40 replies to this topic

[Maldwyn]

I have received these photos from a collector of 1:43 models who is wanting to know what this car is and when & where it competed




Any ideas?

[LittleChris]

I'd guess it was a possible car for Le Mans looking at the rear wing, but I don't remember it racing, 82/83

[LittleChris]

Thinking about it, it looks like a cross breed between a Peugeot and a 962 with Lancia styling. Pretty car

[jarama]

... and Alfa Romeo lettering on the rear wing...

Carles.

[Wolf]

Apparently it was driven by Patrese and two Japanese drivers (at least, that's written on the car)... It should be Alfa (decals on the rear wing and windshield, clover behind the wheel, and Martini colours- sic. Brabham).

[Maldwyn]

Lancia and Martini were closely associated for many years and yet there appear to be no Lancia markings on this particular car Is it simply a mock-up of a car that never raced or a clever bit of disguise by a modeller who likes the Martini colours :

[Holger Merten]

My tip, Lancia, early 80ies.

[Frank de Jong]

I think it's this one:


The 1990 Alfa Romeo group C prototype with the V10 engine, which was never raced. The model car shows a what-if kind of situation...

[jun]

You can see the alfa 'triangle' in the grille, 'Alfa Romeo'-lettering on the windscreen and rear wing... me thinks it's an alfa.
Lovely car!

[Maldwyn]

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
I think it's this one...The 1990 Alfa Romeo group C prototype with the V10 engine, which was never raced. The model car shows a what-if kind of situation...

Looks very likely
Frank, do you know any more about the history of this Alfa?

[Frank de Jong]

Not too much - it was more or less discovered a few years ago, a well-kept secret. The car had a Ferrari 036 V12 engine (5-valve), not the Alfa V10 as I stated earlier. The weight was stated as 750 kg.
I must say the model car is well done, it could have raced like that...

[Holger Merten]

Sure, it must be an Alfa. i had seen it only at home on the laptop screen, now in office it is an Alfa.


You guys must have a look at this great site:

http://www.martinira...nt/timeline.asp

May here is the solution.

[Barry Boor]

I must say that I find it very difficult to equate the pictures of the model with the red car in the later image.

The section between the front wheels looks totally different, as do the headlights, and the bodywork between the wheels seems almost flat on the model but is clearly heavily inset on the real car. Also, the rise up to the rear wheel arches seems much steeper on the model.

Granted, many changes may have been made to the real car between the photo and its appearance on a circuit but seeing that it appears the car never raced, why would they have changed it.

Sorry chaps - I don't profess to know what the model is but I am fairly sure of what it isn't.....

[Maldwyn]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Sorry chaps - I don't profess to know what the model is but I am fairly sure of what it isn't.....

I take your point that there are differences but the roof mounted air-intake is similar (although a feature on many such cars), and could some of the differences be accounted for by the centrally placed headlights on the model?

Are we back to square one?

[damamaho]

I don't know what chasis it is, but I know it did never race in Le Mans, not with No 40, not with Patrese and 2 Japanese drivers and not with an Alfa engine. So, why the Le Mans stickers?
In Riccardo Patreses bio, there are some Photos of Gr.5, Gr.6 and Gr.C Martini sponsored Lancias, but not this one
So I think the builder of this model just made it out of the blue, and it is PRETTY!
Best wishes, DAMAMAHO.
www.asag.sk/danny.htm

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by damamaho
I don't know what chasis it is, but I know it did never race in Le Mans, not with No 40, not with Patrese and 2 Japanese drivers and not with an Alfa engine. So, why the Le Mans stickers?
In Riccardo Patreses bio, there are some Photos of Gr.5, Gr.6 and Gr.C Martini sponsored Lancias, but not this one
So I think the builder of this model just made it out of the blue, and it is PRETTY!
Best wishes, DAMAMAHO.
www.asag.sk/danny.htm

