34 replies to this topic

[ettiwed]

Who have more info of :

30 may1937 BUCURESTI GP ROMANIA

1.Ruesch – Alfa Romeo
2.Jean Calcianu - 15’
3.
4.
5.
6.





25 juni 1939 BUCURESTI GP ROMANIA

1 . Stuck –Auto Union
2. Cristea – BWM 328 2l sport
3.
4.
5.

see also
www.retromobil.ro

[Vitesse2]

All I can add is that Calcianu drove a Duesenberg-engined special in 1937. Monkhouse/King-Farlow quotes 82 miles for both races and a winning speed of 65.6mph for Ruesch in 1937.

Interesting pictures on that site Ettiwed, including two which appear genuine of the 1937 race - at least four starters, it would seem! Ruesch's car is clearly numbered 1 - anyone care to hazard a guess as to the #2 car?

The Auto Union pic is a hillclimb though, not the 39 race as seems to be implied. It's Stuck at the Grossglockner in 1938.

However, this appears to also uncover a previous race! There's a programme cover for an event on November 1st 1936.

http://www.retromobi...c/photodoc.html

[Vitesse2]

Aha! Not a special, but apparently a GENUINE 1930 straight eight Duesenberg racer, imported into Romania in 1932 and now in the Dimitrie Leonida Technical Museum in Bucharest:



http://www.retromobi.../tehnic/teh.htm

[O Volante]

Vitesse2, at a first glance I would think #2 is an 8CM Maserati ... Lazlo Hartmann perhaps?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by O Volante
Vitesse2, at a first glance I would think #2 is an 8CM Maserati ... Lazlo Hartmann perhaps?

Yes, I'd agree it's an 8CM. I don't think it's Hartmann's car though.

Here's why!

Originally posted by Geza Sury
Here's a nice shot about Hartmann and his Maserarti in his garage. If you're wondering what the words in the background 'Tilos a dohanyzas' mean, well it only means 'No smoking.'

As to the Duesy - here's one in the Auburn-Cord Museum (in somewhat better nick and without the rather agricultural mods to the exhaust). Looks pretty much identical.

[Doug Nye]

Isn't this Rumanian 'Duesenberg' the sister ex-Indy 'Wonderbread Special' built by 'Skinny' Clemons and run by him with help from Augie Duesenberg???? This was a sister to the Junk Formula car now owned by the Jaguar colletorinFloridawhosenamedammitIcannotrecallrightnow.... ...ex-airline pilot...and a half-sister to the genuinely Duesenberg-chassised single-seater which went to the Scuderia Ferrari/Count Trossi, then came to Brooklands for Straight/Duller etc and was preserved for decades by Jenks. This single-seater is now in the Brooklands Museum and a runnable 'Clemons' engine is being prepared for it.

DCN

[ettiwed]

1937 35 laps 80.47 m

1. Ruesch 1h15.28 63.69 mph
2. Calcianu 1h29.36


fastest lap : Ruesch 2.06 65.87 m

[Marcor]

Roumanie (Bucarest), 25 June 1939
1- Stuck (Auto Union) 49' 27"
2- Cristea (BMW 328 2L) 51' 13"

30 laps

Also a sport race (20 laps), same week-end
1- Heinemann (BMW 328 2L)
2- Kunz (BMW)
3- Calcianu (Ford)

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Isn't this Rumanian 'Duesenberg' the sister ex-Indy 'Wonderbread Special' built by 'Skinny' Clemons and run by him with help from Augie Duesenberg???? This was a sister to the Junk Formula car now owned by the Jaguar colletorinFloridawhosenamedammitIcannotrecallrightnow.... ...ex-airline pilot...and a half-sister to the genuinely Duesenberg-chassised single-seater which went to the Scuderia Ferrari/Count Trossi, then came to Brooklands for Straight/Duller etc and was preserved for decades by Jenks. This single-seater is now in the Brooklands Museum and a runnable 'Clemons' engine is being prepared for it.

DCN

Doug, I'm not clear whether you're saying you think this car is the Wonderbread Special, or a sister to it? Obviously, trying to decipher the Romanian text is difficult, but it looks to me to say that this car was in Romania in 1932 - Don Radbruch tells me that the (or a?) Wonderbread Special ran in qualifying at Indy in 1933. And one or more Wonderbreads seem to exist in the US, possibly in Florida and/or New Hampshire.

