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The first monocoque F1


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#51 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 03:55

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
Hi guys,

I have been annoying, eh? Just doing my job. Nobody on the planet is more annoying than DCN when he is right and the really annoying thing is that he is more often right than not.

One of my favourite books, I mean books of any kind, from any period, is Doug Nye's 'Motor Racing Mavericks'. We need an update, but first there has to be a publisher. The publisher is the problem and the terrible thing is, these days, not all publishers co9mply with what I woukd call a code of conduct.

On the Lawrie Bond issue, I think the debate should be closed to everyone save those of us who were dumb enough to buy a Bond Minicar. Hello, My name is Mike and I bought a Bond Minicar. I was young at the time.

Lawrie Bond did design a 2.5-litre V8 air-cooled F1 engine which was made as a single-cylinder unit and run by Connaught In prototype form it spewed oil everywhere. I once had an original drawing of this engine, which had sleeve valves if memory serves me right, and I gave it to a chap called Rabagliati whereupon it was sucked into the maw of his collection and was never seen again. Duncan's house is like Dr Who's Tardis, there is more inside than you can imagine from the outside.

Oi, Rabagliati, I want returned my brochure for the Lion Grand Prix car, the F1 car with the twelve wheels and no brake pedal. You think I am joking? I alerted DCN and it was he who wrote the feature for Autosport. If Doug and I had been sharing some really good weed, we might have come up with such a story, but it is a long time since the Sixties. The Lion Grand Prix car was a project and it had twelve wheels and each of those twelve wheels was designed to carry power and braking and also to steer.

Forget about Chevrolet, Voison and Chap,am. what happend to David Cox and the Lion Grand Prix project? I believe that I last met David Cox at least 15 years after Doug wrote his piece but Cox was utteing gibberish, but gibberish which got him government funding. I assume you know all about the Cox H-8 F1 engie which was once condsidered to be an option by some F1 teams.

That must be a tale for another day.

Do I only annoy> Can't I at least irritate?


You kept that weed to yourself, didn't you?

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#52 Allen Brown

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 09:42

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
One of my favourite books, I mean books of any kind, from any period, is Doug Nye's 'Motor Racing Mavericks'.

Snap!

Great post Mike. And if you get your brochure back, try to liberate the March factory records at the same time, will you?

Allen

#53 Bonde

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 00:43

As I am an aerospace structures design engineer, I’ve followed this and related threads with interest. With this post, I hope to contribute my tuppence worth to the debate, which to me appears to be mostly correct in both intent and content, but perhaps clouded somewhat due to semantics.

To the best of my knowledge, the term ‘monocoque’ originated in France (‘coque’ means ‘shell’ in French) with Louis Bechereau’s superb tulip wood veneer fuselage on the ‘Monocoque’ Deperdussin racing Monoplane of 1912, although I would venture to guess that such as Albatross and Pfalz were into wooden stressed skin fuselage structures at around the same time, certainly prior to the outbreak of hostilities in 1914. As many other things in early aviation, stressed skin wooden structures were inspired by the boat building industry.

In aerospace structural terminology, the word ‘monocoque’ basically means a stressed skin structure, with the skin itself able to carry all loads without the need for additional stabilizing elements. In aviation, ‘true’ monocoque structure is actually quite rare, as the mere physical size of aircraft and the loads encountered are such that the skin would need to be too thick, and thus too heavy, in order not to buckle in compression and shear. Thus, most aircraft structure was (and is) of the so-called ‘semi-monocoque’ variety, where additional stiffening members are added, and often also having significant additional axial load carrying members in the main load paths – typically at the geometrical extremities where the major loads tend to flow naturally anyway. Notable ‘true monocoque’ exceptions are Rutan’s foam-cored composite structures and all those kit aircraft inspired by them – these are much closer relatives to modern composite materials racing car chassis structures.

