41 replies to this topic

[LOLA-Christian]

Hi all, anyone got any ideas about this picture?

I must confess that I do not fully understand what it is.
The text describe it as a
"-94 F135: eperimental engine, boxer 12, 4608 cc, 415 hk @ 7500 rpm"
Is it really a boxer engine?

Another one:


The text: "-94 F134: experimental engine, straight 3, 1346.6 cc, 130 hk @ 5000 rpm"
I think it is a 2-stroke, with camshaft actuated exhaust valves.

What do you think?

[desmo]

Looks like a boxer to me, not a racing engine judging by the toothed belt timing drive, and is that an axial supe? Perhaps an aircraft engine?

That's a good guess on the odd triple. Wonder what it was supposed to power?

For those of us who aren't lucky enough to visit the Galleria in Maranello here's more photos from the same site to peruse. Lots of fascinating stuff no doubt like F1 engines, chassis and transmissions- even a single cylinder F1 development engine and much prettier than the Asiatech too.

[CFD Dude]

I don't think that the 'boxer' engine has a supercharger on it, althought I must admit that's what I took it for to begin with. What makes me think it's not a supercharger is that there is no visible way for the compressed air to go from the supercharger to the intake ports.

The caption calls it a 12 cylinder engine, but looking at it I think it looks more like a 6 cylinder. There are only six round intake ports on the top of each head, which for a 4 valve/cylinder engine suggests only 3 cylinders on each bank. Also, going from the heads up to the top sprocket to looks like the outline of waterjacket for three cylinders not six. What this engine might be is a 'diamond' 12, the top and bottom gears representing crankshafts, and two cylinders utilizing a single combustion chamber in the head like this:

...C
../
H o H
.. /
...C


Where 'C' are the crankshafts, 'H' the heads, and please ignore the periods. It would make for a really compact 12 cylinder engine, but getting enough oil to the top crankshaft would probably be a nightmare.

As for the second engine... Ya got me on that one!

[AdamLarnachJr]

Definently a 6 cylinder boxer engine, couldn't be supercharged because of the composite style intake. Its clearly for an automotive application, look at the bellhousing, what else could that be used on?

The 3 cylinder looks like a well designed building:)

Very cool stuff... THANKS!

[12.9:1]

Adam, the little plaque in front of the motor of mystery,"4608cc FLAT 12"
I really do mean motor of mystery, it seems that two cyl. share one combustion-chamber !
not that I believe that.
But think two cranks

p.s. try counting spark plugs
.

[desmo]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
I mentioned a twin crankshaft, twin pinned single piston somewhere else that a few people about the place are trying out and I cant find it on the net so I made a .gif, my very first !

Advantages are mainly that the conrod leverage on the crank is dramatically improved during the power stroke (depending on the crankshaft positioning you could nessessarily obtain the ideal 90 degrees at peak pressure) and no side thrust on the bore wall.

Piston weight isn't increased by the extra pin because no piston skirt is required at all which also means much shorter bore/motor.

Vibration would have to be excellent with the cranks rotating oposite to each other.

Disadvantages are obvious, 2 darn cranks !!

Not to mention the coupling gears, 2 conrods, wide crankcases and higher production costs.

Conrods and cranks can be much lighter individually but of course must retain the same stroke measurement, not that the piston will actually travel that far whci poses the question if a motor was ever used in competition, would you measure the crankshaft stroke or the piston travel

I read an article showing one Guys 500cc single engine and he was obtaining 85 hp with fantastic torque figures.

I beleive I have that magazine around somewhere but cant lay my hand on it at the moment.

At TDC you can see that the rods have gone past cranks true TDC's.


Halfway down the bore in this 'perfect world' example, the rods are 90 degrees to the crankshaft applying ideal downward pressure to the crankshaft.




Dont forget, this is my very first animation !!

This fits. "Cept for the number of plugs.

[12.9:1]

I've Got It ! !

They mix up the plaques !


.

