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The most 'nobbled' driver?


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#1 Anorak Man

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 03:27

Many would say the Ardmore sensation, young Chris Amon.

But off the top of mi' bonce, I'd say Mr. Herbert

Not only was he well-nobbled by Flav to keep MS at Benetton, but when he moved to Sauber, the mechanics used to toss spanners into the cockpit, just to wind Our Johnny up.

Who else has been stuffed like this?

Surely Snr. Enzo would never resort to such tactics would he?

Who is the most NOBBLED driver?

AM

PS. Was sure I posted this yesterday, but it musta been nobbled by the BB gremlins! :)

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#2 Mark Beckman

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 03:29

You did post it yesterday and I said Ricardo Patrese at Williams with Nigel number 1.

#3 Anorak Man

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 03:33

By a stunning coincidence, that's just what I was thinking about AM.

How about the Irish Ferrari driver who was challenging for their first WDC in 19 years? Much to the chagrin of his legendary German teammate sidelined with a bent leg-end.

When he pulled into the pit for a routine tyre change and refuelinhg his team turned him around in a remarkably kwick time, except they only gave him three wheels!

End of WDC hopes for Yer'Man.

Well-nobbled I reckon.


Got any more?

AM

#4 Anorak Man

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 03:37

Our Mark Tapped:

You did post it yesterday and I said Ricardo Patrese at Williams with Nigel number 1.


So I've been nobbled already ... humph!

I'm intrigued by your suggestion Mark, can you fill me in with some details?

Not the old, 'his car's quicker than mine, so change the numbers overnight' trick, by any chance?

I seem to recall Alain pulling that one.

#5 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 03:39

Nige got the three-wheel treatment once...

Was it Hungary?

#6 Anorak Man

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 03:55

Our Ray suggested:

Nige got the three-wheel treatment once...

Was it Hungary?


I musta missed that one, but if Mr. Piquet was his team mate at the time, I'd bet he had something to do with it.

Noige got an attack of Sao Paulo Squits once, and plunged into the Motorhome small-room in haste only to discover that Nelson had swiped ALL the toilet paper!

Well nobbled!

#7 mikedeering

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 09:22

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
You did post it yesterday and I said Ricardo Patrese at Williams with Nigel number 1.


Quoting a recent AtlasF1 article:

"Patrese was convinced Mansell's car had an advantage so they swapped chassis for qualifying. Within 3 laps, Mansell posted a time 1.888 seconds quicker than his teammate…"

Aside from France 92, on what other occasions was Patrese "hobbled"?

#8 mikedeering

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 09:25

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Nige got the three-wheel treatment once...

Was it Hungary?


Nige was KING of the three wheel experience

He lost a wheel nut in Hungary 1987 with about 5 laps to go, gifting victory to his team mate which ultimately decided the WDC.

His Williams mechanics then contrived to send him out without a wheel nut at Estoril in 1991, resulting in him stopping halfway down the pitlane. His mechanics looking to attached the required nut chased after him, and he was disqualified a few laps later as they had worked on the car outside of their pit area.

#9 petefenelon

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 09:32

Originally posted by Anorak Man
Many would say the Ardmore sensation, young Chris Amon.

But off the top of mi' bonce, I'd say Mr. Herbert

Not only was he well-nobbled by Flav to keep MS at Benetton, but when he moved to Sauber, the mechanics used to toss spanners into the cockpit, just to wind Our Johnny up.

Who else has been stuffed like this?

Surely Snr. Enzo would never resort to such tactics would he?

Who is the most NOBBLED driver?

AM

PS. Was sure I posted this yesterday, but it musta been nobbled by the BB gremlins! :)


How about Lella Lombardi being given a broken chassis for most of a season? I'm not saying she would've been a race winner in a car without a cracked rear bulkhead but maybe she would've scored more than half a point...?


pete

#10 Anorak Man

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Posted 19 September 2002 - 03:30

Conjecture, but nonetheless worthy of mentioning because of the integrity of Mika Hakkinen.

He was leading comfortably, cruising to yet another Big Mac win during their period of domination, but unaccountably lost power as he drove past the pits, and his engine died from an 'electrical problem'.

Fair do's, electrics fail don't they Colonel?
But it was Mika's cryptic post-race comment that raises suspicion that he was nobbled.

"It was as if somebody just threw a switch as I passed the pits." He said glancing sideways.

Possible?

AM

#11 Mark Beckman

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Posted 19 September 2002 - 04:07

Originally posted by mikedeering


Quoting a recent AtlasF1 article:

"Patrese was convinced Mansell's car had an advantage so they swapped chassis for qualifying. Within 3 laps, Mansell posted a time 1.888 seconds quicker than his teammate…"

Aside from France 92, on what other occasions was Patrese "hobbled"?


This I dont doubt.

I may not have gotten the full gist of the thread as I was more refering to the overall attention within a team to thier various Drivers over the course of a season, not to particular events.

