249 replies to this topic

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Pascal

What about the only way out, short of shutting down the website?

That is simply not true because even if Forix stays just as it is now, with no further updates, it will remain an extremely useful site and will cost its owner virtually nothing.

Hrvoje

[Eli]

Originally posted by Vrba


That is simply not true because even if Forix stays just as it is now, with no further updates, it will remain an extremely useful site and will cost its owner virtually nothing.

Hrvoje

Fortunately there are still people who think it's worth it to pay so the site continues to live in its current form.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Eli


Fortunately there are still people who think it's worth it to pay so the site continues to live in its current form.

Will there be enough of them?
Let's imagine Forix freezes now and becomes 1950-2002 stats site (plus everything else from earlier age that it offers). All new stats data can easily be compiled from many free news sites. Consequently, one who is willing can have all the infos for free.

Hrvoje

[Eli]

Ok, you don't want to pay. I get it.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Eli
Ok, you don't want to pay. I get it.

I expressed myself explicitly: I never paid for any site and don't have a slightest intention to do it in the future.

Hrvoje

[The Kanisteri]

Originally posted by Vrba


That is simply not true because even if Forix stays just as it is now, with no further updates, it will remain an extremely useful site and will cost its owner virtually nothing.

Hrvoje

I'm sure you also belong to people who thinks there's no need to have powerplants because electricity comes directly from plug sockets.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by The Kanisteri


I'm sure you also belong to people who thinks there's no need to have powerplants because electricity comes directly from plug sockets.

I belong to the people impossible to persuade that one must pay for something that for quite a while was for free.
Besides, you didn't present any argument against my claims. If a site was built out of enthusiasm and for enthusiasts, and its costs became too high, why not leave it as it is a valuable source of informations? Gale Force F1 did just that - why didn't they try to become pay-per-view site?

Hrvoje

[FW11B]

How many of those complaining actually have web pages themselves and if you do, how large or how popular are they? Until we find ourselves in a similar position we cannot really comment on the decisions of others to try to keep their sites running.

As for leaving it as it is, perhaps the people running them do not want their creation to stagnate or want to be associated with something that will be second rate ... I don't know.

[Vrba]

There's an interesting quote from Steve Gale of Gale Force F1 on his web site:

"The stats showed that the two sites were very different in nature. Atlas, features and news, was receiving pretty regular traffic each day, whereas GALE FORCE was peaking heavily during race weekends and quieter in the week. We did discuss in length the possibility of combining the two sites, but in the end I voted against it. Atlas was obviously looking to become a business , whereas GALE FORCE F1 was my personal site which I was very keen to keep 100% control of."

So it's more than obvious that pay-per-view isn't the only way. In fact, in the whole (long) story about his site, Steve never mentions this as a possibility.

Hrvoje

[StickShift]

uh huh.

Please tell me, is Gale Force F1 still alive or have you just fallen off the earth for the past year?

[Vrba]

Originally posted by StickShift
uh huh.

Please tell me, is Gale Force F1 still alive or have you just fallen off the earth for the past year?

Gale Force F1 closed for updates about a year ago but everything up to then is still online, accessible and very useful. And it's much more useful to me in this form than as a pay-per-view site.

Hrvoje

[Pascal]

Originally posted by Vrba

Gale Force F1 closed for updates about a year ago but everything up to then is still online, accessible and very useful.

Allow me to remind you that Steve Gale owns an ISP, and therefore doesn't really have to worry about hosting costs, whether he updates his site or not. Besides, reading yesterday's newspaper might be fine for a while, but sooner or later you will wish to have current news and analysis.

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by Vrba
I expressed myself explicitly: I never paid for any site and don't have a slightest intention to do it in the future.
Hrvoje

What is the difference with paying for a site compared to paying for anything else, like a movie or food or whatever? Of course, if you can find the same material somewhere else for free, don't pay, I wouldn't do either. But if good sites are built on subscriber models and therefore can provide excellent content, what is wrong with that? Don't limit yourself to saying you will never pay for a site in the future. You will probably miss a lot of really good stuff.

