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Auto Unions in the Soviet Union


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#1 O Volante

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Posted 28 September 2002 - 23:59

In historic car magazines published in Germany significant information on races, racing drivers and cars is rather rare. The latest issue of "Oldtimer-Markt", however, is an exception - and a notable one, I would think: in an eight page article, Mr. Nikolai Alexandrov, an aircraft engineer from Russia, reports the results of his long standing researches about the fate of the Auto Union racing cars confiscated by Soviet authorities at the end of the war.

These are his main findings:

A) In autumn 1945 18 cars were transported by train from Zwickau to the Soviet Union: 13 Auto Union racing cars, plus one BMW 328, one Wanderer W25K, one Jaguar SS100, one Alfa Romeo 6C-2500 and one Alfa Romeo 8C-2900. The cars went to the NAMI - the Research Institut for Automobile Industry and Development - in Moscow.

B) In early 1946 the Soviet Ministry of Automobile Industry set up a work group of engineers to develop racing cars. They had access to the Auto Union cars at the NAMI, studied them intensively and used their knowledge to design and built the bodywork of a streamlined 350cc race car called "Swesda" (="Star"). It used a two-stroke DKW UL359 engine, and looked - not surprisingly - like a mixture of a 1937 Auto Union streamliner and John Cobb's "Railton Mobil Special" record car. Later the Swesda was further modified and developed. In all four Auto Unions were dismantled at the NAMI, among them one streamliner, and thereby destroyed.

C) At around the same time two cars went to the ZIS factory. They had decided to build a sports-car and got the Auto Unions for research purposes. One - a 16 cylinder with friction shock absorbers - was dismantled for closer examination, and later destroyed. The other - a Typ C/D hillclimb car with hydraulic absorbers - was tested without success: apparently the ZIS people had neither an idea how to set up the car nor to make the engine run properly. After that the car was also earmarked for destruction, but some people tried to perserve it and finally succeded - the car went to the Riga car museum, from where Audi obtained it later for a lot of money and a replica ...

D) Still in the immediate post-war period four cars - three Typ D from 1938/39 plus one streamliner - went to the GAS factory in Gorki (today again Nishni Novgorod). They got the cars to build their own racing cars, literaly: they used them part by part - components went into Podeba engined GAS, but also Moskvich and ZIL based racing and sports cars, apparently until nothing was left. One Typ D, however, was destroyed in a horrific crash during a demonstration run near Gorki on June 9, 1946: traveling at high speed on a narrow country road, driver Leonid Sokolov tried to slow down when fascinated spectators moved closer to have a better look on the silver machine. The car spun, flew over a ditch against a lorry and was catapulted back into the spectators. While the driver, who had been thrown out of the car during this, landed in the waters of the ditch and survived heavily injured, 12 persons where immediately killed by the car, and six more died later. (The article attributes the amazing fact that the GAS people were able to make the car run to a load of the right fuel left in the tank!)

E) A little later, around 1950, three cars - two open wheel cars and one 1937 Typ C streamliner - went to Vladimir Nikitin in Charkov, in the Ukraine. He was a racing driver/car constructor, and used the shortened bodywork and other parts of the streamliner to build an - of course - streamlined race car called "Charkov", which used a 4 cylinder Podeba street car engine. In the following years this was developed into the "Charkov 3" (also called "Avangard") and the "Charkov 6". Together with Nikitin another driver/constructor from the Ukraine, Eduard Lorent, had access to the Auto Unions - definitely the streamliner influenced the design of his also streamlined, but small capacity race cars called "Charkov L1" and "Charkov L2". For the two open wheel cars the Ukrainian driver/constructors had no use - these were the cars purchased by Paul Karassik in the 1980s. (The article says Nikitin was still a frequent visitor of the NAMI in later days, and collected only a short time before his death in 1992 a 16 and a 12 cyclinder from them! So far the search for these engines hasn't yielded anything ...)

Conclusion: Only three survivors in Russia - and no hope for more ... Over to the Auto Union experts ...

