134 replies to this topic

[Sharman]

...... to win in FJ (and if you really wanted to be top of the pile in late 1962 and 1963 then you needed one of the "special" Cosworth cylinder heads).

By which time I had already become disillusioned and had become involved in Marque racing..when again some people began using ultra works developed etc.. over to you Roger

Edited by Sharman, 22 November 2011 - 08:13.

[Ray Bell]

We had a similar situation here with Clubman racing...

The engine rules were essentially the same, but with a 1300cc limit and SOHC allowed if the engine had it originally. The money was 'thrown at' Corolla engines and unless someone did a huge development on something else (individual development, I mean), nothing could beat them.

They were far from the ideal engine, but the money was behind them.

Any half-decent Peugeot 304 engine would have fixed them, but they simply weren't on anyone's radar. That's what happens, an engine gets the development and once it starts to dominate very few think outside the box.

[Peter Morley]

In the context of this thread, rocker cover and drum brakes not withstanding, can we say the motor in the photo Ralf kindly posted looks anything like the 90hp motor Peter Arundell might have used at the Monza test ?

Nothing like - the engine in the photo is using a non-Ford head casting so 50% of the main regulations for an FJ engine haven't been met (e.g. head & block from a road car).

When they first came out (over 20 years ago) we were told that Richardson used blank castings obtained from Holbay (or at least John Read's patterns).
The castings were for downdraught heads which is why they are featureless above the inlet ports and so visibly different to a Ford head that they could never have ran them in period (if they had existed at the time).

Apart from thicker floor etc, an advantage of starting with a blank casting is that you aren't restricted to the original port shape or location...
I understand that they have now made new patterns so that the heads look like Ford ones, but I suspect they didn't go as far as correcting the ports shapes etc...

It is only recently that stories about Ford casting special heads have appeared - one of the most convincing ones was that a batch was cast upside down one weekend, resulting in a thicker floor (since the core settles lower).
And only recently that Cosworth have been suggested as a source for special head castings - which doesn't fit with what they produced.

When you consider how many castings Ford would have been making it is more likely that they simply let engine builders choose the best blocks & heads (as was expected by the rule makers) - in a similar way to their later marking of twin-cam type blocks to show their suitability for over-boring.

[Peter Morley]

A very true statement. Unfortunately FJ died in period because of the costs associated with this non-standard engines (and other components) and today we seem to be reaching the same point with cars built to the intent of the original formula being completely outclassed by cars with engines that produce power that has no resemblance to that produced in period by correct engines. Improvements in technology would give some gains but not to the extent you have mentioned with the BMC engines- or with Ford engines a 30% increase.

But the non-standard components they were talking about were things like steel cranks and rods, the majority of original Ford Junior engines ran quite happily with a Ford road car crankshaft (albeit specially prepared) and reprofiled camshafts etc.
They weren't talking about blocks & heads, which would have been illegal anyway, it was a pretty cheap formula and the cost of a steel crank/rods would have had a significant effect on the overall cost at the time.

The real problem with the cost was the presence of all the works (or semi-works) teams, who had the best of everything and pushed the costs beyond the reach of the amateurs who originally made the formula.
That is one reason they replaced it with two formulae - F2 for the wealthy & F3 for the less so, being the intention....

If you think that current FJ costs are escalating you should look back 20 odd years to the introduction of Richardson engines - my Lotus 22 was worth around 12 grand and had a £2,500 period correct engine and then someone came along with a 10 grand engine that was so much quicker you hadn't a hope in hell of competing. I don't think anyone is doubling the already substantial current prices of Juniors as happened back in the good ole days...

Given that the engine in question had a non-Ford head and was oversized (using DFV pistons - that 'oversight' was later corrected) it clearly didn't meet the original regulations and that was the time to do something about it.
Nowadays the FIA rulebook says that Richardson heads are acceptable since they are interchangeable with the original - I assume the word interchangeable lost something in translation since the inlet manifolds don't transpose...