[Nikolas Garth]

Hey wait a sec guys, maybe Vrba is right.

All Atlas and Forix have to do is find a team of people like this guy, and all their financial problems will be a thing of the past.

[holiday]

Vrba,

you hit more than once right on the spot.

Let's imagine Forix freezes now and becomes 1950-2002 stats site (plus everything else from earlier age that it offers). All new stats data can easily be compiled from many free news sites. Consequently, one who is willing can have all the infos for free.

If a site was built out of enthusiasm and for enthusiasts, and its costs became too high, why not leave it as it is a valuable source of informations? Gale Force F1 did just that - why didn't they try to become pay-per-view site?

I can live with the fact that Forix is soon taken from the free net but don't give us - us, that is the OVERwhelming mass of internet users will be denied access very soon - that hypocrisy, don't dare it; just say, you want to make your living, which would be perfectly okay - but NOT with that self-righteous saviour gloriole.

[Marcel Schot]

Originally posted by holiday
I can live with the fact that Forix is soon taken from the free net but don't give us - us, that is the OVERwhelming mass of internet users will be denied access very soon - that hypocrisy

That's not hypocrisy, that's betraying those who do pay. Imagine you go to a restaurant. You have a great dinner and just after you've payed the bill, you notice that the guy next to you doesn't have to pay. How would you feel?

I find it strange that some people here appear to think they have a right to access past data for free. Based on what? I have an ISP that annually raises its subscription rate quite a lot (nearly 40% over the past 4 years). I see they're improving the quality of their service. Sometimes in fields where I need it, sometimes in fields I don't need. I figure that goes for pretty much every ISP in the world. Yet I don't see anyone saying "hey, you raised the subscription rate by $7, but I don't use the online gaming facilities so I'll remain on my old subscription level". Everybody would regard that as ridiculous.

you want to make your living, which would be perfectly okay - but NOT with that self-righteous saviour gloriole.

You have no idea what's going on financially at Atlas and Forix, right? Please don't make any judgements on things you don't know the details about, OK? Frankly, the fact that people judge about things this way deeply sadens me.

[Pascal]

Originally posted by holiday

I can live with the fact that Forix is soon taken from the free net but don't give us - us, that is the OVERwhelming mass of internet users will be denied access very soon - that hypocrisy, don't dare it; just say, you want to make your living, which would be perfectly okay - but NOT with that self-righteous saviour gloriole.

Are you done?

I am sorry, but even if I understand perfectly well that you might be upset to see a free ressource go away, you seem to ignore the fact that Forix's owner didn't feel he could go on under the current format. What Atlas did was to offer him an option, and that's the one he favoured in order to keep the site alive and not simply some sort of monument to the Internet early days when people where ready to invest huge amounts of time and money with nothing in return.

A few years ago, many of my friends were left puzzled at my apparent disdain for dot-coms, at a time these companies seemed to be all the rage. The thing is that I never understood how they could make economical sense. I'm not even talking about making a profit, but merely breaking even. The fact is that a majority could not, leaving a lot of careless investors with a bloody nose and shattered illusions when the bubble exploded. Let's face it, a lot more sites will either disappear very soon, or change their business model in order to survive. You may still believe that the Internet is a place where people can make a lot of money, but bar a few exceptions, it is mostly a cash-sucking beast, and we can only be happy that the owners of Atlas were willing to spend so much of their own money to keep the show going until circumstances forced them to reassess the way they were providing their service, just in order to keep doing so. The same thing simply happened with Forix...

[holiday]

Originally posted by Pascal
Let's face it, a lot more sites will either disappear very soon, or change their business model in order to survive.

If this is going to be the case, your site will probably be the first to feel it, since I presume that the supply of motorsport subscription sites will rise faster than the user demand for them. Then you will have to quarrel with some other competitors for these kinds of selfless acquisition acts. I am looking forward to hear all the spin doctoring then coming up.

Now I am done.

[Pascal]

Originally posted by holiday

If this is going to be the case, your site will probably be the first to feel it, since I presume that the supply of motorsport subscription sites will rise faster than the user demand for them. Then you will have to quarrel with some other competitors for these kinds of selfless acquisition acts. I am looking forward to hear all the spin doctoring then coming up.