The term ‘monocoque’ is, as someone pointed out, sometimes used to describe the combined chassis/body structure of saloon cars, although in English speaking countries I believe this is more often termed ‘unitary construction’. I’ve also come across the definition of a ‘true’ monocoque as a stressed skin chassis where the outer skins constitute the bodywork – and to add to the confusion, ‘semi-monocoque’ (as opposed to ‘full’) describing a stressed skin structure with no structural roof over the footwell (what is typically called a ‘bath tub’ – though any chassis is often termed ‘a tub’)! In a racing car, ‘unitary construction’ would thus be a car with no separate body panels – such as Barnard’s original MP4s! So whether the chassis is exposed to the airflow or not should IMO not decide what name the chassis structure is given. Confusing, isn’t it…

Personally, I prefer to call a stressed skin chassis just that… a stressed skin chassis – regardless of the arguments of naming them monocoque versus semi-monocoque or ‘Ferrari aero-style’, versus ‘two large parallel tube chassis’, etc., which is to me more a question of semantics – they are all stressed skin structures because: 1) The structure relies on its outer skins (whether this is exposed to the elements or not is beside the point) for it load-carrying capability – remove the skins and the structure collapses, 2) skin gage is small enough relative to panel size to make skin buckling a critical failure mode and 3) they all need some additional structural members at load introduction points and to carry loads around apertures.

Personally, I also find the Ferrari ‘Aero’ to be a confusing misnomer. Yes, aircraft structure is sometimes manufactured in a manner where the outer skins are riveted on to pre-assembled substructure, and yes, most of the time additional longerons are located at the main load paths, but never is (or was AFAIK) aircraft substructure manufactured from a welded-up steel tubular framework with stressed skin draped over. Lots of English chassis called ‘monocoques’ were in fact also made this way, except the welded steel tube bulkheads were just not joined by longerons as done in the Italian chassis – axial loads were carried in the skins only, but just folding and joining a couple of longitudinal flanges in the skin does the same job structurally as a longeron. I don’t know why Ferrari persisted with the welded steel substructure for so long, I can only guess that they were more comfortable with its manufacture – it was jigged like a (very complex!) welded tubular steel space frame, with fairly ‘rough’ aluminium alloy sheet skins fitted on afterwards. To my eye, ‘the English way’ was much neater and simpler (fewer parts, less welding and assembly). ‘The English way’, which is more aerospace-like’ to me, did require much more accuracy in the manufacture of the sheet metal components and any welded steel bulkheads and fittings, but the chassis did not require jig-and-component-distorting-welding-heat to assemble – making a riveted stressed skin chassis assembly jig simpler than its welded steel tube counterpart. Still, the ‘Ferrari method’ provided fairly safe and efficient concentrated load introduction and distribution – an area where the ‘clean’ English stressed skin structures sometimes left a lot to be desired. It could also be argued that the ‘Ferrari method’ provided a degree of fail-safe or structural redundancy – a damaged skin was both less catastrophic structurally and also easier to repair. Crashworthiness perhaps also seemed to favour the ‘Ferrari method’ – I venture to speculate that Bandini would have been killed instantly in a Lotus and Lauda would have been pinned in his chassis had it been a B3 – and looking at both Sheckter’s and Villeneuve’s huge shunts in Imola in 1980, I would say that their narrow but hefty welded tube longeron T5 chassis stood up extremely well compared to what one could have expected from many British chassis of the time. I also find it conspicuous that most of the monolithic aluminium skinned chassis (especially in smaller sports prototypes) in use today have welded steel tube ‘skeletons’ – who makes all-monolithic aluminium sheet stressed skin chassis today?

Real ‘aero’-style chassis to me would be the pre-1970 integral Tanked Matras – plenty of internal webs keeping torsion box segments short (and thus stiff), and they must’ve been a lot stronger than the very long torsion box chassis with big bag tanks. Remember, for instance, what Rindt’s 49 in Barcelona in ’69 and Richard Robart’s March looked like after their big shunts – with no subdividing webs between the front and the rear bulkheads, the lateral ‘box members of that type (and era) of chassis simply collapsed like empty beer cans – I think an early Matra would have deformed much less – but would probably have spilled fuel…

Going back (nearly!) to the original topic of who made the first ‘monocoque’ racing car chassis, I would say that Spike Rhiando’s ‘Trimax’ of 1950 was the earliest demonstration of the structural concept using an aircraft-style riveted aluminium alloy stressed skin chassis, with efficient bulkheads and fuel carried in the two lateral torsion box-beam members providing stiffness in the open-topped cockpit and engine bay areas and stretching from rear to front suspension – all features of the Lotus 25 of 12 years later. I can’t help but wonder whether ‘Chunky’ was completely unaware of the Trimax or not…

