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#51 O Volante

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 09:54

I just went through the latest changes - and I can only say again, EXTREMELY GOOD WORK! Special congratulations on getting in contact with a correspondent so knowledgeable on South American matters!
PS: noted a VERY small inconsistency. In the short note on JMF you say he died in the family home at Balcarce, in the statistics the place is Buenos Aires ... Now Balcarce is in the Privincia BsAs ...

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#52 O Volante

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 11:08

Richie,
a little more on South American drivers; mostly additions, but also one contradiction ...
1) According to the Paulo Scali's "Chico Landi de ponta a ponta" the man was born on 11 July 1907 - no idea what to make out of this ...
2) Oscar Gálvez was born in Caballito, which is a townquarter of Buenos Aires close to the harbour. This info comes from a book on famous Argentinians I consulted some time ago in our local library, whose exact title I can't remember at the moment.
3) Froilán Gonzalez was born at a place called La Colonia. According to Ricardo Carozzo's book on Froilán that was the name given to a small settlement close to the road between Arrecifes and Salto - administratively probably part of Arrecifes, explaining why that place is usually given in records etc.
4) JM Bordeu was also very much a society man. I think was married twice; in any case one of his wifes was a more famous Argentine actresses of the time, Graciela Borges. Their son Roberto is also an actor. I wonder, however, about Jean-Manuel as Christian name - whenever I read about the man in Argentine sources, he's Juan-Manuel ...
5) The Schwelm Cruz story did REALLY happen as you said? I would find it rather more likely that an already given, but in public unused name - i.e. the name of the mother's family - was simply given more prominence ... But if you say ...
Hope this is not creating confusion, but helps a little further in your wonderful researches!!!

#53 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 17:37

Ah ha ha! Well, you see most of what you've mentioned is in the next update earmarked for next weekend :) (if my computer change is successful...... : )
Fangio's death was in Buenos Aires - I've sorted that one out - the reason I had Balcarce was down to numerous erronous UK newspaper obituaries & reports of the time. I also have a small explanation for his birth date. Many sources say he was born the day before but apparently Fangio is a "Shawe-Taylor" case - born around midnight & can count two different days as a birthdate - JMF said he always celebrated his birthday as the 24th even though the 23rd was the "official date" If Fangio says the 24th, 24th is good for me. :D
Bordeu : I've been alerted to my mistake already.
Landi - well, the obituary (if correct) stated the date I have on the WATN at the moment, so that will have to be looked at more
Gonzalez & Galvez, I'll do next time as well...

Schwelm, well, this story was straight from Adolfo's mouth, so one would have to believe him, but you know some of these old drivers do like a good story, so.. :lol:
Wherever possible I take the driver's words as fact...

Thanks for the double checking & additons.....

#54 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 05 May 2003 - 18:12

Incorrect Spellings or phrasing of Birthplaces/Deathplaces or Incorrect WATN info
Redman, Pease, Aston (slight adjustment of birthplace phrasing)
Bueno & Bordeu - first name changed to correct spelling
Bouillon - place spelling change
Sharp's deathplace removed due to uncertainty

New Info
At last - Vic Wilson's full death date & place (After a visit to the FRC & one death certificate purchase)
Innes Ireland's death date - now treble checked & correct
Brian Henton - Change of birthplace
Henry Banks - birthplace (That's been a long mystery too!)
Birger - change of deathdate (now correct)
Chimeri - correct deathplace
Pirocchi - deathplace (no date)
Galvez - extra bit of info for deathplace



WATN Info
Gounon - GT's,
T Parnell, Arundell - slight change to WATN info
Crespo added as it should've done last time
May - exhausts
Broeker - Stebro & Swiss info


Thanks to Gabriel & Dan again for some of the above (and O Volante for his checking posts above)

#55 wildman

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Posted 05 May 2003 - 18:36

You have the location of Mike Beuttler's death listed as Los Angeles. A couple of other sources say it was San Francisco. Not sure which is correct, but I thought you should be aware of the discrepancy.

GrandPrix.com
histomobile.com

#56 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 17:42

Originally posted by wildman
You have the location of Mike Beuttler's death listed as Los Angeles. A couple of other sources say it was San Francisco. Not sure which is correct, but I thought you should be aware of the discrepancy.

GrandPrix.com
histomobile.com


I'm well aware that other sources say San Franscisco, but as I'll say to anyone who listens, Beuttler died in Los Angeles. How do I know - his mother said so! (and more mundane, there's the documentation to back it up somewhere)

I've listed what I presume to be correct until it is confirmed otherwise. To be fair, I had San Fran down for ages, but I just think people put Beuttler, his "Lifestyle" and San Francisco together & it stuck.

#57 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 04:55

Pretty job, Richie.
That'll be an easy data basis for further research.
May I add some own notes ?

1- A handful of left typos (in the version I printed some days ago)
Bueno : Luiz Pereira, without hyphen (Pereira being his mother's surname)
CASTELLOTTI, with double L
Gonzalez : FROILAN, not Frolian
Levegh : BOUILLIN, nor Bouillon (isn't this correction yet mentioned here there and everywhere in TNF ?)
LIGUORI, not Ligouri (I'm 80% certain of my spelling)
RIBEIRO, not Riberio

2- Other spelling notes
I guess there should be a capital D at some surnames beginning by "de", when it's not a particle.
De Dryver & De Klerk (this word "de" means "the")
De Adamich, De Angelis, De Cesaris, De Fillipis, De Riu, De Tomaso (here it means "son of", the same as scot "Mc")

3- Nationalities
GACHOT is definitely a Frenchman, and the same are GUELFI and LACAZE (both residents in Morocco, but not enjoying the citizenship of).
DE TOMASO is an Argentine emigrated in Italy, his ancestor's ground.

By the way, I disagree the abbreviations you used for countries. First necause they are source of confusion (Jacky Ickx from Belarus ?) ans Secondly because they are not that that understandable by non-English readers. E.g. you use "GER" for German drivers, where Frenches should prefer "ALL", Germans "DEU", Italians "TED", etc.
I suggest you should employ the international UNO abbreviations, that everybody knows, and which are commonly used in postal addresses, at the back of the cars when travelling abroad and, last but not least, in the FIA sheets.
In both of my examples, "B" instead of "BEL" and "D" insteas of "GER".