#12 Anorak Man

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Posted 20 September 2002 - 02:36

Pete offered:

How about Lella Lombardi being given a broken chassis for most of a season? I'm not saying she would've been a race winner in a car without a cracked rear bulkhead but maybe she would've scored more than half a point...?

Ouch! That'll teach her to buy from a dodgy 2nd-hand car salesman by the name of 'Arfa' Daley.

'Bootiful mota Lel, Dave Purley ordered it after his Gold Cup win, but had to let it go due to his accident. Kwality mota Lel. Brand new remoulds."

Musta been fun trying to set the thing up eh? 'Variable Geometry' takes on new meaning.

AM

#13 Anorak Man

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Posted 20 September 2002 - 02:36

Readers of Dick Francis will be aware of the intense nobbling that occurs in Thoroughbred racing. Rugby Union: Kiwi's still bristle at the unaccountable outbreak of 'Soweto Squits', effectively nobbling the All Blacks in their World Cup Final drubbing by the Springboks not so long ago.

Following this week's 'revelations' of decades of drug/stimulant use/abuse in GP racing*, does anyone have any instances of drivers being surrepticiously slipped a 'Physic Ball' to sloooww them down?.

* JMF allegedly took a 'Go-Faster' pill, of his own concoction, prior to each race. Uncle Fangio's Patented Speed Balls. It's even alleged that Sir S took one of The Maestro's pills before the 1955 MM, won the event in a record time, which stands to this day, immediately drove across Europe, and couldn't get to sleep until after he hit Blighty's shores and quaffed a pint of 'Double-Thick Horlicks'.

We are also encouraged to believe, Colin Chapman was openly addicted to upper and downers. And please don't tell Our Joe, but the same article claims none other than Masten Gregory indulged in chemical activities which would seriously compromise his pending submission to the 'Hall of Fame'.

Can any qualified authority corroborate these claims, or are they yet more fanatasies from a scurrilous GP hack. (Who, incidentally, brags about his own drug-taking in same article.)

AM

#14 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 September 2002 - 03:37

Originally posted by Anorak Man
JMF allegedly took a 'Go-Faster' pill, of his own concoction, prior to each race. Uncle Fangio's Patented Speed Balls. It's even alleged that Sir S took one of The Maestro's pills before the 1955 MM, won the event in a record time, which stands to this day, immediately drove across Europe....


No need to 'allege' this, Stirl put it in print himself...

I don't recall exactly where, but I think it's in All But My Life (Wolfy?) somewhere.

And as for the record standing to this day... well, what would you expect it to do?

.....something Our Ray surreptitiously slips in to make Our AM think a little.....

#15 Anorak Man

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Posted 20 September 2002 - 06:25

Oh no, so JMF's WDC titles were drug-assisted, and even Sir S took drugs to win the (final ;) ) MM.

This is truly shocking news.

I'll have to have a lie down before I radically adjust my all-time top-ten list.

AM

#16 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 September 2002 - 07:17

Didn't Moss say they were just some sort of salt tablet?

And the final MM was a bit later on... only two years... but Moss didn't finish either of them so the record was pretty safe.

Apart from that, an event like the Mille Miglia suffered wet weather at some part of the course most years. For this reason and others, Moss said to Jenkinson at the end of that 1955 race, "We've made rather a mess of the record, haven't we - sort of spoilt it for anyone else, for there probably won't be another completely dry Mille Miglia for 20 years"

Just what time would a well-driven Porsche 935 (for instance... many quicker cars existed) have done in 1975? Mossy was a bit pessimistic... but he wasn't to know what fantastic advances would come over that twenty year course.

#17 Frank de Jong

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Posted 20 September 2002 - 09:55

How about Jos Verstappen.
In 1994 replaced by Herbert for the last races to gain extra points for the constructors' championship (which did not work out).
1995: Simtek - went broke after 6 races
1996: Arrows, after a promising start no money was wasted in development in order for the big bang of Arrows in 1997. Apart from that, one of the weakest engines in the field.
1997: Tyrrell; terrible engine, bad year
1998: Replaced Jan Magnussen at Stewart; basically a one-car team
1999: Promising tests with Honda, project stopped after death of Postlewaith.
2000: Arrows, not a bad year (!)
2001: Arrows with another terrible engine.
2002: A "Pedro de la Rosa" at Arrows.

I don't say that Jos is the best driver F1 has ever seen; but he had some serious bad luck.

#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 September 2002 - 09:59

Didn't he also feature in a major barbecue at Hockenheim one year?

#19 Frank de Jong

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Posted 20 September 2002 - 10:53

That was about his only lucky break... :p

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#20 Anorak Man

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Posted 21 September 2002 - 04:51

Our Ray wrote with pursed lips, and raised eyebrows:

Didn't Moss say they were just some sort of salt tablet?


*Chuckle*

I suspect Scotland Yard Forensic Dept might well have discovered another composition.

(The aforementioned-unmentionable scurrilous Hack, also stated that Chemists, at that time, could not determine the content of Uncle Fangio's Patented Speed Balls. Even a 1950's school kid's chemisty set could detect Sodium and Potassium Chloride, Ray)

Until we see authoratative proof of innocence ... Down come the Fangio and Moss posters ... *sigh*



And the final MM was a bit later on... only two years... but Moss didn't finish either of them so the record was pretty safe.