[Ralf Pickel]

I guess I should apologise for posting the engine photo above in the first place - I did not mean to start any controversy.
I was just supposed to be a illustration for the topic.
Of course you are all right - escalating costs are the nail in the coffin for any series or type of car and should be superfluos in historic racing.
But as soon as egos are involved - I can only qoute again my examples above - Cooper Bristols, ERAs and E-Hot Rods...

[Sharman]

I guess I should apologise for posting the engine photo above in the first place - I did not mean to start any controversy.
I was just supposed to be a illustration for the topic.
Of course you are all right - escalating costs are the nail in the coffin for any series or type of car and should be superfluos in historic racing.
But as soon as egos are involved - I can only qoute again my examples above - Cooper Bristols, ERAs and E-Hot Rods...

Along with people like Eric Dunsdon and Bauble, I saw all the things mentioned in period, I was offered Remus for £500 but I was still a student and the old man woudn't spring for it and a Cooper Bristol gave about 140bhp on nitro... a few years later a new Elva 100 was juuussst over £1000. A Lister Jaguar in race winning trim was £1500 And now look at them all. It,as always, is money that counts

[ensign14]

Denise McCluggage recorded a conversation.

"Denise, if you'd've kept all your cars, you'd be a millionaire."

"No, if I'd've been a millionaire, I'd've kept all my cars..."

[cdrewett]

During the time that I read Auto Motor und Sport in the 70's & 80's its nearest equivalent would be Motor or Autocar in the UK it has a reputation for meticulous road tests, it also covered motor racing IMHO in a fairly ad hoc way as did the two British publications I mentioned at the time.

When I lived in Germany in the late 70s I used to read AMS regularly. The road tests may have been meticulous, but in comparison tests it was always "der nobler Stern" ie: Mercedes Benz that came out on top.
Got boring after a while.
Chris

[Sharman]

When I lived in Germany in the late 70s I used to read AMS regularly. The road tests may have been meticulous, but in comparison tests it was always "der nobler Stern" ie: Mercedes Benz that came out on top.
Got boring after a while.
Chris

Pretty much the same with any current French magazine, if it is in comparison with a Renault, Citroen or Peugot, it comes off second best. You have to remember that the press and television in France are state controlled, and the country has managed to retain a motor industry.

Edited by Sharman, 22 November 2011 - 17:34.

[arttidesco]

When I lived in Germany in the late 70s I used to read AMS regularly. The road tests may have been meticulous, but in comparison tests it was always "der nobler Stern" ie: Mercedes Benz that came out on top.
Got boring after a while.
Chris

Der nobler Stern can hardly be blamed for making the best cars in the 1970's in the humble opinion of ams can it ?

Or are you not a Janice Joplin fan

Perhaps we digress too far

[fbarrett]

Der nobler Stern can hardly be blamed for making the best cars in the 1970's in the humble opinion of ams can it ?

Or are you not a Janice Joplin fan ;)

Perhaps we digress too far

Although she sang about wanting a Mercedes-Benz, Janice owned a Porsche, so there is indeed a link between her and von Frankenberg...

Frank

[RacingCompagniet]

Der nobler Stern can hardly be blamed for making the best cars in the 1970's in the humble opinion of ams can it ?

Or are you not a Janice Joplin fan ;)

Perhaps we digress too far

Janis, not Janice

[Ralf Pickel]

Link 1
Link 2

Sorry for that - nothing to do with anything above, except Janis ......

[Arese]

Der nobler Stern can hardly be blamed for making the best cars in the 1970's in the humble opinion of ams can it ?

Or are you not a Janice Joplin fan ;)

Perhaps we digress too far

'guter Stern', not 'nobler Stern'

[arttidesco]

Yes indeed Janis & Guter Stern, it's been a while since I played my Janis Joplin Compact Cassette or read ams m'luds

[Sharman]

Not Cosworth but a related topic already mentioned. Who designed the XSP engine? I have never really known who was responsible, did Danny Richmond have any hand in it and was there any input from Warwick or was it all BMC Cpmps?

