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1986... a lifetime ago?


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#1 Andy

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 16:39

Ahh 1986, I was 22, single and had just been transferred in my job from Montréal to beautiful Vancouver, BC on Canada's West Coast. Life was good, had a great job makin' the big-bucks and living in the most beautiful part of the world I could think of. One thing I did not like was that I was now 3,000 miles from my country's Grand Prix race every June but, working in the airline industry, I could deal with that and would, most likely, get 'home' most years to see the race live.

1986, for me it seems like 'just a few' years ago, "yesterday" almost, until I think about it and realize it was 16 years ago! I've long since left Vancouver with my career taking me all over the place and right back to where I started, here in Montréal. I'm married, have a son, own my own business… the mind boggles at what has changed since those carefree days of 1986…

So what brought about this trip down memory lane? Yesterday afternoon my older brother walked into my office and said he had been cleaning up at home and found something he thought I might like to have. He's the one who first got me interested in F1 racing in the late 70's. He hands me a (mint condition!) Official Program from the 1986 "Grand Prix Labatt Du Canada"! Back from the days when the start/finish line and the pits were down on what is now 'Casino Straight', just out of the 'Casino Hairpin' at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. Back from the days when the driver line-up read like a who's-who of Grand Prix racing history:

  • Alain Prost - McLaren
  • Keke Rosberg - McLaren
  • Martin Brundle - Tyrrell
  • Philippe Streiff - Tyrrell
  • Nigel Mansell - Williams
  • Nelson Piquet - Williams
  • Riccardo Patrese - Brabham
  • Elio De Angelis - Brabham
  • Johnny Dumfries - Lotus
  • Ayrton Senna - Lotus
  • Johnathon Palmer - Zakspeed
  • Alan Jones - Team Haas USA
  • Patrick Tambay - Team Haas USA
  • Marc Surer - Arrows
  • Thierry Boutsen - Arrows
  • Teo Fabi - Benetton
  • Gerhard Berger - Benetton
  • Pier-Carlo Ghinzani - Osella
  • Christian Danner - Osella
  • Andrea De Cesaris - Minardi
  • Alessandro Nannini - Minardi
  • René Arnoux - Ligier
  • Jacques Lafitte - Ligier
  • Michele Alboreto - Ferrari
  • Stefan Johansson - Ferrari

Many of these names have since become F1 legends, names future generations of F1 fans will come to know, some names will drift off but I think it's fair to say that the majority of these names will live on. How many of today's drivers will leave a legacy anywhere close to what over 1/2 of these guys did? Schumacher will be remembered, obviously, as will Couldhart, J. Villeneuve, Frentzen maybe? What of the teams? Of this list of 13 teams, 16 years later 5 remain with Arrows looking like it will be 4 in no time.

I look at the pictures, in this program, of the cars… Man THOSE were F1 cars! Don't get me wrong, I still love F1 today. I do feel it needs some major re-thinking at the moment and also think Bernie's idea of ballast is nothing short of absurd, but it is still, as it was, the pinnacle of motorsports, the leading edge of technology for cars.

I'd love to hear of your memories of the '86 season and/or this era of F1, will we ever see it again? Mind you, did we really realize, back in 1986, what and who it was we were watching?

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#2 Don Capps

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 16:45

Cripes! In 1986 was already phasing myself out of F1 and concentrating mostly on CART, IMSA, and NASCAR! I had already been a serious fan for over 30 years and the edge was definitely dull when it came to F1 in my eyes..... So, perhaps not as much has changed as one would expect......

#3 tifoso

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 18:19

So Don's been phasing himself out of F1 for over 16 years.;)

In 1986 I was living in Detroit. I saw my first race in 1985 -- more as a lark than anything else. I'd just moved a few months ago and hadn't made many friends yet. So I wandered down town to the race to see what was it was all about. I liked it enough to go again in 1986. This time I flew my brother, who had just turned 18, up to see the race with me. He's been hooked ever since, becoming a Nigel Mansell fan. Of course, I rooted for Eddie Cheever in the Lola/Ford because he was from the U.S. Though I have to admit rooting for a Ford was pretty difficult. But I fell in love with Michele Alboreto and Ferrari that day, though I didn't start following F1 race-by-race until 1994 when my brother gave me Nigel Mansell's biography to read.

Unlike Don, I'm not phasing out. I'm hoping for better days and becoming more interested in the history.

#4 dmj

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 18:40

Mid Eighties were definitely among the periods with highest number of all-time greats on the grid. Turbo era and first few years after that must stand as one of greatest periods in racing history. Same goes for group B rallying of that period. 1986 was no exception, a truly classic season. And my interest in current F1 was at highest level: when you are 16 you believe in heroes. I had three: Ayrton Senna, basketball player Drazen Petrovic and singer Nick Cave. After at least 15 years on hard drugs, Cave is the only one of them still alive! How ironic destiny can be...

#5 Andy

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 18:57

Originally posted by Don Capps
Cripes! In 1986 was already phasing myself out of F1 and concentrating mostly on CART, IMSA, and NASCAR! I had already been a serious fan for over 30 years and the edge was definitely dull when it came to F1 in my eyes..... So, perhaps not as much has changed as one would expect......