4- Who are the added Indy drivers (such as Cagle or Wente) who were not in the original TNF thread ?
Are they rookie testers who felled to pass it, or "did not appearing" entered drivers ?

More later...

#58 fines

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 15:10

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
LIGUORI, not Ligouri (I'm 80% certain of my spelling)

Yep, it's Liguori, 100% sure!

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
Gonzalez : FROILAN, not Frolian

Or, to be even more precise, José Froilán González!

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
By the way, I disagree the abbreviations you used for countries. First necause they are source of confusion (Jacky Ickx from Belarus ?) ans Secondly because they are not that that understandable by non-English readers. E.g. you use "GER" for German drivers, where Frenches should prefer "ALL", Germans "DEU", Italians "TED", etc.
I suggest you should employ the international UNO abbreviations, that everybody knows, and which are commonly used in postal addresses, at the back of the cars when travelling abroad and, last but not least, in the FIA sheets.
In both of my examples, "B" instead of "BEL" and "D" insteas of "GER".

I agree - those official FIA abreviations are rather useful...

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
4- Who are the added Indy drivers (such as Cagle or Wente) who were not in the original TNF thread ?
Are they rookie testers who felled to pass it, or "did not appearing" entered drivers ?

Re Indy 500 non-qualifiers, I would hazard a guess that there are many missing. Most list the cars that did not start and the drivers who practiced them, but there are also a number of qualified cars that were driven in practice by different drivers. I hope I'll be able to make a thorough check some time in the not so distant future, bear with me...

#59 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 17:41

Thanks Jimmy (and Michael)
Typos I will correct for next time (every time I think I'm going to have a small rest with nothing happening - boom! drivers die, drivers make comebacks! ), probably in two weeks.
Bueno was particulary sloppy of me as Dan A alerted me to it a while back

2- Other spelling notes
I guess there should be a capital D at some surnames beginning by "de", when it's not a particle.

Just so I am clear on this.. (and don't muck it up next time)
what (or rather whom) should be in capitals for
de, da, de la, van der, van & any other prefix I've forgotten - I can see the point though, if I put da Matta under D, it should be capitals.

3- Nationalities - Frenchmen fine - should, in your opinion, de or De Tomaso be RA or RA/I? Have I got the right nationality for da Silva Ramos, additionally?


As for abbreviations, fair enough. Original database demands & the fact that that column was not the most important one (in my opinion) was the reason why - and truth be told, I did wonder whether non-English readers would read the page anyway!!
They'll be changed for next time - I have the list so that's not a problem.

4- Who are the added Indy drivers (such as Cagle or Wente) who were not in the original TNF thread ?
Are they rookie testers who felled to pass it, or "did not appearing" entered drivers ?

My understanding has been that they entered for the race & were present at the race weekend, but did not qualify for it. Similiar to Dochnal, Ecclestone & a few others in F1.

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#60 Leo

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 11:05

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
By the way, I disagree the abbreviations you used for countries. First necause they are source of confusion (Jacky Ickx from Belarus ?) ans Secondly because they are not that that understandable by non-English readers. E.g. you use "GER" for German drivers, where Frenches should prefer "ALL", Germans "DEU", Italians "TED", etc.
I suggest you should employ the international UNO abbreviations, that everybody knows, and which are commonly used in postal addresses, at the back of the cars when travelling abroad and, last but not least, in the FIA sheets.
In both of my examples, "B" instead of "BEL" and "D" insteas of "GER".


Country codes are defined in ISO 3166, which consists of three different coding systems: a two-letter code, a three-letter code and a three-digit code.

ISO 3166 Maintenance site

Full ISO 3166 List

The International Olympic Comittee has a different three-letter country code system.

And then of course there is the country code used on licence plates of cars.

#61 Rob29

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 14:40

I agree with jimmy piget on this. The FIA list is the same as the number plate list,and has always been used for motorsport. Thanks for the link to the UNO list which provides codes for countries that did not exist when the latest FIA yearbook I have was issued! (92)

#62 Allen Brown

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 21:24

Since ISO 3166 appeared, virtually every database I've seen uses this system. I'd strongly recommend it.

Allen

#63 Adam F

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 21:28

Richie,

A few updates for British drivers :-

Gerry Ashmore now living in the South of France
Robin Montgomerie-Charrtington now living in Gloucestershire
Jackie Oliver living near Bedford (not Weybridge)
Tony Trimmer living in East Kent (not far from Brands Hatch)

Is Ted Whiteaway still alive ? You don't list any WATN information.

Adam

#64 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 15 May 2003 - 06:21

Some other typos
- Pennsylvania, not Pennslyvania : Brown, Bryan, Crockett, Fonder, Herman, Holland, Larson, Light, Linden, McCoy, Nazaruk, Pratt, Sachs, Schindler, Thomson, etc (problem of Copy/Paste ?)
- George Amick : town is Vernonia, not Vernoia
- Willard Cantrell : town is Anaheim, not Annheim
- Easton : town is Sangamon, not Sanyamon
- Fonder : I think that town is Hatfield, not Hartfield
- Pratt : town is Portage, not Porthage
- Joe SOSTILIO, not Sostilo

Nationality :
Da Silva Ramos : the best should be BR + F, as he enjoys both citizenships

Capital letters
Not to be used (as you did) to French-tongue names (de Changy, de Terra, de Tornaco), to Portuguese & Spanish names (de Cabral, de La Rosa, de Portago, de Villota), to other nobility names (de Graffenried)

Alphabetic order
PEREZ SALA should be found at letter P (not S) : Pérez is his father's name and Sala his mother's

Suggestion
Adding some family links with non-F1 drivers. Hence :
Billy De Vore : son of pre-war indy star Earl De Vore
Norm Houser : son of pre-war indy starter Thane Houser
Hal Robson : brother of 1946 Indy winner George Robson
Eddie Russo : son of pre-war indy starter Joe Russo and hence nephew of Paul Russo
Bill Vukovich : father and grand-father of indy/CART drivers
And also Foyt, Ruttman, etc.

Query
SHERMAN : Ray or Roy (as in the Phil Harms files) ?

W A T N
CHITWOOD : it seems to appear that his pretended Indian ascent was a hoax.

More later...

