62 replies to this topic

[Brun]

Something struck me as odd, today.

Auto Unions are always marked as Typ C, D, etcetera. Yet in the Chemnitz archives, I never found any reference to these types. AU classified its cars in terms like R-wagen (recordcar), bergrennwagen (hillclimber) or 3 Liter-Wagen (three-litre-car). Never does anyone use words like Typ A or C-type.

So, then, there it is, satisfy my curiosity, bring me the answer, please DO something to solve this mystery Who came up with these markings?

[Holger Merten]

Not bad Brun? Don't have a solution right now.

But as I wrote on another thread, they and the Mercedes also never were called Silverarrows, for example in advertising, on posters or in the Auto Union client magazines. May Eberan von Eberhorst used this alphabetical order in his article for autpomobil revue in 1948 first. I have to look in this article, when I'll come home, there is a lot to do here in the office the whole day. So please wait.

But the question is really good. Really. Never thought about it.

[WGD706]

I found a link to an Auto Union information site; from reading some of the basics, it sounds like each succeeding model had something "new and improved" to make it significantly different from the previous model...transmission, front and/or rear suspension, brakes, wheelbase and weight.
http://www.auto-unio...o/cars/cars.htm
(Bottom of page, under specifications)
Warren

[Leif Snellman]

As can be seen from the old documents in Kirschberg's book they were just called Typ 1934, Typ 1935 Typ 1936 and so on! Oh, are none of the old "truths" sacred here at TNF? ;)

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Brun
.....Auto Unions are always marked as Typ C, D, etcetera. .....Who came up with these markings?

Excellent question, Brun.
My initial gut feeling leads me again to Laurence Pomeroy, because he was such an influential writer, who wrote thoroughly about Grand Prix cars. I will return with more.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Here some source information to trace down the originator. Please add other books or magazines before 1950.

1947 – Jenkinson, “’Motor Sport’ Racing Car Review” ----- 3-litre 1938 AutoUnion
1949 – Pomeroy, “The Grand Prix Car” ----- Type A, B, C.
1967 – Posthumus, “The 16-cylinder G.P. Auto Union” ----- Type A, B, C.
1969 – Ludvigsen, “The Auto Union Grand Prix Car” in Automobile Quarterly, Vol. 8, No. 1 ----- Type A, B, C, D.
1979 – Cancellieri, DeAgostini, Schröder “AUTO UNION Die großen Rennen 1934-39” ----- Typ A, B, C, D, E.
1980 – Knittel, AUTO UNION Grand Prix Wagen ----- Typ A, B, C, D, E.
1982 – Kirchberg, “GRAND-PRIX-REPORT Auto Union 1934-1939” -----

[Holger Merten]

Brun,

as I said in an issue of the automobilrevue (No. 16 in 1948- three years after WW2) (sic), the oldest European car magazine (published in Bern/Switzerland), Eberan explains on six pages the development and the technical features of the Auto Union Silverarrows. He is talking in the text about forms. Form I (Typ A), Form II (Lucca record car), Form III (Typ C), Form IV (Typ Streamliner Avus 1937), Form V (Typ D), Form VI (Typ Streamliner, for record attempts in 1938). He is always talking about years, like Leif wrote, in combination with engines. but there is a chart with technical descriptions of the several engine-types and here first of all we find the different types:
1934 (A), 1935, (B), 1936©, 1937 (R-Racing with the 6.33 ccm-engine for record attempts). But he only compares the engines. But this is the first published article about the AU Silverarrows, and I believe, that this article starts the Auto Union alphabet.

Also in Earl Camerons "Investigation into the development of the German Grand Prix Racing Cars 1934 -1937", first published in 1948 for the British Intelligence Objectives Sub Committee", there is no word about A/B/C/D/E Types. He always describes the cars with the-engine data combination with the years. For example: Auto Union 3-litre-1938/39.