The source is Nikolai Alexandrow, "Beute-Boliden. Das Schicksal der Auto-Union-Silberpfeile in der Sowjetunion", Oldtimer-Markt, Oktober 2002, pp. 8-15. By the way, the article acknowledges the help of Peter Kirchberg - so it seems to have his OK ...

Mmmmh, and what 2.9 Alfa Romeo went to the Soviet Union, and what happened to it later???


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#2 Holger Merten

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Posted 29 September 2002 - 01:01

O Volante, there are different threads here on TNF, where we discussed the long way to ......of the AU silver arrows. May you have a look:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=38177


http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=10638


I think the conclusion of Mr. Nikolai Alexandrov about some three survivors in Russia is right and possible. And if it is in cooperation with Prof. Kirchberg, I believe it double.

As you wrote for the moment these are:


-The hillclimbing car from Riga ©.
-The two Karassik D-Types: one from 1938, the other from 1939.

But on the other hand, when I was working for Audi ten years ago and Audi was talking with the Karassik, making contracts about using, buying, restoration and so on about the cars. They always told us, there are other Silver arrows in Russia. And we hoped, they are right. But over the years I believe there will be no more car, maybe there are some parts (one of the Karassik cars was also a ruin, it was only a memory of parts).

But by the way in those days by Audi: one evening I got a call from a Russian guy. He would stand in front of the Audi plant, he got my number, if I like to have a look at a car. So after 10 min I was standing in front of a beautiful HORCH 930 V Cabriolet. The Russian made the whole trip from Russia to Ingolstadt with that car. About some 3000 km. Okay, it was an Opel 4-Zyl. engine instead of the nice 3.8l-V8-engine "installed". The car was in good condition, and here is the proof, that there were cars in Russia, which survived the years.

#3 Doug Nye

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Posted 29 September 2002 - 17:28

O Volante - More fantastic material - thanks for sharing it... :)

DCN

#4 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 September 2002 - 21:31

Any chance somebody with a copy of the magazine could scan the article and email me a copy? Pretty please? :D

RichardVitesse@aol.com

:)

#5 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 29 September 2002 - 23:11

O Volante,
Thank you. :up:

#6 Brun

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Posted 30 September 2002 - 14:25

Thanks for the article. It seems to be a translation of the Russian articles which appeared on www.autonet.ru - as mentioned in the 1,5 litre thread.

Cool! :clap:

#7 O Volante

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Posted 30 September 2002 - 15:30

Well, I'm only the messenger ... :blush:

Vitesse: sorry, I do not have a scanner -
Brun: that's well possible! At the end of the article we learn that "Nikolai Alexandrow/Ruspress/mh" are responsible for the text. Alexandrow the autor, Ruspress the agency and mh the editor of text, I would think - and why should the agency not have given the article to others! Unfortunately I can't check, I do not read or speak Russian -

#8 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 September 2002 - 15:33

I wondered if that was the case, Brun. It would have been too much of a coincidence really.

O Volante: no problem! Holger has kindly offered to scan and send it to me.

#9 Holger Merten

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Posted 30 September 2002 - 15:53

I tried to call Professor Kirchberg today; do know him very well from my Audi time. I will post a report here on TNF. And I just like to ask him some other things about war and post war developments from AU. The interesting thing is, that we at Audi always believed in 18 survived cars in 1945.

#10 Egor

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 10:46

1950s(?) Zil .Type C76018
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1974(?) or 1976 Zil
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1976-1979
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Edited by Egor, 19 January 2012 - 14:21.


#11 David McKinney

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 11:10

Wonderful stuff Egor :up:

#12 arttidesco

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 12:25

Extraordinary love the outsize rev counter thanks for sharing these Egor :wave:

#13 bill p

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 14:18


Wow!! Thank you for posting these superb photographs, Egor

#14 Option1

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 14:19

Fabulous, fantastic pics! Thank you Egor.

Neil

#15 jj2728

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 15:57

Fantastic images. Much appreciated.

