194 replies to this topic

[David Beard]

But the Kieft de Soto is not for sale...?

Edited by David Beard, 23 October 2012 - 21:44.

[David Beard]

I understand that the Kieft GP car is now owned by VSCC member Nigel Batchelor. Looking forward to seeing him racing it next year

Edited by David Beard, 23 October 2012 - 21:45.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posed by David Beard
But the Kieft de Soto is not for sale...?

Good point, David...

Of course, such a device is just too special to sell!

[ken devine]

This Kieft Desoto ran in the Historic demonstration at this years AGP. A beautiful car i had not seen one before.







Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by ken devine
This Kieft Desoto ran in the Historic demonstration at this years AGP. A beautiful car i had not seen one before.

There's a very good reason for that, Ken!

[David Beard]

This Kieft Desoto ran in the Historic demonstration at this years AGP. A beautiful car i had not seen one befor

Ken, you will be interested in this thread, specifically on the Desoto car...

http://forums.autosp...w...29&hl=kieft

[Exnigel]

I understand that the Kieft GP car is now owned by VSCC member Nigel Batchelor. Looking forward to seeing him racing it next year

Here is a very short video of the kieft f1 car at a very wet, cold and windy donington in November...........turn the volume up before playing.
http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player

Hopefully the car will be out reasonably regularly this season with the Hgpca.

Nigel batchelor

[Eric Dunsdon]

[quote name='Exnigel' date='Jan 27 2013, 21:58' post='6105942']
Here is a very short video of the kieft f1 car at a very wet, cold and windy donington in November...........turn the volume up before playing.
http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player

Hopefully the car will be out reasonably regularly this season with the Hgpca.

Nigel batchelor
[/quote
Looking forward to that very much. VSCC Spring Start perhaps?.

[Exnigel]

Not sure about spring start as am supposed to be doing flying Scotsman and the tour auto, so end April diary pretty busy. More likely brands hatch in may, but will post here if that changes

[Eric Dunsdon]

Not sure about spring start as am supposed to be doing flying Scotsman and the tour auto, so end April diary pretty busy. More likely brands hatch in may, but will post here if that changes

DRAT!!!.

[David Beard]

Here is a very short video of the kieft f1 car at a very wet, cold and windy donington in November...........turn the volume up before playing.
http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player

Hopefully the car will be out reasonably regularly this season with the Hgpca.

Nigel batchelor

It's a superb noise, isn't it!

Great to see you here Nigel. I hope you have enjoyed the thread.
I see you've posted some interesting stuff about your Bentley at "the other place".

http://www.ten-tenth...d.php?p=2569205

And this is brilliant too!
http://www.streamica.../#v/R7Xa_1z3Br4

Similar reportage of your forthcoming Kieft experiences will be most welcome!

Edited by David Beard, 29 January 2013 - 13:07.

[Exnigel]

It's a superb noise, isn't it!

Great to see you here Nigel. I hope you have enjoyed the thread.
I see you've posted some interesting stuff about your Bentley at "the other place".

http://www.ten-tenth...d.php?p=2569205

And this is brilliant too!
http://www.streamica.../#v/R7Xa_1z3Br4

Similar reportage of your forthcoming Kieft experiences will be most welcome!

Hi David

I have enjoyed the thread, and would have posted here earlier but it has taken me a while to be approved to post on this Forum....

On my Bentley, I raced the Blower for four years mainly in VSCC and Motor Racing Legends events, and also have rallied it in historic events. however I have just sold it as it is becoming more difficult to race it as the non VSCC events have all but disappeared, and as was pointed out at "the other place" Bentleys are not particularly manoeuvreable and round the short tight circuits cannot compete with cars from the post-vintage period against which it has to race.

I have an Aston DB2/4 from 1953 which I will continue to race in the Woodcote trophy, so the Kieft thus represents a bit of a change of direction, racing wise, for me. Although we have a great deal of information on the car from the previous owner, it will be a bit of a voyage of discovery this year as we get used to its foibles. I will post what I hope will be interesting snippets as they arise: we took it out at Donington in November just to see what was what before the winter, and to see what work needs to be done. We originally thought that we would convert to Avgas from Methanol, as it is easier to obtain and Methanol cars are notoriously difficult to start when cold: whilst at 5 degrees Centigrade at Donington it was a pig to start, it actually ran beautifully once warmed up, and we did about 30 laps in all, and so we will keep it on Methanol for this year at least.

As I have mentioned in a previous post, I suspect that I will not make the spring start this year but will post again if that changes. I hope to be at Brands hatch 25th/27th may and Silverstone classic on 26/28 July in the UK.