Later on in GDR a book was published, titled: Die deutschen Rennfahrzeuge" (The German racing cars). It was printed in 1956. But no word about the A/B/C/D/E Types. Edler/Roedinger used the same system that Cameron.

No the investigation is open. Auto Union was talking in their reports and documents from models in combination of the year: "Rennwagen Modell 1936".

The first publications in the 70ies used the Eberhorst system to describe technical data of the different versions, and than I think it gets usual to use the alphabet system for the different types. It was so easy. Wasn't it?

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
1947 – Jenkinson, “’Motor Sport’ Racing Car Review” ----- 3-litre 1938 AutoUnion
1949 – Pomeroy, “The Grand Prix Car” ----- Type A, B, C.
1967 – Posthumus, “The 16-cylinder G.P. Auto Union” ----- Type A, B, C.
1969 – Ludvigsen, “The Auto Union Grand Prix Car” in Automobile Quarterly, Vol. 8, No. 1 ----- Type A, B, C, D.
1979 – Cancellieri, DeAgostini, Schröder “AUTO UNION Die großen Rennen 1934-39” ----- Typ A, B, C, D, E.
1980 – Knittel, AUTO UNION Grand Prix Wagen ----- Typ A, B, C, D, E.
1982 – Kirchberg, “GRAND-PRIX-REPORT Auto Union 1934-1939” -----

Here is the gap between 1947 and 1949, and the article of the automobilrevue in1948, I think Hans didn't look deep enough in his TNF-office archive.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
As can be seen from the old documents in Kirschberg's book they were just called Typ 1934, Typ 1935 Typ 1936 and so on! Oh, are none of the old "truths" sacred here at TNF? ;)

Brun, some time ago I thought about this since while poring through Kirschberg's they are simply 'Typ 1934' and so forth -- I have the feeling that as Hans points out this is perhaps an ex post facto designation..... Personally, I started using 'Typ 1934' usw, some years ago since it seemed to make more sense to me, but used the 'Typ A' usw, when communicating with others since that was what seemed to be the accepted form.

[Holger Merten]

And one point more.

As you can imagine, the new Auto Union in Ingolstadt was also proud about the silverarrows they were responsible for or they constructed between 1934-1939. So I have some copies of speeches (often the same persons than before the war like Bruhn, Werner, Hahn, Siebler, Rauch, Schlüter and so on, they all went to the west) and while talking proud about the history of the Auto Union and the Silverarrows; nobody ever used that A/B/C/D/E Typ system in the 50ies. Never.

[Holger Merten]

One more point more.

Hans Stuck in his book :"Zweimal Hans Stuck",(senior and junior. published in 1972.) No word about the alphabetical Typ system. But Hans knew very well the Mercedes-W-system and the never raced T-80 by name.

And once again:

Manfred von Brauchitsch:"Kampf um Meter und Sekunden" (okay he drove for MB ans had some other problems with himself). No word about that A-D-Typ.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
.....I think Hans didn't look deep enough in his TNF-office archive.

Holger,
Hans did indeed look deep enough in his book case but could not find any references published in 1948. For that reason he recommended a search for other sources dating back before 1950.

[Holger Merten]

Elly Beinhorn, wrote a book about her husband Bernd Rosemeyer in the year he died: 1938. She didn't use the alphabetical Typ-system. Hans, any suggestions... from your archive. Sometimes I'd like to have a look in your book-library.

[Holger Merten]

Auto Union annual reports from 1933 -1938 (anybody has a copy of 1939 - 1945?). No word about the Typ-system. Auto Union always talked about the racing cars for the season in combination with the year.

[Holger Merten]

Peter Kirchberg published a book in 1985: Audi, DKW, Horch IFA: 80 Jahre Geschichte der Autos aus Zwickau (80 years of the history of the cars from Zwickau), page 150. I translate:"The change between the racing seasons from 1934 to 1935 for the later on declared A and B-Typ Racing cars (...).

