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#1 bill moffat

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Posted 06 December 2002 - 12:16

Many years ago found a quite dramatic (and very large) photographic print in an antique shop. First impressions suggested that the photo was of a voiturette on its native French soil circa 1910. Suitably cleaned and framed the picture has hung happily and impressively in my consulting room since....

Recent detective work (with the assistance of Messrs Google and Georgano) has given me the answer. A driver by the name of Lebouc at the GP of Dieppe in 1908. How he can look so cool seated (?mounted) in his monstrous-looking Sizaire Naudin I do not know.

I believe Lebouc contested the whole 1908 voiturette season but with less success than either Georges Sizaire or Louis Naudin.....but then the trail goes dead; did he go on to lesser/greater things ? I suspect one of you lot will know...

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#2 Evo One

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Posted 06 December 2002 - 13:03

I cannot find any reference to Lebouc in Pomeroy's book 'The Grand Prix Car' but mention is made of the Sizaire Naudin - aparently it had a single cylinder engine with a bore and stroke of 100 X 250 mm!

The height of the engine probably went some way towards making the car look monstrous.

It managed an average speed of 65.43 MPH for an hour at Brooklands in 1908.

#3 robert dick

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Posted 06 December 2002 - 14:13

I have nothing about Lebouc here in my office, will check my old magazines and come back.
From memory, Lebouc drove for Sizaire et Naudin in the 1908 season, in July in the GP des Voiturettes in Dieppe, and in September in the Coupe de l’Auto pour Voiturettes in Compiègne.

Ex ante, because interesting, a rare cutaway of the 1908 Sizaire racer engine :

Posted Image

Bore/stroke = 100/250 mm, engine height = 105 cm, i.o.e. head, 75 mm valves, crankshaft in two ball bearings, 30 HP at 2400/min, lubrication through pure castor oil extra imported by a specialist from Marseille, throttle via variable inlet lift.

#4 David McKinney

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Posted 06 December 2002 - 15:04

The reason for odd dimensions of the S-N engines - and to a lesser extent those of the rival Lion-Peugeots - was that the voiturette regs of the time called for a limited bore, but neglected to restrict stroke.

#5 robert dick

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Posted 06 December 2002 - 15:58

Regulations for the Coupe de l’Auto :

1906 :
singles = max. 94 mm bore/min. 578 kg weight ... up to ... max. 120 mm/905 kg
twins = 70 mm/792 kg ... up to ... 90 mm/963 kg
1907 :
singles = 85 mm/450 kg ... 100 mm/670 kg
twins = 71 mm/687 kg ... 80 mm/850 kg
1908 :
GP in Dieppe :
singles = max. 100 mm bore; twins max. 78 mm; three cyl. max. 68 mm; four cyl. max. 62 mm; min. weight for all = 600 kg
Compiègne :
100, 80, 65 mm bore for 1-, 2-, 4-cyl./500, 600 and 650 kg respectively

In fact the bore was always limited. While the engine speed is the limiting factor when the displacement is prescribed, in this case it is the piston speed. In 1906 and 1907 l’Auto left open a margin so that the engineers could decide how to reach the limiting factors.
Another important point is that the pistons ran very hot, with self ignition as a consequence. Smaller pistons could easier and quicker transfer their heat to the cylinder walls so that a small bore engine could run at higher speeds.
The Sizaire engine reached its balance (max. engine speed in combination with max. piston speed) with 100/250 mm.
The stroke was restricted in 1909, to 250 mm for singles, and in 1910 to 300 mm. De Dion built a 100/300 mm single.

#6 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 06 December 2002 - 17:53

M. Lebouc's detectable activities in Paul Sheldon's Vol.1:

1907, Oct 28: Coupe Voiturettes (Ramboillet), Sizaire-Naudin #60.
1908, Jul 6: GP de Voiturettes (Dieppe), Sizaire-Naudin #63.
1908, Sep 27: Coupe des Voiturettes (Compiegne), Sizaire-Naudin #32.
1911, Jun 25: Coupe des Voiturettes (Boulogne), Sizaire-Naudin #38.