#16 RA Historian

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 16:44

Just amazing. To come up with these old images and info, after all these years and from behind the Iron Curtain, etc., well, as I said, I am amazed. A big thanks and well done, Egor.
Tom

#17 Cardenas

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 20:51

Awesome photos, and thread I did not know about it till today.


Thanks Egor! =)

#18 RStock

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 21:04

Thank You Egor!!!! :clap: :clap:

#19 Holger Merten

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 21:05

Fantastic stuff. But I came up with the old question, what happened to the other cars? If this one is so well documentated?

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#20 GIGLEUX

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 22:50

And now somebody to translate?!


#21 Egor

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 05:00

Posted Image

Edited by Egor, 19 January 2012 - 10:54.


#22 nivola

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 05:04

This might have to be the images and information find of the year.

I am stunned!!!

#23 Egor

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 05:08

Posted Image

Edited by Egor, 19 January 2012 - 14:19.


#24 Egor

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 05:13


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Edited by Egor, 19 January 2012 - 14:19.


#25 Egor

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 05:14


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Edited by Egor, 19 January 2012 - 14:20.


#26 Egor

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 05:15


Posted Image

Edited by Egor, 19 January 2012 - 14:20.


#27 Egor

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 06:04

sorry for the Google translation :|

The fact that 76,018 were rescued from a factory ZIL-miracle

I suggest an interview with Russian magazine Autopilot with Victor Kulbergs director Motormuseum in Riga
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He was only two years old when he learned to recognize the sound of a diesel, but now he likes to joke that in his blood since childhood was "a high content of petrol". In his youth, dreamed of becoming a pilot, "Formula 1", and indeed once was behind the wheel of a racing car, which started the car collection, which has no, perhaps, on the whole of East Berlin. He speaks with a subtle Baltic accent. Latvians have not made contact by my name, but call it simply by the name of the language is not rotated. Victor Kulbergs - President of the Chamber of Commerce in Latvia, President and CEO of Auto Riga Ltd, official importer of Audi AG in Latvia, but most importantly for us - he was the first director of the Riga Motor Museum.

Autopilot: Mr Kulbergs is now hard to imagine that once there was no grandiose building of the museum, nor hundreds of rare cars that are inside.
KULBERGS: We began really from scratch. In 1972 he registered the first in the USSR avtoantikvarny club, in sight of which were pre-war cars, including left by the Germans in Courland cauldron. Gradually we are overgrown with links throughout the Union, which has resulted in the collection of the club was a real gem - a racing car, "Auto Union", which in the 30's were racers, whose fame is comparable to today's fame Schumacher.
In April 1976 I received a call from Leningrad, a prominent Soviet avtoinzhener [b] Prof. William Beckman Vilgelmovich [/ b] and literally screamed into the phone: [b] "President, do something!" Those asshole on ZIL want to cut the "Auto Union" [ / b]. I phoned to ZILom, and I have confirmed: [b] "Yeah, depends on the balance of this junk. Right in the Leninist Saturday are going to cancel and cut "[/ b]. I remained for two weeks. For the first I had to make letters with strong signatures, in particular the chairman of the State Planning Commission of Latvia. Monday was already in Moscow, the receptionist Minavtoproma, and then a few days collecting signatures at the factory to them. Likhachev - from the director until rasposlednego accountant. On Friday tape was over, and in my hands was an act of "round-trip." Now I had to find a car - last seen about fifteen years ago.

In the yard of the factory was welded shed about fifty meters in length. Found the key, opened the gate, and there trash to the ceiling - not something that "Auto Union" can not see, can not even go. Pulled down a long time - motors, pieces of bodies ... In the farthest corner found something icky, resembling "Auto Union". With barely hooked, pulled truck on the street. Consider: sixteen pots - a machine for mountain races in 1938! Front hood was not, the side panels were not. The engine is intact, and the compressor was lying nearby - instead on the motor was a direct output-pipe, it was evident that the car "felt" without a compressor. Half an hour later closed checkpoint, and I'm without a vehicle, with a single portfolio. Miraculously, on the third gate stood empty ZIL-130, which was supposed to go to Riga for the RAF. This whole story - the parade of planets, a rare coincidence.