The aircraft industry had been using riveted aluminium alloy stressed skin structure for decades before it caught on in racing car design, so the fact that design and manufacturing expertise was available for quite some time before it was exploited may seem rather odd in hindsight. But the loads on a racing car chassis differ very much from those applied to an aircraft, which may have kept some designers away from the attempt, and one also has to keep in mind the architecture of the typical ca. WWII-era single seater: Fuel volume slung out back, engine in front, narrow track, narrow body with huge cockpit opening: This architecture simply does not have ‘stressed skin structure/no separate bodywork is the obvious solution’ written all over it. Mid engine with lateral fuel tanks, which took the 500cc F3/Cooper ‘revolution’ to be ‘re-invented’ (had Auto Union begun with the C-type, and/or WWII not intervened, front-engined racing cars would have disappeared sooner, I think) made it so much more sensible to go for stressed skin structure – the crux here being (like on the ‘Trimax’) the structurally very efficient use of the relatively large fuel tanks; without them, the very large cockpit (and engine bay) opening did not make stressed skin/no separate bodywork chassis design obvious. Even any ‘unitary construction’ saloon car analogy was not obvious – single seaters do not have a roof and pillars, and most open cars of the time still had a ladder chassis and rather flimsy bodywork.

Some regard the Lotus 25 (or ‘Trimax’ or any other) as essentially ‘twin (very large) tube chassis’, but IMO this does NOT impact its status as a stressed skin structure at all – one could just as easily consider it to be ‘two parallel monocoques joined by bulkheads and stressed skin floor’. It’s such a ‘right’ thing to do due to the cockpit opening and hence the tendency of the chassis to act as two parallel beams in differential bending.

The Lotus 25 was just such a brilliant design, structurally efficient and incredibly neatly packaged – to me it really was the first racing car design where everything appeared to be integrated from the outset. The next neat package was the Lotus 43 and 49: The fuel tanks have considerable section – let them do a structural role – but the engine also has a significant cross-section, so…And it took ‘Chunky’s’ Team to produce the next visibly neat packaging ‘revolution’ (everything packaged in-line to provide room for aerodynamically efficient side pods) – but in all the aerodynamic glee, the structural lessons that led to the 25 15 years earlier in the first place seemed to somehow be forgotten – and, IMO, sent Lotus onto the first stage of its path to eventual demise – Lotus should have dominated the whole ground effects era. Comparing the cross-sections in the cockpit areas of the 25 and the 79, I would think the 25 must be a lot stiffer. What really surprises me is that it took almost three seasons after the inception of ground effects and the ultra narrow chassis with the fuel tank behind driver to become the norm to provide stiffness against differential bending simply by making the structural sections at the cockpit sides as tall as the upper edge of the bodywork. Murray had caught on to it before the others as early as the BT46 – but so had BRM on the ‘overstressed skin’ P25! Strangely, Barnard did not choose the high structural cockpit side option on his original MP4, although that chassis was probably a lot stiffer than any other contemporary due to its carbon composite/sandwich structure, so he probably didn’t foresee the need, whereas Lotus did with their carbon composite chassis. Looking back at it in a casual glance today, the MP4/1 chassis does look rather a lot like a ‘black aluminium’ monolithic skin aluminium chassis of the day – as Barnard was in a new town with the composites, he probably didn’t want to stray too far away from the neighbourhood, whereas the contemporary Lotus looked more like the ‘black’ version of Postlethwaite’s (and subsequently Head’s) folded aluminium honeycomb chassis – complete with the high cockpit sides that had been such an ugly afterthought add-on on the later Lotus aluminium chassis now neatly intergrated instead.

So, in conclusion, I would say that the BRM 25 AFAIK was the first F1 car (anything pre-WW II would not be called ‘F1’) using stressed skin structure in a significant way (even if it was in ‘Ferrari Aero Style’!), and the Lotus 25 the first F1 to use it properly.

