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RAC Rally History


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#1 BRG

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Posted 29 November 2002 - 15:01

This is a bit off the usual NF track, but you guys are so resourceful that I thought I could give it a whirl!

Some friends and I are trying to put together a record of the routes and all the stages used by the RAC Rally/Rally GB each year since it became a stage rally back in 1961. We are basically looking for route outlines showing the locations of the time and passage controls and the stage starts and finishes plus the overall time schedule.

This was usually provided on an opening page(s) of the road-book, or alternatively was in the rally programme or in the pages of Autosport or Motoring News. We already have the recent routes, but I would be grateful if anyone can provide any route outlines from before 1994. If you can help, or if you can point us to an information source, please PM me so that we can make whatever arrangements are necessary.

Thanks in advance! :wave:

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#2 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 29 November 2002 - 15:52

Not OT at all, in my view ;)

Some of these routes you require, can be found in a UNIQUE MOTOR BOOKS compilation of magazine articles, called RAC RALLY 1956-1981. ISBN 1 84155 133 3.

It is listed at http://www.millhousebooks.com/ at £13.95

RAC Rally 1956-1981(UP)
Category: Motorsport
Unique Portfolio


I have mentioned it before, but will again, that the RAC from those years were something different from todays event, they did the number of Special Stages in one day, that todays event does in three days.... The 1975 event contained 72 Special Stages...;)

Posted Image

Roger Clark at speed on one of the 72 stages during the 1975 RAC. (thks Rob Ryder)

#3 BRG

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Posted 29 November 2002 - 16:15

Rainer

Thanks - I will look for that.

And thanks for a splendid picture as well - particularly as it is of an Escort RS, the classic RAC Rally car, and driven by the master himself, Roger Clark. On a stage in north Wales, judging from the slate surface - maybe Dyfi or Gartheiniog?

#4 Pete Stowe

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Posted 29 November 2002 - 19:42

Originally posted by BRG
Some friends and I are trying to put together a record of the routes and all the stages used by the RAC Rally/Rally GB each year since it became a stage rally back in 1961. We are basically looking for route outlines showing the locations of the time and passage controls and the stage starts and finishes plus the overall time schedule.

This was usually provided on an opening page(s) of the road-book, or alternatively was in the rally programme or in the pages of Autosport or Motoring News. We already have the recent routes, but I would be grateful if anyone can provide any route outlines from before 1994. If you can help, or if you can point us to an information source, please PM me so that we can make whatever arrangements are necessary.

You could try the NMM Reference Library at Beaulieu - ask them to dig out the previews from MN or Autosport (or Autocar or Motor for the earlier years). They will charge a small fee & for the copying, but will probably be able to find most of what you want. They might also have some of the route cards.

#5 kabouter

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Posted 29 November 2002 - 23:52

For the years 1990-1994 you can check the archives on Darren Galpin's page. There are all the Ceefax pages on the rally, previewing each stage, no graphics of course...

http://www.silhouet....rt/almanac.html

#6 jarama

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Posted 30 November 2002 - 00:14

British,

I can provide you with the route for various years, but in "words" form, nor maps.

To say:

Starting point: X
Route: giving the main locations, rest-halts, overnight halts, etc
Finish point: Y

If you're interested, let me know and I'll send to you what I have via PM or posting here if there are other TNFers interested.

Carles.

#7 kabouter

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Posted 30 November 2002 - 01:07

Something that is slightly related to this thread - it is about the RAC Rally... - and just came up again:
In World Rallying 1986 it clearly says 35th RAC Rally. And in 1997 it was the 53rd RAC Rally. So why is there a jump in the number of editions, and when exactly did this jump happen?

#8 jarama

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Posted 30 November 2002 - 08:38

Tjeerd,

the 53rd RAC Rally was counting from its inception -back in 1932, while the 35th is counting only the International issues -from 1951 on.

Carles.

#9 kabouter

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Posted 30 November 2002 - 10:11

Originally posted by jarama
Tjeerd,

the 53rd RAC Rally was counting from its inception -back in 1932, while the 35th is counting only the International issues -from 1951 on.