[12.9:1]

This is a real find for me, as this was my favoite (conceptually) method of variabl- valve lift/timing
See how the lobes are ground to increase in section from right to left, also they are twisted !
So the entire cam moves to the right, in order to increase lift, duration,individual and relative timing !
Years ago I read that Fiat was developing the system, I believe their patent was on a special rocking top for the tappet cup, you can see the anti rotation finger, just visible.
It had seemed to me that a rocker or finger follower could work as well.



I have to admit I just love this stuff !

Just found this (I was't even looking)

[desmo]

Damn, I was going to post that photo (a larger version, anyway!) Beat me to it.

[MRC]

Maybe I am missing something but the engine in the top picture appears to have three coils per bank, and thus does appear to be a flat-6. I think it's a twin crank also. I think the tube on the top exiting out of the rear, is possibly a scavenging oil line.

Am I seeing intake ports on both sides of the 2stroke engine? Makes sense to promote upward scavenging. The cast in bracket for the trigger pickup is a nice touch.

[AdamLarnachJr]

This is what I first saw when looking at it...



But then after further observation, I see this...


Two 120º V6 crankshafts, each with its own chamber and camshaft, like a dual V6 SOHC engine... but how do you explain the only 6 spark plugs?

[Ferrari FX]

Gawd, now I'm REALLY excited to visit the Galleria Ferrari next Spring. You guys just wait for the pictures!

Is it me or that I-3 really tall?

[MRC]

I am starting to think that it is a 12 cylinder but really with only six combustion chambers. Would give it a fairly nice triangular (not folded up) combustion chamber. I do think you could get enough CR out of it, too, even with that configuration. I think the ports that we are seeing are the intake ports and it looks like they have o-ring grooves. On the left bank, I believe I can see one stud sticking up that would be for the exhaust manifold. If the top and bottom gears apply to the cranks then they are rotating in opposite directions, and they could come to TDC at the same time. Except for the issue of only three coils per bank, I could see it being a twelve combustion chamber engine, if the combustion chambers were skewed a bit, but I don't think so. So 12cylinder, 6 combustion chamber, as it looks to me. Thanks for the pictures.

[12.9:1]

MRC, assuming the 2stroke is a research engine, yes why not cast different style ports.

Adam, It's a Mystery!, and besides, the cleaning woman was dusting under some those old lumps, - got'em mixed up !

desmo, I even had time to crop it down to size, perhaps some time off.... a little rest you'll be like new!


.

[MRC]

12.9:1, I figured that if they are using poppet valves for the exhaust valves (somewhat like a marin diesel 2 stroke) then maybe they might have to employ a scavenging strategy similiar to them. Although it is odd that they wouldn't have any manifolding attached to it, if that is the case.

[12.9:1]

I see it as an alternate induction path, it would probably be blocked off wen the starboard intake was used.
I like the poppet valve 2st a lot, Garrett has developed an electric-motor assisted turbo/alternator, start up (scavenge) on battery power then normal operation ex-driven turbo, that then charges the battery, + extra boost at low throttle/rpm.

.

[dustee rubba]

i this is a twin crank enine then how do you explain the different spur gear sizes?
are they indeed different sizes?
maybe the cranks are connected by gears on the other side?
this could be proved if you guys can find the pumps and stuff (i cant) maybe the gears we see drive the pumps

also, where do you think that they plan to screw the gearbox in? it look like they plan to put it at the bottom by the look of the cast fan thingy. But surely it would be a better idea to put the gearbox on a centre gear to put the engine lower?? would this be possible?
if this is a twin crank then where would the exhaust go, on top or bottom? perhaps the black pipe thing at the back is the fuel injection line, this would put the exhaust on bottom.



im contemplating flying to italy to steal this motor,
the problem is i have no idea what to do with it

[Ferrari FX]

I would tend to believe that it is a twin crank. Perhaps it is similiar to 2 VR-6s to explain the missing cylinders?

[Ferrari FX]

Originally posted by dustee rubba
i this is a twin crank enine then how do you explain the different spur gear sizes?
are they indeed different sizes?

I do believe that is to make em spin in the same direction at the flywheel.

