48 replies to this topic

[Allen Brown]

In amongst all the Chevy V8s, a few other engines were tried in F5000. In 1969 and 1970, Plymouth engines were tried in Eagles, a Pontiac was tried in a Lola T300 in 1972 and Penske and Donahue tried an AMC engine in their T330 in 1973. None of them worked too well.

Can anyone tell me what actual engines would have been used for this? I guess they were all V8s but that's about all I know.

Thanks

Allen

[Ray Bell]

They were based on 318s, Allen... maybe with 271 cranks and bored out like the 302 Chev was a essentially 283 crank with a 327 bore...

My nephew is right into this stuff, he tells me about special heads you can get for them. Not much has sunk in, but I did see the other week how dramatically different the heads for a 318 truck engine are from a car engine.

There would have been big port heads just as Ford made the Boss heads for the Mustang.

Obviously the engine was a Trans-Am development originally. And Chrysler were very drag racing oriented too, so these sources would have been tapped.

I don't know about the Pontiac at all, they did have an engine of their own parallel to Chevy's 327/350 line.

You aren't neglecting the P76 engine, are you?

[ray b]

pontiac ram air 5 was a trans -am type motor built just for raceing
round ports [big] 301 ci about 400hp "stock" and very rare

mopar had a little wedge 271 318 340 ci with big valve heads and 6 pack carbs[3 two's]
Dans G's AAR cudas used a 30x version in trans am

roger P's team raced for AMC and had a trick 30x motor too

all the above were race only motors that looked somewhat stock outside but were
total tricked out race motors inside with custom parts built to run in trans-am 5.0 L rules
67 chevy 302 Z-28 was the first trans -am race built motor but everyone copyed it
but none were a lot better then chevy's!!! thats still true today!!!!

[mp4]

In '73 or maybe '74, almost every F5000 race in North America was won by a G.M. power plant.
The lone exception was one win by Shadow. They used a Chrysler based V8.
I wish I could recall the exact details but this addled brain starts to hurt when it's put to use...
Perhaps one of the fellow TNFers could shead some light on this.
Any pics would be a bonus as this was a great series, even if it never received the attention so richly deserved.
By the way, Mr. B., an excellent question.

[island]

I found Motoring News`report on the 1973 Watkins Glen L&M. The story says that the Penske
Lola T330 had a destroked 366cid engine from the team`s NASCAR AMC Matador. The unit was
130 lbs heavier than a Chevrolet F5000 powerplant.

[Frank de Jong]

IIRC the Shadow's engine was a Dodge, to be precise.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by island
I found Motoring News`report on the 1973 Watkins Glen L&M. The story says that the Penske
Lola T330 had a destroked 366cid engine from the team`s NASCAR AMC Matador. The unit was
130 lbs heavier than a Chevrolet F5000 powerplant.

I sincerely doubt that weight difference...

130lbs is a lot when a Chevrolet engine is a pretty heavy lump anyway. And what was the starting size for the AMC engine? Remember, the 'small block' Chevy went out to 350 and then 400cid.

By the way, Frank, I think you'll find that all the Chrysler family shared the same engines.

[Milan Fistonic]

Donohue in his book states that "we thought the only difference we couldn't overcome was the fact that our AMC motor was about 100 pounds heavier than the Chevrolet."

"All we had to do was buy a competitive chassis, stuff our proven AMC 302-inch TransAm motor in it, and go out and collect the money - or Roger would..."

Traco compared the AMC and Chevrolet motors and showed that the AMC engine had less power down low but more up top.

"At 8000 rpm our best was 497 horespower, while 480 was all we could get out of the Chevrolet."

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by mp4
In '73 or maybe '74, almost every F5000 race in North America was won by a G.M. power plant.
The lone exception was one win by Shadow. They used a Chrysler based V8.
I wish I could recall the exact details but this addled brain starts to hurt when it's put to use...
Perhaps one of the fellow TNFers could shead some light on this.
Any pics would be a bonus as this was a great series, even if it never received the attention so richly deserved.
By the way, Mr. B., an excellent question.

Quite true - a single win for a Shadow-Dodge. In the last five seasons of US F5000, the only years for which I have complete results (so far!) this was the only non-Chevy win.