Carles.

That's a reasonable explanation. But why did the organizers decide before the 1990 edition - I just found out that the shift in naming occurred between 1989 and 1990 - they needed more history in the name?

#10 jarama

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Posted 30 November 2002 - 15:19

Originally posted by kabouter

That's a reasonable explanation. But why did the organizers decide before the 1990 edition - I just found out that the shift in naming occurred between 1989 and 1990 - they needed more history in the name?



:confused:

Carles.

#11 jarama

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Posted 19 January 2003 - 17:32

BRG,

I've just found the route for the 1982 RAC Rally:

Sunday 21st, York - Bramham - Doncaster - Clumber - Sutton Park - Birmingham - Bewdley - Cheltenham (rally halt) - Cardiff

Monday 22nd, Dolgellau (rally halt) - Oulton Park - Manchester - Leeds - York

Tuesday 23rd, York - Croft - Witton - Lambton - Gosforth (rally halt) - Hawick

Wednesday 24th, Carlisle (rally halt) - Keswick - Harewood - York

Thursday 25th, York - Teeside - Scarborough (rally halt) - York

Hope this helps.

Carles.

#12 Rupertlt1

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 23:26

This needs refining but is a start:

 

RAC Rally, 1961, Nov 13/18

161 entries, 2,200 miles

Start: Blackpool, Lancashire [Imperial Hotel, Rally HQ.]

"to Brough and on through the Pennines and the Yorkshire Moors."

SS Kielder Forest (x2), Resdale Forest

Rest-and-Be-Thankful, breakfast stop at Inveraray, SS Onich [Target time: 4 mins], SS Loch Lochy Forest [Target time: 10 mins, 30 Sec], Fort Augustus Control.

Rally HQ, Inverness. Rest halt.

Control at Spittal of Glenshee Hotel. Control at St. Fillans.

"But the night held more Special Stages, and eight Controls in 18 miles in the Tan Hill area of the Lake District."

SS Oliver's Mount, Scarborough, Yorkshire.

SS Selby Forest, near Wetherby "at breakfast time on the Wednesday..." 2.4 miles in 4 minutes.

Mallory Park, 5 timed laps. SS Cannock Chase. SS Oulton Park, 4 laps, one standing start, three flying. Rest halt.

SS Dovey Forest, 17.4 miles, 23 mins target time. SS Sarnau, Cancelled. SS Eppynt 11½ miles, target time 13 mins 50 secs. SS Radnor Forest, 9.8 miles, target 15 minutes.

Prescott at breakfast time, test on short course.

Finish: Test on Madeira Drive, Brighton, Sussex, England

 

RGDS RLT



#13 RS2000

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 23:53

Wow. Long gap since last post before the above one.

I have the Roadbooks from 69, 72, 75, 76, 77 and probably the data sought but not the actual Roadbook for some other years, including 82 and 84 (because I was driving those last two and the co-driver traditionally gets to keep the Roadbook). Some is scanned but I don't currently have a working scanner to do any more.

 

Does the original request stand and what would be done with the data. (have to be a bit careful because some of this is semi promised elsewhere for a possible book)



#14 BRG

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 19:54

Thanks to all.    :up:

 

Back in 2002, this was very early research into an idea that eventually became the Roger Albert Clark Rally.  At the time, there was still a hope of recreating the old RAC format although I did caution others involved that trying to run that many different stages in a day was no longer really feasible what with the modern day requirements for rescue units and medical attendance in every stage, discouraging short stages, and not to mention the Forestry Enterprise's charging structure that favours multiple use of stages rather than a string of single use stages.

 

So no longer needed, for obvious reasons, although if anyone felt like putting together a record of all the routes over the years, that would be a worthwhile exercise.