#7 robert dick

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Posted 07 December 2002 - 09:51

Contemporary magazines give his name as Lebouc and sometimes as Leboucq (with additional “q”). Leboucq seems more probable. No first name mentionned.

Leboucq appeared in 1907 in the Coupe de l’Auto at Rambouillet, at the wheel of a Sizaire, finished 13th, 52 minutes behind his team leader and race winner Naudin. No trace of him before 1907, neither in voiturette races, nor in the usual French hillclimbs, nor in motorcycle races.

In 1908 he took part in the GP des Voiturettes and the Coupe de l’Auto, his mechanic being Dettelin both races.
In the GP des Voiturettes in Dieppe his time for the first lap (characteristic for the race) was 1 h 0’ 52” in comparison to Guyot’s Delage 56’ 39”, Naudin’s Sizaire 59’ 4” and Sizaire’s Sizaire 59’ 30”. In comparison to Naudin, Leboucq lost 48” in this lap, or 0,6 seconds per km. The reason may be that Leboucq’s car weighed 780 kg, Naudin’s only 730 kg (Guyot’s Delage 620 kg). Guyot won in 5 h 45’ 30 “, average 80,34 km/h. Leboucq finished 9th in 6 h 36’ 57”, average 69,82 km/h.
In the Coupe de l’Auto in Compiègne Leboucq finished 4th in 5 h 43’ 50”. Naudin won in 5 h 14’ 8”.

Some more details of the 1908 Sizaire racer: single plate clutch, 3-speed box, wheelbase 225 cm, track 117 cm, tyres 760x90, weight 730, 750 and 780 kg.

In 1911 the Sizaire entries for the Coupe de l’Auto were cancelled, the cars not being ready. And Leboucq disappeared.

Conclusion : Probably Leboucq was a kind of development engineer at Sizaire who tried out new solutions, a fact underlined by his starts on - by far - the heaviest car.

#8 bill moffat

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Posted 07 December 2002 - 10:35

Robert thank you so much for all this information..the power of this forum is proven once again..At the risk of being pedantic my print is of such good quality that the (Michelin) tyres are clearly marked as being 810x90..perhaps another development being tested by Lebouc ?

#9 robert dick

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Posted 07 December 2002 - 11:18

The 760x90 tyres were indicated in a pre-race data sheet. The easiest method to increase the final ratio was to fit 810x90 tyres. Apparently the track in Dieppe was faster than expected.

#10 Marcor

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Posted 07 December 2002 - 18:54

A Mister Leboucq - who was previously riding-mechanic to a famous French works GP driver - took part in some little meetings in Belgium Circa 1922-1923. I suppose this is the same man. He drove a Touring car Citroën in the Spa, Ostende and Namur meetings (hillclimb or flying km sprints).

#11 Doug Nye

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Posted 07 December 2002 - 20:21

Et voila - Monsieur Lebouc (or Leboucq) avec son Sizaire-Naudin ... actually racing through the streets of Pierrefonds during the Coupe des Voiturettes, 1908... on his way to 4th place.

Posted Image

Sorry it's not up to the usual GPL quality...

DCN

#12 bill moffat

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Posted 08 December 2002 - 12:09

.....arguably contributing to l'equipe S.N's finest day. Naudin and Sizaire finished first and second respectively, Jules Goux's Lion-Peugeot narrowly depriving ( by 3 seconds after nearly six hours!) the team of a 1-2-3 finish.

The future was less bright, the single cylinder machine becoming out-gunned by a variety of multi-cylinder hardware. Obscurity beckoned for the Sizaire-Naudin marque. A brief reincarnation in the early 1920's (albeit without the involvement of the eponymous Messrs Sizaire et Naudin) merely delayed the end.

#13 robert dick

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Posted 27 December 2002 - 09:52

Our friend Leboucq emerged very prominently in September 1921, in the Italian GP at Brescia, as riding mechanic in the winning 3-litre 8-cylinder Ballot of Jules Goux.

#14 David Beard

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Posted 27 December 2002 - 10:18

Originally posted by bill moffat
[B-3 finish.

