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Kieft GP car races!


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#51 David Beard

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 19:29

Anyone notice the carbs look different in Macca's Donington photo to those at the start of the thread?

Greg Snape is taking an interest in this thread and has sent me the following:

When we first had the car running at Silverstone it was running on petrol. We were using IDF Webbers of Alfasud/Alfa 33 origin. We did this because it was a lot easier to initially get the car going on petrol rather than methanol. The IDFs only required a slight jetting change. This gave us a chance to sort out the rest of the car a bit before we got too carried away with engine development. The engine wasn't really happy on petrol in that first race, the main area of concern was high coolant temperature and I had to "nurse" it a bit in the second half of that first race.

Between that first race at Silverstone and our first Goodwood run, Bill Morris was able to track down some proper period DCNL Webbers. I rebuilt these carbs and set them up to run methanol. This transformed the engine, it was much happier and of course ran much cooler. We have only pulled the engine down once for a look. We had an inlet port that was porous and leaked a little coolant into the port over the winter. The engine has had no other development. It is running an original crank and rods and also a set of original 11:1 comp pistons!! Cams are also original, but I did have trouble with them initially marking the buckets and had to spend a few days stoning off the sharp edges! Incidentally, we do have Coventry Climax drawings of 12.5:1 pistons, but it looked like they didn't try that option in the early days as there were none with the piles of bits! We have been playing with idle jets to try and get a little more response down low. We fitted larger idle jets for Goodwood this year, it was much easier to start when cold, seemed better off the line, stung every body's eyes, but was a bastard to start when it was hot! That is what we were playing about with on Sunday when we started it up.

Unfortunately, we haven't really had the time to do any testing, I usually only get over a few weeks before the events, and that time is used just prepping the car and giving it a test at an airfield. This year was much better being able to give the car a run at the VSCC meeting at Donington. I felt a lot more confident with the car. We have been playing with suspension settings and spring rates and it is starting to work much better. The chassis must be very stiff, as it responds well to small changes. We still have a bit of understeer in fast corners and I'm still not really happy with the turn in so a few more tweeks still to come!!

The Dunlop disc brakes are fantastic and one of the important technical features of the car that are often overlooked. It stops really well and the pedal has a wonderful reassuring feel. I think the brakes would have been the best in the field in 1954, and I'm sure that discs would have been on other cars much earlier as a result.


Thanks Greg!

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#52 David Beard

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 20:11

The Kieft is entered in the Monaco Historique!

Can't wait to hear that noise shaking the buildings :clap:

#53 Barry Boor

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 20:41

Do we assume therefore that the Beards will be in attendance?

#54 David Beard

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 20:55

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Do we assume therefore that the Beards will be in attendance?


Easyjet booked, hotel booked...just need the race tickets :)

#55 Barry Boor

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 22:27

EXCELLENT!

#56 David Beard

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 12:46

The Kieft at Monaco…another good finish.
It was quite easy to photograph, because it never surprised you when it appeared: the bark from those stub exhausts, rattling off the buildings, made you well aware of its approach. The noise was easily distinguishable from anything else.

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#57 David Beard

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 21:13

And now ready for its first race down under?

http://forums.autosp...&threadid=92589

#58 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 22:34

Nahh... it arrived a day to late too make it to the meeting...

And then it was stuck into another container for its return voyage. Three months of its life totally wasted!

#59 Paul Hamilton

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 23:15

Ray, although the Keift was one of the cars in the container which arrived too late for the Tasman revival meeting it was not reloaded for the return journey home with the others and will stay here in Australia for a few meetings. I am not sure just which meetings it will appear at but I suspect we will see it at the 'no frills' HSRCA Wakefield Park meeting on 10/11 February and perhaps also at Phillip Island and/or the April Eastern Creek meeting.

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#60 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 23:26

Oh that is good news, Paul, unlike some of the other cars you unpacked... I might yet see it then...

Thanks for letting me know.

#61 macoran

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 16:00

I am trying to complete my Kieft GP car file, and would like to include a logo or badge.

Anybody have a link or piccie ?

#62 David Beard

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 19:25

Originally posted by macoran
I am trying to complete my Kieft GP car file, and would like to include a logo or badge.