To give you some further perspective, top 6 finishes over this period were: Chev 220, Dodge 6, AMC 6, Ford (Cosworth DFV) 5, Repco Holden 1, Pontiac 1 and Ford (Boss) 1. The Plymouth was earlier and I'm not sure it ever finished a race.

Allen

[Ray Bell]

The semi-Repco developed Leyland P76 scored a few wins, of course...

John Goss also very briefly flirted with a Ford Cleveland 302 engine in a Matich chassis.

The Repco Holden scored a win at Riverside in 1971, followed by a second place at Laguna Seca. In Australian racing they were almost dominant during the early F5000 years.

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by Ray Bell

By the way, Frank, I think you'll find that all the Chrysler family shared the same engines.

I knew, Ray, that's why I added the word "precise"

[Ray Bell]

I should have realised...

And to think I put "I think" in my post!

Not very precise...

[island]

A 1970 copy of Car Life has a story on Swede Savage`s Zeus Development FA Eagle-Plymouth.
It tells us that the engine is a destroked version of the 340cid Plymouth which powered
the 4WD USAC Lotus-Plymouths in 1969. Sam Posey and George Follmer raced these cars
in most of the 1969 USAC road races.
Japanese Hiroshi Fushida took a third (Seattle) and a fifth (Laguna Seca) in the Zeus Eagle-Plymouth in the 1970 Continental series.

The 1975/1976 Dodge F5000 unit was a descendant of a TransAm powerplant, a Car & Driver
report says. It had a bore of 4.04 inches and a stroke of 2.96 inches (Chevrolet: 4.00 x 3.00).
Motoring News suggests that the Dodge unit started life as the same motor that was run
in the 1970 All American Racers TransAm Plymouth Barracudas.

[Don Capps]

I emailed Allen information on the SCCA regs for the stock blocks.

[Ray Bell]

According to this site the 4.04" bore was the standard for the 340cid engine. If you look you'll see that there is no stroke shorter than 3.31" in any of the engines, so the crank throws were shortened quite a bit.

Interesting specs there... but it doesn't say which blocks were different... whether, for instance, the 360 was the same family as the 340 or the 426... at a guess I'd say the latter.

[Rainer Nyberg]

The original set of rules stated that, F5000 engines must be derived from any of the following mass production iron-block-and-headed American units : American Motors 287, 290, 327, 343 - Buick 300, 340, 350 - Chevrolet 283, 302, 307, 237, 350 - Chrysler 340 - Dodge 273, 318, 361 - Ford 260, 289, 302, 352 - Kaiser Jeep 327 - Mercury 260, 289, 302 - Oldsmobile 330, 350 - Plymouth 273, 318, 361 - Pontiac 326, 350. The only aluminum engines allowable were the Buick/Oldsmobile/Rover 215 (I guess thanks to the availablily of such engines in Britain).

The 350 cui/5000cc max limit was achieved by altering the bore and stroke accordingly.

But as already noted most ended up using a Chevrolet 302 as it needed no altering of bore and stroke and it was the most cost-effective unit.

[Allen Brown]

OK, I think I'm beginning to understand.

Like Chev, Pontiac was a division of GM. Ray B says the Pontiac engine was the "Ram Air V" so I guess that's was appeared in Sandy Shepard's Lola T300 in 1972. One thing I did find on the web was this:

http://www.pontiacserver.com/ap8.html
On the '70 engine scene, Pontiac announced a 303 solid lifter engine rated 290 horsepower for use in the Trans-Am Firebird. This was at the height of factory participation in the Trans-Am road racing series and Pontiac was thinking of jumping in with both feet. The 303 was a destroked 400 Ram Air IV engine but with a solid lifter camshaft and some other special items. The engine was never produced except for a few experimental units.

Also from GM is the Chev was the (4.04 x 3.00 V8) 302ci engine, the Buick/Oldsmobile engine that's usually quoted at 4500cc and the Holden. I don't know the origins of the Holden engine that Repco used in F5000.

Chrysler owned Plymouth and Dodge so those engines were effectively the same (4.04 x 2.96 V8).

AMC was American Motors and their engine seems to have been different again. They weren't bought by Chrysler until 1987. Island says above that this engine was "a destroked 366cid engine from the team`s NASCAR AMC Matador".

Phew! I'm learning!

Allen

[Don Capps]

Phew! I'm learning!