[dmj]

Another thread where Raffaelli's book can give a new insight: when describing his efforts to buy a Mercedes W163 from Joska Roman. That fireman from Cluj, Romania had that car for some 25 years and he apparently stole it in 1945 from a train that carried war reparations from Germany to Russia. According to his story a friend and him took a few cars from same train, including a W158, Alfa Romeo P3, a Maserati and – hear – a Duesenberg special! Raffaelli states that Duesie was still in Romania while writing book in early ‘90s and that he dreams to return there one day and buy it. Now, is it the same car as in Richard’s picture? Or there were/are more Duesenberg specials in Romania. Did Roman just make up the train story, hiding some other dubious way how he got the cars? But Duesie supposed to belong not to him but to his friend? And what became of other cars mentioned? W163 was eventually sold to West while W158 was dismantled after an accident but complete in Roman’s house. What became of it?

[O Volante]

... for another short background text on Romanian motorsport, see: http://autoturism.rdslink.ro/ist.htm
I'm not sure if this one has already been mentined ...

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by O Volante
... for another short background text on Romanian motorsport, see: http://autoturism.rdslink.ro/ist.htm
I'm not sure if this one has already been mentined ...

Hmmm .... nice! Interesting picture too: Bucharest race in 1948 ....



And what was Hans Stuck doing in Romania in 1940?

[Mihai]

I made some research regarding the presumptive Maserati 8CM. Not much, in fact it’s just a bit more than nothing. The 1979 yearbook of the ACR (our ANWB) celebrated 75 years from its birth and it is mentioning about motorsports in all those years. It says that Romanian racer Iorgu Ghica bought László Hartmann’s 8C-3000 (220 HP @ 5500 rpm) shortly after his fatal accident in Tripoli (15/05/1938). It also says that in 1946, the Romanian Motorsport governing body (FRAM back then) found this baby in Câmpulung-Muscel and returned it to racing. After a long restoration, attempted by a rich driver called Stefan Bodnarenco, Jean Calcianu drove it to success in the following years. So, Calcianu definitely drove one in post-war years. But what about 1937 ?

Perhaps O Volante made a wild guess and the no2 car is László the man himself (unless he was driving somewhere else that day, I still have to check on Leif’s website).

Or the no2 car is in fact an Alfa 8C 2600 and it makes perfect sense because Calcianu drove an ex-Nuvolari Alfa 8C 2600 Monza (the car who won in Monaco GP and Targa Florio). Calcianu really established himself as a top-class racing driver with this particular car, I have lots of history, if you’re interested.

[Jonas]

Originally posted by Mihai
Or the no2 car is in fact an Alfa 8C 2600

I'm pretty sure that it's NOT a Monza Alfa Romeo. It sure looks like a Maserati to me too..

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Mihai
Calcianu drove an ex-Nuvolari Alfa 8C 2600 Monza (the car who won in Monaco GP and Targa Florio). Calcianu really established himself as a top-class racing driver with this particular car, I have lots of history, if you’re interested.

Yes please

[Vitesse2]

I don't think it can be anything except an 8CM: but it's very unlikely to be Hartmann's - see the picture above, which shows that it carried the then Hungarian national racing colours.

The danger here is that we seem to be working purely from secondary sources - Mihai's 1979 yearbook, for all its usefulness, is 40 years removed from the action and we are unsure of King-Farlow's source and/or accuracy: he seems to be the root of everything else posted above! Chances are he's taken it from some brief mention in a British source, who in turn would probably have got it from Switzerland, Italy or France, who got it who knows where?

Mihai: are there any original sources you could access - daily or weekly newspaper archives? Was there a specialist sports newspaper in Romania in the 30s?

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by dmj
Another thread where Raffaelli's book can give a new insight: when describing his efforts to buy a Mercedes W163 from Joska Roman. That fireman from Cluj, Romania had that car for some 25 years and he apparently stole it in 1945 from a train that carried war reparations from Germany to Russia...etc etc

I can't go into very much detail here but Hungarian born Jozsef 'Joska' Roman - b. Budapest 1907 - grew up in Cluj Nepoca, Rumania, where he became an accomplished motor mechanic. Immediately postwar he was relatively well-known within Rumania as a competition motor-cylist and apparently also an occasional driver in hill-climbs.

According to his son Tibor - born 1933 in Cluj - 'Joska' learned in about 1950-51 - not earlier - of two old German racing cars which had been consigned to scrap near the Black Sea port of Costanza.