#15 Rupertlt1

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 20:21

My notes fell out of working to caption the RAC Rally 1961 photographs at Revs:

 

https://revslib.stan...61&commit=Limit

 

I was keen to document the locations - photos need context - hours of fun working out where the pics were taken, with many hours spent on google street view - thrown off course because the pics don't necessarily appear in sequence. Some real stinkers but mostly done! Where was the "Golf View Restaurant" for example? The stage pics without much background remain unidentified. Oliver's Mount eluded me for ages as I thought the pics were in Scotland! It dawned on me having stood at one location donkeys' year ago - Andy Dawson in Chequered Flag Stratos? Mintex?

 

Could somebody remove the OT prefix from this topic? More than a decade has gone by with folk thinking this is not a legit subject for enquiry?

 

More generally documenting this is valuable - we've lost so much - let us get it down!

 

RGDS RLT 



#16 RS2000

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 23:28

What I have been trying to get down for some years now is the registration numbers of cars competing on the "proper" RAC (60-85). It looks as if that large collection of photos enlarge enough to add to the list. Thanks for posting.



#17 Rupertlt1

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 23:45

I am tagging all the registration numbers where possible so they become searchable. In many cases you can trace the individual histories of cars.

 

I just cracked this puzzle - where?

 

https://revslib.stan...log/nn424pk8232

 

https://www.google.c...!7i13312!8i6656

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 10 January 2016 - 23:48.


#18 Rupertlt1

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 11:52

Here is one I can't crack. Where is the Red Lion Hotel?

 

https://revslib.stan...log/qq766nx9344

 

RGDS RLT



#19 RS2000

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 14:21

Obviously a TC. Not TC1 because it started from Blackpool at 4pm so dark by TC1 Skipton. Pickering, Carron(dawn), Inverness(supper halt), Nairn, Brechin, Peebles, Blackpool (overnight), Oulton Park, Clocaenog, Penmachno, Coed y Brenin, Dovey, Abergavenny(breakfast halt), Monmouth, Gloucester, Filton, Clifton, Cheddar, Radstock, Ilchester, Bovington, Oakdale TC just before Bournemouth finish.

 

Nothing rings bells and the building style doesn't help. Could be Wales but the route in later years would have gone much the same way so I would probably recognise it if it was.


Edited by RS2000, 11 January 2016 - 14:24.


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#20 Rupertlt1

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 15:34

Looks like Red Lion Hotel, Armathwaite, near Carlisle:

 

http://www.francisfr...l-c1965_a293016

 

Now called the Fox and Pheasant ):

 

https://www.google.c...!8i6656!6m1!1e1

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 11 January 2016 - 15:41.


#21 BRG

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 17:30

Fascinating shots, although a bit before my time.  But as a former Sunbeam Rapier owner, I liked the shots of Rapiers in the forest!

 

Are the shots in chronological order?  I was wondering about that Golf View Restaurant.  The only one that comes up on Google is a very posh place in NAirn and it definitely isn't that one!



#22 Rupertlt1

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 17:35

No, the shots are not in any order.  Control at Golf View Restaurant, Fort Augustus, Scotland. RGDS RLT



#23 RS2000

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 19:29

The link in Post 17 (Peebles Hydro) is an interesting photo as it shows the old era and the new - Phil Simister's Anglia and the first International appearance of a Cortina. According to Don Barrow, Simister obtained a Cortina soon after and it creased up after just one night rally (shades of the works Mk2s...)

 

All these photos are an amazing resource. The 1964 RAC ones cover nearly the entire entry and include the downhill Porlock stage (whatever were they thinking running it that way - although it was scheduled again in that direction in 1976 until a last minute change...).


Edited by RS2000, 11 January 2016 - 19:33.


#24 David Birchall

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 22:42

As the owner of a car that competed in the RAC Rally in 1954 I am interested to learn why the RAC is described as "proper" after 1960. Was it a much simpler rally prior to that?

#25 AAGR

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 22:54

Up to 1959, inclusive, the RAC was all-road-section event, with results sorted out by night navigation, driving tests, and circuit racing. In 1960 just four special stages were added (all of them held in Scotland, three of them on public roads closely especially for the occasion), and from 1961 the vast majority of the competitive sections were on the rough tracks of the Forestry Commission, where higher speed targets were set..