What goes around comes around I guess. Interesting what Don says here because it definately describes my current feelings for F1 (except the NASCAR bit! :p ). Now is it an age thing? That after 'X' years of watching F1 everyone starts to tire of it? Or is it an F1 'cycle' thing in that prior to the mid-eighties F1 built itself up to "burn-out" (in the spectator's eyes) by the mid-80's then started all over again to reach the point it's at now? Curious...

#6 Don Capps

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 19:56

OR, perhaps some of us simply like poking sticks in the spokes of those who are johnny-one-notes as far as F1 (or any other series as THE alpha AND the omega for that matter) plus some of us are just malcontents to begin with and love to question everything as well as savoring that wonderful quiet moment when you know you have truly pissed Them off.... and you really weren't even trying.... Mostly importantly, you don't too much seriously. The I Am A True (...fill in the blank...) Fan sorts of folks somehow bring out the Monty Python in me....

Remind me, for those who don't know this already, the marvelous time that one can have at a social gathering with a can of cream of mushroom spoon and a few spoons.....

#7 fullcourseyellow

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 20:13

The first ever F-1 race I saw LIVE on TV was Adelaide 1986 --- possibly the greatest race in the history of F-1! That was what got me into becoming an F-1 nut for the last 16 years. Not sure if I would be who I am if that first race was Hungaroring 2002... :

#8 Haddock

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 20:26

1986 ? - I was the only eight year old kid at the Brands Hatch who wanted the Brazilian in the black and yellow Lotus to finish ahead of "Our Nige" in the Williams.

Apart from that I remember the little shots of flame you got from the turbos, the showers to titanium sparks as the cars went down towards Hawthorn, they *looked* a lot more spectacular then.

And that lowline Brabham. Which forever disproves the idea that if it looks right.......

#9 Don Capps

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 20:33

Originally posted by Don Capps
Remind me, for those who don't know this already, the marvelous time that one can have at a social gathering with a can of cream of mushroom spoon and a few spoons.....


What? Everyone already knows all about this? Drat....

#10 tifoso

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 20:38

Originally posted by Don Capps
What? Everyone already knows all about this? Drat....

Don, I'm still trying to figure out if I want to attend the duel you've proposed with cow pats, pocket books, or nerf swords. I haven't got around to the mushroom soup and spoons yet.;)

#11 Geza Sury

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 20:43

Originally posted by Andy

  • Alain Prost - McLaren
  • Keke Rosberg - McLaren
  • Martin Brundle - Tyrrell
  • Philippe Streiff - Tyrrell
  • Nigel Mansell - Williams
  • Nelson Piquet - Williams
  • Riccardo Patrese - Brabham
  • Elio De Angelis - Brabham
  • Johnny Dumfries - Lotus
  • Ayrton Senna - Lotus
  • Johnathon Palmer - Zakspeed
  • Alan Jones - Team Haas USA
  • Patrick Tambay - Team Haas USA
  • Marc Surer - Arrows
  • Thierry Boutsen - Arrows
  • Teo Fabi - Benetton
  • Gerhard Berger - Benetton
  • Pier-Carlo Ghinzani - Osella
  • Christian Danner - Osella
  • Andrea De Cesaris - Minardi
  • Alessandro Nannini - Minardi
  • René Arnoux - Ligier
  • Jacques Lafitte - Ligier
  • Michele Alboreto - Ferrari
  • Stefan Johansson - Ferrari

Yeah, that was the entry list. However, the starting field was slightly different. Marc Surer was a non-starter having had a huge crash in a rally, so Arrows was just down to one car, while Zakspeed fielded not just a single, but two cars, the second one for Huub Rothangatter.

#12 Don Capps

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 20:53

Originally posted by tifoso
Don, I'm still trying to figure out if I want to attend the duel you've proposed with cow pats, pocket books, or nerf swords. I haven't got around to the mushroom soup and spoons yet.;)


Personally, I am leaning more towards the cow pats since that somehow seems more appropriate.....

Besides, once you know The Secret of the cream of mushroom soup, you will tempted to try it out and being a high class person and all.....

#13 Andy

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 21:06

Originally posted by Don Capps
OR, perhaps some of us simply like poking sticks in the spokes of those who are johnny-one-notes as far as F1 (or any other series as THE alpha AND the omega for that matter) plus some of us are just malcontents to begin with and love to question everything as well as savoring that wonderful quiet moment when you know you have truly pissed Them off.... and you really weren't even trying.... Mostly importantly, you don't too much seriously. The I Am A True (...fill in the blank...) Fan sorts of folks somehow bring out the Monty Python in me....

Remind me, for those who don't know this already, the marvelous time that one can have at a social gathering with a can of cream of mushroom spoon and a few spoons.....


Don did you forget to take your medication again?? I'm still trying to figure out WHAT this means!! :confused:

#14 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 21:06

Allow me to dust off the oldy but goodie, 'hindsight is 20-20'

its easy to look back at a past grid and base their careers on things which often happened later in their careers. in 1986 Ayrton Senna was roughly where Montoya is now, so you cant compare drivers grids until all the current guys careers have ended

#15 tifoso

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 21:12

Don, cow pats, definitely of a 1986 vintage, just to stay on topic.;)

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Allow me to dust off the oldy but goodie, 'hindsight is 20-20'

its easy to look back at a past grid and base their careers on things which often happened later in their careers. in 1986 Ayrton Senna was roughly where Montoya is now, so you cant compare drivers grids until all the current guys careers have ended

Ross, I agree with that. But we can compare drivers of the very recent past who have retired from F1. Since Senna's death, I can't think of a driver to compare to most of the list Andy posted except Mika Hakkinen. I'm not counting Mansell as I prefer to think only of 1992 and pre-1992. The current retirees don't seem nearly as good.