Anybody have a link or piccie ?


http://auta5p.car.cz.../kieft_logo.gif

#63 macoran

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 19:47

Fab David !
Thanks :up:

#64 275 GTB-4

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Posted 30 March 2007 - 07:19

Originally posted by Paul Hamilton
Ray, although the Keift was one of the cars in the container which arrived too late for the Tasman revival meeting it was not reloaded for the return journey home with the others and will stay here in Australia for a few meetings. I am not sure just which meetings it will appear at but I suspect we will see it at the 'no frills' HSRCA Wakefield Park meeting on 10/11 February and perhaps also at Phillip Island and/or the April Eastern Creek meeting.


If anyone should be near Yass, NSW (AUS) tomorrow....you could see the Kieft F1. It will be at the Yass Show. Good article in todays Canberra Times by Ian Crawford :up: The car is fettled and driven by Greg Snape.

A question I have from the article: What was the cellar at Silverstone (where the four Coventry Climax V8 engines were liberated from?).

The article goes on to say the Kieft F1 will attend:

Easter Mallala Historics 07 April
HSRCA Eastern Creek 28-29 April
Winton Historics 26-27 May
Goodwood Revival 1-2 Sep

#65 David Beard

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Posted 30 March 2007 - 20:03

Originally posted by Barry Boor
David, if I were to build a slot-racing Kieft for my Pre-historic series, who would I have driving it? Or in other words, had it raced in 1955, who would have driven it?


Barry...have you moved beyond "if" yet?

#66 Barry Boor

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Posted 30 March 2007 - 22:04

So sorry, David, my 1955-6-7 series is long finished, so I fear the Kieft will remain forever 'one that never got made'.

#67 275 GTB-4

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 07:20

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


If anyone should be near Yass, NSW (AUS) tomorrow....you could see the Kieft F1. It will be at the Yass Show. Good article in todays Canberra Times by Ian Crawford :up: The car is fettled and driven by Greg Snape.

A question I have from the article: What was the cellar at Silverstone (where the four Coventry Climax V8 engines were liberated from?).

The article goes on to say the Kieft F1 will attend:

Easter Mallala Historics 07 April
HSRCA Eastern Creek 28-29 April
Winton Historics 26-27 May
Goodwood Revival 1-2 Sep


Went along to the Yass Show today and thoroughly enjoyed the village atmosphere.....good little show and worth it for the Kieft F1 alone. Had a good chat with Greg and his Father....nice people.

The "cellar" was actually a group of Nissan or Quonsett huts at the circuit....the engines were provided with the names removed from the cam covers (obviously now replaced).

Greg made the comment that the V8 was CCs first racing engine....it preceded the fours etc???

#68 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 23:17

That's right...

Up until then, the SOHC engines were all that had seen the circuit (post-war at least...) and they were used because they were quite light and had reasonable potential for racing. They were, however, made initially for fire pumps.

They were mounted in a frame that could be carried by two men, a pump was driven by the engine and hoses were attached.

There was a racing adaptation of the FWA engine, I don't know what differences there were but I think it was called the FWB. I'm out of my depth with that.

However, as for the making of an engine for the purpose of racing, this was the first. As it wasn't released, however, the FPF was the first that saw a circuit.

The FPF, as I understand it, was essentially one bank of the V8 enlarged to 1500cc for F2 racing. Obviously it had a totally fresh block and crank for the purpose, so really it was just the Godiva head and layout that was used. Later this engine grew step by step to F1 (2500cc) size and beyond, the biggest being the ones used by Eagles while awaiting their V12 in 1966 IIRC. Around 2.8 litres.

#69 David McKinney

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 06:56

Mr GTB and Mr Snape are right
The V8 design preceded the first circuit appearance of the four (though it couldn't have been by much)
Also, the FWB was the 1500 version of the FWA (1100), and I don't think you can really say neither of these was a racing engine

#70 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 19:05

Ah yes, the FWB was enlarged to near 1500cc... thank you David... and that was done to go racing, presumably in F2.

I understand there were some changes made to FWA engines to make them more raceworthy too. But as a basic design, they weren't race engines. I think this is the point.

#71 David McKinney

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 19:25

My point (and 275's) is that, contrary to the general perception, the four-cylinder Coventry Climax engine was not planned as the company's first racing product. Whether or not it was designed from scratch as a racing engine is irrelevant.

The FWB was developed for 1956 sportscar racing. By the time F2 came into force the following year, the FPF was available.