Sorry about that long post, folks – I just got carried away as stressed skin (aerospace) structures are what I’ve been doing for a living for more than 20 years…and I even left out a little discourse I had written on stressed skin structural design (which I may fit into another post if anyone is interested).

I’ll just move over…

#54 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 01:20

Thanks for your analysis and efforts... very interesting...

Not much has been said about 'bonding' in this thread, with regard to the use of Araldite or other epoxy glues. Maybe now's a chance?

#55 GeorgeTheCar

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 04:55

I will start off the conversation about bonding with the note that many of the early applications were "belt and suspenders" kind of operations where glue was used to add longevity to a fabricated structure by adding it to a riveted seam. It moved past that as some materials, the afore mentioned Mallite and almost all honeycomb materials depended on adhesives for their very existence.

In most cases designers had to develop a sense of confidence with a material in actual operations before leaving trusted technologies such as riveting.

One thing that is never spoken of any more is the use of adhesive threadlockers. I used to work for Loctite and we had many stories about sweeping parts off the track that had vibrated loose before the general adoption of Loctite's pioneering technologies

#56 Muzza

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 06:39

Originally posted by Bonde
As I am an aerospace structures design engineer, I’ve followed this and related threads with interest. (...)

I’ll just move over…


No, come back!

Excellent post. :up:

#57 Allen Brown

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 08:52

Originally posted by Bonde
Sorry about that long post, folks – I just got carried away …

Anders

Excellent post. A fascinating analysis for me - and I thought I already understood the subject. :stoned:

I'm researching USAC cars from the late 1960s at the moment and this was the time that the US builders started to introduce the monocoque designs that they had seen in the Lotus and Lola. Eagle used Len Terry, ex of Lotus, so their construction is not a surprise, and Bignotti and Foyt had cars to copy but some builders got themselves in a complete knot when they built their first 'tubs'. Laycock, for example, retreated to a space frame design after his 1968/69 monocoque Mongoose. I'm still trying to find out where Vollstedt, Brawner and Gerhardt got their monocoque ideas. It's one thing to take pictures of a well constructed car and then start copying it - it's quite another to understand the design principles behind it.

I look forward to your 'little discourse on stressed skin structural design'.

Cheers

Allen

#58 Bonde

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 15:05

Upon popular (?) demand, here is the nowhere-near exhaustive, but nonetheless probably very exhausting, stressed skin structure discourse I threatened with in my prior post, so please bear with me…

The critical parameters for what static load (fatigue is another issue which would require yet another post!) a given panel of a stressed skin structure is able to carry are the Young’s modulus of the material (its stiffness), the yield strength of the material, its thickness, its area and the relationship between width and height of the panel, the boundary conditions (edge restraint) and panel curvature (if any). The intention, of course, is to select the optimum combination of these parameters that enables carrying of the load with the lightest mass of structure – so material density is thus also added to the equations.

Let’s have a brief look at each of these parameters to see how we can ‘play around’ with them:

Young’s modulus: Stiff means better – but by some interesting quirk of nature, the specific stiffness (i.e. modulus relative to density) of the primary structural metals/alloys, i.e. steel, aluminium, magnesium and titanium, is fairly constant. As increasing thickness helps exponentially, the optimum panel size is larger for the less dense materials, which is one of the reasons we see a lot more aircraft structure made from aluminium alloys rather than from steel or titanium, even though steel and titanium alloys can be produced with much higher specific yield strength than aluminium alloys. In applications where the geometry of the structure does not influence its stability, which basically means in tension members or short, ‘fat’ compression members, the higher specific modulus materials win hands down – but obviously not so on stressed skins unless we move to way stiffer materials such as carbon fibre.

Yield strength (and ultimate strength) : Obviously, the higher, the better – but again, more, weaker material of lesser density helps where the geometry of the structure is important, as in stressed skin structure, and thus again it is actually the specific strength that becomes important. If it is a stiffness-critical rather than a strength-critical structure we’re looking at, ultimate strength may actually never need to be approached. This often means that if the stiffness of the structure is adequate and high, then the strength will usually be sufficient – very few racing car chassis have actually failed globally from normal use, even though they may have been highly flexible, whereas whole wings of aircraft may collapse globally, but not before having deflected in the extreme. As an aside, most racing car chassis structural failures are local and relate to poor detail design at points of load introduction and transfer.