#16 Andy

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 21:19

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Allow me to dust off the oldy but goodie, 'hindsight is 20-20'

its easy to look back at a past grid and base their careers on things which often happened later in their careers. in 1986 Ayrton Senna was roughly where Montoya is now, so you cant compare drivers grids until all the current guys careers have ended

Well that's basically what I'm asking/saying Ross. I am sure a lot of it is hindsight, as you say in 1986 "who" was Ayrton Senna other than another up-and-comer driver. It's just that I look at that list of names and would venture to say that I recognize more names, still today, on that list than I probably will looking at, say, the 2000 list in 16 year's time. I could be wrong, maybe more will stand out then, but I doubt it.

#17 tifoso

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 21:33

Originally posted by Andy
Don did you forget to take your medication again?? I'm still trying to figure out WHAT this means!! :confused:

I think he means he likes stirring the pot occasionally to get The True Fan all riled up. I'm sure I've left out some important bits, but that's my take anyway. He's got a prime example going on in RC now entitled Revolution. And he's hooked a few True Fans.

#18 Doug Nye

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 22:46

As one slides down the razor blade of life it has often occurred to me how brief the reality of passing time really is.

It's something which perhaps doesn't slap you between the eyes until one's forties - but when I first began to attend races regularly under my own steam in 1962, rear-engined racing cars had only really ruled the F1 roost since 1959...just three seasons.

In other words the time span since their initial breakthrough was as long ago - from today's perspective - as 1999!

When Jimmy Clark won his first World title with the Lotus 25 in 1963 it was only 12 years since the days of the Alfetta and the Talbot-Lago... looking back from 2002 that would be 1990! Contrast the designs, structures, size, format of the contrasting cars and that's fairly shocking...

When Niki Lauda won his first World title in 1975 - it was only 20 years since Moss and Jenks had won the Mille Miglia in the Mercedes-Benz 300SLR...looking back now that would be 1982... contrast the kinds and customs of circuit racing versus public road racing...

My dear old dad was born the year before the Wright brothers first flew under control from Kill Devil Hill. He was then 67 years old when he and I watched live on TV the first man set foot on the moon - or at least, that's what the commentator was telling us. How's that for progress within one gentle man's lifetime, and of course that was absolutely commonplace.

That time span - 1903 first flight to 1969 first giant step - looking back from today would only take us back to the outbreak of World War 2...1939.

DCN

#19 Mila

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 23:10

Geza Sury, indeed Surer's navigator suffered a fatal injury.

other changes that I recall: Warwick, in his first GP of 86, had replaced the deceased de Angelis at Brabham, and Tambay, having crashed in the esses, didn't make the start.

Andy, you see, I remember it as though it WAS yesterday!

our spot was across from the pits. the turbos were so loud.

as you say, many accomplished drivers were there. Prost put an incredibly brave pass on Senna through those concrete-walled esses. on the downside, though, it was a fuel-economy race with only Rosberg making the lead dice interesting by turning his boost up at the start. this of course only flattered to deceive, as he had to back off to make the finish.

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#20 Don Capps

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 00:17

Originally posted by Andy
Don did you forget to take your medication again?? I'm still trying to figure out WHAT this means!! :confused:


Originally posted by tifoso
I think he means he likes stirring the pot occasionally to get The True Fan all riled up. I'm sure I've left out some important bits, but that's my take anyway. He's got a prime example going on in RC now entitled Revolution. And he's hooked a few True Fans.


My Mom always regretted not naming me after Martin Luther since I seemed to always have this knack for stirring things up by asking questions and after getting the discussion to a boil, then calmly ask, "Gosh, why is everyone so riled up?" with a perfectly straight face....

Plus, I am one of those who is always asking questions, asking why this or that, challenging the prevailing thought and wisdom -- and able to abruptly switch sides in a flash just to show off a tad....

Mom also used to say that if Lutherans had nuns, I would certainly be the very person to get even them to riot.... She used to also say that it was a definite sign that God was a kind and loving God to ensure that Martin Luther and I were born four and a half centruries apart otherwise the Reformation Wars would still be going on.... Needless to say, the 60's and 70's were a wonderful time for someone like me. And to his dying days my father was also puzzled how someone like me survived as long as I did in the Army -- heaven knows what he would have thought had he been around to see me becoma a colonel....

I think too often there is an uncritical acceptance of things, some of which certainly warrant at least an arched eyebrow. Like Doug, I began going to races many years ago, except that I got to witness firsthand the switch from the engines in front of the driver to the engine behind the driver. To be honest, despite my rooting for the underdog guys with the engines in the rear of the cars, I also dearly loved those big ol' Maseratis.....

Change is inevitable, but most change is the result of unanticipated consequences -- not planning.

#21 Option1

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 05:54

Originally posted by Don Capps




My Mom always regretted not naming me after Martin Luther since I seemed to always have this knack for stirring things up by asking questions and after getting the discussion to a boil, then calmly ask, "Gosh, why is everyone so riled up?" with a perfectly straight face....