#65 fines

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Posted 15 May 2003 - 15:14

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
Query
SHERMAN : Ray or Roy (as in the Phil Harms files) ?

Roy, definitely!

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
W A T N
CHITWOOD : it seems to appear that his pretended Indian ascent was a hoax.

Very probably!

#66 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 15 May 2003 - 20:45

Thanks for the info guys, I am very short on time this week, so I will look at this thread and everything properly this weekend - I will just answer one query from Adam - Ted Whiteaway was alive up to December 2001. I searched the FRC all over for every Whiteaway going as far back as 1983 & I don't think we would wait to hear 20 years for a British death. But after 2001, I don't know, likewise Campbell-Jones of those in Britain.

#67 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 06:29

These men I didn't had yet in my own charts and they did not appear in Phil Harms's 500 files.
What were their practice car numbers at Indy ?

1950 : Billy EARL, Ben ZUKOR
1951 : Dick PAGE, Bill RANDALL (& 1958), Roscoe ROMM, Roy SHERMAN
1952 : Perry GRIMM
1953 : Bill DARTER, Jim MAYES, Harry STOCKMAN, Ebe YODER
1954 : Wally CAMPBELL
1955 : —
1956 : Buddy CAGLE
1957 : —
1958 : Tom PISTONE
1959 : Tony HULMAN, Ed SHAEFER
1960 : Leon CLUM, Tommy COPP, Bruce JACOBI, A-J SHEPHERD

Three questions for Richie

Bobby BALL. He crashed the 4th of January at Ascot-Gardena, but died the 27th of February, my own notes mentioning that it was at Phoenix, Az.
I guess it's likely that he was transferred from California onto his hometown. Do you confirm that he stayed at Gardena up to his death ?

Gene FORCE. There is a contradiction between the location column and the WATN one. Did he die in Indiana or in Michigan ?

Eddie SACHS. My own notes mention that he was born at Bethlehem, Pa. Are they wrong ?

Two amendments

Jess ROSE. Was known as "Ebb" Rose.

Merlyn "Doc" SHANEBROOK. Born South Bend, In, 15 February 1922. Died Livingston, Il, October 1979.

More later...

#68 Jim Thurman

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 08:57

I've been trying to help Richie with the info, but between all my other projects and a six week bout of illness, I haven't had much of a chance...so, if it's ok and with Richie busy, I'll answer what I can.

I have no idea about Bobby Ball. That should be 4th of January at Carrell Speedway in Gardena (Carrell closed before Ascot opened, but the two tracks were just two or so miles apart). I would have thought it much less likely to have transferred someone in his state in that era.

Gene Force died of a heart attack while attending a race at Michigan International Speedway.

Jesse "Ebb" Rose. This one (like Vernonia, Oregon and Joe Sostilio), I've pointed out to Richie.

And it is Hatfield, Pennsylvania.

Thanks for the additions and corrections Jimmy.

And, let me echo fines...Roy Sherman.


Jim Thurman

#69 fines

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 12:54

Re Bobby Ball, remember the accident was Jan 4 1953 (yes, Carrell Speedway!), and he died Feb 27 1954; he lingered in a coma for close to 14 months! My notes also say he died in Phoenix, AZ (a nursing home?).

Re Indy drivers: a quick and dirty check of my notes reveals:

1956 Buddy Cagle, entered in #81 Central Excavating Special (presumably the second Agajanian Kuzma dirt chassis), presumably did not appear

1958 Tom Pistone, entered in #66 Federal Engineering Special (the '57 Russ Snowberger roadster), presumably did not appear

#70 fines

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 13:07

1959 Tony Hulman, one demonstration lap on May 1 in his daughter's car, the HOW Special (a new Kuzma roadster), that was not entered at the Speedway, thus technically he does not belong on the list!

1958 (not '59) Ed "Dutch" Schaefer, entered in #61 Bryant Heating & Cooling Special (Kurtis 500G2 chassis 'G2-06'), presumably did not appear.

#71 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 14:38

Fines, I beleft that Bobby Ball was in the army for military service all 1953...
It was shamely the same as Bruce Jacobi...

#72 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 18:10

Time today is at a slight premium, so I will look at these very good questions & try to work out some of the information/sources in full detail tomorrow when I have all day free, however, I'll try to answer what I can
I am taking note of all these details, so I do apologise if people have informed me in the past & for one reason or another I didn't add it on - I'm far from perfect when keeping notes! :blush:
Yes, I am aware it is Roy Sherman - but sometimes tiny little things like this miss my attention until someone points them out - apologies
I've never seen Phil Harm's files so I can't comment on them - I recieved a list from two people (frank-FEV) was one, I think, but it might have been Michael (Fines) & someone else who is not a TNF'r.
These names came up, but only their names & dates where known. As I have no interest in the cars, Indy or F1, I didn't ask for cars or practice numbers so I can't help there I'm afraid. The people I have listed featured in both lists & as these people are well trusted sources, especially on an area not so well publicised, I've gone with them - I didn't make the original list.

Ball might be a misinterpration by me - he did indeed die of his injuries from the crash but I took this to be soon afterwards. IIRC:(
Sachs, IIRC, was relatively new information - I will try & find out where that came from if I can - I think, but am far from sure, that on obtaining information about another Allentown resident, the source said "same town as Eddie Sachs" - I will check this again this weekend.

PS thanks for Shanebrook. I had found the Merlyn Shanebrook mentioned & had an inkling it could be him, but thanks for confirming that.

Re these Indy non-entrants, I am interested in these & if they don't belong they will go from the list - you may notice I don't include Ricardo Londono-Bridge or Jorge de Bagration. So as I have noted with Hulman, they will go if they don't belong there - some are so "iffy" I do wonder about them but I guess, until proved otherwise, they stay on.
That's all I can spare now - if I find out anything directly related to those questions, I will go into it tomorrow - I have a lot of info to take down that's for sure and as I said before, I do appreciate people having the time to check through this, especially for the Indy drivers. :up:

#73 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 23:46

Jimmy, this is where I got Allentown from for Sachs:
http://www.findagrav...ge=gr&GRid=3689

I'm not the only one who has Allentown either, so you might be wrong on that. See what you think.

Just to clear up something from an earlier post:
you said not to use capital letters for French, Portguese & Spanish names and said that I had done so -- did you mean to say I should use capital letters & that I had not done so? The only reason I ask again is that I have put ALL da & de's lower case as far as I can see??

