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L'affaire Lotus/von Frankenburg


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#51 Arese

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:20

Art, the line of text that you quote is written in some German that seems to be quite rare - to say it mildly. I would translate it this way: Both Kurt Ahrens jr and Curt Bari had filed cases against Richard von Frankenberg. Von Frankenberg had to apologize to them and give them financial compensation.

Edited by Arese, 16 November 2011 - 11:20.


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#52 arttidesco

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:24

Art, the line of text that you quote is written in some German that seems to be quite rare - to say it mildly. I would translate it this way: Both Kurt Ahrens jr and Curt Bari had filed cases against Richard von Frankenberg. Von Frankenberg had to apologize to them and give them financial compensation.


Thanks Michael, glad to know I was struggling with 'rare' German :up:

#53 Arese

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:28

On a sidenote: does anyone check this matter with the biography "Richard von Frankenberg - mit Vollgas durchs Leben", written by his son Donald? I have a copy of the book but didn't look up what is being discussed here. I think I will do so tonight - not expecting that Donald von Frankenberg might not be biased.

#54 arttidesco

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:37

On a sidenote: does anyone check this matter with the biography "Richard von Frankenberg - mit Vollgas durchs Leben", written by his son Donald? I have a copy of the book but didn't look up what is being discussed here. I think I will do so tonight - not expecting that Donald von Frankenberg might not be biased.


I'd be interested to know anything you find interesting on the subject in "Richard von Frankenberg - mit Vollgas durchs Leben" Michael :wave:

#55 r.atlos

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 13:12

First of all, you should bear with Siegfried Strasser, he is Austrian and writes Austrian German, not German German. However, I am not able to comment on his Mitter book as I have decided after having bought "Rennberg" (against the advice of many friends) that I will no longer squander my money on his publications. Internet assessments of his Mitter book do re-comfort me in this view.

Secondly, if you run through the series of period accusations of RvF, you will not find any hard facts. X has overheard a discussion betwen Y and Z that A should have an oversized engine, while B was said to have threatened team mate C to put in a protest ... and so on and so forth ...

@arttidesco - if you are interested and as I take that you do not have problems with reading German please feel free to PM me your mail address and I can send you the full collection of period snippets I had pulled together for a friend when he was working on his Nürburgring book.

Our friend Stefan Örnerdal is, unfortunately, not correct in listing Alan Rees as DNA. Alan had an accident in practice, so he was DNS in my definition. I think we all agree if a driver/car did not show up for an event he had entered, he is DNA (Did Not Appear); if he showed up but did not start e.g. following problems during practice, he is DNS (Did Not Start).



#56 arttidesco

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 13:28

First of all, you should bear with Siegfried Strasser, he is Austrian and writes Austrian German, not German German. However, I am not able to comment on his Mitter book as I have decided after having bought "Rennberg" (against the advice of many friends) that I will no longer squander my money on his publications. Internet assessments of his Mitter book do re-comfort me in this view.

Secondly, if you run through the series of period accusations of RvF, you will not find any hard facts. X has overheard a discussion betwen Y and Z that A should have an oversized engine, while B was said to have threatened team mate C to put in a protest ... and so on and so forth ...

@arttidesco - if you are interested and as I take that you do not have problems with reading German please feel free to PM me your mail address and I can send you the full collection of period snippets I had pulled together for a friend when he was working on his Nürburgring book.

Our friend Stefan Örnerdal is, unfortunately, not correct in listing Alan Rees as DNA. Alan had an accident in practice, so he was DNS in my definition. I think we all agree if a driver/car did not show up for an event he had entered, he is DNA (Did Not Appear); if he showed up but did not start e.g. following problems during practice, he is DNS (Did Not Start).


Thanks for the clarification on the origins of the difficult German, and the correction to Alan Rees status at the Eifelpokal Rennen Lutz.

I have sent you a PM as requested, thanks for your kind offer of further information.


#57 fbarrett

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 00:56

"the biography "Richard von Frankenberg - mit Vollgas durchs Leben", written by his son Donald"

Was this book ever translated into English? Back in The Old Daze I had minor correspondence with RvF, and he owned one of the prototype 911s, hence my interest.

Frank

#58 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 08:49

Sorry if this has been mentioned somewhere..
In which issues of Auto Motor und Sport had the articles been in ? I would like to read the originals that did lead to the Monza test.