[Holger Merten]

Hans

Who deep are you?

[Holger Merten]

Keith Ayling, The Auto Union Guide, published in 1961 in New York is talking about the V16-C-Typ. I think the roots are between 1947 and 1949. Maybe Eberan von Eberhorst?

[Holger Merten]

August Horch: the founder of Horch (1899) and Audi (1909) wrote his biographie in 1937. He was at memebr of the board of directors of the Auto Union, gave Carraciola the chance to get a racing driver license, didn't wrote in his book: "Ich baute Autos" (I built uo cars) anything about the alphabetical Typ system. I think it came up after the war. Before 1950.

[Hans Etzrodt]

1938 – Bretz, “BERND ROSEMEYER Ein Leben für den deutschen Sport” ----- no alpha designation
1938 – Bretz, “Mannschaft und Meisterschaft, Eine Bilanz der Grand-Prix-Formel 1934-1937” ----- no alpha designation
1938 – Monkhouse, “Motor Racing with Mercedes-Benz” ----- no alpha designation
1947 – Jenkinson, “’Motor Sport’ Racing Car Review” ----- 3-litre 1938 AutoUnion, no alpha designation
1948 – Monkhouse, “Motor Racing with Mercedes-Benz” ----- no alpha designation
1949 – Pomeroy, “The Grand Prix Car” ----- Type A, B, C.
1950 – Molter &Wörner, “German Racing Cars and Drivers” ----- no alpha designation
1952 – Sebastian, “Hinter dröhnenden Motoren” ----- no alpha designation
1967 – Posthumus, “The 16-cylinder G.P. Auto Union” ----- Type A, B, C.
1969 – Ludvigsen, “The Auto Union Grand Prix Car” in Automobile Quarterly, Vol. 8, No. 1 ----- Type A, B, C, D.
1979 – Cancellieri, DeAgostini, Schröder “AUTO UNION Die großen Rennen 1934-39” ----- Typ A, B, C, D, E.
1980 – Knittel, AUTO UNION Grand Prix Wagen ----- Typ A, B, C, D, E.
1982 – Kirchberg, “GRAND-PRIX-REPORT Auto Union 1934-1939” ----- no alpha designation

[Holger Merten]

Hans, may its the article by Eberhorst?;)

As you can see I use smilies now

[Wolf]

I don't have much to add to discussion, save that my Bible (Automobiltechnisches handbuch, Berlin, 1942) - the source of those photos I posted in separate thread a while ago identifies the car as 1937 Auto Union Rennwagen, no mention of letters...

[Brun]

Cool.... I just tossed a quick question over the TNF-fence before I headed home from work. And look! There are people across the entire globe digging through personal archives and scratching their heads to come up with an answer. Ah, the miracles of the 'Net...

But still, no answer Keep trying folks, I'm truly curious!

[Leif Snellman]

What does Ludwig Sebastian say in "Hinter dröhnenden Motoren" ?
(I have never read that book as some ***** stole the Helsinki main library copy ages ago.)

[Holger Merten]

Brun, isn't it enough? Hans? Leif, yes I'm searching this book too. Wolf, which thread.

And Brun, there was an article in the automobilrevue in 1946. But I don't have that one. But we are in switzerland. And on monday I'll have a copy (I hope, cause switzerland changed the last ten years.) Maybe on monday....Good night.

[Wolf]

Holger - Auto Union Photos.

[Barry Lake]

Originally posted by Don Capps


.... Personally, I started using 'Typ 1934' usw, some years ago since it seemed to make more sense to me, but used the 'Typ A' usw, when communicating with others since that was what seemed to be the accepted form.

Am I the only person here who doesn't know what a "usw" is?

Reminds me of the time I was co-driving in a rally that had route instructions only in French. I asked the driver, "Do you know what a (three capital letters) is?" He answered, "No. Why?" and I said, "Because I think there is going to be one in the middle of the road around the next corner." It could have been a large pothole, a rock, dead cow, who knows what... Turned out to be a huge mobile crane!