Exactly, Allen! There is information which is obvious to some of us which is not at all obvious -- or the linkage obscure -- to others. Most of this was a part of our lives. The rules for Trans Am engines were initially quite different and allowed you to bring an engine up to 305/5-litres, but not down to that displacement. The rules changed in 1970 and Jerry Titus used a destroked 402-cubic inch block in his Firebird, this not being the ideal approach at first glance but Jerry was trying to get as big a bore as he could. Unfortunately, Titus was killed at Elkhart Lake that season before they ironed out the problems.

As for Zeus, they were working closely with the two MOPAR Trans Am teams -- AAR (Plymouth/ Gurney and Swede Savage) and Autodynamics (Dodge/ Posey). The potential seemed to be there, but one of the few Truths in Racing (as in Life) is that like electricity, teams usually opt for the line of least resistance and the small block Chevrolet was exactly that, especially with all the folks like Traco, Morand, Alan Smith, HRE, and so on breathing on the engines. Unlike most here, I am always interested in who built the engines since you could literally look at them after some experience and tell who screwed it together. Naturally, some were better than others and some were better some seasons than others....

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
....I don't know the origins of the Holden engine that Repco used in F5000.

General Motors-Holden built it completely in Australia... it used some components from the Holden sixes of the time and came in 253 and 308cid capacities. It is not the same as the Chevy, having replaced the 307cid Chev engine used in the HK model Holdens when the HT was released.

AMC was American Motors and their engine seems to have been different again. They weren't bought by Chrysler until 1987. Island says above that this engine was "a destroked 366cid engine from the team`s NASCAR AMC Matador".

And island is wrong... you'll see that this is contradicted by Milan Fistonic quoting Mark Donohue's book... it was their Trans-Am engine... much more reasonable, as the Trans-Am used the same capacity engines as F5000.

Keep on learning...

Now... do we get into Don's mention of those who 'breathed upon them'... people like Traco, Bartz, Morand etc?

And I think there is more to the universality of the Chevy's use. It was a better engine, having a good weight, good ports, good bits availability, good basic dimensions.

Should I also mention that later players used flat plane cranks? Or that one of Repco's big deals in making the Holden work out was ensuring that the valves rotated? Or that the Leyland P76 engine was basically a long stroke Rover (nee Buick) with an inch more deck height?

Why has nobody else mentioned this engine, with seemingly enjoyed as much success as any other non-Chevrolet unit?

[ray b]

BIG BLOCK and little blocks after mid 60's
all motors on a line swap parts mostly

chevy 348 396 402 409 427 454 all same BIG BLOCK {RAT}
265 283 301 302 305 307 327 350 and 400 little blocks [mouse] plus other sized
mixed race motors 292 331 377 383 non factory sized mix and match parts mouse motors
new alloy 346 doesnot swap parts with older mouse motors

ford 221 260 289 301 351w little blocks
boss 301 and 351C hipo little blocks
352 old style 390 406 427 430 460 big blocks old style
428 429 and new 460 2style big blocks after 68

mopar all same 273 318 340 small blocks
no matter what make
383 413 426 440 big non-hemis wedgeheads
426 new hemi 64
old hemi 392 and other smaller versions in 50s
360 was a later smog motor not a racer


pontiac all big blocks even the ram airV [5]
303 326 350 389 421 428 455 all same big block

olds 330 350 400 401 455 all same big block

buick old 330 401 nail head small valves pre 70
in 70 buick had a 350 400 455 big block thin wall new motor
BUT the buick bigie was smalller and lighter that a small chevy mouse motor!!!!!!!!!!
455 stage 1 was the most power full stock GM motor!!!!!
I wonder why they never raced much

note GM had 4 different big blocks in 70 chevy 454 olds 455 pontiac 455 and buick 455
all were seprate motors no parts swap between them

buick olds alloy 215 was the same motor as the holden or the rover 3500 4.0 4.5 4.9
repco F-1 motor and that unit is still in landrovers today
GM had a 215 alloy turbo version back in 62

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by ray b
.....Buick olds alloy 215 was the same motor as the Holden or the rover 3500 4.0 4.5 4.9
repco F-1 motor and that unit is still in landrovers today
GM had a 215 alloy turbo version back in 62

Let's nip this one in the but before it gets away...

As mentioned in my previous post, the Holden motor was unique to Holden. It used parts from the Holden 6, which was unique to Holden though very similar to the larger Chevy 6 and the (still different) Vauxhall 6, all of these coming into being in the same era (1960?-1963).