Ralf

#59 Arese

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 10:03

Sorry if this has been mentioned somewhere..
In which issues of Auto Motor und Sport had the articles been in ? I would like to read the originals that did lead to the Monza test.

Ralf


Ralf, even the biography doesn't tell exactly in which issue of "auto, motor und sport" von Frankenberg had published his allegation against Team Lotus. Of course he is quoted saying Lotus had used engines with a higher volume "for the entire season". Which lets me suppose it must have been at the end or maybe late into the season. As far as I understand from reading the biography von Frankenberg "probably" visited Alan Rees in the hospital after Rees's crash in practice for the Eifelrennen and he "might" have retrieved hints from Rees - which of course means there is no evidence that Frankenberg made an interview with Rees and that Rees gave any advice.

In case you've got a collection of all the 1962 issues of "auto, motor und sport", I believe some people might be thankful if you could check them for some news.

By the way: there is a really nice photograph (on page 174 of the book), probably made after the Monza run in December, showing a cheering group of people including Helga von Frankenberg, Colin Chapman and Peter Arundell - with the right arm of the latter lifted up in the air by a smiling Richard von Frankenberg.

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#60 Otto Grabe

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 10:18

Sorry if this has been mentioned somewhere..
In which issues of Auto Motor und Sport had the articles been in ? I would like to read the originals that did lead to the Monza test.

Ralf



Hier, Ralf:


ams 22/62, Formel Junior am Ende? - Die größte Blamage...

ams 23/62, Der Junior-Skandal

ams 24/62, Der Junior-Skandal - Zwischenbericht

ams 25/62, Der Junior-Skandal - 1000 Pfund...

ams 26/62, Die Wette von Monza -Fall Ahrens vor der ONS


Otto


#61 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 10:22

Thank you both for the infos !
Michael - I don´t have the AMS issues in question, but thanks to Otto I now know where to look for the reports.

Ralf

#62 arttidesco

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 10:24

Sorry if this has been mentioned somewhere..
In which issues of Auto Motor und Sport had the articles been in ? I would like to read the originals that did lead to the Monza test.

Ralf


Lutz kindly e-mailed copies of the relevant pages from ams yesterday the dates are are

20 10 62, 03 11 62,
10 11 62,
17 11 62,
01 12 62,
22 12 62,

if you would like me to forward the copies Lutz sent please pm your e-mail address to me.



#63 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 11:09

Thank you very much for that offer - will send PM immediately.

#64 D-Type

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 11:43

Can I ask what type of magazine was Auto Motor und Sport? Was it's policy to be a "popular" magazine aimed to entertain and on occasions putting the story ahead of absolute proven truth, or was it to be a "journal of record" with the emphasis on total accuracy? Would the readership believe it absolutely or take it witha pinch of salt?

I note that it was a weekly so there would not be time for, shall we say, considered reporting with deadlines to meet. On the other hand, it would be possible to correct errors swiftly.

#65 arttidesco

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 12:19

During the time that I read Auto Motor und Sport in the 70's & 80's its nearest equivalent would be Motor or Autocar in the UK it has a reputation for meticulous road tests, it also covered motor racing IMHO in a fairly ad hoc way as did the two British publications I mentioned at the time.

I was surprised to find the relevant issue of ams 20 10 62 included the headline "Disgrace as never before: Formula Junior Swindle" plastered across the cover above a see through image of a Ford 12M (Taunus ?) which was the big road test feature of the week, at the bottom of the cover mention os made of the 1962 paris Salon.

I was only three at the time of these events so I can not judge how the headline and article would have been perceived at the time but if something like that had appeared in the 70's and 80's in ams there would be no taking the allegations with a pinch of salt IMHO.

@Ralf I need your e-mail address to send the files :wave:

Edited by arttidesco, 17 November 2011 - 12:21.


#66 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 12:31

Sorry - totally forgot to include email... new PM on it´s way !

#67 arttidesco

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 12:55

Should be in your inbox  ;)

#68 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 13:03

Thank you !

And big thanks to Lutz / r.atlos for sending it to arttidesco in the first place !

Ralf

#69 Arese

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 13:23

Just an additional information. AMS at that time appeared - and still does today - biweekly. I was a "reader" already in 1962, but too young to remember the issue from what I noticed at the time. It might be of some interest to learn about the status that Richard von Frankenberg had. According to the biography he was "member of the editorial staff" from 1958 until 1963 and also "freelancer" as of 1972.