Plus, I am one of those who is always asking questions, asking why this or that, challenging the prevailing thought and wisdom -- and able to abruptly switch sides in a flash just to show off a tad....

Mom also used to say that if Lutherans had nuns, I would certainly be the very person to get even them to riot.... She used to also say that it was a definite sign that God was a kind and loving God to ensure that Martin Luther and I were born four and a half centruries apart otherwise the Reformation Wars would still be going on.... Needless to say, the 60's and 70's were a wonderful time for someone like me. And to his dying days my father was also puzzled how someone like me survived as long as I did in the Army -- heaven knows what he would have thought had he been around to see me becoma a colonel....

I think too often there is an uncritical acceptance of things, some of which certainly warrant at least an arched eyebrow. Like Doug, I began going to races many years ago, except that I got to witness firsthand the switch from the engines in front of the driver to the engine behind the driver. To be honest, despite my rooting for the underdog guys with the engines in the rear of the cars, I also dearly loved those big ol' Maseratis.....

Change is inevitable, but most change is the result of anticipated consequences not planning.

I suspect the last line was meant to refer to unanticipated consequences, perhaps?

One thing I will say is that the past so often does seem brighter than the present, but one day soon (like tomorrow) the present will also be the past.

I spent many years working with veterans and it's always revealing watching them condemn and complain of their experiences during something like World War II, but at the same time there's a hint of loss for those times - a fondness for those days when they were younger and the world to them was less complicated.

As for questioning things, maybe what riles people up sometimes Don isn't that you question, but how you phrase it. I have a friend that constantly upsets people by what he calls "being honest". The trouble is that he's mistaking honesty for opinion and lack of tact. Sometimes it's all in how you look at it.

I'll close by saying that I'm one of those strange people who like a number of forms of motorsport, dislike some other forms of it, and don't see much wrong with F1 racing these days. However, I do see a whole heap wrong with the way it's now controlled and run as a marketing business.

Neil

#22 FredF1

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 07:21

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Allow me to dust off the oldy but goodie, 'hindsight is 20-20'

its easy to look back at a past grid and base their careers on things which often happened later in their careers. in 1986 Ayrton Senna was roughly where Montoya is now, so you cant compare drivers grids until all the current guys careers have ended


That's why I love to watch the annual review videos. Because they're current. Telling us how, for example, that Berger and Alesi are world champions in waiting etc.
No purple prose along the lines of "Ah, but if we had only known then what we know now" stuff. I was watching the 1984 review tape - Detroit - where Piquet's wheel narrowly misses hitting Senna - I thought to myself - "Could you imagine the commentary if this was a post-1994 review - ... and Senna had a narrow miss from near certain death but ten years later....."

Non-racing example.
A friend of mine collects books on contemporary music.
He has several editions of Discographies.
Mid-70's - John Lennon - Such and such an album - Yawn, self-indulgent crap.
1979 - John Lennon - Such and such an album - Yawn, self-indulgent crap.
1981 - John Lennon - Same albums - Brilliant, timeless classics etc, etc.

#23 mikedeering

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 10:51

1986 was a brilliant year - and the last time the championship went to the last round with more than 2 drivers with a chance of the title. (Commonplace in the 1960s, but since then very rare - especially in the last 16 years).

The Adelaide race itself contained more excitement than the average GP season now (ah...rose tinted spectacles...) We had Mansell's blow out, Prost's puncture, Rosberg leading his last race, Piquet spinning...now the only excitement at the front is "Just how many ways can Ferrari come up with to screw up a finish?"

I loved 1986. Not just the drivers, but the tracks as well. We had Brands Hatch, the Osterreichring, Mexico City and the old Hockenheim (which I never liked, but compared to the 2002 version...). Of course we also had the Hungaroring for the first time, but thanks to Piquet and Senna we still got an amazing race - with passing! In Hungary!

1986 also boasted the closest GP finish in history - the 0.014s that separated Senna and Mansell in Jerez (I like to discount Indy 2002).

#24 Breadmaster

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 11:31

Originally posted by mikedeering
1986 was a brilliant year - and the last time the championship went to the last round with more than 2 drivers with a chance of the title. (Commonplace in the 1960s, but since then very rare - especially in the last 16 years).

The Adelaide race itself contained more excitement than the average GP season now (ah...rose tinted spectacles...) We had Mansell's blow out, Prost's puncture, Rosberg leading his last race, Piquet spinning...now the only excitement at the front is "Just how many ways can Ferrari come up with to screw up a finish?"

I loved 1986. Not just the drivers, but the tracks as well. We had Brands Hatch, the Osterreichring, Mexico City and the old Hockenheim (which I never liked, but compared to the 2002 version...). Of course we also had the Hungaroring for the first time, but thanks to Piquet and Senna we still got an amazing race - with passing! In Hungary!

1986 also boasted the closest GP finish in history - the 0.014s that separated Senna and Mansell in Jerez (I like to discount Indy 2002).


spot on! :clap:

#25 ghinzani

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 11:47

Originally posted by Doug Nye
...but when I first began to attend races regularly under my own steam in 1962
DCN


Couldnt afford a modern car then? or where you just a masochist who liked to shovel coal?? :rotfl:

#26 Garagiste

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 16:36

At the time of writing, exactly half a lifetime ago. Scary.
I was just getting (really) into F1 around this time, and yes, I remember nearly all of that list well.
Having said that, I expect to remember most of the current lot too, it's the Rossets and Tueros that tend to get forgotten.