Everything else mentioned will be updated for next time - I just want to make sure I get these da de van der's right!

#74 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 17 May 2003 - 05:31

Richie
You are right using lower case "d" for "de" in French, Portuguese & Spanish names, that's what I meant.

Thanks for Eddie Sachs information, I'll correct my own notes. "Fin a Grave" site is a great one !

There are 5 other Indy drivers whose information on I want to talk about, for contradiction with my own notes.
Sorry about these notes, but I'm afraid I cannot trace each of their sources (haven't kept the appropriate references) and hence these ones remain dubious

Len DUNCAN. My notes read he died in Bronx, NY. Yours read it was at Lansdale, Pa (which was his last residence mentioned in the SS site).

Milt FANKHOUSER. I have him born at Louisville, Ky, August 1916 & perhaps still alive.

Alvin "Cotton" FARMER. The SSDI has an Alvin Farmer, born 6 April 1930 & died 29 May 2000 at Madison Heights, Va. An homonymous person ?

Ottis STINE. The SSDI mentioned two so-called people. You have chosen the Ottis E. Why not the Ottis H. (6 Feb 1904, 29 Jul 88) ?

Spider WEBB. SSDI gives May 1990 as death date, not 29 January 1990.
By the way, was he related to pre-war indy driver Lou Webb ?

#75 fines

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Posted 17 May 2003 - 07:55

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
Spider WEBB. SSDI gives May 1990 as death date, not 29 January 1990.
By the way, was he related to pre-war indy driver Lou Webb ?

Probably not, but I am not sure. Jim?

#76 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 17 May 2003 - 09:25

Ah thanks Jimmy for making that clear.
Okay, the five guys.
(by the way, SSDI has now gone subscribtion only, so it looks like I am going to have to fork out for all the info, but it is probably worth it- it also means I can't check it right now)

DUNCAN: I will be honest, I don't know for sure. I think i tend to lean towards SSDI when there is nothing else at hand. Yours could be (and probably is) perfectly right, but I think you need to work out where you might have got that from before I change it

FANKHOUSER: That's more than I have - I've drawn a total blank

FARMER: That Farmer is NOT the Cotton Farmer. I believed that & put it down but that was misinformaton. The real Cotton Farmer (or our one), is alive & living in Forth Worth, Texas. I wrote to him, but recieved no reply. He is about 80-81 years of age.

STINE: I chose Ottis E because someone sent me a copy of a posting from a motorsports forum or something similiar with the obituary and the details. (I can't find the link for it, otherwise I'd reproduce it here) The obituary mentioned that Ottis had been "killed off" before(!) but OES is definitely our man

WEBB: That's the first I knew of this - I am sure it is the 29th Jan as everywhere has it but I do see what you mean with the SSDI - I can only think that May was when they found out?? - I can't explain that one - I can see where you're coming from but I am sure it is the 29th Jan 1990.

#77 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 17:51

Right, the latest (and biggest) update is now up, here's what is now up on the site:

Incorrect Spellings or phrasing of Birthplaces/Deathplaces or Incorrect WATN info
As suggested before in this thread - Ribeiro, Liguori, "Levegh", JF Gonzalez, Castellotti, Bueno & Sostilio's names all correctly changed
Schaefer's name & race date changed
Force & Ebb Rose details noted
All the Pennsylvania changed plus the spellings already mentioned for G Amick, W Cantrell, Easton, Pratt
Roy Sherman now has his name correct - Chitwood's Indian thing is gone

New Info
Dochnal - birthplace (There's more but I must wait as I will spoil a surprise!)
Earl Motter birth & deathplaces
Eliseo Salazar b. 1955 (so says ES) - Bill Mackey's birthdate is likewise changed to the 15th due to family confirmation.
Bobby Ball's death details
Fankhouser - birth
Shanebrook - birth & Death details
Goethals & de Tomaso (name & nationality change while I'm at it) have, as you will all know, passed away.

The SSDI may be fee only now, but it's paying it's way to start off with - Motter's details are above - also new from the deeper search are the following:
Joel Thorne - birthplace, deathplace & reason for death
Yoder - full birth details & most death details found.
G Lynch - birthplace
Clemons - full death date & place
Clum birthplace & death state
Copp - birth state
M Burke - year of birth


WATN Info
Cagle - teaching & still playing with fast things!
Guglemin & Marques in Megane series
Gonzalez JF - adviser
I Scheckter - golf & a little more business background than before
Dumfries - back in racing (although I must add that since I did the update - Dumfries IS NOT doing Le Mans but will probably do a one-off race somewhere this year - there are a few other WATN's that didn't quite make it that will be next time.)
Yoong - lost cart drive
Zanardi & Andretti - retirement
Johnson death details
Update/refreshing of the following British drivers & their whereabouts now:
Acheson, Ashmore, Allison, Donnelly, Craft, Galica, Hart, D Hill, Hobbs, Surtees, Piper, Montgomerie-Charrington, Oliver, Trimmers, South, McCarthy
Added the family links to some drivers like Devore, Robson, Russo, Vukovich (but to be honest, I might not do any more from now on as it isn't really WATN info, if you see what I mean)


In addition
Nationalities changed to FIA list - any positive or negative feedback will be welcomed. Gachot, Lacaze & Guelfi were all changed to France.
Numerous drivers have had "cleaning" - spelling mistakes in WATN mostly, which haven't been put on the "updated when" list, but in some cases, like Lauda, I have updated it (WATN), without actually adding anything.
All current drivers GP total correct up to (but not including) Monaco GP
Tony Hulman taken out (as stated earlier in thread)
Capital letters changed as mentioned before, likewise Luis Perez Sala is now in P.



Thanks to: Jim Thurman, Jamie, Enoch & Stephen at F1 Rejects, Dan Axlesson, David Holland, Jimmy Piget, Barry Lake, Michael Ferner, Trackforum, Adam Ferrington, Danny Marting, Don Capps & Dave T for the various info in this update.


I think that's everything included! I expect more of the Indy obscurities to be solved soon - one check I have done is on all the living American drivers - up to the end of March, ALL OF THEM are still alive which, considering a bad year for motorsport in some ways, is a small bonus.