Edited by AAGR, 12 January 2016 - 10:12.


#26 AAGR

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:10

Regarding the 1954 event, there were two starts in this 'Rally of the Tests' - at Hastings and Blackpool - and a common route from Blackpool to Blackpool. Although there were no Special Stages as such, the following 'tests' were imposed along the way :

 

Driving/Autotests - Hastings, Blackpool, Charterhall, and 'Ulpha' (Lake District)

Sprint/driving tests - Goodwood, Oulton Park and Silverstone

Hill climb - Prescott

Stop /restart tests - Yorkshire + Lancashire

Night navigation sections - Peak District and Wales

 

  All in a 1,200 miles event, covering five days in March, with a single night halt at Blackpool in mid-event.

 

  No wonder that the really hardened rallying fraternity, especially those from continental Europe, did not call it a 'proper' rally....



#27 David Birchall

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 18:33

Many thanks AAGR. I have photos of the car at Prescott and what I believe is the Lake District during the event.

#28 AAGR

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 19:05

 People, incidentally, ask how the RAC rally of 1960 could run what were effectively 'Special Stages' on three of the four special sections listed above, without breaking the law ? 

 

[The other stage, over Monument Hill near Dalmally, was not a public highway ....]

 

  The answer is that their target averages were 30mph - the same as any other public highway section of the day - but they were closed to non-rally traffic while the RAC went through. All three of those stages, by the way, were 'cleanable' - as they were by 'my' driver.

 

  The longest stage took in the B869 north of Lochinver, on the Atlantic coast, the other two stages being close to the eastern shore of Loch Ness, near Inverfarigaig.

 

  When I asked Major Tennant-Reid, the Secretary of the RSAC, how this could have been done, he grinned, clapped me on the shoulder, and whispered : 'Ach weill, this is Scotland laddie ....'


Edited by AAGR, 12 January 2016 - 19:06.


#29 jrally

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 14:54

Good evening !

 

Does anyone have, by chance, the complete results of the 63,64 and 65 editions of the RAC rally that could share ?

 

Thank You in advance

Best regards

Jorge



#30 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 19:13

It's the Snooty Fox at Armathwaite in the Eden Valley south of Carlisle. If it was 1962 it must have been an early MGB - interesting registration - who was the driver?

The pub is now the Fox & Phaeasant



#31 Rupertlt1

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 19:23

Derwent Motorsport: Keep up, I gave the answer in post #20. Who is driving the MGB? RGDS RLT



#32 RS2000

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 19:38

R.Richard/G.Davies



#33 Rupertlt1

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 19:40

Anything known about them? RGDS RLT



#34 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 20:06

Actually Rupert, it was never the Red Lion which is just along the road



#35 Rupertlt1

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 20:17

It says "Red Lion Hotel" on the sign in the picture. RGDS RLT

 

See also: http://www.francisfr...l-c1965_a293016


Edited by Rupertlt1, 21 January 2016 - 20:32.


#36 BRG

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 20:39

 People, incidentally, ask how the RAC rally of 1960 could run what were effectively 'Special Stages' on three of the four special sections listed above, without breaking the law ? 

 

Perfectly legitimate, surely?  The 30mph average is the same as used on all those road rallies of yore.  There was no overall speed limit in 1960, so no problem there and all the legislation about driving standards didn't come until much later. It was and is easy enough to get a road closure order - the problem for modern rallying is that road traffic legislation still applies, so driving too fast and in a 'reckless' fashion as on a special stage is breaking the law (supposedly).  Of course, the RAC MSA would never countenance anything so risky nowadays, with their fixation about liability.



#37 RS2000

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 22:49

1961

R.N. Richards(with an s)/G.C.Davies   No 37    Zephyr   21UNO (a works or ex-works reg no?).   Result N/K.

 

1960

R..N. Richards/G.C.Davies   No 104   Riley 1.5   15SHK   "2nd club team" award. 

 

1959

Robin W. Richards/G.C.Davies   No84   Riley 1.5    15SHK   Retired.