Great Lennon e.g. Fred. :up:

As always it's partly the nostalgia thing. Autosport.com recently ran Roebuck's column from (IIRC) 1982. Spookily, in it he was saying that the racing was better 20 years prior. :)

#27 petefenelon

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 16:40

Originally posted by Garagiste
At the time of writing, exactly half a lifetime ago. Scary.
I was just getting (really) into F1 around this time, and yes, I remember nearly all of that list well.
Having said that, I expect to remember most of the current lot too, it's the Rossets and Tueros that tend to get forgotten.

Great Lennon e.g. Fred. :up:

As always it's partly the nostalgia thing. Autosport.com recently ran Roebuck's column from (IIRC) 1982. Spookily, in it he was saying that the racing was better 20 years prior. :)


Roebuck seems to think almost everything, not just racing, was better 20 years ago - you could smoke in more places and the Tories were in power :p

In some respects, I'm glad Roebuck doesn't really like contemprary F1 - he's not afraid to talk about the Emperor's New Clothes. But in others it's deeply annoying - I think the scurrilous rag he works for should at least send someone who can fake an interest in the contemporary sport to the races, because Roebuck's reports these days seem increasingly perfunctory (when you can actually find the text in amongst all the "features" around them...

He's still good when he's writing about the past - maybe we should get him to come here :p

#28 John B

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 17:02

I also enjoyed the 1986 season, in large part due to supporting Prost at the time. Besides the finish, here are some of the memories which come to mind:

Prost driving to 6th at Spa with car bent in 1st corner accident with Senna
The last laps at jerez
Ligier being seriously competitive at a few first half events
Prost's dominance at Monaco
Mansell upsetting the order at Williams by beating Piquet and Brands (when they lapped AP)


There were some boring races when Williams was on, but at least the teammates made it interesting with their rivalry (remember Piquet not sharing tech advice about a differential with NM at Hungary, resulting in a 1-3 instead of possible 1-2?) . As it turned out 3 drivers had a chance at the title in the last race, with 4 in contention most of the year. I think Mike makes a good point about the tracks - there were some good circuits on the schedule, though Hungary had replaced Zaandvoort (at least NP and AS put on a good show). The kind of season one appreciates more comparing it to the duller dirges (a season preview for 2002 concluded 'hopefully Schumacher will not clinch his title in August this time,' which turned out to be true.........)

#29 Chris Bloom

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 19:23

I also have fond memories of 1986. It provided many highs as well as some depressing lows. I remember staying up on a chilly October night to watch the season finale. It was like a dream come true, my hero of the early eighties was about to win his last Grand Prix and the local hero was about to win his first world championship. Then suddenly the whole world fell apart ): I spent the Sunday in some sort of daze and then I was ill for the next three weeks. My doctor never found out what was wrong with me so I can only suggest that it was a fever brought on by the trauma of the last half of that Adelaide GP!

#30 fullcourseyellow

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 19:41

Originally posted by Geza Sury

Yeah, that was the entry list. However, the starting field was slightly different. Marc Surer was a non-starter having had a huge crash in a rally, so Arrows was just down to one car, while Zakspeed fielded not just a single, but two cars, the second one for Huub Rothangatter.


I thought Arrows had Christian Danner as Boutsen's teammate from Montreal on, and Allen Berg also made his debut there in the second Osella.

#31 cheesy poofs

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 19:48

Allen Berg :drunk:

Now, how many people remember him ?

He was the first canadian to race after GV and the last before JV !

#32 Geza Sury

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 20:23

Originally posted by fullcourseyellow
I thought Arrows had Christian Danner as Boutsen's teammate from Montreal on, and Allen Berg also made his debut there in the second Osella.

No, Danner was still with Osella at Montreal because of contractual problems. Arrows thought Danner would drive for them in Canada, but as he remained at Osella, Arrows couldn't run two cars in Montreal. After this race Danner was released from his contract. That raises the question: why Arrows didn't try to find an immediate replacement for Danner in Montreal? (Like Brabham did in 1979 when Lauda suddenly announced his retirement)

#33 cheesy poofs

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 20:43

Originally posted by Geza Sury

That raises the question: why Arrows didn't try to find an immediate replacement for Danner in Montreal? (Like Brabham did in 1979 when Lauda suddenly announced his retirement)




Back in those days, teams did not travel with their 3rd driver like they do today to fly away races because this did not exist. Not too many drivers would have jumped, without proper testing, into that empty seat. That kind of stuff could ruin your career, even before it started.

#34 Maldwyn

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 21:04

Originally posted by cheesy poofs
Allen Berg :drunk:

Now, how many people remember him ?

I remember him being sponsored by Grand Prix International magazine in British F3

#35 cheesy poofs

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 21:46

Originally posted by Maldwyn

I remember him being sponsored by Grand Prix International magazine in British F3



Berg drove against Senna, Brundle & also Davy Jones, Calvin Fish in the 1983 Marlboro British F3 championship. IIRC- he drove for Eddie Jordan that year ?

#36 ghinzani

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 08:55

Originally posted by cheesy poofs



Back in those days, teams did not travel with their 3rd driver like they do today to fly away races because this did not exist. Not too many drivers would have jumped, without proper testing, into that empty seat. That kind of stuff could ruin your career, even before it started.