[AdamLarnachJr]

I wonder if Ferrari simply "casted" these things to put other manufactuers in some type of suicidal limbo while Ferrari worked on their other more important projects... its happened before.

[Mark Beckman]

Are you Guys blind !

This is the first time I have seen this but I have drawn the concept on paper many times.

Its a 12 Cly "Diamond" engine (my name).

It certainly has 2 cranks but you have to imagine a V6 turned upside down and put on top of another V6 using common combustion chambers.

The extra idle gear is there for cranks to turn opposite direction for increase in torque, balance and handling for sure.

Wild guess would be that Monaco GP is what this motor was played around for, certainly not enough valve area for HP other GP's.

As for the 3 cly motor, I'm pretty sure its a piston/crankcase supercharged 4 stroke 2 valve.

If it is and it was 1994 its pretty dissapointing and very crude actually.

Wow I love this stuff, I'm in heaven !

[Mark Beckman]

Oh I just saw CRC Dude already nominated a "Diamond" engine

[ChristianT]

I may be missing the point here but it looks like a 12 cyl engine to me with a single crank. The "3 cylinder water jacket" is the inlet manifold from what I presume is a supercharger (though power seems a bit low depending on date) or possibly just an air filter. Then we seem to have another manifold to take carburettors, looking just about ideal for 3 twin webbers. The crank is in the crntre, and the exhaust manifold is underneath, tucked, as usual, between the exhaust cam bank and the crank. I wouldn't be surprised if the casting on the left belongs to this engine - just a straighforward boxer, I'm afraid, no mystery. Sorry.

[MRC]

M. Beckman, If the 3cylinder was a 4stroke the cam pulley would be twice the diameter of the crankshaft pulley. The appear to be the same size, to me. Same diameter makes it a 2 stroke.

I do agree that the other engine is a 12cylinder using 6 combustion chambers.

Dustee rubba, if you look at the relative sizes of the spur gears at the top and bottom, assume they are the same diameter, they will turn in opposite and equal rpm regardless of the sizes of the other spur gears. Also headers on bottom, intake manifold on top.

[12.9:1]

Christian T, have you counted the sparkplugs ?


.

[MRC]

12.9:1, I don't think he has.

[CFD Dude]

Oh I just saw CRC Dude already nominated a "Diamond" engine

Hey, that's CFD Dude!

I guess this is just proof that great minds think alike.

[AdamLarnachJr]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
Are you Guys blind !

I dunno... can you see inside of it?

Just joking... anyway, what kind of combustion chambers does this thing have? I assume its the standard clover style but with a twist, no? How could you get it so it fills both cylinders, even though both cylinders are completly oppisite of each other?

What is the advantage of even building an engine like this?

[12.9:1]

Hopefully someone will discover the actual specification of our cranky frend, but until then........

I've been trying to guestimate the diameter of the intake? ports, looking at the cut-off plug wires, and assuming they are jumbo size - 10mm, then the port would be about 35mm across.
SO then if two cylinders breath simultaneously through the same two ports........766cc, two 30ish-mm intake valves ?

Not a deep breather.


Also look again, at the Variable-valve Ferrari post above, I've added an illustration


.

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by MRC
M. Beckman, If the 3cylinder was a 4stroke the cam pulley would be twice the diameter of the crankshaft pulley. The appear to be the same size, to me. Same diameter makes it a 2 stroke.

Ahh I hate it when someone trumps me with facts

I was busy looking hard at the extra ports on the 'other' said of the crankcases which now are a mystery.

I dont get it though, why a camshaft, 2 strokes were capable of getting more HP than that in 1994 with just ports.

[AdamLarnachJr]

It could be Ferrari's version of the "power valve" for the exhaust. I know many 2 stroke motorcycles use this, they are a pain in the a$$ if you ask me. Anyway, most are driven off a small pin attached to a gear in line with the crankshaft, it seems they made it much simpler and used a beld drive.

Much easier if you ask me, the plastic clips and paper clip size rod they use on most motorcylce 2 strokes is ridiculous.