The future was less bright, the single cylinder machine becoming out-gunned by a variety of multi-cylinder hardware. Obscurity beckoned for the Sizaire-Naudin marque. A brief reincarnation in the early 1920's (albeit without the involvement of the eponymous Messrs Sizaire et Naudin) merely delayed the end. [/B]


The Sizaire Berwick was the brief reincarnation?. (there was bother with Rolls Royce about using the same radiator design) Alas, no competition history of which I am aware. My grandfather drove one when he was chauffeur to the gentleman who owned Clearwell Castle in the Forest of Dean, in the early 20s.

#15 bill moffat

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Posted 27 December 2002 - 13:06

not sure really, but probably not...Georgano mentions S-N reappearing in voiturette racing in the early 20's powered by 4 pot Ballot engines..but without involvement of either Sizaire or Naudin. I just wonder whether these were reincarnated versions of the 1912 Coupe d'Auto (3 litre) cars. Makes sense really..non competitive cars mothballed during the Great War and then dusted off and fitted with a newer engine design after hostilities had finished...but I might be wrong.

The Sizaire-Berwicks were the result of an Anglo-French marriage (in 1912) between the Sizaires and Frederick Berwick. Mr B was a London car dealer with status sufficient to have showrooms in Berkeley St W1. The chassis were produced in France and driven to La Manche, shipped over to England and then bodied at Fred's workshops in Highgate NW6. Production of these graceful vehicles was essentially between 1912 and 1914, some of the later chassis were equipped with armoured car bodywork and re-traced their steps to Northern France. I doubt whether these rather stately vehicles had any competition history.

The Rolls radiator design was allowable as RR had only registered their design in the UK and not in France. Sizaire Berwick called in the receivers in 1920, the Sizaires apparently returning to obscurity. Berwick was then involved in the British version of the French (again) Salmson..but that's another story...

#16 David Beard

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Posted 27 December 2002 - 13:48

Originally posted by bill moffat
The Rolls radiator design was allowable as RR had only registered their design in the UK and not in France.


Apparently..."This resulted in a settlement out of court for £25000 in favour of Sizaire-Berwick as they had taken the precaution of registering the design whilst Rolls-Royce had not!"
Later the S-B had a vee shaped radiator.

(Ref Clutton, Bird, Harding. )

#17 robert dick

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Posted 28 December 2002 - 11:45

Maurice Sizaire, his younger brother Georges, and Louis Naudin = Établissements Sizaire & Naudin Automobiles – built the well known single-cylinder voiturettes in Paris/Rue de Lourmel - backed by the Duc d’Uzès – beginning at the 1905 Salon in the Grand Palais.
In 1910/11 two 4-cylinders were added (70/120 mm and 70/170 mm) but never fully developped. After the debacle in the 1912 GP, the Duc d’Uzès fired the Sizaire brothers. Louis Naudin died in 1913.
The Sizaire & Naudin company continued to exist and to built cars, with 4-cylinder Ballot engines, until 1921, then went bankrupt.