So now I am carefully tip-toeing through this thread to avoid being caught out badly by an unsighted usw just around the next corner. I don't yet know what I should do when I encounter one.

By the way, Brun, great to see someone come up with a question that so many of us should have asked many moons ago.

I can't help wondering if it didn't all start with some writer (perhaps even Pomeroy) writing something like, "...to avoid confusion, I will refer here to the various models as Type A, Type B...even though these are not official designations..." And then a sub-editor cut out that portion of the text so the copy would fit on the page...

Such small changes, which can lead to potentially large misunderstandings, have been inflicted on me on more than one occasion. But none, that I know of, have changed the course of history, as this one appears to have done.

[David McKinney]

usw = und so weiter or "and so on" - equivalent of English writers saying etc (which probably confuses German speakers....)

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
I can't help wondering if it didn't all start with some writer (perhaps even Pomeroy) writing something like, "...to avoid confusion, I will refer here to the various models as Type A, Type B...even though these are not official designations..." And then a sub-editor cut out that portion of the text so the copy would fit on the page...

Barry, nice rallyestory , but after all, when did Pomeroy used it, which year, which source.... Those speculations don't make this thread easier.

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Here some source information to trace down the originator. Please add other books or magazines before 1950.

1947 – Jenkinson, “’Motor Sport’ Racing Car Review” ----- 3-litre 1938 AutoUnion
1949 – Pomeroy, “The Grand Prix Car” ----- Type A, B, C.
1967 – Posthumus, “The 16-cylinder G.P. Auto Union” ----- Type A, B, C.
1969 – Ludvigsen, “The Auto Union Grand Prix Car” in Automobile Quarterly, Vol. 8, No. 1 ----- Type A, B, C, D.
1979 – Cancellieri, DeAgostini, Schröder “AUTO UNION Die großen Rennen 1934-39” ----- Typ A, B, C, D, E.
1980 – Knittel, AUTO UNION Grand Prix Wagen ----- Typ A, B, C, D, E.
1982 – Kirchberg, “GRAND-PRIX-REPORT Auto Union 1934-1939” -----

Originally posted by Holger Merten

as I said in an issue of the automobilrevue (No. 16 in 1948- three years after WW2) (sic), the oldest European car magazine (published in Bern/Switzerland), Eberan explains on six pages the development and the technical features of the Auto Union Silverarrows. He is talking in the text about forms. Form I (Typ A), Form II (Lucca record car), Form III (Typ C), Form IV (Typ Streamliner Avus 1937), Form V (Typ D), Form VI (Typ Streamliner, for record attempts in 1938). He is always talking about years, like Leif wrote, in combination with engines. but there is a chart with technical descriptions of the several engine-types and here first of all we find the different types:
1934 (A), 1935, (B), 1936©, 1937 (R-Racing with the 6.33 ccm-engine for record attempts). But he only compares the engines. But this is the first published article about the AU Silverarrows, and I believe, that this article starts the Auto Union alphabet.

[Brun]

Well, seems to be an autopress invention then? Well, thanks for all answers

[Doug Nye]

What a stunningly intriguing thread....

Certainly my own understanding of Auto Union Type classification is directly traceable via Cyril Posthumus and Jenks to Pom and since Pom was on very good terms with Eberan, I have little doubt that he drew his interpretation of the model differentiation from the great man - either by personal interview or perhaps from the cited magazine feature. When I spoke with Eberan in later years he certainly used the A-Type, C-Type etc then as if by habit...

It would be absolutely like Pom to derive material from one such august source and adopt it absolutely as his gospel. But I do have a feeling that I have seen a pre-war attribution of X-Type Auto Union - whether A, B, C or D I cannot remember - in one of the contemporary magazines.

I haven't got time to hunt for it specifically, but these things usually come to light at some time if one remembers there is at least a question...