But you conveniently forget that Atlas has been a subscription website for over a year and a half now, and that its renewal rate is pretty high. So in order to lure subscribers away, the new sites will have to offer something unique, and/or a much higher level of quality than Atlas F1. Call me optimistic, but I don't see that happening in the near future. Besides, your example only acknowledges the fact that the internet has become a marketplace like any other, and for better or for worse, nothing comes trully for free anymore.

As for the "spin doctoring", don't hold your expectations too high. My feeling is that according to you, the Atlas F1 team should actually apologise for helping Forix to keep updating its service as we know it now at the price of going subscription, and failure to provide this apology automatically rates as "spin doctoring". That would suppose that the people behind Atlas F1 or Forix actually do owe you something, and given the fact that you have enjoyed their service for free and for a long time, allow me to personally see that as the other way around.

[Ross Stonefeld]

You also forget that atlas develops original content. You guys hate this so much, why do you keep coming here?

[CDNgrl]

I think we should let this go, and end the debate. We are not changing anyone's mind.

Some people are against it 100%. I personally thinking that knocking Atlas in the process is knocking something without any knowledge if you are not a subscriber. How could you know what you are missing and what you are getting for your money if you don't see what is there.

It's a philosophy. I say let it die.

[StickShift]

Originally posted by CDNgrl
I think we should let this go, and end the debate. We are not changing anyone's mind.

Some people are against it 100%. I personally thinking that knocking Atlas in the process is knocking something without any knowledge if you are not a subscriber. How could you know what you are missing and what you are getting for your money if you don't see what is there.

It's a philosophy. I say let it die.

amen.

[unofficialf3000]

I can't comment on Atlas, not being a member, but I'm very disappointed in FORIX becoming pay-per-view. I'm 100% with those who say they will NEVER pay for internet services. As it is, the £13.99 per month simply to connect to my ISP is a significant monthly bill on my meagre wage. No argument could convince me that we should be perfectly happy to see a previously free source of information suddenly become pay-per-view.

[JR]

Originally posted by unofficialf3000
I can't comment on Atlas, not being a member, but I'm very disappointed in FORIX becoming pay-per-view. I'm 100% with those who say they will NEVER pay for internet services. As it is, the £13.99 per month simply to connect to my ISP is a significant monthly bill on my meagre wage. No argument could convince me that we should be perfectly happy to see a previously free source of information suddenly become pay-per-view.

You pay to buy a paper, pay to buy a magazine, you pay for your shower gel, shampoo, doughnut, burger, you pay money for whatever form of transport you use, you paid money for that computer, you may even pay money for cigarettes or booze which is not absolutely neccesary - and if you haven't then you've probably still paid for candy bars that are full of sugar.

Why should people who publish on the internet have to make their product free for your benefit? Just because it was free before does not mean that there is an bottomless money pit that is there to maintain the upkeep of a server and the huge costs that relate to bandwidth used.

If you can't afford to access the information that sucks, but you shouldn't have such a mean and selfish view that you are some how entitled to get everything for free at the expense of those who work hard to bring you sites such as Forix.

And if you still don't like it and think that people are entitled to a free service like Forix with the amount of information that it contains then why don't you set up your own freely accessible internet site and use all your free hours to enter 50 years worth of F1 statistics into a database.

[Vitesse2]

Over the years, I've amassed a pretty good racing library. Recently I've acquired long runs of Motor Sport and Classic & Sports Car and completed the first six volumes of Sheldon's Black Books - overall in the past ten years I've probably spent at least £1000 on these and other books. $36 for a year of Atlas and Forix is peanuts compared to that - I wouldn't expect to get the information that's on my bookshelves for free, so why should internet resources of this type be free? Yes, I give my time and share my knowledge freely on TNF, but that's MY CHOICE - I don't have to do it.

By buying Paul Sheldon's earlier books, I contributed to the continuation of the series - a labour of love, if ever there was one.

