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#1 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 19 December 2002 - 08:49

To all Russian visitors of TNF as well as to anybody else who has an information about the history of Soviet motorsport, Soviet F1 especially!

Let us unite our efforts in searching for the full results of Soviet racing! I know that there's a number of people performing searches for it, including Flicker, a member of this forum. But his web-page (http://www.motorworl...u/chUSSR-1.html) contains a very few pieces of information, as well as the http://ussr-autospor...ox.ru/index.htm which is based on the information obtained by myself. These pages need filling with information. Thus anyone who has an extra data regarding Soviet motorsport, please post it to this thread! Any new information will be credited!

Alexey Rogachev

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#2 Holger Merten

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Posted 19 December 2002 - 09:09

Thank you Alexey for the links.


Do we find anythingmore about the Sokol at this sites?

#3 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 19 December 2002 - 09:54

Holger,

First, an article revealing the brief history of Sokol-650 cars can be found at http://www.8w.forix.com. Second, I mentioned these cars in my e-mail to you - two Sokols 650 raced in 1952 Soviet championship, driven by Baranov & Kuznetsov, but both of them retired. After this, they were sent back to Germany - they're exhibited in Dresden now.

#4 Holger Merten

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Posted 19 December 2002 - 10:23

Alexey, thanks a lot for the 8w-site. I supported Brun in that article and some of teh interesting informations are from my archiv (so for the next part I'm proud to say I'm in the status of a co-author. So I thought you could help in any way to find out more about that car, which is in line of the tradition of the Auto Union Racing departament. (may you read my article on 8W).

And therefore I'm very interested in any information, espacially personality and history of the car between 1948 and 1960. When did the car came back from Russia to Germany? Did it go back to Chemnitz or Eisenach? And did it race only in russia?

#5 anjakub

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Posted 19 December 2002 - 18:35

Alexey,
Interesting, I am waiting for more and I try add a little.


The last years of soviet Formula 1.

Soviet Formula 1 - 1975

1. G. Dgebuadze (Estonia 16M) 2, 1, 1, 1
2. H. Saarm (Estonia 17 - GAZ) 1, 2, 2, 2
3. V. Kapscheyev (K2000) 3, 4, 2, 2
4. V. Zaslavskij (?) 0, 0, 3, 3
5. V. Tiagunenko (Estonia 16M - Moskvich) 6, 6, 6, 5
6. T. Zakharov (Estonia 16M - Moskvich) 0, 7, 5, 4

Points system: not available (places in race)

Rnd 1, 2 - Kiev 10-14 July 1975
Rnd 3, 4 - Riga 17-21 June 1975


Soviet Formula 1 - 1976

1. V. Grekov (Estonia 18)
2. E. Markovskij (Estonia 16M)
3. J. Tereneckij (Moskvich G5M)
4. G. Dgebuadze (Estonia 16M)
5. A. Savin (Estonia 16M)
6. L. Teesalu (Estonia 16M)

Rnd 1 and 2(?) - Riga 1-5 June 1976
Rnd 3 and 4(?) - Tallin 8-12 June 1976


Source: Za Rulem 1975, 1976

#6 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 20 December 2002 - 09:33

Anjakub,

Za Rulem has been my main source, too. Now it's almost exhausted, so I'm looking for an extra information in other books and magazines. BTW, I discovered a number of rather detailed results of Cup of Peace and Friendship, provided with the list of Latin transcriptions of Polish, Czech, Hungarian, and German names. :D

#7 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 27 December 2002 - 11:06

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Alexey, thanks a lot for the 8w-site. I supported Brun in that article and some of teh interesting informations are from my archiv (so for the next part I'm proud to say I'm in the status of a co-author. So I thought you could help in any way to find out more about that car, which is in line of the tradition of the Auto Union Racing departament. (may you read my article on 8W).

And therefore I'm very interested in any information, espacially personality and history of the car between 1948 and 1960. When did the car came back from Russia to Germany? Did it go back to Chemnitz or Eisenach? And did it race only in russia?


