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Equal customer engines??


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#1 bobbo

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Posted 27 September 2002 - 13:42

Such as Jordan getting the identical engine Jaguar gets in 2004? Yeah. Right! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This sort of sounds like Sauber getting current spec Ferrari engines.

Has this ever happened in the past? I know that the Climax 1.5 V8s were allegedly equal for Lotus, Cooper, Brabham & Lola (although I suspect that the ones going into Jimmy Clark's Lotus was just a bit MORE equal). And I suapect that the 2.5 Climaxes of the previous formula had the same so-called equality.

Am I forgetting any other similar situations?

Bobbo

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#2 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 September 2002 - 14:49

I wonder how equal the Renault turbos were when they supplied themselves, Lotus, Ligier and Tyrrell. I know for sure they had different specifications like EF4, EF4bis, EF15, the DP versions etc.
But among the same specification gradation, did it matter who got the engine?

Would the Honda V6's for both Lotus and either Williams or McLaren have been equal in '87 and '88?

And of course in the KitKar Era, there were different specification DFV's, depending on who prepared them, ask Mario about the Nicholson DFV's of 1977.....

Henri Greuter

#3 Wolf

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Posted 27 September 2002 - 14:52

I don't think I've ever heard anything about Climax engines being different for various customers, and I'm reluctant to believe in anything like it before I see some evidence... Only preferrential treatment, or something that could be 'stretched' to fit the description, would be in '61 when only two vee-eights were available and were made available for Moss (still being WDC contender) and Brabham. But maybe it was, as I believe it to be, trying to play the best game with the hand one has...

And, I think same could be said of DFV engines. BTW, I think Sauber by contract gets last year's Ferrari engines (and I'd dare to say they didn't need de-tuning for reliability).

#4 petefenelon

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Posted 27 September 2002 - 15:09

Originally posted by Wolf
I don't think I've ever heard anything about Climax engines being different for various customers, and I'm reluctant to believe in anything like it before I see some evidence... Only preferrential treatment, or something that could be 'stretched' to fit the description, would be in '61 when only two vee-eights were available and were made available for Moss (still being WDC contender) and Brabham. But maybe it was, as I believe it to be, trying to play the best game with the hand one has...

And, I think same could be said of DFV engines. BTW, I think Sauber by contract gets last year's Ferrari engines (and I'd dare to say they didn't need de-tuning for reliability).


The two 32-valve Climax engines were slightly different - I can't remember the difference. Jack Brabham's had about 1bhp more than Jim Clark's, but Jack apparently didn't like the power curve of his much...

pete

#5 StickShift

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Posted 27 September 2002 - 15:14

http://www.atlasf1.c...p/id/8331/.html

If you read this, it says that Jordan is not getting the same cosworth engine as Jaguar. They are getting an engine designed specifically for them.

#6 Wolf

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Posted 27 September 2002 - 17:34

Pete- I wouldn't call a 1BHP a difference, it falls within tolerance...

And, of course, there is famous case of preferrential treatment of engine supplier within a team... Not only was Honda developed according to Senna's liking, but the modifications Prost suggested (according to him) were not implemented, even on his engine, and if implemented (like in the case of his win in France) would be removed overnight.

#7 Roger Clark

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Posted 27 September 2002 - 17:52

Surely this all depends on the degree of competition an engine manufacturer is facing. If they are doing a lot of development, there is no way they can give more than one or two customers the latest specification.

THe case of Coventry Climax illustrates this. In early 1959, when the first 2.5litre FPFs were being built they were in short supply and Brabham and Moss were first in te queue. By 1960, the engines were in full production, the competition wasn't very strong and the engines were probably almost equal.

The same thing happend in 1961/62 when the first FWMVs appeared. Brabham and Moss got them first, some teams didn't get them until the middle of 1962. By 1964, the engines were more nearly equal. In 1965, the competition from BRM, Ferrari and Honda was hotting up and Climax developed the 32-valve version. THEy could not make them available for more than the two most successfl teams.

You can see similar patterns in the life of the Cosworth DFV.

Equality of engines indicates lack of competition and is a Bad Thing.

#8 bobbo

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Posted 27 September 2002 - 18:05

Originally posted by StickShift
http://www.atlasf1.c...p/id/8331/.html

If you read this, it says that Jordan is not getting the same cosworth engine as Jaguar. They are getting an engine designed specifically for them.


According to this,

http://www.motorspor...ID=107585&FS=F1

they both will have the same engines in 2004.

I guess we'll see . . .

Bobbo

#9 petefenelon

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Posted 27 September 2002 - 23:29

Originally posted by Wolf
Pete- I wouldn't call a 1BHP a difference, it falls within tolerance...


The Lotus one was Mk VI with slightly less power and more torque,
Brabham was Mk VII with slightly more power and less torque - the
Brabham engine had bigger inlet valves, IIRC....

pete