It is not anything like the alloy engine. Photos of the engine (don't have time to post one now) show the port arrangement is different to Chevy etc. I believe it is a tad lighter than the Chev (a few pounds only) and it isn't as inherently strong, particularly with valve seat distortion at high temperatures. This is why they had to make sure the valves rotated.

An impressive list, ray b, you did leave Cadillac off it, and Studebaker... and the top-range Chevys... and you didn't mention the separate lineage of the earlier Chevys, which I know came in 409 and 427 size.

Should have... Dan'l raced one of them...

[Gerr]

Getting back to Allen's original question:

The AMC V8 engine, a new design in 1966 and further refined in 1969, was used in American Motors Corporation (the merger of Hudson and Nash-Kelvinator) vehicles. Ramblers, Gremlins, Hornets, AMXs, Matadors, etc.
This link has more details on AMC V8 history,
http://home.att.net/...ech/AMCRFAQ.txt

The Plymouth and Dodge engines are based on the 273 cu. in. V8 engine introduced in 1964 in NA. These are known as "LA series" engines, a small block. They were used in various Plymouths, Dodges and Chryslers in 273, 318 and 340 cu sizes, all with a 3.31" stroke. The 1971 and later 360 is a still an "LA" but with a longer stroke.

[ray b]

chevy RATS 409 and 427 are in the list of BIG BLOCKS

caddy were biggest but never raced their 500ci motor rated at 500 fp of tork
only in the 50's in allards

studebakers?? gone before tran-am or F-5000 or even can-am

when he said repco-holden I thought that was a updated f-1 repco-buick 215
we never see holdens in usa!!!!!!

[Allen Brown]

Wow - this is really helpful!

A couple of follow-up questions for you:

What was the Holden engine used in various libre Coopers and the like in Australia in the early to mid-1960's?

Can anyone suggest what was the 3-litre "Ansen-Chevrolet" used by Clint Cavin in a Cooper in US SCCA FA racing in 1966/67?

Thanks

Allen

[Ray Bell]

Clearing up time, I guess...

Various Cooper Holdens were all 6-cylinder cars, to the best of my knowledge. The 'red engine' 7-bearing Holden 6 came out in 1963, there may have been one fitted with the old 4-bearing 'sideplate' 'grey engine' somewhere, but I don't recall any. A couple had Ford V8s fitted.

ray b... weren't the earlier 427 and 409 a different family to the 396? I think the 396 and the later 427 were derived from the 'porcupine' engine that appeared some time about 1962 and showed a lot of power... is that right?

Getting back to the Chrysler engines, I understand that there was a head brought out for drag usage on the small block engines. It was called the W head and had a different valve orientation as well as better porting, this requiring different rockers as these engines use a rocker shaft... unlike most other V8s of the period.

Can you shed any light on that, ray b... such as when it was introduced?

[Ray Bell]

Repco's F5000 engine...



Note the spacing of the inlets compared to the Chevy.

[ray b]

ray b... weren't the earlier 427 and 409 a different family to the 396? I think the 396 and the later 427 were derived from the 'porcupine' engine that appeared some time about 1962 and showed a lot of power... is that right?

as far as I know the 409 and 427 porcupines were trick heads used for nastycar racing and drags
they used solid lifters and forged parts, 4bolt mains ,with other trick parts!!
BUT the eng block was the basic RAT motor that started in 58 with the 348 tri power [3 two barrel carbs] allso made in 360, 396,409,427, 454,and 502 sized blocks, 360 is a truck motor and 502 is a boat racer unit allso used in hotrods/drags but not ever used in production cars
al alloy head and blocks versions were made too but all are called RATs, and some parts will swap between the motors of different years
after about 1980 GM droped the BUICK OLDS and PONTIAC motors and rebadged both mouse and rat motors as BOP units, even caddy got a rebadged mouse motor a few years.
BOP rats were race only replacement units not used in GM production cars at all, allso used al alloy heads, most BOP-rat parts will bolt onto a old chevy rat block as they are the same motor.

little mopars were something I donot know a lot about, dad had a facel vega HK-500 with a 58 392 hemi and a facel-II with a 413 maxwedge, but I stayed with GM and fords to hotrod.
maybe 1970 with the 340 la motor??? they had a trick 340 with the 6-pack[ 3-two barrel carbs again] in dusters and cudas

[Ian McKean]

Somebody called John Bowtell raced a F5000 McLaren in the UK with a Rover engine. It was tuned by someone called Jack something-or-other, IIRC. He managed to enlarge it to the full 5 litres, without, IIRC, resorting to a P76 block. However, its reliability was woeful.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Ian McKean
Somebody called John Bowtell raced a F5000 McLaren in the UK with a Rover engine. It was tuned by someone called Jack something-or-other, IIRC. He managed to enlarge it to the full 5 litres, without, IIRC, resorting to a P76 block. However, its reliability was woeful.