Thickness: This is one that really does wonders: As functions of thickness, and with all else being equal, weight increases linearly, but resistance to bending, and thus to buckling, increases exponentially. Thicker means better – but panel thickness may be traded off by reducing panel size and locating the material in stiffening members at the panel edges, so there is a limit to the optimum thickness that we bump into rather quickly. In this department, sandwich structures really show their worth: Obtain density by filling in the area around the ‘non-productive’ neutral axis with low density material with adequate specific strength and stiffness. Think of ‘Mallite’ and other sandwich structures here. Sandwich panels can thus be very large relative to monolithic panels for a given load.

Area: The smaller the area of each skin panel, the more stable, but the more stiffening members are required in a complete structure of a given area. As mentioned above, sandwich construction enables increasing panel area, and thus minimizing the number of stiffening members.

Height/width relationship: This is typically defined by the geometry of the overall structure and the direction of load. There are two basic ‘schools’ used in aircraft fuselages (which have more similarity with a racing car chassis than the wings do) : Wide frame spacing with short stringer spacing, versus short frame spacing and wide stringer (longeron) spacing – obtaining the optimum compromise also involves manufacturing cost etc. What one rarely sees is square panels – typical panel ‘format’ is approximately 1.4: to 3:1.

Boundary conditions: The more restraint against panel edge rotation, the better. Deep-section edging members (stiffeners or other substructure) with rigid attachment helps the panel immensely – but they add weight which contributes less from the load carrying capability of the skin as it moves away from the surface.

Curvature: Single curvature skins with the rules parallel with axial load helps panel stability immensely – rules perpendicular to the load are detrimental. Happily, the section sizes of stressed skins structures are typically such that a very small portion of the structure at its extremities will carry all the axial load, the majority of the panel seeing shear, where any curvature will always aid panel stability. Compound curvature panels are difficult to make, but due to their geometrical stability, fewer additional stiffening members are needed.

But how does all this lead us into a discussion about the merits of stressed skin construction relative to aircraft and relative to racing cars? Not sure after I read the above again, but please bear with me and I’ll try below:

A typical aerospace structures design exercise is to find the optimum panel/stiffener configuration. As aircraft have to be certified, produced and maintained at the lowest possible cost, additional important parameters are added to that task! For the racing car designer, certification used not to be an issue, but with mandatory crash testing it is now, and cost and maintainability were and are way less important to the racing car designer, even for ‘production’ racing cars, relative to the aircraft designer. Aircraft have to fly reliably with minimal inspection and maintenance for thousands of hours. Not so with racing cars – the chassis typically become obsolete after a few hundred running hours, they receive almost what amounts to a ‘C-check’ every few hours of running, and ‘lifeing’ of components is much more acceptable; in the days of riveted sheet aluminium chassis it was not unusual to replace chassis in the course of the season. Also imagine if airlines or air forces had the same staff-to-vehicle ratio as a current F1 team...not even the richest customers or governments could afford that. Another important difference between aircraft structure and racing car chassis structure is that the flexure of aircraft structures can be accommodated in a way that does not adversely impact flight performance at all (it can even be made beneficial by so-called aeroelastic tailoring), whereas racing cars need to be very stiff for the suspension to work (although active suspension could be made to accommodate a flexible chassis – within reason).

A very important feature of composite structure design is that you actually design the material and its properties concurrently and integrally with the structure. Using isotropic, metallic materials with well-known and well-defined properties makes calculation and certification relatively easy, whereas with composites it gets rather more complicated. This entails that, due to the stringent safety requirements needed by society to enable transportation of humans and goods in a mode where failure means gravity wins every time, the certifying authorities for aircraft are very conservative and that certification of a new material and/or structural concept is an expensive and drawn-out processes. Racing car designers have, or rather had, much more freedom in this respect. This, and other cost issues, had the implication that although adhesively bonded structures in general and carbon fibre composites in particular originated in the aerospace industry, in practical use and degree of structural refinement, the racing car industry has actually surpassed the aviation industry. Kilogram for kilogram, the modern carbon composite racing car chassis is structurally more efficient than practically any aircraft flying or being built today – but also more expensive to procure and maintain.