Wonderful piece of detail anyway...like BRM 'P25' cars...

DCN

PS - Oh yes, and who invented the 'Alfabet' - wasn't this 10 to 1 on the 158s winning?

[Holger Merten]

Doug,

help me out
1.) I'm too young for Posthumus and Co.

2.) And to far away from the Anglo-Saxon scene.

So, who is Pom? And did Eberan meet Posthumus during his years for ERA and Aston Martin?

I will post a copy of the parts from the automobilrevue on this thread. Cause if you'll read the article, you could understand, that Eberan is talking about body-forms in combination with engines.

But if he only descirbed the engines, than there are A-D types. Seems to be logical, if you know that AU raced in different engine-combinations with different bodies. For example modified C-Type bodies, with the 12-cyl.-engines at the beginning of the 1938 season (3L-formula) or the hillclimbing cars with the D-Type body, but the 16-cyl.-engines. May they used it internal in the Rennabteilung (Raceing dept.). But I didn't found anything in copies of Auto Union pre war documents. It's speculation.

[dmj]

Holger,

Pom = Pomeroy.

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
(...) and Jenks to Pom and since Pom was on very good terms with Eberan, I have little doubt that he drew his interpretation of the model differentiation from the great man - either by personal interview or perhaps from the cited magazine feature.

And who is Jenks

[jarama]

Holger,

Jenks is the famous Jenkinson.

Carles.

[Doug Nye]

Sorry - not paying attention. Dmj and Carlos are correct of course - here Pomeroy was always 'Pom' and it's a similar reflex when typing thoughts rapidly onto the keyboard to use Jenks for Denis Jenkinson. I apologise - but I think most here would have recognised the names from this context. Cyril Posthumus did indeed meet and know Eberan during his English industry period, but remember he was only a private soldier, whereas Pomeroy was officer class and would have far more stature in conversation with the faintly aristocratic and so notable German engineer...

DCN

[Holger Merten]

Thanks guys, sorry, I'm too much involved from a german point of view. I entered the Anglo-Saxon scene in the last year. And as you know as well, if you will get some old sources, it's not so easy or expensive.

Thanks to you and TNF: Now I'm updated on this thread.

[917]

Doug,

excuse me for being pedantic, but Robert Eberan von Eberhorst was as German as Sir John Young Stewart is English: he was born in Vienna (Austria) on 4 April 1902, received his title Dr.-Ing. (Doctor of Engineering Sciences) in 1927 and came then to Germany (Technical University of Dresden).

With kind regards
Michael

[Holger Merten]

917

Eberan von Eberhorst was austrian. Later on Eberan-Eberhorst. The (-) stands for the aristocratic (von), which wasn't allowed to use in names in austria after WW1. Many of aristicratic austrians used that solution.

[Doug Nye]

OOps - I do apologise - slip of the brain.

Like Canadians being described as Americans.

Gregor Grant, Scots founding Editor of 'Autosport' addressed a Californian motor club dinner during his trip to the 1960 US GP at Riverside. The President of the Club introduced him as "...'the leading English motor racing authority, Mr Gregor Grant!"

Gregor, swaying on his feet because typically he already had rather a lot of alcohol on board, began his speech by saying "By the way, I'm no English. I'm Scottish. How would you like to be described as Mexican...???"

(With apologies to our Mexican contributors...)

DCN

[Holger Merten]

Some more words to Eberan-Eberhorst.

It was Ferdinand Porsche, who asked Eberan to built up a racing dept. for Auto Union in Zwickau, after the signed contract betwen the "Porsche büro" in Stuttgart and Auto Union for constructiing the Auto Union silverarrows.