He then found these two Mercedes-Benz W154/39 cars in a scrapyard at the town of Braila, just inland from the coast but adjacent to a main railway line linking routes to the central European countries and the Black Sea coast. Tibor Roman's account is that "During the war a Russian general wanted to take the cars to Russia but they were left there and they were dumped in this place. It was a scrap metal yard – melting and re-using all types of metal". I'm not entirely convinced that 'the Russian general' part of this story stacks up...

What does stack up is that - having probably greased some palms in Braila to stay the twin Mercedes' execution - 'Joska' Roman went to Bucharest. There he parlayed the Rumanian Ministry of Culture, Physical Education and Sport into providing him with authority to remove the cars on behalf of the Cluj Railways Sports Club, which then helped him house the cars while he began work - at his own expense - to restore, and ultimately run them. He did indeed succeed in getting one of them running but promptly rolled it over in the local hill-climb, hurting both himself and the car.

Crucial established dates seem to be 1951 - which is when Roman bore the two cars in triumph back to Cluj - and 1965 by which time he had had his accident in one of them. Thus far I'm at a loss to establish when he actually ran the one car and shunted it, but I feel it was more likely to have been in the early '60s rather than in the 1950s.

It's an interesting backwater...

DCN

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Mihai
Romanian racer Iorgu Ghica bought László Hartmann’s 8C-3000 (220 HP @ 5500 rpm) shortly after his fatal accident in Tripoli (15/05/1938)

How does this square with Ghica racing the car in 1936?
http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=43701 (post 15)
Or was that another Maserati?

[O Volante]

Mihai,
the same questions from me!

Plus a few remarks on the relevant Hartmann Maseratis, without reference to my notes and books, but ...

It is clear Hartmann raced an 8CM in 1935. A picture in the Chimay book shows this to be one of the narrow chassis cars; I seem to remember a second picture of the combination in Cimarosti's Swiss GP book.

It is not so clear what Masers he raced in 1936. Definitely he had a 6CM, but apparently also raced a big car. According to some sources, this was still the 8CM, to others, a the 6C-34 - or both? Anyway, according to common knowledge, this 6C-34 was purchased by Paul Pietsch for the 1937 season etc. The car is thought to have been destroyed in Pietsch's crash at Brno; the engine was taken out and used post-war in the Westenrieder Maserati. Surely I'm not the only one who has identified the Pietsch 6C-34 as the car sold by the Maserati works to Nicola Borelli in September 1935. But back to Hartmann - unfortunately, I have not seen a picture of him in "his" 6C-34, neither in 1935, nor 1936 or 1937!

After 1937, there was one 6CM (or more?), plus the converted 6CM with 2.5 4C engine; 8CMs or 6C-34s are not mentioned anymore. So ...

[Mihai]

Reading a history of the Sinaia hillclimb race, I found that the same Iorgu Ghica (also known al George Ghica) won it in 1936 in a Maserati. In 1938, another driver, Mihai Sontag, was the top drivers in a Maserati. I have a picture of Sontag driving the Maserati in that particular hillclimb race, but I have to beg someone to scan it for me.

Also, time is ticking away for me in a Net Cafe in Bucharest. I'll be back on you tomorrow with Jean Calcianu winning the 1939 Belgrade GP in his Alfa 2600.

O Volante, do I know you from FORIX? If not, did you saw the Portuguese version of my website ?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Mihai
Reading a history of the Sinaia hillclimb race, I found that the same Iorgu Ghica (also known al George Ghica) won it in 1936 in a Maserati. In 1938, another driver, Mihai Sontag, was the top drivers in a Maserati. I have a picture of Sontag driving the Maserati in that particular hillclimb race, but I have to beg someone to scan it for me.

I believe I can hear sounds of excitement from the direction of Hawaii ....

[Mihai]

All the people in Romania are awarding Petre Cristea the title for the best ever Romanian driver. Of course, the victory of the 1936 Monte Carlo Rallye is unquestionably the highlight of the Romanian motorsport and will remain so for many years to come. But I would say that Jean Calcianu was the greatest ever. He was a man ahead of his time: a very fast driver, an ever better mechanic, a cultivated man full of charisma (something that Cristea hadn’t). Ettore Bugatti praised Calcianu both as a driver and as a mechanic. Having a French racing license, in 1928 he set the international record of the launched km at Miramas in a Bugatti 37, averaging 173,6 kph. The only the other Romanian racer to have a French racing license was Matei Ghica who also set some world records at Monthléry the same year. In 1930, Calcianu returned to Romania from France and he was the man who really jumpstarted motor racing in this country, making possible an amazing number of international successes for an activity who was underfinanced and relatively new.