#78 Jim Thurman

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 21:56

Sorry for the delay in getting to this...

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
Spider WEBB. SSDI gives May 1990 as death date, not 29 January 1990.
By the way, was he related to pre-war indy driver Lou Webb ?


Originally posted by fines

Probably not, but I am not sure. Jim?


Jimmy, Michael (and Richie)...

As far as I'm aware I don't believe there was any relation, but also I am not sure. I don't have much info on Lou Webb. Where was Lou from?

Richie,

Hmmm, after finally being able to tackle this, I agree with Jimmy. All indications are the following is the one we're looking for...

TRAVIS L WEBB 08 Oct 1910 May 1990 (Mcminnville, Yamhill, OR)

SSDI also indicates card was issued in California and I know "Spider" raced out of Maywood, California (or was it the neighboring town of Bell?).

Also, the regional racing paper mentioned "Spider" Webb's passing and I recall that he was living in Oregon at the time.

I simply have not had the time (or health) to dig through the piles of old racing papers and confirm these listings. It would have helped with info on several (most notably Joe Giba) as I recall mention of their passings.

And not that it helps a whole heck of a lot, but I'm quite sure that Jesse "Ebb" Rose's middle initial is H.


Jim Thurman

#79 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 20:58

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
Sorry for the delay in getting to this...
Hmmm, after finally being able to tackle this, I agree with Jimmy. All indications are the following is the one we're looking for...

TRAVIS L WEBB 08 Oct 1910 May 1990 (Mcminnville, Yamhill, OR)


Which means I've had the right Travis Webb all along because..... SSDI have made a mistake!! :eek:


I had a look in the Oregon death records & our Travis Webb, birthdate, place, middle name (leon) all match - the date of death...

27th January 1990, Mcminnville.

Goodness knows why it says May - but the Oregon info is a copy of the entry of death, or whatever name you wish to call it, so it's pretty cast iron.

So, that clears that one up. In addition, All US drivers with a letter "W" - there details are all 100& spot on - tomorrow or Sunday - the V's!!

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#80 indy500autographs

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 00:56

New information from the former newtown27, now indy500autographs.




The thread got me thinking, and I have finally found out about Milt
Fankhauser.

First, the reason I couldn't find him before, is that his name is
misspelled in most of the books, it's actually spelled Fankhauser
not Fankhouser.

That was part of the problem finding him.

Fankhauser was born on 10/29/15 and died in Ohio in February of
1970. He raced in the 500 once, and his son, Merrell Fankhauser is
regarded as a "surf-rock" legend, according to his
website "www.merrellfankhauser.com".

#81 Chico Landi

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 10:54

Wonderful job!!! :up:

Just a minor correction. You wrote about PP Diniz:
"Now retired as a driver, he was involved in Prost's management for a while. Now involved with his family supermarket firm & runs a team in Brazilian Formula Renault. "

We'll actually he runs no team in BR F-Renault, but runs the whole series, being the head chief of the championship and working directly to Renault.

Once again, thanks for such a valuable document!

#82 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 18:08

Thanks both of you for the information :up:

Newtown/Indy - I did suspect that the name may be unusual when not many Fankhousers came up but lots of Fankhausers did - I just didn't make the connection, so many thanks - by the way, a long time back on trackforum you said you had some info on Jesse Rose (Ebb)? I think I PM'd you on that, but as I was a way at the time on holiday, I may've forgotten......

#83 Fcf

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 05:00

Informations about brazilian's former F1 driver Fritz D'Orey:


He's still working, but now with computers, and your favorite plataform is Mac.
He's living in Rio de Janeiro.

Thanks.

#84 Ric Bol

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 14:02

Excellent job, in my favorites now!!!

A aditional information about brazilians Chico Serra and Ingo Hoffman, they still driver in the Brazilian Stock Cars, ..... and win!!!

#85 humphries

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 15:39

Chico, Ric Bol, Fcf

Can you contact Fritz? Some of us are very keen to know the origins of the Ferrari-Chevrolets he and other Brazilians used between 1956-1960. Unless someone who was actually there can throw some light on their origins they are going to remain the mysteries they are now.

Please try to contact him.

John

#86 O Volante

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 16:01

Yes, please ...
I can only second such a request, and please do not forget to ask also for the Maseratis and Alfa Romeos ...

#87 Ric Bol

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 22:33

Sorry friends, but I'm living in Guayaquil/Ecuador now, maybe later!!! :wave:

#88 Ric Bol

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 16:40

Hi again,

I found this interview with Fritz D'Orey at Forix site, but it's in portuguese :eek:
Maybe inside the english forix you could find the english version.

Saludos
Ric

_________________
Em maio de 2002, o ex-piloto Fritz d'Orey conversou com a equipe do FORIX em sua belíssima cobertura no Rio de Janeiro, de frente para o mar, em Copacabana. Durante uma hora e meia, d'Orey lembrou momentos marcantes de sua curta carreira - período em que teve a oportunidade de disputar três provas na Fórmula-1 - e também dos grandes pilotos dos anos 50 e dos muitos amigos que fez naquela época.

Afastado das corridas desde um terrível acidente nas 24 Horas de Le Mans, em 1960, d'Orey nutre hoje outra paixão além do automobilismo: os computadores. Há mais de vinte anos, tornou-se um fã orgulhoso da Apple, possuindo uma invejável coleção de computadores da marca mundialmente famosa.

Nesta entrevista exclusiva, d'Orey diz que o automobilismo que conhecemos hoje em nada se parece com a época vivida por ele, quando as corridas eram disputadas apenas pelo prazer de correr e o dinheiro era apenas uma conseqüência disso. "Naquele tempo, os pilotos eram seres humanos e os carros eram vistos de perto pelas pessoas. Não é como acontece hoje".

FORIX - Como surgiu seu interesse pelo automobilismo?


Sempre gostei muito de automóveis, desde criança. E nessa época eu ia sempre a Interlagos, aos sábados. Todo mundo ia para lá naquele tempo. A pista era aberta e todo mundo levava seus carros de passeio. Aos 17 anos, fiz minha primeira corrida, com um Jaguar XK. Mas minha vida de piloto durou apenas cinco anos, pois aos 22 sofri um grande acidente, que acabou me tirando das pistas.

FORIX - Tua família te apoiava naquela época?