You'd have thought they would have tried to shoehorn Jacques Villeneuve into the car - after all they tried to do same at the 82 running of the race when Theodore needed a replacement driver - unfortunately they'd already got Geoff Lees so it was a non-starter.

On the Osella front IIRC it was a matter of chequebooks at dawn between Berg and Alain Ferte - what a shame neither got a real chance in F1 as both had been quick in junior formulae, especially Ferte - a 2 time Monaco F3 winner no less!

#37 BRG

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 12:03

Just as an experiment, I decided to try classifying the 1986 and 2002 grids to see if the modern grid really is as nondescript as nostalgia might suggest. I got the following:-

1986

Class 1 : GREAT & GOOD Class 2 : IN-BETWEENIES Class 3 : ALSO-RANS

Alain Prost - McLaren Riccardo Patrese - Brabham Philippe Streiff - Tyrrell
Nelson Piquet - Williams Elio De Angelis - Brabham Johnny Dumfries - Lotus
Nigel Mansell - Williams Patrick Tambay – Lola Haas Martin Brundle - Tyrrell
Keke Rosberg - McLaren Thierry Boutsen - Arrows Jonathon Palmer - Zakspeed
Ayrton Senna - Lotus Gerhard Berger - Benetton Teo Fabi - Benetton
Alan Jones – Lola Haas Andrea De Cesaris - Minardi Marc Surer - Arrows
Jacques Lafitte - Ligier Alessandro Nannini - Minardi Pier-Carlo Ghinzani - Osella
Michele Alboreto - Ferrari René Arnoux – Ligier Christian Danner - Osella
Stefan Johansson - Ferrari

2002

Class 1 : GREAT & GOOD Class 2 : IN-BETWEENIES Class 3 : ALSO-RANS

Michael Schumacher Ralf Schumacher Pedro de la Rose
Juan-Pablo Montoya Giancarlo Fisichella Enrique Bernoldi
Jacques Villeneuve Eddie Irvine Felipe Massa
David Coulthard Mika Salo Alan McNish
Rubens Barrichello Heinz-Harald Frentzen Mark Weber
Nick Heidfeld Takuma Sato
Jenson Button Jarno Trulli
Kimi Raikkonen Olivier Panis

(Plus of course, a special Class 4 NEVER WERE for Alex Yoong. ;) )

Now, I have tried to be brutally frank and you may well disagree with some or all of my classifications. But that is not the issue - the point is that when we think of the 1986 field, we are remembering their whole careers. But in 2002, we only know what they have done so far - one season for Sato, Weber or Massa, or two for Kimi etc. All of them may graduate to Class 1 before they are finished (well, perhaps not Yoong). Looking at 1986, we have 20-20 hindsight.

All in all, it doesn’t look so bad for the current crop. I think that in 20 years time, Fisi will be remembered as well as de Angelis is today, or Frentzen as well as Berger.

#38 BRG

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 12:51

Oh bu**er it, the columns didn't work! Let me try again:-

Just as an experiment, I decided to try classifying the 1986 and 2002 grids to see if the modern grid really is as nondescript as nostalgia might suggest. I got the following:-

1986

Class 1 : GREAT & GOOD
Alain Prost - McLaren
Nelson Piquet - Williams
Nigel Mansell - Williams
Keke Rosberg - McLaren
Ayrton Senna - Lotus
Alan Jones – Lola Haas
Jacques Lafitte - Ligier
Michele Alboreto - Ferrari

Class 2 : IN-BETWEENIES
Riccardo Patrese - Brabham
Elio De Angelis - Brabham
Patrick Tambay – Lola Haas
Stefan Johansson - Ferrari
Teo Fabi - Benetton
Thierry Boutsen - Arrows
Gerhard Berger - Benetton
Andrea De Cesaris - Minardi
Alessandro Nannini - Minardi
René Arnoux – Ligier

Class 3 : ALSO-RANS
Philippe Streiff - Tyrrell
Johnny Dumfries - Lotus
Martin Brundle - Tyrrell
Jonathon Palmer - Zakspeed
Christian Danner - Osella
Pier-Carlo Ghinzani - Osella
Marc Surer - Arrows


2002

Class 1 : GREAT & GOOD
Michael Schumacher
Juan-Pablo Montoya
Jacques Villeneuve
David Coulthard
Rubens Barrichello

Class 2 : IN-BETWEENIES
Ralf Schumacher
Nick Heidfeld
Jenson Button
Kimi Raikkonen
Giancarlo Fisichella
Eddie Irvine
Mika Salo
Heinz-Harald Frentzen

Class 3 : ALSO-RANS
Pedro de la Rosa
Enrique Bernoldi
Felipe Massa
Alan McNish
Mark Weber
Takuma Sato
Jarno Trulli
Olivier Panis

(Plus of course, a special Class 4 NEVER WERE for Alex Yoong. ;) )

Now, I have tried to be brutally frank and you may well disagree with some or all of my classifications. But that is not the issue - the point is that when we think of the 1986 field, we are remembering their whole careers. But in 2002, we only know what they have done so far - one season for Sato, Weber or Massa, or two for Kimi etc. All of them may graduate to Class 1 before they are finished (well, perhaps not Yoong). Looking at 1986, we have 20-20 hindsight.