Needless to say anyone is welcome to come over and have a chat about the car and look around it when we are at the races: it is a fantastic and unique piece of kit

Nigel B

[Nev]

The Kieft is such a wonderful car.

Can anyone please help me with answers to the following two questions:

1. I know the car was finally completed and raced in 2002 but when was the chassis/body actually built?

2. Does the car currently race with a FIA "Passport" (HTP) in historic events?

[D-Type]

(1) According to the links on this thread, and Mike Lawrence's Grand Prix Cars 1945-1965 the chassis was built in 1954. Lawrence suggests the original body was built at the same time. I'm not sure about the body it currently has.

(2) I don't know, but would be interested to find out.

[Tim Murray]

According to the Bonhams auction blurb the body and (two) chassis are original:

Most significantly, the complete original bodywork had survived with the prototype and spare chassis frames, although the panels still required final finishing.

[David Beard]

According to the Bonhams auction blurb the body and (two) chassis are original:

I hadn't seen that, thanks Tim.

[Nev]

I hadn't seen that, thanks Tim.

Do you think Bonham's marketing blurb can be relied on? Is there any other info on when the chassis was actually built?

[D-Type]

Do you think Bonham's marketing blurb can be relied on? Is there any other info on when the chassis was actually built?

As it was probably written by Doug Nye, I think you can trust it.

[Lee Nicolle]

Reading that article it says that the oil is filtered on the scavenge side. Not a good idea as there is no pressure on that side and filtering and cooling restricts the flow back to the tank, and fills the engine with oil.You have to do it on the pressure side, as the pressure pushed the oil through all the restrictions with little fuss. Though many people seem to bugger that up too. Often because it does not look pretty!
That really is drysumping 101.

[GMACKIE]

Reading that article it says that the oil is filtered on the scavenge side. Not a good idea as there is no pressure on that side and filtering and cooling restricts the flow back to the tank, and fills the engine with oil.You have to do it on the pressure side, as the pressure pushed the oil through all the restrictions with little fuss. Though many people seem to bugger that up too. Often because it does not look pretty!
That really is drysumping 101.

Shouldn't be a problem, Lee, provided that the scavenge pump has enough capacity [usually about 2X pressure pump]. It does say "filters", which indicates plenty of flow capacity.

[Lee Nicolle]

Shouldn't be a problem, Lee, provided that the scavenge pump has enough capacity [usually about 2X pressure pump]. It does say "filters", which indicates plenty of flow capacity.

Every text on the subject says dont do it. I tried just with the cooler and it banked up oil in the engine in the shed at idle. That was a 3 stage Weaver pump, a proven quality item. 2 stages returning oil to the tank.
I once saw someone try to filter on the pick up side of the scavenge pumps. It scavenged about 500mil of oil and emptied the tank into the engine, on the dyno before they even got started. And I had told them so!!

[GMACKIE]

Lee, if the correct filters are used, i.e. high-flow, low pressure [a la Porsche 911], it will work fine. If you just 'chuck on a Z9', then there could be [probably will be] trouble.

[Lee Nicolle]

Lee, if the correct filters are used, i.e. high-flow, low pressure [a la Porsche 911], it will work fine. If you just 'chuck on a Z9', then there could be [probably will be] trouble.

Greg, it does not matter what filter you use. Scavenge has no pressure as such to force through the filters. And any filter that is such low impedence will not filter the oil! Kind of the object!
A cooler has less impedence than any filter. A scavenge is usually 2 or 3 3/4" id hoses.
Oh and a Z9 filters properly, has enough volume for most performance engines,,, on the pressure side.
And just for the record, the reason most dry sump pumps chew up the scavenge sections is not dirty oil,crud in the oil, it is actually lack of lubrication.
Pressure sections seldom ever mark up appreciably at all.
Put crud through the pump, any lumps of valve train etc and they jam the pump and flick the belt or strip the drive fairly quickly. But put too effective screens on the scavenge and you will end up with all of the above. A trade off unfortunatly.

[Derwent Motorsport]

This thread reminds me of an old thread about of guy rebuilding a rare British 50s single seater. I can't remember what it was but he was a gifted engineeer doing all the work himself. He used to type updates about with no punctuation and I think his daughter added some photos. I thought his name was Chapamn but I've been unable to find it. I wonder what happened to the car?

[Allan Lupton]

This thread reminds me of an old thread about of guy rebuilding a rare British 50s single seater. I can't remember what it was but he was a gifted engineeer doing all the work himself. He used to type updates about with no punctuation and I think his daughter added some photos. I thought his name was Chapamn but I've been unable to find it. I wonder what happened to the car?