Eberan was the "right hand" of Ferdinand Porsche in Stuttgart for the Silverarrow-project. Since 1938 Eberan was responsible for the Typ D, cause Porsche now had a contract with Mercedes to develop the T 80 (and some other projects). In 1940 Eberhorst left Auto Union and went back to the TH Dresden. After the war he was involved in the Porsche constructed Cisitalia project in Gmünd/Austria. Than some other stations. ERA and Aston Martin in UK, than between 1953 -1956 technical diurctor of the new Auto Union in West-Germany. Last but not least he came back to Vienna to the technical university. He died in 1982.

[Doug Nye]

He was indeed back in Vienna when I first talked with him at length about the Auto Union saga, circa 1979-1980...

DCN

[917]

There is some truth in the joke that Germany is exporting cars and Austria car engineers: Abarth, Eberan, Hruska (of Alfasud fame), Indra (Opel and others), Ledwinka, Porsche/Piech...

[Holger Merten]

The Hahns (Auto Union; 30ies/50ies/vVolkswagen; father/son>VW in the 80ies) Yes this is interesting.......

[Wolf]

I was always wondering about Abarth... Was he Austrian-Austrian or ethnic Austrian from Italy (like, say, members of their bobsled teams)? Sorry about digression and thanks in advance.

[dmj]

Genuine Austrian, AFAIK. He was invited to work in Italy but pre-WWII he lived in Vienna, then during the was spent time in Slovenia recovering from injuries in a motorcycle crash. So I believe he started to work for Italians in that wartime...

[Wolf]

Thanks, Dmj. Pa Wolf always told me he was Italian, and he went to his 'shop' when he gave Palikovic a ride there to buy a car he was to race... That's a nice anecdote, but let us not digess..

[dmj]

I stay corrected a little bit after I did some additional research: Abarth's father was an Italian from Merano that migrated to Vienna, where Karl was born. So, just opposite to bobsled teams (or great Reinhold Messner), he wasn't Austrian from Italy but part-Italian from Austria...

[Holger Merten]

Yes the boarders between the french, german and italian languagespoken parts of central europe is not 100 % the same than the political room. Especially in Switzerland and Austria (Tessin and Tirol >both italian), or France (Elsass, german spoken). And that means the same for the family-names.

[dmj]

Abarth seems an uncommon family name both in Austria and Italy. Or I'm wrong again? Maybe it is badly germanized version of some Italian family name (Abatto?)

[Holger Merten]

He was Austrian, like for example Caracciola was German.

Here some informations from the Abarthregister in USA after he formed his own company in 1949. Abarth was an interesting guy and to come back to this thread, he was involved in that very interesting Cisitalia project, which was a stepbrother of the Auto Union Silverarrows.

Here the informations from the Abarthregister: "The Abarth Company grew out of the financial ashes of Cisitalia, where Carlo Abarth has been production manager. In 1949, when Piero Dusio, the founder and owner of Cisitalia, brought himself close to bankruptcy in his effort to produce the exotic Porsche-designed supercharged DOHC flat 12-cylinder, 4-wheel-drive Grand Prix race car, he sold the Cisitalia factory to Carlo Abarth and the Scagliarini family. Abarth is currently affiliated with Cisitalia Club International.

For the next 22 years, Carlo Abarth and Carlo Scagliarini led Abarth to an enviable record for innovative automotive technology, as well as winning more races than any other motor car manufacturer to the present day, including seven world championships. During that period, they produced more than 230 different models, and won seven Manufacturers World Championships. These Abarths are now avidly sought after by collectors worldwide.

In 1971, Carlo Abarth and Carlo Scagliarini were tired of the 14- and 16-hour days, seven days a week, and the communist-led strikes which disrupted production and racing schedules, so they sold their name and the factory to Fiat (who had already purchased Ferrari). Approximately six months later, Fiat decided that Abarth would end its racing efforts. Gianni Agnelli decided that Ferrari would represent Fiat on the world's racing circuits.

Abarth continues to make mufflers and accessories, as well as world championship Rally cars for Fiat, Lancia, and Ferrari in Torino, Italy."