Indeed, seems to be a very pretty and convincing little fantasy piece. For a while I tried to find pictures of the LC1 after it had had a roof put on it and been sold to privateers, but it looked way too modern for that....;)

pete

[Frank de Jong]

I think we can be VERY sure that this particular car never raced in that form, and was never in Le Mans. As the car is clearly targeted at the Le Mans race, we can be sure that it is a fantasy car. A great one, I must say.
I'm still convinced that the Alfa group C car was the inspiration, and the differences on the nose are because of the extra lights needed at Le Mans, a solution which has been used in a way before like with the Lola 610C of 1982. The rear wing mounting looks similar on the two pictures.
Maldwyn, could you ask for any additional details? Perhaps the exhaust manifold is visible on the underside, or an indication of the year the model was built.

[dmj]

Couldn't you find name of model maker? It would be by far the easiest way to find out what it is... If it is regular offering by a modelcar company, of course...

[Maldwyn]

I will see what I can find out, or rather what the man asking the question of me originally can find out...

[Holger Merten]

Coming back to my first post on this thread,that this could be a Lancia (cause of the good conections between Lancia and Martini-Racing in the 80ies:

There was a succesful partnership between Martini-Racing and Lancia. If I rememebr right, it was Hans Heyer, the guy with that old fashiones bavarian hat, who raced for Lancia in long distance races (Group C?).

[Patrick Italiano]

Frank,

you are very well documented on that car. I would be interested in knowing what your sources are. I had never seen the picture you posted, do you have more or know of?

I have only press cuts (Autosprint) of that era, when they sometimes gave news of the project. It was intended to be sponsored by Martini indeed, and while at the time the articles gave the V10 as power plant, I met a few months ago the engineer who was responsible for it by Alfa at that time, who indeed told me the engine was derivated from the V12 Ferrari. However, the V10 went ahead in its development for some more time. Unfortunately, I had no time to ask further. I hope I'll meet him again next year.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
The 1990 Alfa Romeo group C prototype with the V10 engine, which was never raced. The model car shows a what-if kind of situation...

Did anyone have the number 40 in the 3.5l Group C era? I remember the Alba was no. 41, if no-one had 40 it could indeed be a what-if recreation. (Although Patrese's name looks odd.)

[Holger Merten]

Here are some pictures of the group C Lancia in Martini-Racing Colours:




Ricardo Patrese> Martini- Lancia LC2 in Nürnberg 1982



Michele Alboretos Factory- Lancia LC2 in Nürnberg at the WM-Race 1984

[Holger Merten]

Le Mans 1984. Martini-Lancia LC2.

[Holger Merten]

mmmh could't get away from Lancia...group 5 and group C and Le Mans


You must have a look at this site:

At the bottom you will find some fotos, seemed to me, that your car is a combination from the Lancia LC1 and LC2 with some stickers from Alfa Romeo?


http://www.urban.ne....g/kit/vol.2.htm

[dmj]

I am not so sure that actual model is based on Lancia... But great link anyway - some interesting driver pairings or combinations drove for Lancia back then, didn't they? Giro d'Italia 1979 pair of J. Villeneuve and W. Rohrl sounds especially interesting... And frontal area of that car looks like a 037 - was it a development mule for it? Did Jacques Sr. drove more races for Lancia?

[dretceterini]

I have been told that the car was to use the V-10 for the stillborn procar series...the motor that was going to be used in the mid-engined 164 "sedan" race car. Neither the procar nor the group C car competed in anything, and even though the group C looks like the Lancia, it is a different car.
Tom Zat, in upstate Michigan, actually has (or had) some 164 procar components..

I think the Martini logo is nothing more than wishfull decoration by the model builder; I have never seen a photo of the real car in anything other than red.

Stu

[Rainer Nyberg]

Me also curious on this Alfa GrC car, I don't seem to remember it at all from the period...
Seems odd that it should have used the Ferrari V12 because thay had their own V10, but maybe it was for testing only.