#70 arttidesco

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 14:26

Just an additional information. AMS at that time appeared - and still does today - biweekly.


I keep forgetting that ams is biweekly :blush:

#71 arttidesco

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 14:30

"the biography "Richard von Frankenberg - mit Vollgas durchs Leben", written by his son Donald"

Was this book ever translated into English? Back in The Old Daze I had minor correspondence with RvF, and he owned one of the prototype 911s, hence my interest.

Frank


Not that I am aware of Frank, but if you'd like to buy a copy I'd be more than happy to translate it for you  ;)

#72 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 15:27

"the biography "Richard von Frankenberg - mit Vollgas durchs Leben", written by his son Donald"

Was this book ever translated into English?


Many German books on racing seem fit to be translated but remain in German available only. A pity.

#73 Arese

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 15:43

Many German books on racing seem fit to be translated but remain in German available only. A pity.


That is true - and vice versa. As for the book about Gerhard Mitter, I believe that even viewing the tremendous number and quality of the pictures is almost like "reading" it.

#74 arttidesco

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 19:20

For the purposes of comparison with the £1,000 bet won in December does any one happen to know how much money Peter Arundell / Team Lotus would have earned when they won the Lotteria in 1962 ?

And / or how much would a Lotus 22 with a new Ford engine have set one back in 1962 ?

#75 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 19:59

A 22 was priced at GBP 1550 in component form and GBP 1625 "assembled for export only".
From "The Lotus Formula Juniors" by Robinson & Bouckley.

Interestingly - the report in AMS mentiones, that after the bet was won by Lotus, a Sig. Motta from Italy bought the car rightaway on the spot for a cheque of GBP 2000 ! If it was an "experimental" engine with the special head well worth the extra amount ! Just consider the costs for the Richardson head today... ;) The bill for the new Richardson engine in my 20, paid by the former owner, was about 12.000 .- a few years ago...

Edited by Ralf Pickel, 17 November 2011 - 20:33.


#76 arttidesco

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 21:55

A 22 was priced at GBP 1550 in component form and GBP 1625 "assembled for export only".
From "The Lotus Formula Juniors" by Robinson & Bouckley.

Interestingly - the report in AMS mentiones, that after the bet was won by Lotus, a Sig. Motta from Italy bought the car rightaway on the spot for a cheque of GBP 2000 ! If it was an "experimental" engine with the special head well worth the extra amount ! Just consider the costs for the Richardson head today...;) The bill for the new Richardson engine in my 20, paid by the former owner, was about 12.000 .- a few years ago...


Thanks for the Robinson & Buckley quote would that be with or without a motor ?

I noticed the bit about the Monza Lion car being sold just after I posted the question :blush:

Sounds like the cost of competing in Formula Junior is not getting any cheaper Ralf how long does the motor run between rebuilds ?

#77 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 08:41

I would think the price is complete with the engine.

As for running time, as they say, it depends..;) Especially if you use max revs all the time...
Actually, I am not (yet) really qualified to give an insight answer, having the car since April and not that much running in anger yet.
But - I was told you should easily get out 1000 Miles + between having a look inside.
Probably, if you would do all rounds of the UK championship + Lurani Trophy etc. you might need a look inside every season.
But there should be better qualified persons here, probably, who might have more experience - I am still learning !
I do know that one engine builder had his engine in the car deliberately for 3 seasons to see what would happen. He told me that it lost a bit of power, but still looked good inside.
A sign of good preparation and good usage of the right components - especially considering the outputs nowadays of around 130 BHP !

Edited by Ralf Pickel, 18 November 2011 - 08:42.


#78 arttidesco

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:14

- especially considering the outputs nowadays of around 130 BHP !


AMS quoted only 90 hp on the day of the Monza Test in Dec 1962 ! :eek:


#79 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:26

Yes, but for the last version of the Cosworth engine before the demise of FJ it was already said to be nearer 110 BHP at 7800 rpm, probably helped by the different head.
Since 9000 rpm are allowed today, that might help to explain where the power increase comes from.
Only a small step, though, considering the giant leap in power outputs in ERAs or Cooper Bristols ! :p

Edited by Ralf Pickel, 18 November 2011 - 09:27.