All in all, it doesn’t look so bad for the current crop. I think that in 20 years time, Fisi will be remembered as well as de Angelis is today, or Frentzen as well as Berger.

#39 man

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 15:38

Originally posted by BRG


Class 1 : GREAT & GOOD
Alain Prost - McLaren
Nelson Piquet - Williams
Nigel Mansell - Williams
Keke Rosberg - McLaren
Ayrton Senna - Lotus
Alan Jones – Lola Haas
Jacques Lafitte - Ligier
Michele Alboreto - Ferrari

Class 2 : IN-BETWEENIES
Riccardo Patrese - Brabham
Elio De Angelis - Brabham
Patrick Tambay – Lola Haas
Stefan Johansson - Ferrari
Teo Fabi - Benetton
Thierry Boutsen - Arrows
Gerhard Berger - Benetton
Andrea De Cesaris - Minardi
Alessandro Nannini - Minardi
René Arnoux – Ligier

Class 3 : ALSO-RANS
Philippe Streiff - Tyrrell
Johnny Dumfries - Lotus
Martin Brundle - Tyrrell
Jonathon Palmer - Zakspeed
Christian Danner - Osella
Pier-Carlo Ghinzani - Osella
Marc Surer - Arrows



Don't see how you can put Alboreto and Laffite in class 1 with Berger (an Alboreto thrasher and a Mansell leveller) and De Angelis (A Mansell beater) in class 2

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#40 BRG

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 16:36

I didn't want to get into an argument about who was in which class, it was more about the comparison between the classes of 1986 and 2002 and their comparative merits.

But you cannot seriously call de Angelis (2 wins) a Mansell (31 wins and 1 WDC) beater!

#41 Maldwyn

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 17:30

Originally posted by BRG
But you cannot seriously call de Angelis (2 wins) a Mansell (31 wins and 1 WDC) beater!

At the time of Elio's fatal accident Nigel had only won 2 Grands Prix.

#42 rdrcr

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 18:42

1986 was great year here in North America... I was 29 and as Don's interest was waning, mine was at full chat! I went to all of the GP's - Montreal, Detroit and Mexico City... The fields were, as previously mentioned filled with racing stars.

The parties were the best, gala events with pit-babes and who's-who'ers from around the globe. Pit access was still possible and I think that it was some of the best racing ever.

I went to all of these events with the same bunch of F1 nuts that I had been with previously over the last 10 years. It was a fine group of folks that enjoyed the racing and the extracurricular activities that were so much a part of the scene.


Detroit: had a spectacular bash put on by the Ford Motor Co. - one of my pal's dad, sat on the board that put the event together. nothing like credentials - it ruined me for GA forever. At the start Senna took the lead with Mansell second under pressure from Arnoux. On the second lap Senna missed a gear and Mansell went ahead, quickly leaving Senna to fight with Arnoux. Mansell was in trouble with brakes, however, and so Senna was soon able to catch him again and on the eighth lap Senna took the lead again. He was also on harder tires than Mansell so he was well placed for a victory. Mansell dropped back behind Arnoux and Laffite. On lap 12, however, Senna had a puncture and had to pit and so there was a Ligier 1-2 with Arnoux leading Laffite for a couple of laps before Jacques went ahead. Mansell was third with Prost fourth, Piquet fifth and Senna sixth. The pit stops got rid of the Ligiers as a competitive force, the team being much slower than the other front-runners and with Piquet and Mansell both slower than they should have been, Senna was ahead again when the stops were over. Piquet then crashed and the car was hit by Arnoux, who then tried to keep going and reversed into the path of Boutsen's Arrows This left Senna a long way ahead of Prost with Laffite third and closing. Prost had a misfire and could do nothing to stop Laffite taking second before the finish.


Montreal: Always a great time - the city really comes out large for the GP. In the race, Mansell took the lead and with Senna holding up those behind him, Mansell seemed to be in a very strong position. Behind Senna were Prost, Piquet, Rosberg, Arnoux and the rest. Rosberg soon overtook Piquet. On the fifth lap Prost finally made it ahead of Senna and the Brazilian went wide and was pushed back to sixth behind Piquet and Arnoux. On lap 13 Rosberg overtook Prost for second and four laps later the Finn took the lead. His fuel consumption was too much., however, and so Rosberg had to back off which enabled Mansell and Prost to close up. As they came up to lap Jones on lap 22 Rosberg left a small gap and Mansell took the lead again. He pulled away to win the race.

Prost retook Rosberg for second place but he then had a slow pit stop caused by a sticking wheel-nut and dropped back to fifth. He spent the rest of the race charging back to take second by the finish. Piquet was third with Rosberg fourth having had to slow to conserve fuel in the closing laps while the troubled Senna was fifth and Arnoux sixth.


Mexico City: We had a wild time with a friend of a guy in our troop that had a GM dealership in Mexico City, well his dad did anyway, and he showed us all a fantastic time. We were never back at the hotel before 4 am! For the race, Mansell was in the position to win the World Championship if he could score a good result but at the start he botched it and was left at the back of the field. Piquet and Senna were running first and second. Berger was third with Prost fourth. On the seventh lap Prost got ahead of Berger. Mansell charged up through the backmarkers but then had to pit for new tires. The only man not to do so was Berger, who reckoned that he might be able to go the distance on his Pirelli tires. When the other front-runners returned to action they were not able to close on Berger because the Goodyear's were blistering in the heat.