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by AdamLarnachJr
It could be Ferrari's version of the "power valve" for the exhaust. I know many 2 stroke motorcycles use this, they are a pain in the a$$ if you ask me. Anyway, most are driven off a small pin attached to a gear in line with the crankshaft, it seems they made it much simpler and used a beld drive.

Much easier if you ask me, the plastic clips and paper clip size rod they use on most motorcylce 2 strokes is ridiculous.

Adam those ridiculous plastic clips and paper clip size rods have been running simply and reliably in millions of motorcycles for 20 years now in engines producing more specific power output than any thing else in production ie 300-400 hp per litre.

The rod themselves only open or close the valve once at a specific rpm point, they dont operate constantly as the engine cycles.

This Ferrari system is bound by consistant valve timing, major loss of HP operating the valve train, weight and height as well as needing lubrication of some form to the camshaft, although it may just lay in a wet bath.

A simple guillotine "Power Valve" above the exhaust port as the bulk of 2 strokes have been for the last 20 years has little weight, nothing for a cylinder head other than a simple cover/combustion chamber, no drive power losses and the timing can be servo operated by electronic black box for variable timing on the go or preset mechanical timing which only takes minutes to adjust.

The exhaust "Power Valve" is simply the 2nd greatest acheivment for 2 strokes only behind the expansion chamber.

If I stuck 3 x 450cc 1994 readily available production motocross 2 strokes on a common crankcase, I would expect to acheive around 180 HP against 130 for the Ferrari and only 2/3rds the weight and size.

Ferrari must know this, there must be something more to this engine than what we are seeing.

[12.9:1]

Mark B, In the early 90s the, - then new direct electronic fuel injection promised clean, compact, powerful, and packageable, engines for a new millennium ! Missing from the picture is the external scavenging pump (super charger) but not in a 'super'mode.
All the majors had them in development, obviously they failed.

As for those extra ports, check back about 20 - 25 posts


.

[Ferrari FX]

Why not go to the basics, maybe its a F12 chopped?

[AdamLarnachJr]

Mark... all of my Suzuki engines... a 586cc, two 250cc 2 strokes have seem to be eaten alive... I don't know what causes it, but I hate replacing them, especially because they hide in a small 1" x 0.5" cover that you can barely get the tools into, plus they needed to be timed as well with equipment I don't have, there is more money to the dealership.

[dustee rubba]

the gears on the front look like different sizes too me
can anyone count the teeth??
if they are different sizes (that is the gears that run the cranks) then the cranks do not spin at the same speed this disproves the twin crank theory(does it??)

[MRC]

Make yourself a diagram of four gears in a row, like the engine we are discussing. Make the two middle gear any size that you want, but make the outside gears equal in diameter . So, do the outside gears rotate at the same speed and in opposite directions?

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by dustee rubba
the gears on the front look like different sizes too me
can anyone count the teeth??
if they are different sizes (that is the gears that run the cranks) then the cranks do not spin at the same speed this disproves the twin crank theory(does it??)

Its an optical illusion bought about by the differing machine work on the important gears.

The 3 gears that matter, ie; the 2 crankshaft gears and the cambelt gear are the same size only the transfer/idler/intermediate gear has a smaller diameter which isnt relevant, its only function is to change the direction of rotation though it may be used as an oil pump drive.

Adam - What specific models and whats being eaten alive ?

[AdamLarnachJr]

Suzuki Quadzilla and RM models... what holds the actual rotating cylinder "valve" and the gear together is a plastic clip.

[dustee rubba]

my apologies guys
ican see it now

is there any way to get in contact with the ferrari guys??
maybe we should just ask em

or would there be no fun in that

[Mark Beckman]

Thats correct Dustee, we wouldnt want the truth to ruin our good stories !

Adam I will find out froma Mate of mine whos owns a Suzuki dealership soon for you.

[AdamLarnachJr]

Mark that would be great. We got rid of the main problem, the Quadzilla, now I just use of the RM250... its a 98 model. No worries that much though, I ride them occasionally from now on, and if I do have a problem with them, I'll take it to the local dealership... any info would be appreciated though.