Looks surely to be quite a purposeful Group C machine. The orange car seems to be in a studio, a fullsize mock-up, perhaps?

I am with Frank, that the model must be an impression of 'what might have been' if the car in question would have raced...

I wonder if any car was ever completed, and run under it's own power before the project was shelved?

[Frank de Jong]

I've got my information from a dutch magazine in 1998 (!). The car was kept a secret for many years. Probably, some other car magazines must have had information on this?

[biercemountain]

Being an avid model builder myself, I know how easy it is to "kitbash" just about anything you want (if you have the modeling skill that is). That being the case, I think everyone is chasing shadows with regards to the "origin" of this particular car/model.

If it were an actual race car things would be different, but because it's a model, I vote that it's a fantasy car. It's kind of like putting McLaren style Marlboro markings on a Ferrari model and having people question it's origin. It's a rather pointless exercise.

[Barry Boor]

Maldwyn, being a modeller myself, I'm afraid I am inclined to agree with Mr. Mountain.

[Maldwyn]

Originally posted by Maldwyn
I will see what I can find out, or rather what the man asking the question of me originally can find out...

Sadly there is no more info forthcoming from the source and so the idea that it is a 'fantasy car', perhaps based on an Alfa project that never saw the light of day, appears to be the answer. Nice car though :

[Maldwyn]

I have just received this email from Mark of Grand Prix models :

This is a (very attractive) figment of somebody's imagination! The base vehicle did exist as a prototype powered by the V10 engine which eventually found its way into the 164 procar. The prototype was finished in plain red and without the extra light pod and has recently been released as a resin kit by Raccoon. It's possible that Patrese tested the car but the model looks as if the decals from a Lancia LC2 have been applied to the modified kit. It certainly never raced at Le Mans as the door plates suggest!

Details of the Raccoon model are here
It appears as if Frank's early suspicions have been proved correct

[masterhit]

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
I think it's this one:


The 1990 Alfa Romeo group C prototype with the V10 engine, which was never raced. The model car shows a what-if kind of situation...

Betcha Pascal is yearning for one of these!

[tinkerwinker]

I have been told that the car was to use the V-10 for the stillborn procar series...the motor that was going to be used in the mid-engined 164 "sedan" race car. Neither the procar nor the group C car competed in anything, and even though the group C looks like the Lancia, it is a different car.
Tom Zat, in upstate Michigan, actually has (or had) some 164 procar components..

I think the Martini logo is nothing more than wishfull decoration by the model builder; I have never seen a photo of the real car in anything other than red.

Stu

Photo of the first Brabham Alfa Procar just finished at Chessington

[Julian Roberts]

I glimpsed this a few days ago and managed to wave my compact camera at it as it cruised by. Anyone know what it is please ? I'm sure the answer will appear within the hour !


Mystery car ? by groupc, on Flickr

[Odseybod]

Jaguar Mk IV 3.5 litre?

[Dutchy]

I think it might be an MG SA

[Julian Roberts]

I think it might be an MG SA

Just as quick as I expected, thank you !

Looking at images of an MG SA in Flickr, I am tempted to agree with Dutchy, the profile of the wheel arches and external door hinges are very similar. Also from an interior shot it appears that the windscreen opens like the one in my image ?

[Odseybod]

Just as quick as I expected, thank you !

Looking at images of an MG SA in Flickr, I am tempted to agree with Dutchy, the profile of the wheel arches and external door hinges are very similar. Also from an interior shot it appears that the windscreen opens like the one in my image ?

I sit corrected about the MG-ness, well done. But with that spare wheel, surely a WA, not an SA?

[Vitesse2]

I sit corrected about the MG-ness, well done. But with that spare wheel, surely a WA, not an SA?

The VA also had a side-mounted spare. However, unlike the WA and SA the VA didn't have front quarterlights. Ergo, a WA. According to MG by McComb, you could have bought one for a very reasonable £442 in 1938.