The car was in poor condition and the fact that the car waited two years in customs, due to bureaucracy and formalities that are still reigning today this God damned country wasn’t at all helpful for him. Only a magician like him could bring this car to life again. Technical: 2600 cc, straight-eight, dohc, supercharged, 180 bhp @ 5600, weight 920 kg, top speed 225 kph. All my Romanian written sources are mentioning a 2.6 litre engine for this car. But the book I have from the Tazio Nuvolari Museum says the car that the ‘Flying Mantuan’ drove to victory in Monaco was a 2.3 litre. It must be the fact that my 1979 ACR yearbook says the car was model 1933, while the wins in Monaco GP and the Targa Florio were obtained in 1932. However, it probably was an ex-Nuvolari car.

In both pre-war and post-war events, Calcianu was the main contender in this car (before the Alfa he was more a Bugatti man and he also drove a Hotchkiss sports car – picture available), but the result that established him was a surprise victory in the 1939 Belgrade GP. He represented the Royal Motor Club of Romania but him and his team-mate Theo Kunz (BMW 2 l) were there on their own expenses. Nuvolari was there to congratulate Calcianu that day, says one of his mechanics (Delly Crasnaru) in an article. But Calcianu’s victory generated outrage from the German journalists who wrote in ‘Motor und Sport’ the following text: . It was inconceivable for a relatively unknown Romanian driver to defeat the BMW entries. And so the great man was renamed and given the Italian nationality.

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Mihai
. . . the car waited two years in customs, due to bureaucracy and formalities . . .

That would rather tend to dampen one's enthusiasm. I'm amazed he persisted in trying to get the car into the country - lesser mortals would have given up, I think.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Mihai
Reading a history of the Sinaia hillclimb race, I found that the same Iorgu Ghica (also known al George Ghica) won it in 1936 in a Maserati. In 1938, another driver, Mihai Sontag, was the top drivers in a Maserati. I have a picture of Sontag driving the Maserati in that particular hillclimb race, but I have to beg someone to scan it for me...

Mihai – Can you please provide me with dates, distance and other basic data for the various Sinaia hill climb events? When you click at my signature it will show the headline for the hill climb list (please click again to enter) You will see, which data I am looking for. I shall very much appreciate your help in this matter because I have no information about the Sinaia climb and several other Romanian hill climbs.

[Mihai]

The Sinaia hillclimb was recognised in 1934 by the then ACRR (Royal Auto Club of Romania). Only licensed drivers were allowed to compete, due to its difficulties. It had 13 turns, mainly hairpins and 90 degrees corners, maximum slope 11.1% and a level difference of 133.5 metres between start and finish. Total length: 2560 metres. The start was aprox. 600 m away from the Sinaia railway station and the finish was close to the royal palace called Pelisor (read ‘Pelishor’). It was held in 1934-1939 and 1948-1951. And again throughout the 70s. But not anymore, with closing traffic giving the organisers a hard time.

The inaugural Sinaia hillclimb was won by Jean Calcianu, in a Bugatti. Iorgu Ghica was the winner of the second edition (1936), behind the wheel of a Maserati, setting the track record 2’28”19 averaging 61.9 kph. This record was unbeaten in the 1937 edition. It was 1938 that Petre Cristea (BMW 328) won it in 2’20”81, defeating Mihai Sontag (Maserati) and Jean Calcianu (Steyr).

Track map available and two separate photos with Sontag and Calcianu in Sinaia action. These two paragraphs above are the exact translation of what I found in the 1979 ACR jubilee yearbook. Sometimes elliptical as you may notice. I’m not sure if there was no 1935 Sinaia hillclimb or in fact there were only test runs in 1934 and Calcianu won in 1935. Reliable data are those explicitly mentioned. To avoid confusions, I should say that Mihai Sontag was mentioned as Misu Sontag by Marcor in the thread called ‘Romania 1938 and Hans Sruck’s Auto Union’. The yearbook mentions that start was given standing, engine running. Do you know hillclimbs with a launched start, for instance ?

[Jonas]

The car was in poor condition and the fact that the car waited two years in customs, due to bureaucracy and formalities that are still reigning today this God damned country wasn’t at all helpful for him. Only a magician like him could bring this car to life again. Technical: 2600 cc, straight-eight, dohc, supercharged, 180 bhp @ 5600, weight 920 kg, top speed 225 kph. All my Romanian written sources are mentioning a 2.6 litre engine for this car. But the book I have from the Tazio Nuvolari Museum says the car that the ‘Flying Mantuan’ drove to victory in Monaco was a 2.3 litre. It must be the fact that my 1979 ACR yearbook says the car was model 1933, while the wins in Monaco GP and the Targa Florio were obtained in 1932. However, it probably was an ex-Nuvolari car.