[David Birchall]

I have always understood that it was Eddie Maher of BMC comps (or Morris Engines) who "designed" it--it was evolutionary really. just sort out the main problems: Stronger crank, stronger block, better flowing head, more head studs and finally dry sumping. I fitted a XSP crank into a standard block - the centre main web had to be narrowed - and fitted an XSP head by drilling two extra holes in the top face of the block. I had to do without the dry sumping unfortunately but the engine was very strong and reliable.

Edited by David Birchall, 24 November 2011 - 03:57.

[Sharman]

I have always understood that it was Eddie Maher of BMC comps (or Morris Engines) who "designed" it--it was evolutionary really. just sort out the main problems: Stronger crank, stronger block, better flowing head, more head studs and finally dry sumping. I fitted a XSP crank into a standard block - the centre main web had to be narrowed - and fitted an XSP head by drilling two extra holes in the top face of the block. I had to do without the dry sumping unfortunately but the engine was very strong and reliable.

In other words David, like Topsy "it just growed"

[D-Type]

Clarification please.
What is the XSP engine? Is it the ultimate development of the BMC 'A-series' as used in the Mini Cooper 'S' and in Formula Junior/ Formula 3.

[Peter Morley]

Clarification please.
What is the XSP engine? Is it the ultimate development of the BMC 'A-series' as used in the Mini Cooper 'S' and in Formula Junior/ Formula 3.

Yes it is the racing version of the BMC engine, they made 1,100cc Formula Junior and 1,000cc F3 versions (which is also acceptable in Junior).
I've got a lovely original F3 example sat here if anyone is looking to make their car original...

[Sharman]

Peter
I don't believe there is very much interchangeable between an XSP and a common or garden "A" type. Even the block is different

[David Birchall]

The first XSP engines , in 1960.used the standard block casting but by 1961 they had started casting special blocks with narrower centre mains, different bore spacing with thicker walls so they could be bored to 1098 and provision for dry sumping using a pump that fitted in the fuel pump hole and driven from the camshaft skew gear. The crank was forged and nitrided. The early Cooper S engine was a direct developement of them and could be easily converted to the dry sump arrangement they used, it also has a nitrided crank. The famous 649 cam was developed and the engines were producing about 98 bhp in 1961-62 on a singe Weber 45. Jackie Stewart won the first year of F3 in a car with a 1000cc XSP.

[RJE]

I can tell you a funny story about XSP engines that happened when I was working in Canada in the early 1960s.

Every now and then I had to collect new cars from the BMC import plant in Hamilton, Ontario. It transpired that somebody in Toronto ordered eight valves for the then rare Cooper S, probably hoping to fit them into a standard A series head as was often done. However somewhere along the line the part numbers got mixed up and eight Formula Junior XSP engines arrived. There were a number of red faces at the plant and much passing of the buck. I can well remember seeing the engines all lined up complete with dry sump pumps and painted in the familiar dirty green BMC colour. We were in fact rather sheepishly asked if we had any use for any of them, and we even tried unsuccessfully to prevail upon a customer to let us build him an A40 racer with one, as were being run in the UK.

I have often wondered if anybody got fired over the mistake and also what was the ultimate fate of those eight units. Were they sent back to England or did they just quitely vanish.

[David Birchall]

I can tell you a funny story about XSP engines that happened when I was working in Canada in the early 1960s.

Every now and then I had to collect new cars from the BMC import plant in Hamilton, Ontario. It transpired that somebody in Toronto ordered eight valves for the then rare Cooper S, probably hoping to fit them into a standard A series head as was often done. However somewhere along the line the part numbers got mixed up and eight Formula Junior XSP engines arrived. There were a number of red faces at the plant and much passing of the buck. I can well remember seeing the engines all lined up complete with dry sump pumps and painted in the familiar dirty green BMC colour. We were in fact rather sheepishly asked if we had any use for any of them, and we even tried unsuccessfully to prevail upon a customer to let us build him an A40 racer with one, as were being run in the UK.