John Cannon also raced with a Gene Crowe motor that was variously called
an Olds and a Rover in the back of his '72 March F5000 (which I've seen
referred to both as 72A - consistent with other March F5000s - and 725).

The car was the same kind of deal as the later 721G - F2 tub with beefed
up rear end for a bigger engine. Looked great, didn't win any races IIRC.

pete

[Ray Bell]

Traco were taking Olds engines out to five litres as early as 1967, maybe even 1966... these were used in Sports Cars and had no undue reliability problems.

[Viss1]

BUT the eng block was the basic RAT motor that started in 58 with the 348 tri power [3 two barrel carbs] allso made in 360, 396,409,427, 454,and 502 sized blocks, 360 is a truck motor and 502 is a boat racer unit allso used in hotrods/drags but not ever used in production cars
348 and 409 share the same architecture. Engineers concentrated on the 409, eventually boring it out to 427ci for race use. This was a different engine than the later "Rat" engine.

The 396 debuted in '65. It was a brand new design, owing little to the 348/409. It quickly grew into the 427, and a few years later the 402 and 454. The 502 is a descendant, sold as a crate engine as you state.

I'm not aware of a Chevy 360. They did make a 366 truck engine... IIRC it's related to the later big block design.

BOP rats were race only replacement units not used in GM production cars at all, allso used al alloy heads, most BOP-rat parts will bolt onto a old chevy rat block as they are the same motor.
Pontiac 400 and 455 big blocks are unrelated to the Chevy design. They were powerhouses in their own right, but are a different design. Same with the Buick and Olds 455's. All were installed in production cars of their respective make.

[Ray Bell]

I'm sure you're right about the 396 being a brand new design, Viss1...

That's why I posted the query earlier. I have a strong recollection of reading about its introduction, I would think that was for the 1963 model year, but it may have been '64 or even '65.

This would have been the engine used (in alloy form... was it the ZL1?) by many of the Can-Am competitors, wouldn't it?

Of course there was an alloy version of the small block sold in the Gran Sport Corvettes (did we have a thread on them previously?) in that same era, and these (I'm fairly sure) were also used in the Chaparrals of the time.

[ray b]

ZL1 was a old "W" version 427 porcupine
so 348-409-427-ZL1 will swap parts
newer 366-396-427-454 post 1965 revision
btw newer 59x version are now out in crates

so chevy had a old al alloy 427 and newer iron versions
for sale in the same cars at the same time??67??
thats where I got lost thinking they all swap parts

btw Viss1 I said by 1980 the other big blocks were gone
replaced by chevys with stickers in cratemotors
and mouse motors in BOP& even caddy cars some years/models


buicks little alloy 215v8 would take the 330 v8iron blocks crank
from it's big brother for a eazy cheap bump up near 5.0

[Viss1]

ZL1 was a old "W" version 427 porcupine so 348-409-427-ZL1 will swap parts
I'm almost positive the ZL1 was based on the later Rat design. GM wouldn't have created an aluminum version of an obsolete engine. Productionwise, the engine found its way into a few Camaros and Corvettes as engineering test/quasi-production vehicles, and almost made it as an actual RPO for the '69 Camaro and Vette.

btw Viss1 I said by 1980 the other big blocks were gone replaced by chevys with stickers in cratemotors
Sorry - the part about interchanging BOP parts with Chevy engines confused me.