Ta for the correction Ray. Have Bronze Anorak Star :)


AM

#21 Anorak Man

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Posted 21 September 2002 - 05:00

Our Frank nominates:

How about Jos Verstappen.
In 1994 replaced by Herbert for the last races to gain extra points for the constructors' championship (which did not work out).
1995: Simtek - went broke after 6 races
1996: Arrows, after a promising start no money was wasted in development in order for the big bang of Arrows in 1997. Apart from that, one of the weakest engines in the field.
1997: Tyrrell; terrible engine, bad year
1998: Replaced Jan Magnussen at Stewart; basically a one-car team
1999: Promising tests with Honda, project stopped after death of Postlewaith.
2000: Arrows, not a bad year (!)
2001: Arrows with another terrible engine.
2002: A "Pedro de la Rosa" at Arrows.

I don't say that Jos is the best driver F1 has ever seen; but he had some serious bad luck.


You have a sound case Frank!

I like Jos, but I'm very glad that I don't have to be his team mate ;)

He does seem to have the kind of personality which would attract nobbling.

(True nobbling implies deliberate malicious intervention in mechanical or psychological mechanisms of what Our Ron now calls, 'The Package'.)


AM

#22 Anorak Man

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Posted 25 September 2002 - 09:37

Then there's the poor bloke whose Team Manager waved him out of the Spa pits to take on Eau Rouge KNOWING that the bloke had a duff steering column.

Driver discovered the anomaly, at around 150 mph, plunging into the most testing corner in GP racing ... with no steering.

Well nobbled.

What was his name?

#23 RSNS

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Posted 25 September 2002 - 17:01

Originally posted by Anorak Man
Our Ray wrote with pursed lips, and raised eyebrows:



*Chuckle*

I suspect Scotland Yard Forensic Dept might well have discovered another composition.

(The aforementioned-unmentionable scurrilous Hack, also stated that Chemists, at that time, could not determine the content of Uncle Fangio's Patented Speed Balls. Even a 1950's school kid's chemisty set could detect Sodium and Potassium Chloride, Ray)

Until we see authoratative proof of innocence ... Down come the Fangio and Moss posters ... *sigh*

AM


They were Swiss commercial pills - Dynavis was the trade name - that were prescribed by the doctor. Fangio told him he suffered from thirst during the long drives and he prescribed Dynavis to him.

Fangio gave them to Moss and Jenks for the Mille Miglia and Moss took his. Jenks didn’t and Moss’s father had them analyzed, but could make out their composition.

This is the source to Fangio’s ‘drug pills’...

#24 mera308gtb

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Posted 26 September 2002 - 02:45

Not the old, 'his car's quicker than mine, so change the numbers overnight' trick, by any chance? I seem to recall Alain pulling that one.



No, Alain didn't pull that one. This story didn't arise until several years later when Nigel wrote his second autobiography. He tried to claim that Prost ran sneaking around getting the mechanics to change the serial numbers on the monocoques. His evidence is that the following day his car didn't handle well and Alain was quicker. Considering Prost had the upper hand from the word go at Ferrari it seems a little absurd.

1990 was not a happy year for Nige. He announced his "retirement", parked a healthy car at Spa, and discovered he wasn't in the Senna/Prost class. I think his story is just sour grapes.

#25 mikedeering

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Posted 26 September 2002 - 10:39

Originally posted by mera308gtb
1990 was not a happy year for Nige.


True, but I'm sure reflecting back on the start of the Portuguese GP that year still brings a smile to his face.

#26 LittleChris

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Posted 27 September 2002 - 15:19

Originally posted by Anorak Man
Then there's the poor bloke whose Team Manager waved him out of the Spa pits to take on Eau Rouge KNOWING that the bloke had a duff steering column.

Driver discovered the anomaly, at around 150 mph, plunging into the most testing corner in GP racing ... with no steering.

Well nobbled.

What was his name?


Perry McCarthy - His book's a very good read incidentally especially the bit about when a bunch of nasty looking Italians approached him in the Andrea Moda workshop.

#27 Anorak Man

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Posted 28 September 2002 - 04:45

Perry McCarthy - His book's a very good read incidentally especially the bit about when a bunch of nasty looking Italians approached him in the Andrea Moda workshop.



Korrrrrect!

"Flat Out and Flat Broke" Haven't read it, but I'll shove it into our bookshop on the strength of your recommendation.

I'd appreciate y'tapping out the story y'mention Chris. That'd be 'Nasty looking Italians' as in Mafiosi, Tifosi, or just plain ugly?

AM

#28 Anorak Man

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Posted 28 September 2002 - 04:53

They were Swiss commercial pills - Dynavis was the trade name - that were prescribed by the doctor. Fangio told him he suffered from thirst during the long drives and he prescribed Dynavis to him.