Autopilot: And a year later, judging by the photos on your wall, the machine went ...
KULBERGS: In our country the information was not enough - the Soviet riders who have studied after the war, exported from Germany technique, there is little they could to help us. With regard to foreign countries, we somehow managed to correspond with colleagues from Czechoslovakia and even Finland. In the end, the guys at Rafe calculated and machined jets for the carburetor. My father was a tinsmith, but I do have the second digit in the profession - we stamped the front hood. It's amazing just managed to make the grille: in those years for the confectionery factory "Laima" was purchased gedeerovskoe ventilation equipment and the profile of the grid was exactly the same - the Germans have not decided to reinvent. Working mixture prepared according to original recipes - ether, light petrol, castor oil, bought almost all Riga pharmacies ...
In short, we managed to bring the car in a more or less decent form in September 1977 to show his audience, which at Bikernieki road gathered the seventy-odd thousand. First dragged, "Auto Union" a few laps on the rope. And on the line "start-finish" guys unhooked me, I let the clutch pedal and the car in second gear was got. I had driven three hundred meters, but the feeling was incredible. Think about it: behind, as the Dome organ, buzzing sixteen cylinders!
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Autopilot: Sixteen cylinders, seventy thousand spectators, correspondence with foreign enthusiasts ... While such activities are likely controlled by the KGB?
KULBERGS: At first it was really easy. Least because in Soviet times, even to the owner of one car looked suspicious, but many of us they were three or even more. In addition, any interest in Western technology was considered a bourgeois propaganda, as if the car is German, then to "fascism" was near. Just a few years we have managed to turn public opinion for a hundred and eighty degrees. We did it instinctively, without even knowing what a "Public rileyshns. Here then, in 1977, the news agency "Novosti" have taken on global channels, information about our rally under the banner: "Look, they say, how people live culturally in the Soviet Union, not only in the forest jerseys climb ..."
A year later, to us from California, said one Mr Gary Payne. He ran in the magazine to photograph "Auto Union", and for people who understand it is holy, for which you can go on a crusade. So he went. From Moscow to Riga, while foreigners could only reach by air and only under secret surveillance by the KGB. Of course, seeing the car, he immediately wanted to buy it.

Autopilot: Well, it's that you would not let just anybody!
KULBERGS: Oh no, here the problem is different. We were by then already an old bird, and knew that to sell something to a foreigner for dollars - a stupid idea, because all currencies will remain in Moscow. In Tula, I spoke with the famous inventor Gurevich, who had a "Bugatti" - one of the first cars released in 1913. In the late 60's through the mediation of "Avtoeksporta" he sold it abroad without receiving a penny. True, "Avtoeksport" too "Navariya" twelve thousand dollars - the car was worth much more expensive. In addition, the idea that we can sell the "Auto Union", was for us the psychological drama.

Autopilot: And how could he be?
KULBERGS: Several years ago, another survivor of the racing car brand was sold at auction for four and a half million dollars. In those days it cost if cheaper, not much. And it just was not served us bad service.
One member of the Politburo was in the early eighties in the West on a business trip and saw that people there are just crazy about old cars and are willing to pay for them "gold" - the word "currency" was then the criminal connotation. Once home, he realized that "we have this stuff too short." Minavtopromu, Avtoeksportu, the Ministry of Culture commissioned to conduct an audit and report, as we have, in the Soviet Union, things with old cars: how many of them, what condition and what money they can help out. By that time, similar to our clubs were already in Moscow, Leningrad, Kaunas, Tallinn, Kharkiv ... And although some jealousy present - who was the first where that will have time to get - we were "one religion", and together we managed to convince the authorities that trade is immoral historical values.