This'd be the one

[David Beard]

Seen at the HGPCA test day. Sorry I missed talking to Nigel.

[David Beard]

Seen at the HGPCA test day. Sorry I missed talking to Nigel.

He wrote this elsewhere:

I took the Kieft GP car to Pau this weekend and was hoping to report positively. The weekend started well with a the car going well in free practice and after 15 laps learning the circuit I felt very confident in the car. However pride came before a fall and in qualifying I overcooked the entry to station hairpin, got on the slippery side and ended up clipping the kerb and then tyre wall. Speed was low at 15mph, but result was a dented nose and broken wishbones. Very cross with myself. Car should be out again at Dijon, where I am determined to do better and then at silverstone classic.
Nigel B

[Dutchy]

I'm sorry to see yet another historic Grand Prix car defaced with the addition of a bloody roll over bar.

[Ray Bell]

They seem, however, to have gone to some effort to make it both removable and so that it doesn't require holes in the bodywork...

I would much rather that than have to grieve at the loss of a valuable friend.

[D-Type]

I'm sorry to see yet another historic Grand Prix car defaced with the addition of a bloody roll over bar.

Unfortunately if a car on narrow fities tyres goes into a gravel trap, it will overturn (A risk that didn't exist in period). Hence the need to provide a rollover bar.

[john ruston]

If Nigel Batchelor wants a roll over bar whats the problem?

He's spending his money making it work.

Do the people who are complaining run their G P cars without one?

[Dutchy]

If Nigel Batchelor wants a roll over bar whats the problem?

He's spending his money making it work.

Do the people who are complaining run their G P cars without one?

I accept that he is spending his money as he sees fit but sadly a field of cars so fitted has absolutely no appeal for me.

I do race without one.

[Ray Bell]

Take heart, then...

Cars so fitted will have extra wind resistance and their brakes will have to work harder as they're carrying more weight.

That their drivers might live longer is of little consequence, of course.

[bradbury west]

I do race without one.

Upon your head be it, then.
Roger Lund

[Rudernst]

I am racing the 1954 Kieft Climax Sports Racer and let myself be persuaded to fit a rollover hoop, optional in that age bracket not a pretty sight but potentially life saving
I am having a Lotus 12 restored and need no persuading to fit yet another hoop which is again optional, will be potentially not so ugly because there are more convenient anchoring points on the Lotus spaceframe

I value my life to much to seriously race without a hoop
I am responsible towards my family and business associates to behave reasonably sensible even when racing.

HGPCA normally is a sane racing environment, but some risk remains.

There are drivers that lived to tell the tale how a hoop saved their life during the 2006 Monaco startline pre 61 GP car crash for instance.

If You dont like the sight of the hoops, either try to mentally blank them out or look away

most racegoers are very happy to see rare cars beeing used and dont mind the hoop that much

in the end the driver/owner gets to decide himself if he needs a hoop, thankfully, this is not ancient Rome and we are not gladiators

Rudolf

Edited by Rudernst, 31 May 2013 - 15:31.

[Peter Morley]

I confess that I tend to avoid photographing cars with non-period roll-over bars, but in the event that one slips through there is always Photoshop...

If that roll over bar had been black you wouldn't have needed to resort to Photoshop in that particular photo!

Our Connaught runs with & without a roll over bar, normally without because it will not fit in any of our road cars which makes re-uniting it with the car tricky.
What we have noticed is that the photos of it that are used in magazines etc tend to be of it without the bar, several professional photographers have mentioned that they prefer to submit photos of cars without bars.

Personally I tend not to notice them too much (if they are simple and small enough) and think that as long as they are removable it is OK since it is still possible to present the car as it was in period.

[Arjan de Roos]

Is it known to what degree Cyril Kieft is descendant from a Dutch family. Of course there is the famous football player Wim (1963), but also the merchant (1597-1647) who had his own war.

[Lee Nicolle]

Roll bars should be mandatory, as well as proper modern seat belts in all cars. Ideally a simple hoop [and a forward mounted bulkhead or second hoop under the bodywork] that does not intrude into the bodywork but if that cannot happen so be it. Better a couple of holes than a dead driver,,, and the endless litigation involved.
I do however draw the line at the bloody ugly rollcages fitted to British Clubman style cars these days.
As for not photographing the cars, what rot. They are competing,,, and far safer!
Though I do agree painting the rollbar black is far less noticeable, so you competitors get your black paint out!!

[raceannouncer2003]

I am having a Lotus 12 restored

Which Lotus 12 do you have? Where is it being restored?