[ray b]

Originally posted by Viss1
ZL1 was a old "W" version 427 porcupine so 348-409-427-ZL1 will swap parts
I'm almost positive the ZL1 was based on the later Rat design. GM wouldn't have created an aluminum version of an obsolete engine. Productionwise, the engine found its way into a few Camaros and Corvettes as engineering test/quasi-production vehicles, and almost made it as an actual RPO for the '69 Camaro and Vette.

btw Viss1 I said by 1980 the other big blocks were gone replaced by chevys with stickers in cratemotors
Sorry - the part about interchanging BOP parts with Chevy engines confused me.

well I search a parts seller for big block parts and common stuff for the ZL1 was listed as "W"
like gaskets or pistons or valve covers
but I still think some stuff would swap between "W"s and 454 blocks and main big redue was heads but main journals were different to as were borexstrokes a little
btw "W" name comes from the way the valve cover looks so visual ID is eazy
alloy was new teck for chevy, and using old parts was common they used a strait6 forever
37 to 8? with very few mod's


iron 455 motors are originals BOP motors pre 80 or 81
454 or al alloy heads or blocks are chevys with a BOP sticker
[note I call them stickers but some are cast into the parts]
olds 455 can-am mac motors were one offs not done by GM
Al Co did them to show their teck in late 60s

[Ray Bell]

I'm not sure when the 'Blue Flame' six that we knew so well in the fifties began, I thought it started its career in the '29 Chev. Having said that, I know it changed at some point from a three-main bearing engine to a four-bearing.

But whenever it started, it didn't run with 'very few mods' into the eighties at all.

Up until at least 1955 it was a splash feed engine, with dippers on the end of the conrods to cut through the oil in the pan and hopefully force some through into the big end bearings.

By 1962, and I don't know when, there was a seven-main bearing engine with hydraulic lifters introduced. I think it was the standard engine in the Chevy II standard engine, with a 4-cyl version also offered and a dealer-installed 327 available.

The 'Blue Flame' six was never very popular in racing despite its ohv arrangement in a world of side valve engines (L-heads), the splash feed bearings being too much of a burden to wear. It is possible that this engine did get pressure-fed big ends before it was supplanted, but I don't know.

[Viss1]

Originally posted by ray b
btw "W" name comes from the way the valve cover looks so visual ID is eazy

The ZL1 was a development of the Mk. IV big block. It definitely did not have 409-type valve covers. Pics and info here. GM discontinued development of the 348/409 when the Mk. IV was introduced. I suspect that any "W" used for ordering parts refers to some type of production code.

[Ray Bell]

Aha... what a story that is!

Included is this little detail...

#33 124379N610732 Hugger orange 4-speed
#52 124379N620934 Hugger orange automatic
Sold new by Rathmann Chevrolet in Florida, both cars went to
Melbourne Australia to be raced. #33 is a road racer, #52
was a drag racer. #33 has recently been restored to its
original racing trim and remains "down under".

A couple of years ago I wrote the story of the road racing car... I guess some might like to read that, so I've uploaded this Word file for you to read.

Interesting is the fact that the cars here were described as being of different colours, one red and one blue... I wonder if other facts have gone astray?

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Ian McKean
Somebody called John Bowtell raced a F5000 McLaren in the UK with a Rover engine. It was tuned by someone called Jack something-or-other, IIRC. He managed to enlarge it to the full 5 litres, without, IIRC, resorting to a P76 block. However, its reliability was woeful.

John Bowtell was a friend of a friend of mine. Said friend was a mechanic on the car. Perhaps I can get him in here to comment.

This is the beast....

[ray b]

there are 63 ZL-1 castings al alloy 427 "W"

and 69 ZL-1 IV castings al 427 mark4 rats

what came between in 64-68??

[Ian McKean]

Originally posted by David Beard


John Bowtell was a friend of a friend of mine. Said friend was a mechanic on the car. Perhaps I can get him in here to comment.

This is the beast....

Yes, it would be interesting to find out a bit more about enlarging Rovers' 215 engine to 5 litres. I used to know John since he worked at British Leyland KD Division, where I worked once, and then he set up a garage selling Suzuki Vitaras. The last I heard he had sold up and become a well-heeled gentleman of leisure. I lost touch with him long ago so I shall leave it to you to entice him in here if you can.

[Viss1]

Originally posted by ray b
there are 63 ZL-1 castings al alloy 427 "W"

and 69 ZL-1 IV castings al 427 mark4 rats

what came between in 64-68??

This FAQ, along with this site, sheds a lot of light on the "W" question. Since Chevy was playing around with the "mystery motor" (which was actually the research/race version of the Mk. IV) in '63-'64, I suppose an alloy version or two could have been built. It would have been the Mk. IV design, though, since the iron Mk. IV was already in production cars by late '64.