 

 

Entry data would have been complied from hand written entry forms (then and for much later on)  so errors on odd letters to be expected.

 

No idea whether G.C.Davies was the Geoff Davies who co-drove Brian Melia in the Cortina days.

 

Depends on year whether club team award was something hard fought or lucked into. It used to irritate the hell out of genuine amateur motor club teams that a team entered as "Ecurie Cod Filet" or a major motor club and consisting of works crews in works cars could win the club team awards.


Edited by RS2000, 21 January 2016 - 23:04.


#38 Rupertlt1

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 02:31

I thought RR was some sort of media wallah:

 

http://www.historicr...m?driverID=5465

 

1959:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/cb667pd3742

 

1960:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/yv336gs8651

 

1961:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/wx912cm7089

 

https://revslib.stan...log/ns389yb3782

 

https://revslib.stan...log/cv880ty5379

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 22 January 2016 - 03:01.


#39 Tim Murray

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 02:54

There was (at least) one other Robin Richards around in motor sport at the time, who apparently regularly got confused with his BBC namesake, even in the TNF thread about him:

Robin Noel Richards

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#40 AAGR

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 09:13

The 'rallying Robin Richards' was a very competent rally driver who ran, I believe, a garage in Essex not far from Boreham. Geoff Davies was, indeed, the same person who later accompanied Brian Melia on some events in the 1960s.

 

  The two Robins could not have looked more different - for the 'rallying Robin' was tall, slim, with a military-type moustache, while the 'BBC Robin' was shorter, a lot plumper, and much more of an extrovert ....

 

  I knew them both quite well. Incidentally, if ever you get a chance (no, haven't a clue how) to listen to 'BBC Robin's' radio commentaries on major rallies, listen out for his comments about  exploits of 'Morell' who was a fictional entrant ....


Edited by AAGR, 22 January 2016 - 09:25.


#41 Rupertlt1

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 10:48

AAGR: Do you recognise this man?

 

https://revslib.stan...log/cb667pd3742

 

"the 'rallying Robin' was tall, slim, with a military-type moustache"

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 22 January 2016 - 12:11.


#42 AAGR

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 15:08

I recognise the car, a Riley 1.5, for sure (I was on that rally ....), but the man standing outside the Riley is presumably nothing to do with it. The registration number is Essex, which figures, as 'rallying Robin' ran a garage in the village of Boreham.



#43 Rupertlt1

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 15:16

AAGR: Zoom the picture and take a look at the driver. RGDS RLT



#44 AAGR

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 16:18

Yup, I have. That looks like Robin at the wheel of the Riley, complete with neat moustache and slicked back hair.

 

I was running in Car 98 by the way, as 'Codger' Malkin's co-driver, so we saw a lot of the Riley during the event. 'Codger', by the way, was Colin Malkin's father ....

 

  And, thank you for asking, we drove round the snow-blocked road in the Scottish mountains, and finished fifth in a works-specification Sunbeam Rapier.



#45 Rupertlt1

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 16:20

AAGR: Do you know the registration number of the Sunbeam Rapier? RGDS RLT

 

Here:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/rn647dz7174

 

https://revslib.stan...log/nm887dd8272

 

https://revslib.stan...log/ht550xx4777

 

https://revslib.stan...log/td883sd2967

 

#98, WWK 1

 

So, who is the man at the time clock?


Edited by Rupertlt1, 22 January 2016 - 16:43.


#46 RS2000

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 16:25

WWK1?



#47 AAGR

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 18:04

Yes - it was WWK 1. And the youth at the time clock is me ....



#48 Rupertlt1

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 18:15

Can you give a full caption for the four pictures please? RGDS RLT



#49 AAGR

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 19:13

Top : Brands Hatch, last afternoon

 

Next down : Brands Hatch, Time Control

 

Then :  Prescott, Pardon Hairpin, last morning

 

Finally :  Prescott hillclimb.

 

  Is this a wind-up ?



#50 Rupertlt1

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 19:39

No, I'll caption the pictures. What are crew names? RGDS RLT