Ta for that, but it's far from conclusive. I'll do some checking. 'Vister' is the name of the defunct Swiss company, and wouldn't it be a lark if they turned out to be a Mafia money-laundering front.

Strange 'Doctor' who prescribes drugs in place of a bottle of water eh?

I wonder what Jenks did with the 'Uncle Fangio's Speed Balls' he was slipped?

Probaly gave them to the neighbour's cat, or they are still in his attic, in the pocket of his Number Two Tropical Shorts, covered in fluff stuck to an 'Uncle Joe's Mint Ball'. Would make for an interesting analysis.

AM

#29 Anorak Man

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Posted 28 September 2002 - 12:45

Re Alain Nobbling Nige:

Mera sneered:

His evidence is that the following day his car didn't handle well and Alain was quicker. Considering Prost had the upper hand from the word go at Ferrari it seems a little absurd.


Seems reasonable evidence to me, and didn't Noige win his very first race for Enzo?
As in all these cases of calling the toss, we need the witness of the mechanics. They'd know for sure. I wish there were more of them writing their memoirs, apart from Matchett. (Or at least popping in here.) It'd be great to read what the Lotus and BRM Spanner lads have to say, about JYS & GH and brake-pad wear, Chapman's Eureka moments, and his pill-popping. etc.
Of course no Ferrari mechanic DARE say what went on at Maranello, unless it was published posthumoulsy, and he had no relatives.


AM

#30 Anorak Man

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Posted 28 September 2002 - 12:46

What about the Senna-Prost 'Nightmare/Dream Team' at Big Mac?

With such intense rivalry the temptation to nobble each other must've been immense.

Any instances?

#31 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 September 2002 - 18:22

Originally posted by Anorak Man
I wonder what Jenks did with the 'Uncle Fangio's Speed Balls' he was slipped?


DSJ was offered various medicaments before the '55 Mille Miglia epic, mostly by a friend of his who was a doctor of aeronautical medicine working at the Royal Aircraft Establishment and Empire Test Pilots' School at Farnborough. Jenks's great worry was motion sickness. He was told one product would stave off the symptoms...but might leave him constipated for a week or so. He thought that might be a positive advantage...

Jenks took the anti-sickness medication and it almost worked - he vomited once on the 1,000 mile drive...

Before the race, team-mate Fangio offered both Stirling and Jenks one of his 'magic pills' each.

Stirl took his and was flying for 48 hours before he imploded. He wrote in his diary after the race "Fangio's pills are fantastic!".

Juan never offered him one again.

Stirl asked Jenks what he had done with his pill - "Did you take it, bin it, or keep it?".

Wary of the effect it might have - certainly in conjunction with the motion-sickness treatment - Jenks had not taken it but he had kept it.

They both recalled Stirl passing it to his father - a dentist, remember - to get it analysed.

To the best of both their recollections, and mine, it was Pa Moss who came back with a report from the lab saying Fangio's pill included a little bit of this, and a little bit of that, and some mysterious ingredient which we cannot properly isolate nor identify...

Whether this was simple embroidery of the story or not I do not know. I can't remember if we found the trade name 'Dynavis' noted in DSJ's stuff, or in SM's.

Essentially Fangio told me first hand that his pills were originally prescribed to him to fight the onset of thirst which greatly troubled him in his early races. He found they did more than that - they enabled him, perhaps with his naturally extremely slow heart rate, to achieve feats of stamina that younger rivals could not approach; the pills and hours of energetic football in the mid-day sun on the beach at Mar del Plata perhaps???? 'cos he did that too as his 'fitness training'.

Certainly in the great Carretera Gran Premio races of several thousand miles at a time Fangio and his compadres had tried chewing coca leaves in the high Andes to stave off sleep... I'm not sure if cocaine has that effect, nor what drugs commonly stave off the onset of extreme thirst, but no doubt others could now advise....

DCN

#32 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 28 September 2002 - 20:56

Originally posted by Doug Nye

Essentially Fangio told me first hand that his pills were originally prescribed to him to fight the onset of thirst which greatly troubled him in his early races. He found they did more than that - they enabled him, perhaps with his naturally extremely slow heart rate, to achieve feats of stamina that younger rivals could not approach; the pills and hours of energetic football in the mid-day sun on the beach at Mar del Plata perhaps???? 'cos he did that too as his 'fitness training'.

Certainly in the great Carretera Gran Premio races of several thousand miles at a time Fangio and his compadres had tried chewing coca leaves in the high Andes to stave off sleep... I'm not sure if cocaine has that effect, nor what drugs commonly stave off the onset of extreme thirst, but no doubt others could now advise....

DCN


Fangio, as other drivers, had tried chewing coca leaves at 2 races for sure: the Buenos Aires-Lima-Buenos Aires and the Buenos Aires-Caracas-Buenos Aires, but not only to stave off sleep. It is usual that the people who lives at the high Andes also chews coca leaves to avoid the effects of the low air pressure at their high altitude neighbourhoods. Those effects, pretty well known by the football (soccer) players that played at i.e. La Paz, Bolivia do not let those players to breath well and also cause extreme muscular fatigue. In the case of the football players, they just can not run anymore after 10 or 15 minutes of playing. They usually go to La Paz 10 days or even more before the match to get used to high altitude effects.

afaik, these were the only cases where the Argentine Turismo de Carretera drivers chewed coca leaves. All the races they runned into the argentine territory visited places that are located at a much lower altitude than La Paz.