As Pascal has pointed out, the dotcom bubble has burst, but there's still an awful lot of heartache to come there - many more sites will go under and lots of people will lose lots of money. Fools rush in ....

Vrba (and others) - yes, I'd love to see free information on the net, just like there are free libraries. But who pays for the "free" libraries? Think about it ........

[Schuting Star]

Originally posted by unofficialf3000
No argument could convince me that we should be perfectly happy to see a previously free source of information suddenly become pay-per-view.

My view is simply that the source of info may be free to you but it isn't to the supplier. Perhaps you would like to set up a similar site, keep it up to date and accurate and see how long you last?

I've extended my subscription and I was pleased to do so. Forix gives me information that I want in a neat and straightforward form. It's worth every penny.

[rdrcr]

For those nattering neighbobs of negativity...

You post liberally and often on the AtlasF1 BB's... yes? If Atlas goes away because of its inability to make a profit (in part by the subscription service) you will then complain to whom?

Or, if you have a better business model, I'm sure Bira and Paul would love to take a look at it. So put together some numbers in Excel and email them with a better plan.

If all you have is lip service disguised as a well placed opinion, I suggest you hold your tongue or better yet, just leave. I'd think that administration of 20 or 30 people who don't pay for the subscription service wouldn't be missed very much.

[bira]

Ding Dong, the witch is back

Where to start... sheesh.

1) Atlas F1 is a business, and a privately owned one. What we do with our business - what kind of product we offer, at what price or for free, who we employ, how much we spend - all that is OUR business and OURS only. Anyone here who thinks I should offer any kind of apology or reasoning to why I run MY business the way I do, can go start his/her own business or just zip it. I'm not interested in your whining. Unless...

2) Atlas F1 owes its allegiance ONLY to its subscribers. We offer a specific service to our clients and our primary goal is to do our best FOR THEM. We owe NOTHING to those who are not our clients. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Squat. Null. NAAAaaaaaathing.

So when FORIX came to us for assistance, I had two goals in mind, IN THIS ORDER:

a) making sure MY CLIENTS gain from it;
b) making sure FORIX survives.

If anyone owes me anything; if I am "saving" anything, it's FORIX and Joao - not you Holliday. If someone should say thank you, it's Joao. Not you, Holliday. And what happens between me and Joao, is OUR BUSINESS. Not yours, Holliday. Unless....

3) FORIX has many people who have used it extensively over the years and appreciate the quality of service and the potential it holds. Those who love and need FORIX would not want it to deteriorite or close down or freeze. They would want it to exist as it does now and improve even more. And among them, there may be some who may feel that $12 a year - $1 a month - 3 cents a day - is not something they cannot afford for a service as such.

Obviously, Holliday and Vrba are not among those who feel this way.

And this is where I want to make it plainly clear: THAT IS THEIR BUSINESS.

I cannot believe some people here expect me to apologise for charging money to what is essentially hard and expensive work. Likewise, I cannot believe some people here expect others to apologise - or even rationalise - their decision not to pay for a product!

I don't subscribe to Autosport. And I see no reason to apologise nor explain it. I do subscribe to britannica.com, and I see no reason to apologise nor explain that choice either.

We can argue about communism, socialism, capitalism, Internet History (which most here ridiculously have completely wrong), etc - we can argue all about that. But the bottom line remains that this is a free market: a market where people and companies have the right to decide what to sell and consumers have a right to decide what to buy (and what not to buy).

So don't look for apologies here nor bother providing them; and move on.

[nigel5]

Why just a price in Dollars and not in Euros !!! ...


I won't be able to afford it.

So, I hope an offer in EUROS

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by nigel5


Why just a price in Dollars and not in Euros !!! ...


I won't be able to afford it.

So, I hope an offer in EUROS

The Swedish "krona" is stronger than for a long time against $ so I am very happy!

Took the opportunity to prolong my subscription for another year, excellent!

The £ is too expensive, bye bye F1 Racing.

[bira]

nigel5 you must be joking? The euro is stronger than the dollar

$36 USD = 34.03 euro;
$12 USD = 11.34 euro....