De jeito nenhum, porque antigamente era um perigo mortal. Morria alguém todo fim-de-semana em Interlagos, e, claro, não havia nenhuma segurança, nada de guard-rails.

FORIX - O que movia vocês então era pura paixão pelo esporte...


Sim, porque correr de automóvel era e ainda é uma sensação muito gostosa. Nem é a competição em si, mas o prazer de acelerar um carro de corridas.

FORIX - O que era correr pela Ferrari naquela época, sendo você tão jovem em relação aos demais? E como ocorreu sua contratação pela equipe?


Na Fórmula-1, eu corri pela Maserati, a convite do Fangio. Foi ele quem me levou para correr na Europa, pela Scuderia Centro Sud. A BP (British Petrolium) estava patrocinando e o Fangio ia levar um brasileiro, um uruguaio e um argentino para lá. O uruguaio era o Asdrubal Fontes Bayardo, mas não me recordo do nome do argentino. Mas dos três, o único que correu na Formula-1 fui eu. Os outros ficaram só nos testes.

Eu estava acostumado a correr com uma Ferrari 51, a mesma que o Chico Landi ganhou do presidente Getúlio Vargas para correr. Disputei algumas provas com ela e, depois disso, a Ferrari me chamou para assinar um contrato. Eu já tinha disputado os GPs da França, da Inglaterra e dos EUA antes disso, e depois de ter assinado o contrato, disputei também as 12 Horas de Sebring e as 24 Horas de Le Mans, onde tive o desastre que acabou com a minha carreira.

FORIX - Em relação às contratações, era muito diferente do que ocorre hoje? Como funcionava? A contratação era para uma temporada inteira ou somente algumas provas, dependendo do piloto?


Naquela época, ninguém ganhava muito dinheiro. Havia corridas em todos os lugares, de todas as categorias, e os pilotos não ganhavam salário das fábricas e sim prêmios de largada. Os organizadores davam uma determinada quantia de dinheiro, dependendo do prestígio do piloto, e a gente vivia com isso, que só dava para pagar o hotel, a alimentação e as viagens.

FORIX - Mas e os campeões?


Mesmo um campeão, não ganhava tanto como agora. Era só o prazer de correr que nos levava a continuar nessa vida. Dava para se sustentar, sem precisar passar fome. Naquele tempo, os pilotos eram apenas seres humanos, os carros eram vistos de perto pelas pessoas. Não é como acontece hoje. A liberdade que tínhamos antes era total.

FORIX - Já havia assédio dos fãs naquela época, mesmo vocês não sendo milionários como os pilotos de hoje?


Ah, tinha. Antigamente nós éramos vistos heróis. Hoje, os pilotos são todos muito protegidos, com guarda-costas, essas coisas. Muita coisa mudou de lá para cá, mas já naquela época os pilotos tinham muitos fãs atrás deles.

FORIX - E como era o perfil do chefe de equipe nos anos 50?


Não era uma coisa profissional como conhecemos hoje. Ele era apenas o dono dos carros e nunca dava ordens para um piloto andar mais rápido do que o companheiro de equipe. Cada um andava o mais depressa que podia, e se cometesse algum erro, corria o risco de não disputar a corrida seguinte.

Para se ter uma idéia de como as coisas eram feitas, o chefe da equipe chegava e dizia a um piloto: "Vai haver um Grande Prêmio em tal lugar. Você quer ir lá e correr para mim?" E então a gente perguntava de quanto era o prêmio de largada. Dependendo da grana, a gente ia lá disputar e recebia um adiantamento para bancar as despesas da viagem. Não havia contrato, era tudo um acordo de amigos.

FORIX - Dos pilotos que você conheceu quando correu na Europa, quem era o mais antipático e quem era o mais amigo?


Meu maior amigo era o Wolfgang von Trips, com quem eu morava junto, em Modena, na Itália. E infelizmente ele morreu em 61, naquele acidente em Monza, onde também morreram alguns torcedores. Os mais antipáticos, na minha opinião, eram os ingleses. O Stirling Moss, por exemplo, era uma pessoa muito desagradável, convencido, que se achava o máximo. Já os italianos eram extremamente simpáticos. O Luigi Musso era um deles. Morreu em 58, mas eu cheguei a conhecê-lo; o Eugenio Castellotti também. Hoje, na Fórmula-1 atual, infelizmente os pilotos mal se falam.

FORIX - Havia brigas internas entre dois pilotos de uma mesma equipe, como acontece agora?


De forma alguma. Primeiro, porque todo mundo era mais amigo um do outro. E a coisa era tão perigosa que todos se ajudavam e ninguém ousava se arriscar ao extremo, porque sabia que se fizesse isso, corria o risco de morrer e ainda levar alguém junto. Nos bastidores, nunca vi uma briga, porque a maior parte deles eram verdadeiros gentlemen, pessoas muito agradáveis e extremamente gentis. Isso porque muitos deles vinham de famílias bem-educadas, representavam a elite européia, com raríssimas exceções.

FORIX - No Brasil, houve muita repercussão na imprensa pelo fato de você ter sido um jovem correndo no meio de tantas feras do automobilismo, mais velhas que você e mais experientes, como Ciro Cayres e Camilo Christófaro?


Sem dúvida. A coisa chegou a tal ponto que houve uma época em que eu saía em capas de jornais o tempo todo.

FORIX - Por causa disso, chegou a ser alimentada algum tipo de rivalidade entre você e algum desses pilotos, como a que vimos, por exemplo, entre Senna e Piquet nos anos 80?


Não, não havia. E sobre essa questão entre o Senna e Piquet, a coisa toda estava no caráter de cada um deles. O Piquet era um cara super invejoso e o Senna já pertencia a uma época mais moderna, movida a milhões e milhões de dólares. E o Piquet estava atento a isso. Quando o Senna surgiu, isso apagou um pouco o brilho dele.

Na minha época, as dificuldades faziam com que fosse mais difícil acontecer esse tipo de coisa. Os carros não eram iguais, a mecânica era bem diferenciada e você corria cada fim-de-semana com carros diferentes, em categorias diferentes. Era tudo muito difícil de dirigir, porque a direção era muito pesada. Eu pilotei um Fórmula-1 em 1972 e senti uma diferença enorme, com tudo macio.