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#80 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:53

Just to illustrate what an FJ engine looks like  ;)
It only needs a more period rocker cover - there are Cosworth replicas available, but a friend of mine is looking for an original one (he might have one somewhere, but hasn´t found it..), so I am patient !

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#81 arttidesco

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:15

Just to illustrate what an FJ engine looks like ;)
It only needs a more period rocker cover - there are Cosworth replicas available, but a friend of mine is looking for an original one (he might have one somewhere, but hasn´t found it..), so I am patient !

Posted Image


I bet it sounds great thanks for the photo :up:

#82 bradbury west

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 20:44

[quote name='nota38' date='May 2 2011, 15:19' post='4996156']

In a dark corner of a probably fallible memory is a recollection that the measured engine size was 1092cc, not the usual overbore to 1098cc. I remember noticing it in the period report, which I cannot find at present. Similarly ISTR that the word was that the engine was a sleeved 109E, which might indicate a longer throw, possibly special, crank. The 1198 engine had a stroke of 58mm against the 105E with 48mm, and the 1340cc 65mm.
I know Duckworth always asserted from the start, qv the Robson Cosworth book, that the 105E was good for 10,0000 rpm with the right valve springs. Might a longer throw crank have given better cylinder filling? So it might have been a development engine. Off at a tangent, the 1500cc 5 bearing unit was not announced until January 1963, but Cosworth might have had access to it . The 1450cc might have been an error for the standard overbore on the 1340cc engine to give 1475cc, which saloon racers like Alan Peer used in period. But then I may be wrong.
Roger Lund




Edited by bradbury west, 20 November 2011 - 21:58.


#83 hatrat

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 10:36

Yes, but for the last version of the Cosworth engine before the demise of FJ it was already said to be nearer 110 BHP at 7800 rpm, probably helped by the different head.
Since 9000 rpm are allowed today, that might help to explain where the power increase comes from.
Only a small step, though, considering the giant leap in power outputs in ERAs or Cooper Bristols ! :p


The post-period (1964) records I have report that the last Cosworth FJ engine (the Mark XI 1100cc) had a bore of 85mm and a stroke of 48.4mm and produced 100 bhp at 7800 rpm. The similar Holbay engine put out 106 bhp with power falling off over 8000 rpm and the actual on track performance was judged to be a little over 100 bhp although at the end of the 1962 season Holbay found an additional 2 bhp with some head work.

I suspect there were a few "works" Cosworth FJ engines with the improperly cast non-standard heads that gave much more than the stated 100 bhp and this is possibly what was used in the extra speedy standard capacity Lotus 22.

130 bhp now days is remarkable - no wonder I can't keep up with my 90 bhp 997cc FJ engine!!


#84 arttidesco

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:29

In a dark corner of a probably fallible memory is a recollection that the measured engine size was 1092cc, not the usual overbore to 1098cc. I remember noticing it in the period report, which I cannot find at present. Similarly ISTR that the word was that the engine was a sleeved 109E, which might indicate a longer throw, possibly special, crank. The 1198 engine had a stroke of 58mm against the 105E with 48mm, and the 1340cc 65mm.
I know Duckworth always asserted from the start, qv the Robson Cosworth book, that the 105E was good for 10,0000 rpm with the right valve springs. Might a longer throw crank have given better cylinder filling? So it might have been a development engine. Off at a tangent, the 1500cc 5 bearing unit was not announced until January 1963, but Cosworth might have had access to it . The 1450cc might have been an error for the standard overbore on the 1340cc engine to give 1475cc, which saloon racers like Alan Peer used in period. But then I may be wrong.
Roger Lund


I could find no mention of the engine size or weight in the contemporary reports from ams or Motorsport Rundschau of the Monza Test Lotus 22 but
Richard von Frankenberg: Mit Vollgas durchs Leben page 175 mentions that the motor used by Arundell was found to be 1092cc.

#85 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:36

The post-period (1964) records I have report that the last Cosworth FJ engine (the Mark XI 1100cc) had a bore of 85mm and a stroke of 48.4mm and produced 100 bhp at 7800 rpm. The similar Holbay engine put out 106 bhp with power falling off over 8000 rpm and the actual on track performance was judged to be a little over 100 bhp although at the end of the 1962 season Holbay found an additional 2 bhp with some head work.