Autopilot: But the historical value, like art, should "belong to the people" rather than stand on private garages even the most wonderful club ...
KULBERGS: Purpose built Motor-Museum "from the early days was recorded in the Charter of our club. By the way, knew about this and our Californian admirer, who in the early 80's offered for "Auto Union" is not money, and the draft contract, on which, in exchange for a car he undertook to build a museum building in Riga. This project contract, we "shame" and the Council of Ministers of the USSR State Planning Committee, and in 1985 they decided to finance the construction avtomuzeya.

Autopilot: The museum owns all of the exhibits?

KULBERGS: No, almost half - private cars whose owners have quite reasonably decided that here to keep them safer. At any moment they can go to rally Consultations Contacts Excursions, ride a wedding or shoot for your magazine. Also the main and most valuable artifacts were acquired at the time the club and now owned by the museum. So, I had long talks with her daughters Gorky and persuaded them to sell the Lincoln proletarian writer. It cost us eleven and a half thousand rubles - in 1985 as worth a couple of new Zhiguli. For Rolls-Royce, which Brezhnev himself put on the truck on the Leningrad prospectus in 1980, we listed the cast of the Moscow Military District, three thousand three hundred fifty-four rubles seventy cents. Stalin's armored car, as well as "Auto Union", just rewrote a balance on the balance sheet. Sometimes matters are dealt with phone calls and bottles of brandy.

Autopilot: Unfortunately, in Russia, all attempts to create a public collection vehicles have not been successful - all either left to you, or even further west, or turned into scrap metal. Why do you got, and we have - no?
KULBERGS: Motor-Museum "I was able to" take out ", observing a total conspiracy of the enemies, which could hinder or jinx. Although we, too, turned out not all. After the collapse of the Soviet Union a lot of valuable cars from private collections drove off to the West. Qualitatively restore our pearl - "Auto Union" - we ourselves were not able to. We would like to have a living machine, but the body has become a foil, the engine, a resource which originally was "training and one race", the restoration is also not subject to, other parts could really put that on the sideboard. No one could restore a car other than a reproduction of worn out parts. "Auto Union" was sent to "Audi AG, and from there to the UK for restoration.

When the British conjured over the engine, to them, as they believe could reveal "the secret of Dr. Porsche: Why sixteen cylinders together provide more power than the power of each individual cylinder, multiplied by sixteen. It turns out, the doctor laid there a "chemistry", which is today except that the computer can calculate: each cylinder creates added compression to boost the neighboring cylinders. In total, this gives, as it were still the seventeenth cylinder - a dynamic effect which can not detect stationary. So, to achieve something, not enough to be an enthusiast and a dreamer. We need to know it. Only in this way, you may receive the seventeenth cylinder.

Autopilot ©

from myself I want to add that the president lied us a little bit, the car fails to start
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Edited by Egor, 19 January 2012 - 11:05.


#28 Egor

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 08:37

Posted Image

Edited by Egor, 19 January 2012 - 10:54.


#29 elansprint72

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 14:33

What a remarkable thread! Fabulous, thanks for posting.

#30 Cardenas

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 15:11

I want to ask 2 questions that I have long been interested in:

1. Several sources I've read about the project Auto Union Rekordvagen-where Berndt had to compete with Sir Campbell. In winter 1937-1938, this project has already existed on paper. This information may be at least part of the truth?

2. Two years ago ebаy been exposed to a full set of photos of the Rosemeyer accident.

Unfortunately I still have only a picture of very poor quality. Does anyone have them yet?



Hello Egor, here you have fotos of the Rosemeyer accident - Link

And here you can read in english what really happened - link


Thanks again for your posts. :up:

#31 Egor

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 15:45

Thank you!

I read those articles before.

Yes, these are the photos. Missing only 2 photos of the body Rosemeyer that probably not laid out for ethical reasons.

I have one post-war picture, which so far no one can identify
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we can assume that it is done around the same time as this

April 1945, Zwickau. The time of distillation racing AU from the mine back to the factory. Behind the wheel - the only one who was then working at the plant specialist to service them (all the others were at the front, and he was freed by age) - Max Breeze. And it's generally the two most recent photos of them in Germany. Next began the Soviet period.
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Edited by Egor, 07 January 2011 - 16:15.