FORIX - E que carro foi esse?


Foi a Lotus 72, do Emerson Fittipaldi.

FORIX - E seu acidente em Le Mans, em 1960? Como aconteceu?


Foi no meio da reta. Meu carro saiu da pista e bateu numa árvore, completamente de lado. O carro partiu-se ao meio e eu fiquei jogado no meio da pista. Por conta disso, passei oito meses internado num hospital e minha carreira acabou aí.

FORIX - E o que você fez quando deixou o hospital?


Voltei para o Brasil e vim trabalhar nas empresas do meu pai, uma construtora e uma revendedora de automóveis. Fiquei trabalhando nisso até ele morrer, eu fechar as empresas e me aposentar.

FORIX - Você nunca mais teve contato com o automobilismo depois disso?


Eu me afastei totalmente das corridas após o acidente e nunca mais fui a um circuito. Passei a assistir as corridas somente pela TV.

FORIX - Quais os pilotos que você mais admirou durante essa época e como você os compara com os de hoje?


Admirei muito o Emerson Fittipaldi, o primeiro grande piloto brasileiro, o precursor de tudo. Ele foi o máximo para mim. Costumo dizer que automobilismo é uma serie de coincidências. Veja o exemplo do Barrichello, que anda muito, mas nunca teve a sorte de estar na hora certa, no lugar certo, ter o melhor carro, exatamente o que aconteceu com o Senna. E eu fico tentando descobrir se o Senna andava mais que o Barrichello. Eu acho que não. Para mim, isso tudo está relacionado às coincidências, enquanto as pessoas chamam de sorte.

FORIX - Pista mais desafiadora e melhor carro?


Sem dúvida alguma, Nürburgring, porque essa era uma pista ameaçadora mesmo. Para correr numa pista daquelas, com aqueles carros, com pneus fininhos e tão pouca estabilidade, você tinha que ser, literalmente, muito macho. Quanto ao carro, o melhor que conduzi, na minha opinião, foi uma Ferrari, em treinos particulares.

#89 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 17:53

So, what ended up being suprisingly (to me) the largest update of them all is now up:-
There is some really unique information here this month which was very exciting to find!!

So:



Incorrect Spellings or phrasing of Names/Birthplaces/Deathplaces or Incorrect WATN info
R-Prichard (slight amendment of deathplace)
Ulmen, Stommelen, Zapico, Prinoth - changes of respectively: birthdate, birthdate, birthdate, deathdate due to mistakes by myself or when copying mistaken info - now on correct dates
Mansell - upon rather than on for birthplace
Montgomerie-Charrington - first name changed
Milhoux - slight addition to birthplace details

New Info
Light - birthplace
Knepper - full birth & death details
Webb - amended death details
Depailler - death place
John James - died :cry:
Milt Fankhauser - FULL details, further from those listed by Indy500autographs earlier on
Gunther Seiffert - birthdate - the holy grail of birthdates!
Salay - Birthplace
Settember - change of birthplace
Stockman - virtually full birth & death details
Stephens - birthdate
Sherman - birthplace
Bonetto - new birthplace
Eisele (Bud Rose) - birth & deathplaces
Rodeghier - correct spelling of name & birthplace
J Roberts - full death & birth details & a little more info
JF Gonzalez & OA Galvez - birthplace info
Cortner - slight birthdate change
Copp - birthplace
P Walker - birthplace
Schneider - birthplace change
Mitter - current birthplace name added
Francia - new birthdate from GF's site (Sorry David H it was 1947! :blush: )
Norm Hall change of birthdate & deathplace found
Goacher - almost full birth & death details
Alvin Farmer - full birth details
Cagle - birthdate
Hellings - deathplace
Red Hamilton - deathplace


WATN Info
Dumfries - no Le Mans but racing possible
Arnoux - kart owner
Earl - still involved in US racing
Vonlanthen - Exhibionist
Diniz - F Renault head
Mazzacane/Enge (and a few others (about 6-8 in total, like Moreno, Takahashi) refreshing info
Kessler - TV Director!
Prost - ice racing
de Dryver - GT's
Kuwashima - :eek: Back in motorsport after disappearing completely - in Japan GT's
Gabbiani - Le Mans
Nicholson - engines
Papis - CART
Facetti - still preparing cars
Francia - Instructor
d'Orey - computers
Donnelly - still racing
Fushida - back in Japan
Barbazza - go karts
Binder - now works in a sawmill!

In addition
All current drivers GP totals updated by 2 (bar Button, of course who only raced 1)
5/6 spelling mistakes corrected in WATN, likewise Ludwig Fischer's GP total was wrong

Thanks to:
Indy500Autographs, Jim Thurman, FcF, Ric Bol, David Holland, Dan Axelsson, O Volante (sorry for not including the Gonzalez & Galvez info before - I lost the notes :o ), Track Forum, Alessandro Silva, Chico Landi and John James' daughter Ms. Kay Bamford for all the information/contributions...


Phew... now I'm ready for holiday!!

#90 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 19:58

Incorrect Spellings or phrasing of Names/Birthplaces/Deathplaces or Incorrect WATN info
Roscoe Romm should be Roscoe RANN

New Info
Goethals deathplace
Gino Bianco - new & correct deathdate & place
Kiesa - added
Roscoe Rann full birthplace & deathplace & dates
Cy Marshall - part of birthplace
J (E) Rose - full birthdate & place
B Taylor - part birthdate

WATN Info
Davidson - ALMS & Jaguar
Salo - CART
Lavaggi - team owner
A Jones - financial woes
Yoong - Bathurst
N Hall - injury & team ownership
Modena - Bridgestone links
Prost - advising
Brack - historic visits
Deletraz - retirement
Pizzonia/Wilson/Kiesa - Jag & Minardi rummage
Burti - Spa
Fushida - Team director of F3 team

In Addition:
The usual spelling etc. checks & updates of current drivers
The following drivers have been removed as there were not, 100%, part of the Indy 500 qualifying participations (ie on track)
Bruce Jacobi, Mike Burch, Peter Hahn, Tommy Copp, Bill DOSTER (not Darter), Dick Page, Tom Pistone, Bill Randall, Ed Schaefer, Ebe Yoder, Ben Zukor:-
Zukor & Schaefer (who had on eye) failed medicals, Yoder (a quaker) saw his boss get in trouble with the AAA & quit racing on the spot & most of the others were refused due to lack of experience or just didn't make it onto the track. Randall should be 1961 & not 1951, so, like Romm, that's a mistake that's gained a bit of snowballing over the years..