One important thing to point out is that chewing coca leaves has nothing to do with cocaine. Its effects are completely different. Chewing coca leaves can not turn a healthy man into an addict, which one of the main consequences of consuming cocaine, medically speaking.

Arturo

#33 Anorak Man

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Posted 02 October 2002 - 03:29

Ta Doug for your comments on 'Uncle Fangio's Speed Balls', which plainly rule out them being mere 'salt tablets' or *Chortle* 'anti-thirst pills'.

"Doctor, doctor, can you give me summat for this terrible thirst?" (*Winks*)
"Certainly Juan, take one of these at the start of every race, but be warned they do have err ... certain ... 'side-effects." (*Winks*)
"Que?"
"Your head will go numb for the day and, they may cause you to win five World Driver's Championships."
"Gracias Doc!"

Jenk's anti-motion-sickness pills would probably have been one of the early Promazine derivatives, which act directly on the brain, and are used to this day as pre-anaesthetic medication.
Interestingly, some forms, such as Acepromazine, cause drowsiness in one species, but excitement in others.

Sir Stirling's diary notes, and his hyper-excitable state after taking one of Fangio's Speed Balls
prove they had a central stimulant effect, in addition to any supposed 'thirst-reducing properties'.
(To be frank, I think that aspect is a Maserati-red-herring :)) No doubt both he and Fangio *did* take genuine salt-tablets many times, together with the fluids which must accompany them, but never would they alone have had the DYNAMIC effect witnessed and recorded.

Chewing Coca leaves is a well known way of getting a cocaine fix, and whether it leads to addiction or not, it's plainly cheating, and thoroughly reprehensible.
Btw. Remember that blonde Canadian snooker star in the World Championships who was facing certain defeat?
In the between-frames-break he snorted coke in the toilets, and came back to win the match at a trot, testifying when nabbed that, "The pockets appeared enormous, I just couldn't miss!"

I must say, I'm genuinely dismayed to discover that Fangio's victories were obtained with drug-assistance, I'd hoped that his reputation could be salvaged. But sadly, since what the scurrilous hack wrote appears to be true, Fangio's out of my Top Ten Greats for good.
No wonder authors frequently note he, 'looked serene at the wheel', as he no doubt sucked away on one of his dubious 'Speed Balls'.

I know there are those who think nothing of drug-taking for whatever reason. Fans and idolaters will make lame excuses for Fangio, such as "It was part of his culture" or "He took them medicinally" etc, but that doesn't change the fact that it's just flat wrong, it always was, and always will be.
Whether it was in the rules or not, it's unsporting, unethical, immoral, and shameful.

What about Nuvolari's final months?

The poor bloke must've suffered terribly as his chest caved in, and he likely lived on morphine. It seems to have been his wish to die at the wheel of a racing-car.
Chances are he was tanked up with morphine in his final races. If so, would that be excusable, heroic, or dangerously irresponsible? What do you think?

AM

PS. Possibly of passing interest: I'm a vet, and regularly approached by all sorts of people asking for drugs. From those wishing to commit suicide, to junkies/muggers who want to try the 'cat-dope' or 'horse-drug', and shifty characters asking for 'stuff to make their greyhound/pigeon/racehorse/newt' go quicker.
The hairiest episode I had was when I was working in a Central American nation, and was invited to visit a famous bloke, who first flattered, then fed me, and finally offered me a job as the top race-course vet in the land.
Sensing there was a catch, (there usually is eh?) I asked him 'how bent' the racing scene was. He smirked, and took me to see his medicine chest. It had more drugs in it than Boots' the Chemist. He showed me various drug-cocktails, told me the dose-rates, and their effects in Thoroughbreds in detail. Things I'd never heard of, and said I'd be expected to go to Mexico every month to restock!
Of course I politely turned him down, and only later learned that he was one of the nation's top Mafia men. Gulp!

#34 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 02 October 2002 - 04:46

Originally posted by Anorak Man
Sir Stirling's diary notes, and his hyper-excitable state after taking one of Fangio's Speed Balls prove they had a central stimulant effect, in addition to any supposed 'thirst-reducing properties'. (To be frank, I think that aspect is a Maserati-red-herring :)) No doubt both he and Fangio *did* take genuine salt-tablets many times, together with the fluids which must accompany them, but never would they alone have had the DYNAMIC effect witnessed and recorded.

You should need more than a single record (SM's) to say that those "magic" pills would affect the same way all the people. That would be a wrong procedure, as least according to DEA protocols.


Chewing Coca leaves is a well known way of getting a cocaine fix, and whether it leads to addiction or not, it's plainly cheating, and thoroughly reprehensible.
Btw. Remember that blonde Canadian snooker star in the World Championships who was facing certain defeat?
In the between-frames-break he snorted coke in the toilets, and came back to win the match at a trot, testifying when nabbed that, "The pockets appeared enormous, I just couldn't miss!"