#32 Egor

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 16:05

Posted Image

Edited by Egor, 19 January 2012 - 10:55.


#33 Gary C

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 17:01

I have long been fascinated by tales fo the Auto Union (s) in the Soviet Republic after the war. Anyone remember that TV documentary 'The Search for the Silver Arrow'?

#34 elansprint72

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 18:58

Some time ago I found a great archive, but I can not open it.


Everything opens up OK for me from your link. Thanks.


#35 RStock

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 19:36

This might have to be the images and information find of the year.

I am stunned!!!


Indeed. This is amazing!

#36 O Volante

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 20:17

Wonderful new information! But because of, sorry, the language barrier, I can't read a word myself.
Therefore, I can't look myself for answers for the question I posted at the start of this thread and I'm still most interested in: Besides the Auto Unions, did the Soviets really get a 2.9 Alfa Romeo? And what happend to the car?

#37 elansprint72

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 22:47

Wonderful new information! But because of, sorry, the language barrier, I can't read a word myself.
Therefore, I can't look myself for answers for the question I posted at the start of this thread and I'm still most interested in: Besides the Auto Unions, did the Soviets really get a 2.9 Alfa Romeo? And what happend to the car?



Can you find an online translator? Which language do you want to go from and too? Perhaps someone here can help?

#38 jj2728

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 23:48

This is quite simply phenomenal. Thank you again Egor.

Edited by jj2728, 08 January 2011 - 00:21.


#39 RStock

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 02:10

This seems a good place to bring this question up, as perhaps Egor will have some info. I found this photo awhile back, a Russian streamliner speed record car...

http://www.dkw.co.za/75.html

at this site...

http://www.dkw.co.za...e_gallery5.html

I did some checking around and found another site (whose name I unfortunatly can't recall) with another photo of I believe the same car . This site said the car was reportedly built either with AU designs or perhaps even parts. But they also said the story wasn't true, although they didn't seem to be a definitive source. It is a complete mystery to me. Anyone know anything about this car?

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#40 Egor

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 04:14

Posted Image

Edited by Egor, 19 January 2012 - 14:22.


#41 Egor

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 07:08

Until now, there are things related to team

Box from the starter

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Edited by Egor, 08 January 2011 - 07:08.


#42 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 10:36

The first thing that struck me about these 2 photos is how similar the handle and clasps on the box are to WW2 German ammo boxes. Fascinating photos again Egor. Many thanks!

#43 Cardenas

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 12:17

Thank you!

I read those articles before.

Yes, these are the photos. Missing only 2 photos of the body Rosemeyer that probably not laid out for ethical reasons.


Well, I'm glad I've have not seen those two photos.

I'd rather remember him smiling. :)

Posted Image




#44 tbolt

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 13:15

This seems a good place to bring this question up, as perhaps Egor will have some info. I found this photo awhile back, a Russian streamliner speed record car...

http://www.dkw.co.za/75.html

at this site...

http://www.dkw.co.za...e_gallery5.html

I did some checking around and found another site (whose name I unfortunatly can't recall) with another photo of I believe the same car . This site said the car was reportedly built either with AU designs or perhaps even parts. But they also said the story wasn't true, although they didn't seem to be a definitive source. It is a complete mystery to me. Anyone know anything about this car?


Your picture looks like the Kharkov 6

http://www.lsrinmin.....html#kharkov_6

#45 RStock

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 21:50

Thank you for your positive feedback! I have read the legend about the fate of the Auto Union in the Soviet Union in the Russian motorsport magazine in 2001 and tried to find as much information

REDARMYSOJA, it may be part of the truth.

100% sure that the Soviets used the racers did on the AU in their cars: GAZ Metelev racer (racing Victory) left the memories of its kind - for Victory was a Rootes supercharger racing AC, and the inscriptions with the Pirelli tires were cut dental bormashinkoy ... Kurbatov - steering wheels of racing AU, we put on a racing ZILy back in 1964 ... And more! Look at the picture with the Avangard-3.