Holger,

I read your article at 8W which reveals the Sokol cars. It's really great! It is much more detailed than all what I've ever read about Sokols, including some articles in 'Za Rulem', 'Formula' magazines. Unfortunately, I don't know much about their life after 1952. Both Sokols were returned to Germany, but they never participated in a race. Vasiliy Stalin lost all his interest to motorsport and forgot his intention to run a racing team, and in March 1953, after Josef Stalin's death, he lost all his power as well. Two Sokols are said to be exhibited in Dresden, and in 1959 they were used in shooting a film about motorsport. This film was called 'Rivals at the Wheels' in the USSR, but it had another original name.

#8 Holger Merten

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Posted 27 December 2002 - 12:27

Yes Alexey, a dark chapter on motorsport.


As Brun wrote the article and I just assisted him, there are some details I may not agree:

I think the first Sokol was built earlier in 1948/49, may 1950 and not in 1952.

But I have to ask Brun, where he got the infos from, may my sources are not detailed enough.

Brun, can help out? :confused:

#9 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 27 December 2002 - 12:36

Holger, there were only two Sokol-650 cars, and there was no any other racing cars which were called so. The research of 650 model began in 1951, perhaps 1950, but not earlier! The group of German designers (I've forgotten its German name - it's very long and cumbersome as it is usual in German :) ) had been occupied by other works which hadn't concerned motorsport until they began to research Sokol.

#10 Holger Merten

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Posted 27 December 2002 - 13:28

Yes, I know two cars were built. I have a draft of the sokol from the design dept. which shows the design of the Typ 650, but with an EMW Logo. This draft is from 1949, the year the former AU-Technical dept. belongs to the SAG of BMW/EMW. And if the draft wasn't made AFTER the cars were built, is possible, that the cars are from the 50s.

#11 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 20 January 2003 - 07:55

A new piece of information which is concerning both F1 & Soviet motorsport. In 1969, the F3 race - Prix of Kalev sport society - was held in Tallinn. The second place in this race was taken by Leo Kinninen. As far as I know, it is the only time when the driver who raced in F1 participated in racing event in the Soviet Union.

#12 sat

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Posted 20 January 2003 - 20:15

Alexey can you add to this result of Tallin race:
1. - 2 - Titan Mk. 3-Ford - M. Lamminen /SF)
2. - Tecno-Ford - Leo Kinnunen /SF/
3. - Estonia 9M-Wartburg - Ji. Hange (spelling?) /SU/

thats all what I have

#13 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 21 January 2003 - 08:32

OK, Sat, this is precisely what I have on this race! :lol: I hadn't mentioned Lamminen & Hange as they never raced in F1. The results of this event are taken by mine from a 'Motorsport in the USSR' reference book by A. V. Kurzikauskas published in 1976. And what was your source?

#14 st59cz

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Posted 21 January 2003 - 09:33

The identical

#15 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 21 January 2003 - 11:31

:confused: :confused: :confused:

#16 st59cz

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Posted 21 January 2003 - 13:21

st59cz=sat

#17 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 22 January 2003 - 10:31

Originally posted by st59cz
st59cz=sat


A 'double member' of TNF - great, Sat or st59cz! :up:

You wanted to say by your 'the identical' that you've got this book, didn't you???

#18 sat

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Posted 22 January 2003 - 21:41

Yes I am a double member, becouse home and business computer (be quiet please). Yes I have this book.

#19 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 24 January 2003 - 12:02

And what's your opinion about it? I think it's not very detailed, but, at any rate, it's better than nothing as it contains some data on Cup of Peace and Friendship, Soviet motorsport championships, and, which is the best of this book, a list of Latin spellings of driver's names. If I had got this book when I was making my tables of Cup of Peace and Friendship race results, I wouldn't have done so many mistakes. Darren send me a complete list of them - I was astonished!!! :rolleyes:

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#20 st59cz

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Posted 24 January 2003 - 14:47

As it is only book I have seen (and only i own) about Soviet motorsport I must say is best I know.