[ffiloseta]

vrba: Please don't take this as a provocation, but in your profile you state that you are a web developer. Do you work for a company that makes money out of the web, or do you develop for intraconsuming ? If the first, where does the money they pay you come from ?

Or if you are a freelancer, do you work for free ? Or is it that you don't accept work from pay sites ?

In a nutshell, who gives you money in exchange for your services as web developer ?

[Keith Steele]

Btw, where is Forix? I just signed up today and the site isnt opening. Its fowarding to a new page then 404 Not found. www.forix.com

[Vrba]

Originally posted by ffiloseta
vrba: Please don't take this as a provocation, but in your profile you state that you are a web developer. Do you work for a company that makes money out of the web, or do you develop for intraconsuming ? If the first, where does the money they pay you come from ?

Or if you are a freelancer, do you work for free ? Or is it that you don't accept work from pay sites ?

In a nutshell, who gives you money in exchange for your services as web developer ?

Of course I won't take it as a provocation.
I work full time developing my company's public web site, our intranet and business web applications and, as well, restricted access partners web site. My company is hardware/software distributor. We do host web sites and theoretically I'm open to do anyone's site (for money, yes) but as it's not an important part of our business, we barely advertise it.
Therefore, my (personal) money comes from my company from what is made by selling hardware and software.
Of course, I see your point.
And I am prepared to admit that maybe my attitude comes from the fact that, in my life, I never enjoyed free magazines or free food or gasoline or travel but, since my first contacts with it, I have enjoyed free Internet and got used to it. But my attitude is that we are robbed every time when we buy anything and must fight to get everything we can for free or as cheap as possible.

Hrvoje

[Viktor]

Originally posted by Vrba
...
But my attitude is that we are robbed every time when we buy anything and must fight to get everything we can for free or as cheap as possible.
Hrvoje

I dont think you can get this much (and good) F1 information for less then $36/year anywhere in the world! It is "as cheap as possible" as it is right now.

/Viktor

[Jimmino]

Originally posted by Keith Steele
Btw, where is Forix? I just signed up today and the site isnt opening. Its fowarding to a new page then 404 Not found. www.forix.com

The same problem.
I still don´t know how to connect to FORIX. Through AtlasF1 or directly to Forix using username and password from Atlas? Links to FORIX from Atlas doesn´t work.
Anybody know? Also how to get to the proper language of Forix.

[ffiloseta]

vrba: I see. Balance is good.

[Bjorn]

Forix not working for me either :

[Viktor]

Forix works for me with my AtlasF1 username and password and its faster then ever before

/Viktor

[Mickey]

For whoever Forix doesn't work, try this link.

http://207.168.2.174:82/index.html

[bira]

Bjorn: what seems to be the problem for you?

[Ursus]

Question: If change my personal details, password etc. at Forix will it also change the details for AtlasF1?

[Bjorn]

ERROR


The requested URL could not be retrieved


While trying to retrieve the URL: http://207.168.2.174:82/index.html


The following error was encountered:

Access Denied.

Access control configuration prevents your request from being allowed at this time. Please contact your service provider if you feel this is incorrect.

Humm... could this have to do with the port thingy there on the end (:82)? I can connect to the site if I strip that off, but there's nothing there :

[Viktor]

Your firewall is proberly set to not connect to any sites on other ports the 80. If you have access to your firewall you can open port 82 and it will proberly work

/Viktor

[bira]

Originally posted by Ursus
Question: If change my personal details, password etc. at Forix will it also change the details for AtlasF1?

Yes

[Bjorn]

afaik I don't. I'm connected over LAN through the university, so they must be in charge of all that stuff, aye?

Seriously though I have no idea Any way to get around that, or will I have to send a pwetty pweeze message to the webmasters?

[bira]

Bjorn, it's more than likely your university blocks non-80 ports.

Just wait a little bit - in just a few hours the www.forix.com dns will propagate and you won't have find any work around

[Bjorn]

Yep, working now

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Viktor
Forix works for me with my AtlasF1 username and password and its faster then ever before

/Viktor

The other positive angle of charging for the site . . . number of users reduced by 99%!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Sounds like we should make the BB pay as well ;)