Posted Image

Here is not tucked away spitsovannye AC drives, and the whole machine - fully German. Pomogaybo added only two air intakes behind the fairing added aircraft type, and completely forge a nose. Why does your nose has changed? And because it crashed into a wall in the first race at the plant. Ambrosenkov on their cars put candles on the AU.

There is information that the candles were working in different designs until the mid 80s!

In the Soviet race car Moskvich T2 stood tachometer with Auto Union


Egor, thank you so much for all the information and photos. They are just wonderful. Please keep them coming.

#46 speedman13

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 12:08

I have long been fascinated by tales fo the Auto Union (s) in the Soviet Republic after the war. Anyone remember that TV documentary 'The Search for the Silver Arrow'?


See the thread "Mercedes-Benz W154 in Romania"

#47 Brun

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 20:17

I'm amazed by the things that sometimes still turn up through this forum... :eek:

Great stuff! Thanks very much.

#48 Alexander M

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 17:19

REDARMYSOJA, it may be part of the truth.

100% sure that the Soviets used the racers did on the AU in their cars: GAZ Metelev racer (racing Victory) left the memories of its kind - for Victory was a Rootes supercharger racing AC, and the inscriptions with the Pirelli tires were cut dental bormashinkoy ... Kurbatov - steering wheels of racing AU, we put on a racing ZILy back in 1964 ... And more! Look at the picture with the Avangard-3.

Posted Image

Here is not tucked away spitsovannye AC drives, and the whole machine - fully German. Pomogaybo added only two air intakes behind the fairing added aircraft type, and completely forge a nose. Why does your nose has changed? And because it crashed into a wall in the first race at the plant. Ambrosenkov on their cars put candles on the AU.

There is information that the candles were working in different designs until the mid 80s!

In the Soviet race car Moskvich T2 stood tachometer with Auto Union



Egor, first of all thank you for the outstanding photos and documents you have posted.

But at the same time, my two cents about this story regarding Auto Unions being rebuilt into Soviet record cars. There's still no proof of this other than some visual similarity, and comparing pictures of various Pomogaibo's cars with streamlined Auto Unions you can note different proportions - wheelbase, similar but still different body lines and so on. I still think Mr.Alexandrov was mistaken on this fact and what we can see is a result of borrowing ideas from AU racers, but not the cars themselves. Even though I haven't read his book, I've seen a part of it which concerns Soviet racing machinery and can sadly state that there are many mistakes in photo captures alone - wrongly identified cars, years and people to name a few, which doesn't let me just believe his stories without any proof.

Edited by Alexander M, 20 January 2011 - 17:20.


#49 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 17:45

Kurbatov - steering wheels of racing AU, we put on a racing ZILy back in 1964 ...

A Swedish friend of mine, the present-day owner of the one of the 112S, compared by my request the steering wheel of his ZIL with the detailed photos of the AU ones. His answer was short and definite: this is NOT an Auto Union wheel. And so on... Egor, before posting rubbish like this please try to find some serious arguments - other than "Mr. Alexandrov says that..." A bit more critical attitude to what he wrote in his book - and there wouldn't be a stone standing left of it. I hope my friend .ru would join the discussion - he is a better specialist in the "Silver Arrows" story than I am.

#50 24hourman

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 19:34

A Swedish friend of mine, the present-day owner of the one of the 112S, compared by my request the steering wheel of his ZIL with the detailed photos of the AU ones. His answer was short and definite: this is NOT an Auto Union wheel. And so on... Egor, before posting rubbish like this please try to find some serious arguments - other than "Mr. Alexandrov says that..." A bit more critical attitude to what he wrote in his book - and there wouldn't be a stone standing left of it. I hope my friend .ru would join the discussion - he is a better specialist in the "Silver Arrows" story than I am.


I have been watching this thread with fascination especially with some of the photos that have come to light. Am I wrong in thinking that this comment is a bit strong or is it just a translation thing.