#21 BlackCat

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Posted 24 January 2003 - 23:43

You guys may have the book but I saw that F3 race :)
Kinnunen was leading, but had some technical problem and had to let Lamminen by. Is it mentioned in the annals that the finns lapped all others at least twice? So the Soviet F3 and International F3 were two different kind of animals. And the difference was much bigger between real F1 and those cars called F1 in SU.

#22 sat

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 07:16

It is no doubt that was no comparison between west and east racing cars. All racing cars was based on technic from mass-produced car. And anaturally no mention about two laps difference too...

#23 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 30 January 2003 - 10:08

Yes, quite right. Soviet motorsport was always based on stock engines and home-made bodies. Now, I'm working at the detailed review of the 1960 Soviet championship - there was a group of sportscars there, based on outdated chassis and equipped with careless made bulky bodies. But the struggle for victory in this group was very intense!

#24 Figurino

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Posted 03 February 2003 - 08:35

Alexey et al:
Your worries must be over from now!
The results of the 10th Kalev TT (automobiles, F3)
1. Matti Lamminen (SF) Tecno-Cosworth 142,0 kph average (145,9 kph lap speed)
2.Leo Kinnunen (SF) Titan-Cosworth 138,3 kph (146,9 - record lap speed)
3.Ivo Hange Estonia 9M-Wartburg (USSR, an Estonian living in Leningrad)
4.Aleksey Sharnikov (USSR, Moscow)
5.Lev Savushkin (USSR, Leningrad)
6.Vladimir Zelenkov (USSR, Leningrad)
12 laps of 6000 m flat
Kinnunen setting the fastest (THE ABSOLUTE RECORD of Pirita circuit) average speed on lap 5.
s 15, f 6
I was at the race and really saw how all four remaining in the race soviets lost at least two laps or more each. And what you can do running 3pot Wartburgs against Cossies?!

#25 st59cz

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Posted 03 February 2003 - 09:06

:clap: :clap: :up:

...and what about others starters? What is meant with TT?

#26 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 03 February 2003 - 09:24

Originally posted by Figurino
Alexey et al:
I was at the race and really saw how all four remaining in the race soviets lost at least two laps or more each. And what you can do running 3pot Wartburgs against Cossies?!


Nothing! For instance, in 1970, Yuri Andreev won Soviet F1 championship easily, driving F3 de Sanctis Cosworth (991 cc). His rivals were driving Volga-powered (2445 cc) and Moskvich-powered (1.4 litre approximately) cars. A good proof of extremely low level of motorsport in the USSR!

#27 Figurino

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Posted 03 February 2003 - 09:27

Hello, st59cz
As I mentioned there were on the starting grid 15 men, 13 running Estonias.
Under the TT I meant Kalev Sport Club's 10th SuursƵit (Big Race), re-established in 1959.
Initially Estonian TT (Tourist Trophy) was launched in 1933, at the same Pirita circuit.

#28 Figurino

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Posted 03 February 2003 - 10:31

One more point to take in account. The Finns used real good Dunlop racing tyres, Estonias, too, were shod with these later on (CR65s, I remember) - but not yet in 1969! Real grip didn' t exist at the Kalev race for 13 men, including by far the fastest of them - works driver Enn Griffel. He was out due to his engine problems (if I can recall correctly).

#29 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 03 February 2003 - 12:22

Figurino,

Could you please tell me full names of E. Meesila (2nd in the 1960 Grand Prix of Tallinn - F3 class) and L. Korge (won that race in F1 class). Also do you know if Korge researched his 'Vana Toomas' single-seater taking an Auto Union Typ C as a model? And what was the engine that 'Vana Toomas' was eqippped with?

#30 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 12 February 2003 - 07:25

To Anjakub:

Andrzej, as far as I remember, you've been interested in the "Avtogonki v SSSR" thread of Russian motorsport forum. Now, a detailed review of the 1960 championship (in English) has been added to this thread.

#31 anjakub

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Posted 12 February 2003 - 17:57

Thanks Alexey,
I saw it early. Now, I'm waiting for next years.

