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Black 1989 Tyrrell 018 at San Marino ???


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#1 Amazin

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 17:44

Hi guys, this is my first post on TNF.

So here it is. I was looking at some photos on Forix and I just stumbled across this photo of a BLACK Tyrrell 018 at San Marino, 1989, being driven by Dr. Jonathan Palmer:
http://www.forix.com...02003_sibo_.jpg

I couldn't remember a black colored Tyrrell, so I looked for a Michele Alboreto photo from the same race, to see if his car was black painted too. It wasn't:
http://www.forix.com...2004_sibo_2.jpg

By comparing both photos, you can easily see that they're different cars, but when I checked on the driver's profile for the race, and they were using the same 018-type Tyrrell...
http://www.forix.com...5&r=8902004&c=0 = Michele
http://www.forix.com...5&r=8902003&c=0 = Jonathan

So what was that then ?


Amazin

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#2 cheesy poofs

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 17:57

Originally posted by Amazin

So here it is. I was looking at some photos on Forix and I just stumbled across this photo of a BLACK Tyrrell 018 at San Marino, 1989, being driven by Dr. Jonathan Palmer:
http://www.forix.com...02003_sibo_.jpg




That's actually the 1988 Tyrrell that Palmer is drving not the '89 car.

#3 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 17:58

Originally posted by cheesy poofs



That's actually the 1988 Tyrrell that Palmer is drving not the '89 car.


I think so too

#4 cheesy poofs

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 18:02

The 1988 Tyrrell or also the worst car I ever drove...by Julian Bailey :drunk:

#5 uechtel

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 18:10

I think they still used the old "017" still as a spare car at the early races?

#6 MaTT2799

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 18:24

Dr Palmer qualified the 017, then raced the 018. Michele attempted to qualify the new 018, but failed :). Hope that clears things up.

#7 Nikos Spagnol

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 18:27

I'd say that this picture was taken in 1988, or else in a pre-season testing, rather than at '89 San Marino GP (the one Gerhard Berger had the scare of his life...).

I don't think they would allow different livery (or no livery at all) on the same team. :rolleyes:

#8 Geza Sury

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 19:14

Originally posted by MaTT2799
Dr Palmer qualified the 017, then raced the 018. Michele attempted to qualify the new 018, but failed :). Hope that clears things up.

Actually the car was not the 017, but it's updated version the 017B. Alboreto had driven both the 017B and the new 018 during practices but had failed to qualify either of them. He set his better time with the new car, but even this wasn't good enough to get into the race.

#9 cheesy poofs

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 19:26

IIRC - The main difference with the 017B was a spacer between the engine and gearbox to lenghthen the wheelbase on the dreadful 017.

The 018 couldn't have been that bad since - 2 GP's later - Alboreto finished 3rd in Mexico.

#10 Don Capps

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 20:11

Originally posted by Nikos Spagnol
I don't think they would allow different livery (or no livery at all) on the same team. :rolleyes:


Nikos, That is a rule that only recently came into being and certainly was not in effect in the 1980's....

#11 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 20:16

I don't think they would allow different livery (or no livery at all) on the same team.


This regulation was not in force during this period, it was enforced about 10 years later (if you remember the BAR debacle)

As already stated, the 018 was not ready for the early races so the 017 or a development of it was used early on in '89. The 017 is black, because the it was the basic colours of the Courtaulds sponsored '88 car. The 019 is seen in 'house' Tyrrell livery.

Some 'Camel' sponsorship became prominent later on during 1989 on the 019, which car clearly a much better car than the 017, as Julian Baileys comment above states.

Alboreto did some good drives in the 018 as did a young French newcomer called Jean Alesi.

#12 cheesy poofs

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 20:25

OT - The Camel sponsorship deal with Tyrrell also meant the end of Alboreto's tenure with Ken's team as the italian was personally sponsored by Marlboro.

#13 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 20:44

Yes, Michele was too well-connected at Marlboro, and he left Tyrrell at least partly because of this.
But IIRC Alboreto later in the year drove for Larrousse, and they were also having Camel sponsorship.

#14 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 20:46

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Yes, Michele was too well-connected at Marlboro, and he left Tyrrell at least partly because of this.
But IIRC Alboreto later in the year drove for Larrousse, and they were also having Camel sponsorship.


Yes, that's what I thought. Still, I'm fairly sure that the official reason why Alboreto left Tyrrell was because they had Camel as their main sponsor. Maybe Marlboro tolerated the move to Larrousse because the Camel sponsorship wasn't as prominent on that car?

#15 ghinzani

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 02:22

I never understood that if the 017 was so bad why they did'nt revert to the 016. That was pretty quick, all things told. Altho I do recall them being for sale in Autosport, so maybe Uncle Ken had moved them on.

#16 Pacific22

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 03:46

Originally posted by Don Capps


“Down the years it has struck me countless times that no sport has so little regard for its heritage as motor racing. If you were to ask a contemporary F1 driver about, say, Jochen Rindt, the chances are you’d be met with a blank stare.” - Nigel Roebuck

Who the hell is Nigel Roebuck - blank stare

#17 Geza Sury

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 13:48

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
But IIRC Alboreto later in the year drove for Larrousse, and they were also having Camel sponsorship.

Yeah, and Larrousse was very promising car in 1989 but Philippe Alliot outshone the Grand Prix winner Alboreto on a number of occasions. Was Michele the only Grand Prix winner who had failed to pre-qualify for a Grand Prix?