I have often wondered if anybody got fired over the mistake and also what was the ultimate fate of those eight units. Were they sent back to England or did they just quitely vanish.

Wouldn't it be nice to find them sitting in a shed in Toronto? Since they were hand built engines they would be quite costly-I would think they would either be sent back or shipped down to the States. If they had stayed on Toronto I think somebody would be aware of it--any Torontonians have more info?

[Sharman]

Wouldn't it be nice to find them sitting in a shed in Toronto? Since they were hand built engines they would be quite costly-I would think they would either be sent back or shipped down to the States. If they had stayed on Toronto I think somebody would be aware of it--any Torontonians have more info?

In the 70s when I was chairman of a small garage group, manufacturers had the power to access bank accounts and collect the money for vehicles and spares delivered. I remember a large (for us)sum being extracted over the weekend and having a sniffy telphone call at home from a very narked bank manager on the Monday morning. When I got to the site I found we were the proud owners of 11 Renault 17TSs and 15 16TXs, a years agreement for these models. BMC ran a very similar system I think, I bet the company accountant in Canada was grinding his teeth.

[Charlieman]

I'd guess we are talking about something of the order of a 10 - 15 degrees centigrade difference in temperature to the advantage of the engines horsepower in December.

Do any boffins amongst us know what % increase in power output that might equate to ?

Presumably the car would have to work against a stiffer wind resistance in the colder conditions but how much stiffer ?

I'm not a boffin, but basic principles of physics and thermodynamics suggest a trivial power increase -- 1% or 2%. For a better guess, have a look at the ground level air pressure at Milan airport in summer and winter. If you divide the winter air pressure by the summer air pressure, that gives you a good idea of power gain. Humidity difference may be significant too.

[arttidesco]

Thanks Charlieman

[Catalina Park]

It is not quite an EXP but then again I suppose it is... MINI PROTOTYPE ENGINE

[Sharman]

It is not quite an EXP but then again I suppose it is... MINI PROTOTYPE ENGINE

Very inventive was Danny, which is why I asked did he have any hand in the XSP.

[arttidesco]

Thanks to everybody on this thread who knowingly or unknowingly contributed to my Lotus 22 blog

[David McKinney]

Ralph, if you're planning a blog on a particular topic I think it only fair to tell us beforehand. Some people might be happy to contribute to a discussion on this forum, but not so keen about their input appearing on someone's blog somewhere

[bradbury west]

In Lotus; All the cars, Pritchard gives the dimensions as 85mm x 48.15mm for 1092.348cc. In terms of engine development by the end of '62 it may have been that the Cosworth A6 or A8 cams were ready for competition. I am not sure when the A4 or later ones came out. There was a lot of development work by '62 as Costin was there by then, freeing Duckworth for design and development, as was Brian Hart, qv Robson; Cosworth. Also, bear in mind that whilst the 22 had a 30 degree laydown engine installation for a better induction tract, for their '62 FJ cars Ausper offered choices of 15 degrees inclination, or 75 degrees with a downdraught head set up, a design rumoured to have been for Lotus but rejected on tricky installation gounds, so there was probably plenty of trick parts. The Ausper was reported as performimng very well, and with not a top flight driver, so power might have been the answer.
Also racing on his own, Arundell's car might have run a higher/lower diff. ratio to optimise speed .
In anticipation of being wrong
Roger Lund

[Ray Bell]

A small point, Roger...

The diff ratio would have been unlikely to have been changed, but a taller ratio in the gearbox would have been very likely. These were readily interchangeable.

[bradbury west]

Point taken, Ray. As you know I am not an engineer.
Roger

[Doug Nye]

Just read through this thread, top to bottom.  What a great - and erudite - response virtually throughout?

 

DCN