Vince H.

[Rudernst]

Which Lotus 12 do you have? Where is it being restored?

Vince H.

Hi Vince,
I have Lotus 12 / Chassis 358, identified and accepted by the HLR
the former Marsh hillclimber and Donington Collection car,
restauration is done by Micheal Hibberd, Peter Denty restored the Frame

I seem to have a tendency to end up with cars that
- either came out of the Donny Collection
- or stood on somebodies roof for a while
or both

My Lotus 18 was the Donny entry building roof exhibit
my Lotus 12 came from Donny, stood near the entry but inside
My PBA Formula Junior spent some time on the Roof of a motor business in Hamburg, has an invite for GW this year

We now have a very good understanding of what rainwater does to tube framed racing cars.

Rudolf

Edited by Rudernst, 02 June 2013 - 09:02.

[M bennett]

It will be good to see this car move again after so many years just sitting there.
Starting out as Lotus 12 chassis no 358 it was completed at Hornsey on 2/4/58, to special order for Michael Christie as a hill climb car. Michael Christie had been runner up in the 1957 RAC hill climb championship in a Cooper JAP. I would think that Lotus charged handsomely for the unique features, a FWB single cam Climax, aero screen and Jaguar suede green paint. The only Lotus 12 not built with an FPF.
On its first outing at Prescott 4/5/58 the press noted "that the Lotus was not the hill climb car of the future, an engine in the front bestowed no advantages in adhesion at the back". "Christie plans to carry ballast in future, to keep the rear wheels on the ground."
Following a major crash in 1959 it was fully rebuilt with a new chassis and bodywork and run as the Motus. With a few more owners (Hector Graham, Rigg etc) it ended up at Donington where the gearbox and rear suspension formed the basis of yet another rebuild.
To construct a new chassis and bodywork Donington borrowed the chassis and bodywork of #357 from Brian Eckersley and Nigel Woollett. #357 had been lying dismantled in Surrey for many years, Donington then copied this chassis and bodywork exactly. It was so exact that they reproduced the RHS steering column, a #357 feature introduced earlier to accommodate a Ford Kent engine. Lotus 12s had LHS steering columns
Completed in 1974 the Donington car "did not take 358's number" (Theme Lotus) subsequently seeing little use over the years.
Does any one recall seeing it move whilst at Donington?
By the way I am always keen to receive information and pictures of Lotus 12 cars through 1957/8/9.
Mike Bennett Adelaide

[Lee Nicolle]

Hi David

I have enjoyed the thread, and would have posted here earlier but it has taken me a while to be approved to post on this Forum....

On my Bentley, I raced the Blower for four years mainly in VSCC and Motor Racing Legends events, and also have rallied it in historic events. however I have just sold it as it is becoming more difficult to race it as the non VSCC events have all but disappeared, and as was pointed out at "the other place" Bentleys are not particularly manoeuvreable and round the short tight circuits cannot compete with cars from the post-vintage period against which it has to race.

I have an Aston DB2/4 from 1953 which I will continue to race in the Woodcote trophy, so the Kieft thus represents a bit of a change of direction, racing wise, for me. Although we have a great deal of information on the car from the previous owner, it will be a bit of a voyage of discovery this year as we get used to its foibles. I will post what I hope will be interesting snippets as they arise: we took it out at Donington in November just to see what was what before the winter, and to see what work needs to be done. We originally thought that we would convert to Avgas from Methanol, as it is easier to obtain and Methanol cars are notoriously difficult to start when cold: whilst at 5 degrees Centigrade at Donington it was a pig to start, it actually ran beautifully once warmed up, and we did about 30 laps in all, and so we will keep it on Methanol for this year at least.

As I have mentioned in a previous post, I suspect that I will not make the spring start this year but will post again if that changes. I hope to be at Brands hatch 25th/27th may and Silverstone classic on 26/28 July in the UK.

Needless to say anyone is welcome to come over and have a chat about the car and look around it when we are at the races: it is a fantastic and unique piece of kit

Nigel B

Two years late. Methanol engines usually start ok with a squirt of petrol from a squeeze bottle down the intakes. Even when very cold. Starter fluid will probably achieve the same end too ofcourse.

[Derwent Motorsport]

Has anyone heard of Martyn Chapman and his SEL project? It's been a few years since he posted here.

[275 GTB-4]

Fur Seal - ex-Dundrod TT

http://www.prewarcar...make/kieft.html

[StanBarrett2]

Can anyone help me with dimensions of the Kieft GP car.

I am looking for the usual :  Length /Width / Overall height / Wheelbase / Fr & R Tracks