Don't you think that one thing is to snort coke in a toilet and another pretty different is to chew coca leaves to avoid the effects of the high alttitude ?? Maybe you went a little far with you sample. Your words imply that everybody that lives near the Andes and that use coca leaves to avoid those efect is an addict, which is wrong. From the medical and also from the social point of view, you are wrong.

I must say, I'm genuinely dismayed to discover that Fangio's victories were obtained with drug-assistance, I'd hoped that his reputation could be salvaged. But sadly, since what the scurrilous hack wrote appears to be true, Fangio's out of my Top Ten Greats for good.
No wonder authors frequently note he, 'looked serene at the wheel', as he no doubt sucked away on one of his dubious 'Speed Balls'.

Curious way to insult the Maestro's memory. You should avoid calling him the Maestro too.


I know there are those who think nothing of drug-taking for whatever reason. Fans and idolaters will make lame excuses for Fangio, such as "It was part of his culture" or "He took them medicinally" etc, but that doesn't change the fact that it's just flat wrong, it always was, and always will be.Whether it was in the rules or not, it's unsporting, unethical, immoral, and shameful.

You should have also stated that all those adjectives are YOUR opinion only. Calling Fangio an unsporting, an unethical, an inmoral and shameful human being is not the same his pairs thought and still think.

What about Nuvolari's final months?

The poor bloke must've suffered terribly as his chest caved in, and he likely lived on morphine. It seems to have been his wish to die at the wheel of a racing-car.
Chances are he was tanked up with morphine in his final races. If so, would that be excusable, heroic, or dangerously irresponsible? What do you think?

Oh well, now are you meaning poor Tazio was another drugaddict ?? It seems easy for you to qualify other people actions.


PS. Possibly of passing interest: I'm a vet, and regularly approached by all sorts of people asking for drugs. From those wishing to commit suicide, to junkies/muggers who want to try the 'cat-dope' or 'horse-drug', and shifty characters asking for 'stuff to make their greyhound/pigeon/racehorse/newt' go quicker.
The hairiest episode I had was when I was working in a Central American nation, and was invited to visit a famous bloke, who first flattered, then fed me, and finally offered me a job as the top race-course vet in the land.
Sensing there was a catch, (there usually is eh?) I asked him 'how bent' the racing scene was. He smirked, and took me to see his medicine chest. It had more drugs in it than Boots' the Chemist. He showed me various drug-cocktails, told me the dose-rates, and their effects in Thoroughbreds in detail. Things I'd never heard of, and said I'd be expected to go to Mexico every month to restock!
Of course I politely turned him down, and only later learned that he was one of the nation's top Mafia men. Gulp!


yes, gulp ! :smoking: :rolleyes:

#35 Joe Fan

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Posted 02 October 2002 - 05:45

Originally posted by Anorak Man
We are also encouraged to believe, Colin Chapman was openly addicted to upper and downers. And please don't tell Our Joe, but the same article claims none other than Masten Gregory indulged in chemical activities which would seriously compromise his pending submission to the 'Hall of Fame'.


The allegations of Masten being a habitual drug user (as Mike Lawrence claimed in a Motor Sport issue) are not true. I have talked to anybody and everybody that was close to Masten (family, friends, ex-wives, drivers, former mechanics and crew members, etc.) and all have told me that Masten did not use drugs. Even when I volunteered to keep such off the record. When I told Carroll Shelby about this, his response was "Bullshit!" And he said yes I could quote him on that. I sent Motor Sport an email addressing these allegations but they never printed it.

Robert Edwards wrote that he had heard these drug users allegations about Masten too in his Archie and the Lister book. He also does not believe they were true and indicated that they may have arisen from his untimely death at an relatively young age and said that they would be libelous if Masten were still alive today. I have addressed these allegations in my Masten Gregory biography and I do have an idea on how and why these might have started. At any rate, Masten's brother was quite upset and outraged when I showed him the Motor Sport issue.

If anybody has information regarding this matter that is above heresay evidence, I am easy to find.

#36 Joe Fan

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Posted 02 October 2002 - 07:45

Originally posted by Anorak Man
Chewing Coca leaves is a well known way of getting a cocaine fix, and whether it leads to addiction or not, it's plainly cheating, and thoroughly reprehensible.
Btw. Remember that blonde Canadian snooker star in the World Championships who was facing certain defeat?
In the between-frames-break he snorted coke in the toilets, and came back to win the match at a trot, testifying when nabbed that, "The pockets appeared enormous, I just couldn't miss!"

I must say, I'm genuinely dismayed to discover that Fangio's victories were obtained with drug-assistance, I'd hoped that his reputation could be salvaged. But sadly, since what the scurrilous hack wrote appears to be true, Fangio's out of my Top Ten Greats for good.
No wonder authors frequently note he, 'looked serene at the wheel', as he no doubt sucked away on one of his dubious 'Speed Balls'.