#72 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 19:35

Agreed... my point was that the FPF was derived from the Godiva anyway... so had naturally come later...

275 made no points, simply queried what Greg Snape had told him.

#73 275 GTB-4

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 08:53

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Agreed... my point was that the FPF was derived from the Godiva anyway... so had naturally come later...

275 made no points, simply queried what Greg Snape had told him.


This 275 fellow doth not stand upon points :)

I wasn't querying what Greg said at all...just prompting a discussion on the early developments at Coventry Climax.

#74 Ben Wilson

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 13:53

I was lucky enough to make it along to the Yass show, I grabbed some more pics:

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The Machine

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The Office

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Footwell

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Oil tank and preselector shifter

#75 David Beard

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 16:27

Originally posted by Ben Wilson
I was lucky enough to make it along to the Yass show, I grabbed some more pics:

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The Machine


Nice photos, Thanks Ben. But...I thought for a moment it had gained a rollover bar :eek:

(Not that I would begrudge Greg fitting one if he wanted to...)

#76 275 GTB-4

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 09:07

Originally posted by David Beard
But...I thought for a moment it had gained a rollover bar :eek:

(Not that I would begrudge Greg fitting one if he wanted to...)


Some tracks here will now not take the "risk" of letting people practice etc in a car without belts or roll bar :down:

#77 rl1856

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 15:48

Does anyone have dyno readings for the Godiva, as raced in the present. It would be interesting to compare to what is now known about the "real" output of the Ferrari and Maserati engines as raced back in the day.

Best,

Ross

#78 Karen Hyland

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 12:47

Hi all,

I have been at the Easter Historics at Mallala today and had a chance to see this marvellous car in action.

The sound of the engine is just amazing :love:

It won both races it was in quite convincingly.

Here are a couple of photos that I took of the car today:

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I'll try and get some more pics of it tomorrow :)

Cheers,
Karen

#79 macoran

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 13:41

:up: Fabulous Karen !!!

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#80 275 GTB-4

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 10:07

Ditto Karen....Greg sure seems to be at one with this great machine :up:

#81 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 10:44

Hope you have lots of other stuff from the meeting too, Karen... we haven't heard much from you for ages!

That Ford V8 Special, by the way, really looks so out of place in a pic with the pedigreed Kieft...

#82 2Bob

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 03:02

Saw Karen at Mallala on Saturday (her mum used to race an Elfin Mono about the time when I was racing an Elfin Mono - back in the dim dark ages). Don't know whether she was at Mallala on Sunday but I will get in now with a couple more pictures of the Kieft. Sounded great and was driven with great gusto.

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#83 Sharman

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 14:32

How did the Courier get on the front row, or was it a handicap?

#84 2Bob

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 21:01

Pretty quick Elva I guess - results here:

http://www.natsoft.c...4/2007.MALL.R28

#85 Karen Hyland

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 05:58

Hi again all,

Ray: Due to workcommitments I have been reduced to pretty much lurking only in recent times. I have 3 months off work at the moment, so I hope to be around a bit more.

2Bob: It was good to catch up with you on the weekend. It's a shame the old Elfin my mother used to drive was not over this year.

Here are some more pics of the Kieft from Sunday at Mallala:

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I have over 4gb of pics taken at both at Mallala and the Hillclimb at Collingrove on Monday. I am currently collating the best images to put into an On-Line photogallery.

I will post a link on this forum when it is ready.

Cheers,
Karen

#86 Jonas

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 07:34

It really is a very beautiful racing car!

Btw, does anyone know the name/code for its light green colour?

#87 David Beard

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 16:49

Message from Greg....

We had a nice write up in the "Auto Action" (Australia's
Autosport) from the Mallala Meeting.

Keep your eye out for the "Vintage Racecar" magazine as they spent a
day with us at Wakefield Park in Goulburn to do a feature on the Kieft,
they must have taken hundreds of photos, both on and off track!

Unfortunately we are not running at Eastern Creek on April 28 & 29 but
will definitely be at Winton in Victoria at the end of May.



#88 David Beard

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 16:50

Originally posted by Jonas


Btw, does anyone know the name/code for its light green colour?


Greg says Cyril Kieft chose it, so it is known a Cyril Green!

#89 Jonas

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 17:53

Originally posted by David Beard


Greg says Cyril Kieft chose it, so it is known a Cyril Green!