BTW, I've just checked Alboreto's race record on Forix. Amazingly in 1992 he finished just outside the points in seventh position on six occasions, four of them in a row!

#18 byrkus

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 15:31

Was Michele the only Grand Prix winner who had failed to pre-qualify for a Grand Prix?


René Arnoux also failed twice on pre-qualifying (1978 Monaco & Germany).
But still; he managed to win LATER.

#19 cheesy poofs

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 15:40

Nelson Piquet

DNQ at Detroit 1982 :mad:
Race winner in Montreal at the very next race :smoking:

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#20 ghinzani

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 16:05

Originally posted by cheesy poofs
Nelson Piquet

DNQ at Detroit 1982 :mad:
Race winner in Montreal at the very next race :smoking:


DNPQ not NQ... but I get your point!

#21 cheesy poofs

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 16:16

Aaaah yes, DNPQ :blush:

#22 David M. Kane

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 16:19

Educate me, what is the difference between DNQ and DNPQ? I am not familiar with the term? Does it mean did not post a qualifying time because the car
definitely practiced, but I can't remember if it ran on Saturday or not.

I was at that race, and I vaguely remember them having a few dramas, etc.

Thanks for your patience.

#23 cheesy poofs

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 16:39

David,

Its something along thses lines... under the Concorde Agreement, no more than 30 - 31 cars were allowed to take part in official practice. Any other entries had to take part in a 60 minute timed session in order for them to make it to official practice. This session was usually held at 8:00 am on friday. For some, your weekend ended at 9:00 am :mad:
Some 39 cars were entered in 1989.

#24 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 16:46

DNPQ - Did Not Pre Qualify
DNQ - Did Not Qualify

#25 Don Capps

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 17:08

Originally posted by Pacific22
Who the hell is Nigel Roebuck - blank stare


Just some guy who writes for a car magazine and has been doing so for a few years....

#26 Ruairidh

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 17:27

Originally posted by Don Capps


Just some guy who writes for a car magazine and has been doing so for a few years....



Writes pretty well too (IMHO)

#27 ghinzani

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 19:29

Originally posted by cheesy poofs
David,

Its something along thses lines... under the Concorde Agreement, no more than 30 - 31 cars were allowed to take part in official practice. Any other entries had to take part in a 60 minute timed session in order for them to make it to official practice. This session was usually held at 8:00 am on friday. For some, your weekend ended at 9:00 am :mad:
Some 39 cars were entered in 1989.


What a pressure hour that was - I have alwyas held the beleif that qualifying should have been for how many vars the track could handle or they should have ran them one at a time and if it rained and a Mclaren or a Ferrai dnq'ed then so be it....

#28 Nikos Spagnol

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Posted 13 December 2002 - 18:55

Its something along thses lines... under the Concorde Agreement, no more than 30 - 31 cars were allowed to take part in official practice. Any other entries had to take part in a 60 minute timed session in order for them to make it to official practice. This session was usually held at 8:00 am on friday. For some, your weekend ended at 9:00 am


Don't mean to be pedantic, but just to make things clear: the best 26 entries (e.g. the best 13 teams of 2 cars, or 12 teams of 2 and 2 single-cars teams, or so) of the last half-season were automatically qualified, and the worst and rookie teams had to struggle for the remaining 4 spots of the qualifying.

As for Arlboreto, it seems that, on the first half of '89 season, his Lola wasn't on the top 13, so on the latter half they had to fight on pre-qualifying.

Pre-qualifying was on effect from '89 to '92, so Arlboretto remains as the only race winner to fail to make it to the propper qualifying.

#29 fines

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Posted 14 December 2002 - 08:39

Don't mean to be pedantic, but just to make things clear: the best 26 entries (e.g. the best 13 teams of 2 cars, or 12 teams of 2 and 2 single-cars teams, or so) of the last two half-seasons were automatically qualified, and the worst and rookie teams had to struggle for the remaining 4 spots of the qualifying.;)

#30 Nikos Spagnol

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Posted 15 December 2002 - 14:22

Don't mean to be pedantic again, Fines :blush:

But I'm sure that the pre-qualifying ranking was modified after the first 8 races of the season, and also at the beggining of the coming season. Don't know if they considered the results of the last 8 or 16 races, though.

#31 fines

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Posted 15 December 2002 - 16:31

Always 16 races, Nikos! :)

#32 ralt12

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Posted 23 December 2004 - 21:11

Originally posted by cheesy poofs
IIRC - The main difference with the 017B was a spacer between the engine and gearbox to lenghthen the wheelbase on the dreadful 017.

The 018 couldn't have been that bad since - 2 GP's later - Alboreto finished 3rd in Mexico.


The spacer was in use throughout the 1988 season on the 017 in 3, 5, and 8-inch lengths, and they settled on the 8-incher, which Palmer said was good for a second at Monaco. The primary difference between the 017 and the 017B was that the 017B used the 6-speed gearbox from the 018, instead of the 5-speed of the 017 (which also was hard on ring and pinion gears).

I suspect Bailey would have had a different opinion of the points-scoring 017 if he'd have had more time in it. All of the testing sheets I have show Palmer as the test driver as well.

The 017 in the picture looks like this today: http://nelson-motors...00-0055_IMG.JPG
(in 1988 livery, short wheelbase form)