I suspect there were a few "works" Cosworth FJ engines with the improperly cast non-standard heads that gave much more than the stated 100 bhp and this is possibly what was used in the extra speedy standard capacity Lotus 22.


The number of 110 bhp is quoted in the book mentioned above for the final spec Lotus 27 .
If they really had that much power - difficult to say....

#86 Sharman

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:50

Just to illustrate what an FJ engine looks like ;)
It only needs a more period rocker cover - there are Cosworth replicas available, but a friend of mine is looking for an original one (he might have one somewhere, but hasn´t found it..), so I am patient !

Posted Image


No! It doesn't look anything like a Formula Junior engine, a proper FJ unit had 2 SUs, had Ryetune written on it and gave about 65 brake, (or else it was a FIAT with Webers and gave something over 80) at least in the real FJ years before the manufacturers started throwing money about and made a nonsense of the whole marvellous idea.

#87 arttidesco

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 12:06

No! It doesn't look anything like a Formula Junior engine, a proper FJ unit had 2 SUs, had Ryetune written on it and gave about 65 brake, (or else it was a FIAT with Webers and gave something over 80) at least in the real FJ years before the manufacturers started throwing money about and made a nonsense of the whole marvellous idea.


In the context of this thread, rocker cover and drum brakes not withstanding, can we say the motor in the photo Ralf kindly posted looks anything like the 90hp motor Peter Arundell might have used at the Monza test ?



#88 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 16:12

There shouldn´t be a big difference - you just have to take into consideration that the engine in the 22 was canted over tothe right to give a lower profile and hence the carburettors are monted on slightly different manifolds to keep them level.
Oh - and they probably would not have had blue ignition cables and a fire extinguisher jet either...

Of course - a Ford / Cosworth FJ would never look like a BMC one - but "my" engine man (not Richardson) would not want that to be the case ! :lol:

Ralf

#89 hatrat

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 19:05

A "modern" Ford FJ engine with a standard rocker cover and black ignition leads ......

Posted Image



#90 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 19:23

Very nice - which car ?

#91 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 19:39

Lola?

From memory, stroke had to remain standard... which, of course, didn't preclude the use of the 109E crank.

And I don't understand the comment from Sharman, "...throwing money at it." Perhaps some used SUs when FJr became an International formula, but once that step was taken, surely the stakes got higher in a very natural fashion?

There was, I grant you, a tremendous variety of engines in use at that time and it would have been good for that to continue, but that's simply not the way of motor racing. Everyone wants to win, so everyone buys the engine that gives the most power.

And everyone chases the 'development engine' from the maker with the most power to the finish line.

#92 bradbury west

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 20:59

A "modern" Ford FJ engine with a standard rocker cover and black ignition leads ......

Posted Image

With interesting extended inlet manifolding.

Ray, I think John, Sharman, was referring to BMC engines.
Roger Lund

#93 hatrat

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 21:04

Lola?

From memory, stroke had to remain standard... which, of course, didn't preclude the use of the 109E crank.

And I don't understand the comment from Sharman, "...throwing money at it." Perhaps some used SUs when FJr became an International formula, but once that step was taken, surely the stakes got higher in a very natural fashion?

There was, I grant you, a tremendous variety of engines in use at that time and it would have been good for that to continue, but that's simply not the way of motor racing. Everyone wants to win, so everyone buys the engine that gives the most power.

And everyone chases the 'development engine' from the maker with the most power to the finish line.



Yes its a Lola - my Lola Mk2 chassis BRJ1 - here it is unclothed :

Posted Image

With the SU matter, I understand the very first Ford Cosworth FJ engine used in racing was by Graham Warner in his Gemini Mk2 in practice for the 1959 Boxing Day race at Brands Hatch (after dropping a flywheel in practice the Warner engine was swapped to the Alan Stacey Lotus 18 for the race). The Gemini Ford Cosworth engine ran Webers :

Posted Image

However, the Lola FJ cars in the initial part of the 1960 season ran SUs on their Ford engines until after the Ferrari/Stanguellini Fiat engine swap in the Lolas in June 1960 - after they reverted to the Ford engines they adopted the Webers as used on the Fiat engines.



#94 r.atlos

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:32

Autosport of 22/01/1960 has on page 107 an Anglia engine in a Lotus with Webers. Is that early enough ?