Ok, I'll make sure to mention that in my local paint shop ;)

The reason I asked is a) it looks really nice, and b) we have a Cooper 500 MkXI in the family that seems to have had a very similar shade in its early days (I've managed to scratch away several layers of paint on some old, unrestored body parts to find it) and it would be nice to re-spray it in this.

#90 David Beard

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 18:53

Originally posted by Jonas

Ok, I'll make sure to mention that in my local paint shop ;)

The reason I asked is a) it looks really nice, and b) we have a Cooper 500 MkXI in the family that seems to have had a very similar shade in its early days (I've managed to scratch away several layers of paint on some old, unrestored body parts to find it) and it would be nice to re-spray it in this.


I think this is a case for Barry Boor....

#91 kaydee

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 03:00

I've only just caught up with this thread and thought that I should re-post a photograph of Kieft designer Gordon Bedson that I had previously posted on another thread.

At that stage Gordon had left Meadows and had come to Adelaide to work on the ill-fated Lightburn Zeta project.
I took this photo of him (in the right background leaning on umbrella) at the Sandown Tasman meeting in March '62

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#92 275 GTB-4

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 10:54

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kaydee At that stage Gordon had left Meadows and had come to Adelaide to work on the ill-fated Lightburn Zeta project.

Thanks Kay Dee.....why ill fated....a brilliant innovation for its time quickly overtaken by progress :up:

#93 HiRich

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 11:29

Originally posted by Jonas
The reason I asked is a) it looks really nice, and b) we have a Cooper 500 MkXI in the family that seems to have had a very similar shade in its early days (I've managed to scratch away several layers of paint on some old, unrestored body parts to find it) and it would be nice to re-spray it in this.

The colour is very similar to the Moss Kieft prototype 500, which I would say is fractionally greener, but perhaps even nicer:
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(picture makes it look darker than it is)
The car (or, with the usual caveats in 500cc racing, what's believed to be the car) is maintained by Tony Steele, who you could trace through www.500race.org

#94 Jonas

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 12:42

Thanks for the tip!

#95 David McKinney

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 13:34

I've been hesitating to post this, because I can't remember why I think so, but wasn't the Beart-Cooper (Moss, Lewis-Evans etc) a similar shade?

#96 kaydee

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 13:47

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kaydee At that stage Gordon had left Meadows and had come to Adelaide to work on the ill-fated Lightburn Zeta project.

Thanks Kay Dee.....why ill fated....a brilliant innovation for its time quickly overtaken by progress :up:
[/QUOTE]
Ill fated in "styling" ....... Harold Lightburn apparently came in one weekend and dramatically changed all of the body styling by adding fins etc. This became a contentious issue with Gordon and one of the reasons why he left Ligthburns and headed to Queensland to open a restaurant.

#97 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 13:49

Ill-fated because of its antiquated mechanical specs, too, I think...

A little 2-stroke engine and all. Those poor guys who drove one in the Ampol Trial must have been awful tired!

#98 fredeuce

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 02:13

I also attended at the Mallala historics in April with my brother and son. We were all very impressed with this car. Managed to take some video footage which i have replayed numerous times.

I have heard plenty of 8 cyl sounds over the years, straight and Vee but those 8 "organ pipes" existing the bodywork on the Kieft provided some excellent music. An absolute aural feast!

Son now has an insight into Coventry Climax engines as well.

#99 Catalina Park

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 09:21

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Ill-fated because of its antiquated mechanical specs, too, I think...

A little 2-stroke engine and all. Those poor guys who drove one in the Ampol Trial must have been awful tired!

I got tired watching the DVD. :p

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#100 HiRich

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 12:32

Originally posted by David McKinney
I've been hesitating to post this, because I can't remember why I think so, but wasn't the Beart-Cooper (Moss, Lewis-Evans etc) a similar shade?

You are probably, broadly, correct. At least for the Moss car. All my Beart shots are b/w so it's difficult to tell, but various shades of silver-apple green were used on Moss' later 500s. My shots of Moss in the Beart-Cooper would appear to be so - I would have difficulty arguing any other colour. Others though were in darker colours.
At the first Goodwood Festival, SM drove a Mk IX Cooper up the drive (though I believe it may have appeared in the programme as a Beart-Cooper). It was in a pale version of this colour - paler even than the GP Kieft. Perhaps that is the memory you have?