[bobzdar]

The pontiac engine was assuredly a 303, but it may have had a raIV top end on it instead of the raV. The raV had ports that were actually too large for the 303 and made less usable power than the IV cylinder heads (though maybe slightly more peak power), and they discontinued development of the raV after '70, but since the 303 was essentially a destroked 400, the raIV top end would be easilly adapted. Here's a picture of a RAV fitted with an algon fuel injection system likely similar to what would have been used in f5000.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Can anyone suggest what was the 3-litre "Ansen-Chevrolet" used by Clint Cavin in a Cooper in US SCCA FA racing in 1966/67?

Ansen Automotive was a Southern California parts manufacturer. I know they were involved in Drag Racing. I believe they mainly concentrated on aluminum parts. My first thought is a Chevrolet engine with some aluminum Ansen parts (would the rules have allowed for such exotica then?). Or perhaps it's as simple as Ansen being the sponsor and or preparing the engine.

Allen, do a search for both Ansen Automotive and Ansen. I believe they are still around, just not under the name Ansen Automotive (it's still Ansen, just not Ansen Automotive).

Not a lot, but I hope that helps.


Jim Thurman

[Don Capps]

Following along in Jim's path ref the Ansen-Chevrolet -- with the displacement limit being only 3-litres at the time, consider that Chevrolet had just introduced a new staight-six for the 1963 model year -- the 194-cubic inch mill which was standard on the Chevy II Nova SS. I think that this was the unit they used in the Clint Cavin car. I know it was a hot item with the BowTie guys in the Street/Stock classes and even the rod classes for awhile. Too bad I don't have my issues of Hot Rod....

[Ray Bell]

Thanks for putting a year on that engine, Don...

I reckon you'd mean for the '63 model year, though... on sale around October, '62?

Allen, this would make the Cooper involved very similar to the Australian Cooper-Holdens... though the Holden engine might have been an inch or so shorter overall.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Thanks for putting a year on that engine, Don...

I reckon you'd mean for the '63 model year, though... on sale around October, '62?

Allen, this would make the Cooper involved very similar to the Australian Cooper-Holdens... though the Holden engine might have been an inch or so shorter overall.

Ray,

Correct on about when the engine and the 1963 models were introduced. I later bought a 1963 Impala SS convertible (1874) with the 327 (L74) and the obligatory Hurst shifter of course....

The 194 was really a big jump beyond the usual 6's that the BowTie cranked out -- it was a pretty nice mill and could take a lot of speed parts...

[Ray Bell]

I think you'll find the same of the Holden and Vauxhall engines of the era as well...

Similar architecture, outside appearances deceptively close to each other, minor variations in overall dimensions, centre to centre distances and the like.

The Holden became a bit more prone to preferring a lower rev limit when it went to 202, but versions came in 138, 149, 161, 173, 179, 186 and 202 cubic inches. I have no idea what the Vauxhalls ran, but I would think in the 170 to 205 range.

Holdens also brought out a 4-cyl model, which was used in Commodore's poverty version, Toranas and Toyota Coronas. I don't think Vauxhall ever used a 4-cyl version of theirs, going for overhead came engines in that size, one being fairly unique in the valvegear as I recall ... in fact, some were used in specialist cars and in a dedicated racing class.

The Chev units were rare birds here, any cars imported in that era came with V8s, but the odd engine came in for speedway or racing use. 4-cyls for speedway, as far as I know one or two 6-cyls for Torana Sports Sedans whose owners wanted to have a bit of a lead on their opposition with the homegrown product.

That became unnecessary when someone one day discovered that, with modifications, the Falcon 250 crank fitted the 186 block and a much larger capacity was available.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Ian McKean


Yes, it would be interesting to find out a bit more about enlarging Rovers' 215 engine to 5 litres. I used to know John since he worked at British Leyland KD Division, where I worked once, and then he set up a garage selling Suzuki Vitaras. The last I heard he had sold up and become a well-heeled gentleman of leisure. I lost touch with him long ago so I shall leave it to you to entice him in here if you can.

It sounds as though we might once have moved in similar circles, Ian.

Recall that silly restoration programme on UK tv about restoring the ex Keith Holland Lola t142? That car also was raced by John Bowtell.