I know there are those who think nothing of drug-taking for whatever reason. Fans and idolaters will make lame excuses for Fangio, such as "It was part of his culture" or "He took them medicinally" etc, but that doesn't change the fact that it's just flat wrong, it always was, and always will be.
Whether it was in the rules or not, it's unsporting, unethical, immoral, and shameful.


Anorak Man, I wouldn't get your shorts in an uproar about Fangio chewing coca leaves. Chewing coca leaves was once common among South Americans. Yes it contains small traces of cocaine (less than 1.5%) and yes it is a stimulent. However, it was also used for relief of gastric pain, motion sickness, nausea, and vomiting. It also does not create dependence nor does it create toxicity.

Check out this page from the American Journal of Alcohol and Drug Abuse: http://cocaine.org/cocaleaf/index.html

Also note the soft drink Coca-Cola used to contain cocaine as late as 1903 but was removed later when it was found that it was habit-forming. The era when Fangio drove was much different than today and this must be taken into account along with the obvlous cultural aspects of him being a South American. Fangio's career is not tarnished in my book. Ask Karl Ludvigsen about this. He wrote a biography on Fangio and he believes that this stuff is way overblown.

#37 Anorak Man

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Posted 06 October 2002 - 10:47

Oh how painful the unveiling of those feet of clay, common to all men, save One. And how difficult to pull from the hearts of idolaters the object of their devotion. But for those not prejudiced by such delusion and vanity, there's no grey area between right and wrong, and Fangio's taking drugs to enhance his driving ability, was plain wrong.

How refreshing therefore, to hear this week, that the FIA takes a similar view, and has stripped Tomas Enge of his F3000 Championship title, and banned him for a year for taking drugs. Only a year?

Whether or not the FIA has the courage, I for one will retrospectively 'strip Fangio of his titles'. And Stirling of his '55 MM victory. So the next drug-free finisher was the actual winner of their titles and events. I wonder who that was?

The first one's free, but oh at what terrible cost to lives, and reputations.

Truly great competitors don't need to cheat.

What about Nuvolari's final months?

The poor bloke must've suffered terribly as his chest caved in, and he likely lived on morphine. It seems to have been his wish to die at the wheel of a racing-car.

Chances are he was tanked-up with morphine in his final races. If so, would that be excusable, heroic, or dangerously irresponsible? What do you think?


AM

#38 LittleChris

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Posted 06 October 2002 - 12:25

Originally posted by Anorak Man

How refreshing therefore, to hear this week, that the FIA takes a similar view, and has stripped Tomas Enge of his F3000 Championship title, and banned him for a year for taking drugs. Only a year?


AM


Case not proven as far as I'm concerned, I don't even think the results of the second test have been published yet. As far as I'm aware there is no evidence that he knowingly took cannabis just that he could have been present when it was being smoked. As I've previously stated elsewhere, he had already passed 5 drug tests during his F3000 career and it seems very strange that he would suddenly decide to start doing something that could prove that detrimental to his career.

#39 tifoso

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Posted 06 October 2002 - 17:06

Originally posted by Anorak Man
But off the top of mi' bonce, I'd say Mr. Herbert

Not only was he well-nobbled by Flav to keep MS at Benetton, but when he moved to Sauber, the mechanics used to toss spanners into the cockpit, just to wind Our Johnny up.

Sorry. I can't agree with this one. I like Johnny, but to consider his career-year "nobbled." I don't think so. Something from Steve Matchett's book A Mechanic's Tale:

Out of all the GPs in 1995, we only had one reliability fault with Johnny's B195. Benetton gave Johnny the most outstanding and successful season of his entire Formula 1 career, 2 GP wins, 45 points -- a rather impressive 250% increase over his whole career total, 4th place in the WDC.

I might vote for Jean Alesi, at least in the "modern" driver category over Johnny Herbert. But I don't really know what nobbled means so...

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#40 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 06 October 2002 - 17:22

Originally posted by Anorak Man
.... But for those not prejudiced by such delusion and vanity, there's no grey area between right and wrong ....


.... and of course you think you are right, right ?? :p

So are you also trashing all Fangio's pairs opinions about him ?? Why not a single one of them talked about this matter you consider proved ?? Were they ALL drugaddicts or drug users or drug dealers ?? Did Mercedes Benz commit a crime naming Juan Manuel his Honorary President of their Artentine branch, knowing he use drugs (as you said) to get his 5 World Championships ?? How can Stirling Moss be talking nowadays how a great driver AND human being Fangio was knowing JMF won his WCs with the help of drugs ?? Don't you think you can be a little, only a little, wrong ??

It is obvious that if you think that things can only be black or white, right or wrong, then it is useless to talk with you. You have just killed the reason, the possibility of thinking .... you are going back to the XVth century, though Mr Hitler is only one of the many samples of this irrational way of thinking in the XXth century.