Although somewhat off-topic, another problem with aircraft, especially combat aircraft, is that they have a very high density of internal equipment that requires easy access for inspection and maintenance. This means removable structural and non structural openings, covers and doors abound, and such are anathema to structure in general and composite structures in particular. Once you have designed a cockpit opening into a racing car chassis you don’t really need to be able to access anything other than the fuel bag and the pedals. In order to overcome this problem in aircraft structural design, there is a trend to attempt to make internal equipment super-reliable and self correcting so that it can be built into the structure with no need for subsequent access.

There are indeed similarities between aircraft structural design and racing car chassis design – but as we have seen there are also some very important, fundamental differences: Both types of structure are dependent on light weight, or rather high specific strength and high specific stiffness, in order to achieve the desired dynamic performance. Aircraft are more strength-critical and durability-critical, and structure buy-and-maintain cost constitutes a significant proportion of overall vehicle and operating cost, whereas racing car chassis were and are more stiffness-critical, although, happily, increased focus on crash safety has put strength at the top of the agenda, and the cost of the basic chassis structure and its maintenance constitutes a much smaller fraction of the overall initial and operational cost of the vehicle.

I think the differences in requirements outlined above, especially when cost is involved in the calculations, is one of the reasons that aircraft stressed skin construction methods took so long to catch on, and are still not universal. The increased affluence of society spills over into racing, but more so at the top level than at the grass roots. As related many times elsewhere, welded tubular steel space frame chassis with separate non-structural body work are so much easier, quicker and cheaper to repair than either aluminium or carbon composite stressed skin chassis, but at the ‘cost’ of higher weight they can actually be made both adequately stiff and quite ‘crashworthy’ relative to the modern carbon composite chassis.

Specifically regarding adhesively bonded structure: Again this was born in aviation (think de Havilland and Ciba “Redux” epoxy, before then the casein and phenolic glued wood and plywood structures). The big advantage of bonding is the elimination of all the stress raisers that fasteners and their holes constitute, which primarily improves durability (fatigue resistance), but also enables some weight saving by saving fasteners and local beef-ups around fastener holes. Bonding allows a smoother distribution of load transfer in a joint. And as GeorgeTheCar pointed out, sandwich and laminated structures need adhesives for their very existence.

The difficulty with bonded joints is again in the details: The design needs to be right, parts fit needs to be excellent and everything must have the proper surface preparation and be absolutely clean. The bond doesn't like out-of-plane loading in general and 'peel' in particular - hence the odd 'chicken' rivets still often seen (soemtimes also used simply to clamp the bond line ends, and/or to clamp during cure). Add to this the need for autoclaving for the really high-performance adhesives, and the fact that the integrity of the joint is difficult to verify without expensive methods and equipment – none of this is really within the realm of the ‘backyard special’ manufacturers of yore. Proper rivet installation can be verified visually, and a bit of grime doesn’t matter too much. Actually a riveted sheet metal chassis need not be more difficult or expensive to make than a welded tube space frame – but damage always affects a larger section of the stressed skin chassis making ‘scrap’ more likely than ‘repair’. A very popular compromise that (almost!) combines the advantages of the space frame with those of the stressed skin structure used in some lesser formulae and sports racing classes was, and is, the ‘stress panelled space frame’ – i.e. a welded tubular steel ‘skeleton’ (bulkheads and longerons) with blind-riveted sheet metal skins providing the shear resistance normally provided by the diagonals of a truss structure. This type of construction invariably provides some structurally redundant material, so it will be heavier than a ‘pure’ stressed skin design, because more of the material is not located right at the surface where it does most good, but it often provides a more crashworthy design, and is also typically less prone to fatigue failure than ‘pure’ aluminium skin designs –perhaps this is why this method is still quite popular. ‘Tis also often dubbed ‘Ferrari aero style’ chassis, BTW.