Berger took his first Formula 1 victory, followed home by Prost and Senna, Piquet and Mansell were fourth and fifth


Prost was the eventual victor in the WDC fight, winning at Adelaide. It was a great fight for the championship that year with a real 3 way battle between Mansell, Prost and Piquet. Mansell was on Pole, but at the second corner Senna forced his way into the lead. Piquet and Rosberg followed him past Mansell and on that first lap, Piquet overtook Senna to take the lead. On the next lap Senna dropped behind Rosberg and on lap 4 behind Mansell. Two laps later Prost was also ahead of Senna.

On lap 7 Rosberg overtook Piquet and began to build a lead while a little later Prost got ahead of Mansell and chased after Piquet. On lap 23 Nelson spun. Prost's hopes seemed to evaporate a few laps later when he had a puncture and had to pit. He was back in fourth again.

Piquet charged back from his spin, passing Mansell for second place on lap 44 but Prost closed on the two Williams drivers and with 25 laps to go all three were running together.

On lap 63 the battle became one for the lead, when Rosberg suffered a right rear tire failure. Mansell was on course for the title when two laps later his left rear tire exploded at 180mph. Nigel managed to avoid hitting anything by his championship hopes were over. Frank had no choice but to call Piquet to the pits and so Prost went into the lead. Piquet closed the gap from 15secs to four but Prost won the race and the World Championship after a breathtakingly exciting race.

#43 ensign14

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 19:20

Did anyone notice the unintentionally hilarious Piquet quote in Autosport this week? It relates to 1987, but what the hey. Piquet says it was anticlimactic to win the title that year with Mansell lying in a Japanese hospital as it would have been nice to have beaten him on the track.

Yes, perhaps it would, at least once would have been nice... :p

#44 Ian McKean

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 20:00

Originally posted by Doug Nye
As one slides down the razor blade of life ...
DCN


I would love to know if this wonderful expression was used by anyone prior to Tom Lehrer in his "Fight Fiercely Harvard".

#45 CLX

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 20:49

I was only 6 years old back then, but I think it's ok to say that today's grid doesn't come close the the grid of 1986.

#46 cheesy poofs

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 21:57

A few numbers...


The 32 drivers that took part in the 1986 championship had a combined total experience of 2112 GP starts for an average of 66 starts each.

Nine drivers had over 100 GP's experience:

de Angelis (107 )
Arnoux (112 )
Laffite (176 )
Jones (116 ) 1 X WDC
Patrese (144 )
Piquet (126 ) 2 X WDC
Prost (105 ) 1 x WDC
Rosberg (114 ) 1 X WDC
Tambay (114 )

The 23 drivers that have taken part in the 2002 championship have a combined total experience of 1638 GP starts for an average of 71 starts each.

Nine drivers have over 100 GP's experience:

Barrichello (160 )
Coulthard (140 )
Frentzen (141 )
M. Schumacher (176 ) 5 X WDC
Fisichella (106 )
Irvine (145 )
Panis (123 )
Salo (108 )
Villeneuve (115 ) 1 X WDC

#47 man

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Posted 12 October 2002 - 11:05

Originally posted by BRG
I didn't want to get into an argument about who was in which class, it was more about the comparison between the classes of 1986 and 2002 and their comparative merits.

But you cannot seriously call de Angelis (2 wins) a Mansell (31 wins and 1 WDC) beater!


Relax, i'm not after an argument! But I find it strange when people talk so highly of Mansell in comparision to Elio when Elio clearly was the better driver when they were teammates at Lotus.

#48 mp4

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Posted 12 October 2002 - 23:03

Andy,
I was in Montreal for the '86 race and have a few memories to share.
We were in the right place to see Patrick Tambay's Lola suffer a nasty, but ultimately safe, moment as, I think, his suspension failed and he had a very lurid 100m spin and crash. He got out of his car ok and proceeded to collapsed on the grass!
I had the opportunity to ask Rob Walker how he rated the Montreal 'loos. He let out quite a laugh when the question was posed.
Jo Ramirez, of McLaren fame, went out of his way to get some promotional stickers for us, when we asked.
The Metro closed down early on Saturday and we were stranded, heaven knows where. A taxi ride fixed us up.
We were camped, illegally, on Ille St. Helen (?)
All in all, a fantastic weekend

#49 911

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Posted 13 October 2002 - 04:00

My favorite 1986 moments:

1) Senna winning Detroit.
2) Senna pipping Mansell in Jerez.
3) Mansell's tyre bursting in Adelaide and this lead to Prost's 2nd title.

1986 was a great year, with the exception of the tragic loss of de Angelis. Three drivers had a chance for the WDC going into the very last race. Bloody incredible! After Mansell went out, Piquet could have easily gone on to win his 3rd title, but Goodyear called him in as a safety measure. Therefore, Prost took the title. All three drivers deserved to win the title that year. Damn, that was great stuff!

911

#50 Roger Clark

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Posted 13 October 2002 - 14:06

Originally posted by Ian McKean


I would love to know if this wonderful expression was used by anyone prior to Tom Lehrer in his "Fight Fiercely Harvard".


I don't know whether he was the first, but it was actually "Golden College Days", not "Fight Fiercely Harvard"