#95 Sharman

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 14:31

Yes its a Lola - my Lola Mk2 chassis BRJ1 - here it is unclothed :


With the SU matter, I understand the very first Ford Cosworth FJ engine used in racing was by Graham Warner in his Gemini Mk2 in practice for the 1959 Boxing Day race at Brands Hatch (after dropping a flywheel in practice the Warner engine was swapped to the Alan Stacey Lotus 18 for the race). The Gemini Ford Cosworth engine ran Webers :

However, the Lola FJ cars in the initial part of the 1960 season ran SUs on their Ford engines until after the Ferrari/Stanguellini Fiat engine swap in the Lolas in June 1960 - after they reverted to the Ford engines they adopted the Webers as used on the Fiat engines.


I'm glad you understood my point, incidentally the pole lap in the Boxing Day race was achieved with approx 65bhp. Somewhere (don't ask me where) I have some photos of the Britannia wearing a Ford unit fitted with SUs.

Ray
My crib about the manufacturers is that the formula called for engines from a production saloon, how many production saloons had Cossie trick heads and how many were supplied with XSP engines?
A car with which I was intimately associated in 1959 when it had 65 brake was present at a commemoration in 2009, when it had circa 120 and that is supposed to be the same formula?

#96 hatrat

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 18:01

My crib about the manufacturers is that the formula called for engines from a production saloon, how many production saloons had Cossie trick heads and how many were supplied with XSP engines?
A car with which I was intimately associated in 1959 when it had 65 brake was present at a commemoration in 2009, when it had circa 120 and that is supposed to be the same formula?


A very true statement. Unfortunately FJ died in period because of the costs associated with this non-standard engines (and other components) and today we seem to be reaching the same point with cars built to the intent of the original formula being completely outclassed by cars with engines that produce power that has no resemblance to that produced in period by correct engines. Improvements in technology would give some gains but not to the extent you have mentioned with the BMC engines- or with Ford engines a 30% increase.

Edited by hatrat, 20 November 2011 - 18:03.


#97 bradbury west

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 20:47

I'm glad you understood my point, incidentally the pole lap in the Boxing Day race was achieved with approx 65bhp. ....A car with which I was intimately associated in 1959 when it had 65 brake was present at a commemoration in 2009, when it had circa 120 and that is supposed to be the same formula?


Just as today's FJs have 2.5" dia springs and multi adjustable dampers with adjustable spring platform, instead of the original 1.75" and non-adjustable Armstrongs, stamped with the month eg 5/61 like those on my 20 have.

Talking of the Richardson head, in the Sept 2011 Vintage Racecar Bobby Rahal writes in response to comments about his proposals for modern historic racing. He indicates that Ford Motor Co has committed to remanufacturing Kent and twin cam blocks, heads, valve covers etc. Surely it would only be a short step for them to recast 105E heads at a true low cost, if any race series organiser should be bold enough to specify these items as non-handicappable pre-requisites.
Roger Lund

#98 Sharman

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 21:28

Having looked at Ray's comments again I see that he has really supported my complaint. There was a diversity of engines available but when Ford and BMC began their money no object battle they, as I already said. destroyed a marvellous concept.

#99 David McKinney

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 22:45

I agree throwing money at FJ - as with any "cheap" forum - destroys the concept

However I suspect even a low-budget 105E engine would have outperformed the equivalent Fiat, DKW or Renault

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#100 hatrat

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 23:29

I agree throwing money at FJ - as with any "cheap" forum - destroys the concept


We need to be careful today that throwing money at modern FJ could end up destroying the current success of the class. The success of the class is in many cases it's own worst enemy. The more cars racing the more competitive it becomes and the more some owners want to be at the top - this sometimes leads to the bending of rules and the rumours of 10,000 pounds being spent on "developing" cylinder heads. The owners with true to concept cars end up looking as though they can't drive as they are whipped by cars that look the same but are inherently much faster - they soon get sick of all of this and disappear to other classes to have their fun.

However I suspect even a low-budget 105E engine would have outperformed the equivalent Fiat, DKW or Renault


In period, the Fiat engine was probably initially more developed followed by the BMC A Series engine. The 105E engine was relatively new on the scene and it took a while for development to get properly sorted. Once this happened the Ford 105E became to engine to have if you wanted to win in FJ (and if you really wanted to be top of the pile in late 1962 and 1963 then you needed one of the "special" Cosworth cylinder heads).