Oh stop me! – I must finish this long rant…

I personally think that many of the structural performance and durability problems with sheet aluminium chassis of the 1960’s and 1970’s was due to using too weak alloys and tempers, too large unstiffened panels and long torsion boxes, inadequate rivet types, sizes and spacing, poor hole preparation, poor fit of parts and inadequate surface preparation when bonding was used, poor load distribution from load introduction points, lack of de-burring of holes, chips and swarf between mating faces, inadequate reaction of sudden changes in load path geometry – in short due to inadequate detail design and inadequate manufacturing quality. But one way of obtaining lightness is to stress the structures very highly and live with fact they don’t last long. F1 teams could live with this, few else could and aerospace certainly could not. Conventional riveted aluminium alloy sheet metal structure can be made to last for decades and thousands of hours of use. There are a lot of very old aircraft out there to prove that point. If the racer’s had the incentive they could do it also – but always at the cost of a few kilograms of added weight. That may be acceptable in aerospace, but racing is all about winning a competition, so racers just don’t want to sacrifice lightness for reliability to the same extent the aerospace guys have to – to them competition is about cost as much as anything else. That, to me, is the biggest difference between aerospace and racing.

Apologies for yet another long post…


George,

Re the benefits of liquid engineering, aka Loctite, the late, great Carroll Smith addressed this in some detail in one of his excellent books.


Allen,

Re Indy Car chassis I'll have to do some research and think about it for a while...

#59 GeorgeTheCar

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 15:36

I eagerly read the Carrol Smith articles in, IIRC, Sports Car Graphic prior to the books being published and it was one, in addition to getting pitpasses, of the reasons for my joining Loctite.

Carrol's name should be remembered for a long time for his contributions to our sport even though most fans never heard of him and the impact he had.

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#60 D-Type

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 23:01

Bonde,
Thanks for your exposition. It's refreshing to read an article by someone who understands the difference between stiffness and strength.

#61 Peter Morley

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Posted 12 March 2005 - 10:20

While there are plenty of claims to have been the first aerospace style monocoque in racing surely the true originator of the monocoque, as used in racing terms, is the Lotus 25.

The 25 chassis simply defined the racing definition of monocoque.
e.g. all other racing monocoques were based on the 25.

The next development of the racing monocoque would be the full one as used on the BRM P261, but that was really only a development of the idea introduced by Lotus (basically a bathtub with the cockpit top permanently attached).

I think that when the word monocoque is used in racing terms we are actually referring to the structure that started with the Lotus 25 - that was not a development of stressed skin space frame cars, or anything else, it was a completely new (and very clever) concept.

#62 GeorgeTheCar

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Posted 12 March 2005 - 14:45

I rather think that the reason that the Lotus 25 is seen to be the first use of the monocoque is that Lotus started a string of cars that became very successful.

That was also about the time that I became intersted in racing and so there is a logical llink.

Reading some of the history in the posts in this thread and the material referenced yeilds the conclusion that the Lotus was the first successful use of the monocoque but clearly not the first, I now have a more accurate view of the development of the monoque..

#63 Bonde

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Posted 12 March 2005 - 15:02

D-type,

'Exposition'? Oh dear- I should have paid heed to your sigline! :blush:

#64 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 09:47

Originally posted by Tim Murray
Whilst looking for something else I came across Bob Allan's interesting site on Killeen cars, which features a section titled 'Who Invented the Monocoque?


Some nice pictures of the Killeen monocoque are to be found on Brian Darby's great site...

These were taken in Western Australia by Charlie Stone, I'm sure Brian wouldn't mind us slipping them into this thread.

Posted Image

Posted Image

I can heartily recommend to anyone who has an hour to kill to go through the pics on Brian's site. Some great stuff from Australian circuits of the fifties and sixties.

By the way, note the numberplate...

#65 cosworth bdg

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 10:18

[i]Originally posted by Ray Bell



I can't help thinking that Eldred Norman would have come up with something had he still been involved... [/B]

I do not think so.........................................................

#66 2F-001

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 10:29

Originally posted by Ray Bell
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What an attractive machine - here is yet another gaping hole in my 'knowledge'.

#67 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
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Posted 02 January 2014 - 12:30

Towards the end of the 20th C. the Japanese ministry of trade did a study and came to the conclusion that approximately 50% of the world's most important inventions were British, so it's not merely anecdotal; and no, I no longer have the copy of the publication in which it was reported, probably Design or Engineering (I used to get them for free at work).