1912 3-litre racer :
4 x single steel cylinders (78/156 mm) bolted together – crankshaft in 5 plain bearings – 2 side camshafts, each one in 3 ball bearings - 4 horizontal 55 mm-valves per cylinder, operated via pushrods and rockers – 3 plugs per cylinder – 80 HP at 2600/min, 90 at 3000.
Single plate clutch – 4 speed box in unit with rear axle – no differential.
Independent front wheels, transverse leaf spring – wheelbase 300 cm, track 132 cm – tyres 815x105 front, 820x120 rear.
= = = = =
Maurice and Georges Sizaire + Berwick + Alexander Keiller (financial backing) = Automobiles Sizaire-Berwick – production (or better assembling) in Coubevoie/Rue Louis Blanc - components by de Collanges – announced in The Motor/11 February 1913 (80/150 mm – L-head engine) - exhibited (one naked chassis and a Labourdette Coupé-Chauffeur) at the Paris Salon in October 1913 (90/160 mm) – exposition rooms in Paris/28, Avenue des Champs-Élysées and London/18, Berkeley Street – export of the chassis via Dieppe under the direction of Jack Warner.
Berwick offered a Limousine “Berkeley”, a torpédo “Sandown”, a coach “Burlington”, a coupé-chauffeur “Hanover”, a torpédo-sport “Atalanta” and a torpédo “Malvern” – chassis price 735 L. 139 chassis delivered untill August 1914.
During WWI Georges Sizaire was personal chauffeur of President Raymond Poincaré, of course at the wheel of a Sizaire-Berwick.
After WWI production in London/Abbey Road/Park Royal (new radiators – 95/160 mm) – 200 chassis built until 1923 – price 1550 L – factory closed in 1924.
The Coubevoie assembling plant (including licence) was sold to an American named Burke. Maurice Sizaire remained in the position of a consulting engineer, designed an OHV-head. Such an OHV Sizaire-Berwick took part in the 1925 24 h Le Mans race (drivers Franconi and Dupont), broke down in lap 23.
A Lycoming engined Sizaire-Berwick was exhibited at the October 1927 Paris Salon = the end of the French Sizaire-Berwick.
= = = = =
While working in London for Berwick at the beginning of the Twenties, Maurice Sizaire and his loyal draftsmen Voignier and Lapeyre designed the 4 RI (4 roues indépendantes), a 2-litre (76/110 mm – SOHC-head) exhibited under the name Sizaire Frères at the 1923 Paris Salon. The Société des Automobiles Sizaires Frères was founded in 1922, backed by M. Waroquier, an automobile agent from Fourmies, and Paul Dupuy, a newspaper owner (Petit Parisien, Le Miroir des Sports).
A 4 RI driven by Bussienne was second in the 1926 Monte Carlo Rallye.
Willys-Overland bought a licence of the independent suspension.
Production stopped in 1929.

#18 David Beard

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 10:47

Thankyou, Robert

Did you ever come across the name Colonel Vericker with respect to the Sizairre-Berwick, by any chance?

#19 robert dick

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 11:30

Vericker : Consciously I did not come across the name.

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#20 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 01 January 2003 - 01:37

Originally posted by robert dick
Louis Naudin died in 1913.


Not quite.

He died in 1958.

#21 robert dick

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Posted 01 January 2003 - 09:39

Death of Naudin :

Are you sure that there is no confusion? A few French magazines, published within the last thirty years, wrote that Naudin died in 1913. I have no contemporary report.
I am not sure when Maurice Sizaire died, but this could be 1958.

#22 Marcor

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Posted 26 February 2003 - 19:25

I've found the first name of Mister Leboucq, it was JULES. He had the French nationality. In the 20's he was working in Belgium and this work was linked with the family DE BUCK, whose father was an important French cars dealer at Brussels (Citroën, Ballot, Bugatti, ...) and son was RENÉ DE BUCK who tragically died in 1927 (10 May) at Chimay, testing a 1100 cc Imperia before the GP des Frontières.

Source: the newspaper L'ÉTOILE BELGE, really into motorsport in the 20's. One of the heads of the newspaper, A. Madoux, took part in the first race at Antwerpen in April 1901, 1 km-sprint, with - i.e- Pierre de Crawhez, A. Joostens, de Spirlet, Mulders de Bagenrieux, Heirman, Xavier & Émile de Beukelaer, Victor Rossel (from the newspaper LE SOIR, the biggest Belgium newspaper, still in 2003), Camille Jenatzy, Fernand Collignon, ...

#23 fines

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Posted 27 February 2003 - 18:20

Originally posted by Marcor
(...) Victor Rossel (...)

would that be the same man that won Spa - Francorchamps in 1896 and took part in Paris - Bordeaux - Paris (1895) and Paris - Marseille - Paris (1896)?

#24 Marcor

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Posted 27 February 2003 - 18:41

I can find the results of the 1901 Anvers meeting, as my library has microfilms of Le Soir and L'ÉTOILE BELGE. I'm not really interested by this period but I'm ok to check it for you. Would you be interested ? Give me some days to answer !!

Le Soir is from Brussels, and the only things I know about the winner of 1896 Spa race are from the Delsaux and Kupelian books. Delsaux says Rossel was from Lille (in France)...