Sadly, the world is a mess because fundamentalists that think ..... "you are with us or you are against us" .... where did common sense go ?? ... end of this thread for me :rolleyes:

Please, let Fangio RIP and God bless you .... even his son did some wrongs once :rolleyes:

#41 Doug Nye

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Posted 07 October 2002 - 10:00

Arturo is quite right - I think I was one who started this hare running simply by saying that Fangio's "famous pills" would cause a tremendous fuss if he was around and using the things today, in the present frenzied and intrusive climate of opinion.

In his period the modern attitude did NOT apply, and there was NOT a high-profile problem with anybody involved in the sport/business.

It's of no more than passing academic interest to apply the standards and sensitivities of 2002 to the activities of those in the 1940s or '50s. Attitudes in period were very, very different, and they set the standards by which any history should properly be judged.

DCN

#42 Option1

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Posted 07 October 2002 - 13:16

Well said Doug and Arturo!!

Anorak Man, it seems to me that you have found a cause and have decide that you will now villify someone based on hearsay and, quite probably, false evidence using rules that didn't apply at the time No matter what your protestations those rules current now still do not apply to then. However, even stooping to using that line of thought gives your argument far more credit than it deserves. Basically the only question in my mind is, "where do you get off being judge and jury and convicting, on no evidence and no defence, someone who hasn't even been charged?"

I'm afraid at best you make yourself look foolish, at worst like a blind fanatic.

Neil

#43 Paul Parker

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 08:14

On a lighter note concerning Masten Gregory.

Years ago Michael Cooper told me about visiting Masten at his apartment near Marble Arch (London) and at some point using the bathroom.

Whilst taking a pee something fairly substantial but light landed on his shoulder causing Mike a near heart attack and a substantial splashback. He suddenly found himself looking into a pair of very big, deep eyes.

It transpired that Masten had a pet bush baby that he kept in the bathroom!

#44 MCS

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 19:15

Before this drifts further into "Tour de France" territory, has anybody mentioned Larry Perkins yet?

#45 Paul Parker

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 07:54

Obviously not MCS and what do you mean by 'Tour de France' territory?

#46 MCS

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 08:09

Originally posted by Paul Parker
Obviously not MCS and what do you mean by 'Tour de France' territory?


Seemingly never ending drug allegations.

This thread is supposed to concern so-called "nobbled" drivers (and by that, I'm assuming drivers who were unlucky in that they didn't quite have the equipment at their disposal that you would have initially expected and suffered as a result).

Not a discussion on supposed stimulants...

#47 Paul Parker

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 08:52

Without going back to the beginning of the thread I think it was a bit of both.

I seem to recall that during the 1950s/60s some drivers in the longer rallys where you had to drive continuously for 24 hours or more, took various 'speed' based drugs to stay awake. Exhausted World War 2 fighter and bomber pilots took benzydrine (forgive the dodgy spelling) for the same reasons according to what I have been told.

As for being 'nobbled' equipment wise I watched with cynical detachment when Damon Hill having been fully competitive with Prost during the second half of 1993 was immediately off the pace when Senna joined Williams in '94 and immediately back on the pace after Senna's demise.

#48 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 10:24

Originally posted by Paul Parker
As for being 'nobbled' equipment wise I watched with cynical detachment when Damon Hill having been fully competitive with Prost during the second half of 1993 was immediately off the pace when Senna joined Williams in '94 and immediately back on the pace after Senna's demise.


And wasn't it amazing how the only time one of the seemingly unbreakable Renault engines blew up in that era was when it was happily powering Hill into the far distance at Silverstone... This being the era of radio-controled ECUs in F1 of course and the rookie was not supposed to make the highly paid ex World Champion look like a plank in so obvious a fashion.

Some claimed Hill was over-revving the engine but could a driver even conciously do that with modern electronic controls in place? Especially when the guys in the pits had their fingers on all the required buttons? Me thinks not...

Earlier in the same year, during the European GP, Hill was repeatedly dragged into the pits for pointless tyre changes simply to prevent him running rings round Prost who was by this stage of his career was notoriously slow in bad weather.

I still wonder if Hill would have have challenged Senna, on his day-of-days(as legend now has it), given half a chance? Remember Hill was stellar at Suzuka in the rain a year or so later.

Williams (or is it their engine suppliers?) have repeatedly had a degree of suspicion hanging over them when it comes to nobbled cars/drivers . Mansell (Honda really loved Piquet) Hill (Prost and Renault...) and one might even consider Button ( BMW and Schummacher) all have cause to question the level playing field that was supposed to exist...

#49 Paul Parker

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 12:44

Yep, I agree entirely.

Alas you've got more chance of scaling Everest in plimsoles than finding out the truth about F1 during the last 15 odd years.

#50 ensign14

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 13:14

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks


And wasn't it amazing how the only time one of the seemingly unbreakable Renault engines blew up in that era was when it was happily powering Hill into the far distance at Silverstone... This being the era of radio-controled ECUs in F1 of course and the rookie was not supposed to make the highly paid ex World Champion look like a plank in so obvious a fashion.

I can't see that Renault would have liked that. British driver wins British GP - a race his dad never won? Much better publicity-wise than another win for Le Nain.