#32 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 13 February 2003 - 08:10

Originally posted by anjakub
Thanks Alexey,
I saw it early. Now, I'm waiting for next years.


Andrzej,

Now, I only intend to start working at the review of the 1961 championship. I really haven't enough time as I'm going to defend my thesis in the university on Tuesday... and when it have been done, I'll start writing this review as fast as possible :)

#33 st59cz

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Posted 13 February 2003 - 09:14

"Avtogonki v SSSR" thread of Russian motorsport forum



Can you post the adress of thre forum?

#34 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 13 February 2003 - 09:22

http://www.formula-one.ru, then click on the "Forum" button.

#35 Vitesse2

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Posted 13 February 2003 - 10:03

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
http://www.formula-one.ru, then click on the "Forum" button.


http://www.formula-one.ru

without the comma tends to work better!

#36 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 08:33

A new conundrum of the early 1960s racing in the USSR! Now it is concerning the 1962 international race in Leningrad - its F. Junior heats to be more precise. Here is what I have got about them (overall results):
1. Heinz Melkus GDR Melkus-Wartburg
2. Antoni Weiner PL RAK-Wartburg
3. Hans-Theo Tegeler GDR Melkus-Wartburg
4. Peter Findeisen GDR Melkus-Wartburg (?)
Jerzy Jankowski PL RAK Wartburg (?)
Longin Bielak PL RAK Wartburg (?)
5. ?
6. Jankowski (?)
7. Wladyslaw Szulczewski PL RAK Wartburg (?)
Henri Saarm USSR ASK Moskvich (?)
8. ?
9. Evgeny Veretov USSR Moskvich-G3
10. Yakov Vartpatrikov USSR KVN-1300G Moskvich

You see that there are many question marks in these results. Can anyone fill the gaps with exact information instead of these objectionable marks?

#37 Darren Galpin

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 08:13

There was a race held at the Lyzhniki/Luzhniki Stadium for Russian Touring Cars a couple of weeks back. Does anyone know anything more about the circuit?

#38 kos

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 09:35

it was temporary track around Luzhniki's "Big Sporting Arena"
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#39 Darren Galpin

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 10:25

Thanks! Do you know how long it was?

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#40 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 10:39

Looks pretty hard on right hand tyres...

#41 kos

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 11:04

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
Thanks! Do you know how long it was?


Approx. 1.6 km

#42 petefenelon

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 11:21

Originally posted by kos


Approx. 1.6 km


Russia's answer to Mallory Park?;)

pete

#43 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 07:21

I can say that in the early 1960's, the length of Nevskoe Koltso circuit was 3,3 km approximately, then in 1970's it was 3,36 km. I don't think that now its length has been reduced more than two times...

BTW: my web-site about the autosport in the USSR has been opened - see homepage link.

#44 kos

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 07:26

Hi, Alexey! The track in question isn't Nevskoye Koltso. It is temporary track around BSA of Luzhniki, Moscow

#45 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 07:29

Oh, sorry! I meant Luzhniki when typing the first part of the reply, but... why did I think that it was Nevskoe Koltso? :confused: but anyway the Luzhniki curcuit was 3,2 km long in early 1960's...

#46 kos

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 07:46

I've got this 1.6 km from the post on auto.ru forum, the poster was there during the race, so I don't think that he could mistake 3.2 km circuit for 1.6 km one.

Also, that track from sixties used park lanes and Moskva-river embankment as part of the course, IIRC. This track is around stadium only

#47 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 07:51

Do you know anything about the Luzhniki track in the early 60's? If you do, please post it here! My data about its track length is based on the sole mentioning the 1961 Moscow championship race - 16 laps were 51 km long.

#48 Flicker

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 22:00

Alexey!

If You want - mail me (flicker@gp-sport.ru) and I explain how to get the old Luzhniki scheme and the results from the old soviet races.

#49 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 09:31

I've done it - waiting for the explanations you'd promised :clap:

#50 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 10:03

I've managed to find a map of the old Luzhniki circuit that was used in 1961-65 (3.2 km long). Here it is:

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