross Champion.

Ni Amorim has done rallying early in his career. Pedro Chaves was a rally driver from 1998 to 2001 (having driven in a couple of rallyes in 1985).

It's not uncommon for portuguese drivers to try their hands at both racing and rallying.

Paulo C.


Talking of Autocross, the first time I saw Win Percy racing was in a 1650 cc Ford Anglia in an Autocross meeting. He was superb in that Anglia! Must have been in about 1968.

#47 jarama

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Posted 22 September 2002 - 22:43

Originally posted by Ian McKean


How did they do?


They won the Team's Prize, though none of them finished into the top 6.

Carles.

#48 Ian McKean

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Posted 26 September 2002 - 09:03

Originally posted by BRG
Thanks for providing such a full account of Patrick Head's rallying background, Ian. It is fascinating, especially the stuff about Andy Dawson, one of Britain's most under-rated rally drivers!


I managed to catch up with Andy a few days ago after a gap of about 14 years. He was very difficult to track down. Eventually I got a number for him from someone else I had not seen for a long time - in this case 28 years - John Horton, who used to sell me tyres and once navigated for me on the Tour of Eppynt.

I had organised a drive for a friend of mine, Ivan Strickland (who is an ex-karter), in a Toyota Hiace van on the Fleet World / RAC MPG Mileage Marathon. Ivan needed a navigator and since I had just caught up with John Horton while searching for Andy, it occurred to me to ask John to navigate for Ivan. John hadn't rallied for 20 years but agreed readily enough.

Then Ivan dropped out (this was about 2 days before the event) so I asked Andy if he would do it with John Horton. I rather expected Andy to turn his nose up at driving a Toyota van on an economy driving competition, but he didn't! John Horton offered to step down if Andy preferred to bring along Kevin Gormley or someone he was used to, even though John and Andy had known each other for about 30 years. Since John has navigated for John Taylor, Jimmy McRae, Russell Brookes and Billy Coleman, I thought this was being unduly modest!

Anyway, the two old warhorses teamed up together and both showed how professional and competitive they still are, even on an event like this; John reading the maps to advise Andy on where he would be able to freewheel etc, and Andy freewheeling down the hills leaving rubber on the tarmac! And refusing to leave the vehicle until he had personally seen the final fuel brimming and measuring done, however many hours it meant waiting.

By the way, I did tell a story or two about Andy in the original TNF Introductions thread, but this seems to have disappeared.

Originally posted by BRG
Some of it even rings bells - I believe that I was marshalling or spectating at that Sandblaster Rally and, IIRC, I was servicing on the 1973 Midsummer Stages (I seem to remember having to change wheels on the car after a stage that went through a pig-farm - the mud was.......let's say, fragrant!). So I must have seen Patrick's (and indeed yours too, Ian) name but never made a connection - but then, entry lists were often very long in those days and the name Head is not so uncommon.



The Sandblaster was the wettest rally I ever did. Some of the stages were like driving down rivers and lots of cars drowned with wet ignition or just got stuck in the mud.

I think my Saab was multi-coloured on the Midsummer Stages. It was built from a two-stroke 1964 shell with a V4 engine floor panel welded in, and most of the bolt-on body panels were from different cars and were different colours. Perhaps this might jog your memory? Later, when I could afford some paint and got a round tuit (that essential component that usually eludes me), it became white and blue, not unlike the Saab Finland team colours.

And who were you servicing for?

#49 BRG

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Posted 26 September 2002 - 09:30

Originally posted by Ian McKean
And who were you servicing for?

A guy called Dave Ewles, inevitably in an Escort RS1600. Dave was a very quick driver in the 70s but then gave up driving and went to work for TTE in Cologne. He is now with Prodrive working on their Group N customer cars, I believe, although I have not seen him for years.

#50 Ian McKean

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Posted 26 September 2002 - 09:46

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Gerard Larrousse was fantastically effective and successful as a rally driver - Vic Elford style - before turning to circuit racing.


I think Gerard Larrousse made his name on those tarmac French rallies driving Alpines, pretty much like road races. But I was spectating at Speech House in the Forest of Dean when he drove a 911 on the RAC in around about 1972 I think. Unseen forests are always a culture shock to people used to tarmac rallies and practising, and predictably enough he struggled for most of the event.

Most people used to pacenotes and tarmac could never adapt to unseen forests (and how I wish we still had unseen forests in the WRC today). But Larrouse suddenly cracked it on the last day and set a string of fastest stage times, including that Speech House stage, where he was superb on the fast right hand corner where I was watching.