In addition, Donald told me that only Bill Taylor, Billy Earl & Ebb Rose are living from the list I asked him about. I presume this means that Drollinger, Duncan, K Eaton, Reese, Mayes, Sherman, Leighton, B Boyd & Burke are dead (Well, Sherman, Burke, Leighton & Mayes definitely are) but as of yet I have no details at all.....


Thanks to:
Ensign14, Danny M, Maldwyn, Sergio Sultani & Donald Davidson


FORTHCOMING ATTRACTIONS: :)
Now rather than relaxing :eek: :D or visiting WH Smiths to read Autosport every week as my sum total of work at the moment on WATN ;) I am actually busy on not one, but two possible new additions to the site!!!
The first will be F3000 (Not F2.. yet) and the second, if all goes well time-wise & all, will be the Indy 500 drivers from start to present - but the latter will have to start off being post-war....
Keep your eyes peeled & for both of the two categories, any help will be most gratefully appreciated!

#91 Racer.Demon

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 19:41

In case there is still some doubt about where and when Carel de Beaufort died, I now have the proof to end all discussion.

Several resources still quote August 1 or 3, and mention Düsseldorf or Koblenz. This is all wrong. Through various contemporary Dutch news clippings I was already quite sure about August 2, Cologne.

But now I have been sent the original memorial card issued by the family. (I don't know the correct term for this in English, but it's something of a Roman Catholic thing called "bidprent" in Dutch - literally it's "prayer picture". Does anyone know how to translate this?)

I've made an update to my Beaufort article at 8W where there's an update to the second paragraph following the lead. Links to the above memorial card are found there.

#92 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 17 October 2003 - 22:47

There is an update coming up very soon but I'd thought I'd post one passing that may be too late to make it in the update:

Laurence "Captain Bud" Sennett died on the 25th July 2003, in Keauhou Mauka, Hawaii. He was 91 & had been ill for some time. He was buried at sea. :cry:

I've also seen from what looks like a gneually reliable source that Tony Settember is referred to as the "late" Tony Settember. I've e-mailed the source but does anyone know anything about Tony passing away??

#93 Jim Thurman

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Posted 17 October 2003 - 23:38

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
There is an update coming up very soon but I'd thought I'd post one passing that may be too late to make it in the update:

Laurence "Captain Bud" Sennett died on the 25th July 2003, in Keauhou Mauka, Hawaii. He was 91 & had been ill for some time. He was buried at sea. :cry:

I've also seen from what looks like a gneually reliable source that Tony Settember is referred to as the "late" Tony Settember. I've e-mailed the source but does anyone know anything about Tony passing away??


Richie,

For some reason, I've run across people who felt Tony Settember died in a racing crash years ago. It's to the point that I feel there must have been an error similar to what happened with Bruce Kessler.

As far as recently, I have no idea...

Sorry to hear about Bud Sennett.


Jim Thurman

#94 Paul Taylor

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Posted 17 October 2003 - 23:57

May I ask whatever happened to the interview / images of Frank J Dochnal? :)

#95 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 18 October 2003 - 09:18

Jim, that's a possible explanation that crossed my mind - it was only because this was written quite recently that made me wonder. I will know for sure the next time that ancestry SSDI link you gave me updates, which is why I didn't know Sennett's earlier.
Paul, I'm not sure where the FJD thing is at the moment. It's out of my hands & it seems FJD holds the cards. Perhaps if you PM Kuwashima he'll let you know the latest - my hands are kinda tied. :

#96 rUfUsDcLuFuS

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Posted 18 October 2003 - 09:48

You've gotta add Stan Fox to this list ! Stan suffered the most horrific Indy 500 accident with Eddie Cheever and survived only do die in a road car accident in Australia a few years ago !
Enjoyed your page,

rUfUs

#97 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 18 October 2003 - 18:50

rUfUsDcLuFuS, I'm hoping to do a post-war Indy 500 drivers list to go with F1 & the soon to come F3000 next year, if things go well. Stan would be included on that. The only Indy 500 drivers there now are those who raced & non-qualified during the times the race counted for the World Championship, even if it seems extremely tenous to have someone like Johnny Roberts, a NASCAR great, alongside Keke Rosberg - but if they were at the Indy 500 then, then they're in.
IF I have time & all goes well then in 2005, I may go for pre-war Indy 500, but seeing as they're almost all dead (if not all), then I have to consider from a WATN point of view if I'm actually adding anything - but lets see how it goes.. :)

#98 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 19 October 2003 - 19:57

Incorrect Spellings or phrasing of Names/Birthplaces/Deathplaces or Incorrect WATN info
De Beaufort's birthyear is back to normal

New Info
Baumgartner added
Leclere correct birthdate

WATN Info
Lammers - GT success
Sutton - Calendars & books
de Cesaris - investing
Leclere - driving school & garage
Neve - 90's involvement
Salo & Papis - CART
McRae & J Boyd - ill health :(
Sospiri & A Suzuki - team management
D Hill - managerial role
Irvine - retired from racing
Gerhard Berger - left BMW
Gene - Williams race at Monza & no Dallara Nissan - also Pizzonia, Sato, Massa & all the other current F1 here's & there's included - McNish, Pizzonia etc.
Barbazza - fishing in Cuba!
Oakes - still alive, still active & a bit more detail post Indy
Sutcliffe - nurseryman
Ashley - slight addition to sidecars


In Addition:
The usual spelling etc. checks & updates of current drivers - which ends up being the main bulk of this update really, the past drivers kept themselves VERY quiet, mostly :)
And.. you may spot something slightly different about the site ;) ;) ;)

Thanks to:
Philippe7, Michael (Fines), Allen Brown (for McRae info), Adam F

#99 theunions

theunions
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Posted 19 October 2003 - 20:43

Richie: on the F3000 side of the list...where's Phil Giebler (who's testing with several teams in the coming weeks)?

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#100 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
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Posted 19 October 2003 - 21:16

And a further update on Damon Hill - he's just bought an Audi dealership in Bristol. :)