On this forum there is a photo of what is claimed to be Calcianu's Alfa Romeo. Does anyone have any more information on Calcianu and his Alfa Romeo? More photos? More details on when he got it? From where? And of course: where did it go?!

Edit: Having the same discussion on two different forums could lead to confusion. So let me post my earlier comment from the other forum as well:

But how about this theory of car identity: SF30!
According to Moore this car is lost to history in the end of 1936 when sold to a dealer Ditta A&L Rotondi, Milano. Registration records end there indicating either breaking up of the car or that it was exported.
Time-wise it would tie in with the reported two years of delay in Romanian customs!

A photo of SF30 on page 599 in "The Legendary 2.3" shows a car remarkably similar to the photo in biz5300's post!

If the car is indeed SF30 it probably wouldn't be an ex-Nuvolari car. But it would be the ex-Varzi 1934 Mille Migila winner!

Edited by Jonas, 30 May 2009 - 07:08.

[dretceterini]

Hmmm .... nice! Interesting picture too: Bucharest race in 1948 ....



And what was Hans Stuck doing in Romania in 1940?

What is the lead car in this photo? The 2nd car appears to be a BMW 319 or 328..

[dretceterini]

On this forum there is a photo of what is claimed to be Calcianu's Alfa Romeo. Does anyone have any more information on Calcianu and his Alfa Romeo? More photos? More details on when he got it? From where? And of course: where did it go?!

I tend to think it is an Alfa, SF 30...

[biz5300]

On this forum there is a photo of what is claimed to be Calcianu's Alfa Romeo. Does anyone have any more information on Calcianu and his Alfa Romeo? More photos? More details on when he got it? From where? And of course: where did it go?!

Edit: Having the same discussion on two different forums could lead to confusion. So let me post my earlier comment from the other forum as well:


If the car is indeed SF30 it probably wouldn't be an ex-Nuvolari car. But it would be the ex-Varzi 1934 Mille Migila winner!

Yes .. that would suit.. Angela cherrett has Varzis car down as SF30 ...

[Mihai]

A dozen photos from the 1937 Bucharest Grand Prix, sent by BMW Historisches Archiv, many of them published for the first time on the internet :

Once upon a time... Bucharest Grand Prix

[Hans Etzrodt]

Mihai - do you have dates and other information for the 1937, 1939, 1948 and 1949 Sinaia events?

1928, ? Sinaia (7 km) p/o Cupa Negel R Ecker, Motorcycles BMW 500cc (FTD) 9m07.6s T?
1934, Aug 12 Sinaia (2.560 km) R Calzianu, Jean Bugatti 2m35.91s R
1936, Aug 30 Sinaia (2.560 km) R Ghica, Iorgu Maserati 2m28.19s R
1937, ? Sinaia (2.560 km) R ? ? ? ?
1938, Sep 4 Sinaia (2.560 km) R Cristea, Petre (FTD) BMW 328 2m20.81s R
1939, ? ? Sinaia (2.560 km) D *** assumed event
1948, ? ? Sinaia (2.560 km) D *** assumed event
1949, ? ? Sinaia (2.560 km) D *** assumed event

[Comgar]

... do you have dates and other information for the 1937, 1939, 1948 and 1949 Sinaia events?

1928, ? Sinaia (7 km) p/o Cupa Negel R Ecker, Motorcycles BMW 500cc (FTD) 9m07.6s T?

 

Ecker, 1928 Sinaia , Cupa Negel

 

 

 

 

 

 

"4 septembrie 1928 - Concurentii ( o parte) de la " Cupa Negel"
Nr. 11 Nicolae Ionescu-Cristea
Nr. 4 Marin Moraru
Nr. 9 Marin Mares
Nr. 13 Theodor Porojan
Pe motocicleta, in spatele lui Marin Moraru, germanul Ecker, castigatorul concursului."

 

http://www.pro-bike....-11#entry440474

 

 

Edited by Comgar, 10 September 2013 - 16:15.

[Comgar]

Sinaia 1927

"Gheorghe Nadu in data de 01.05.1927 pe motocicleta Guzzi de 500 cmc. ,castigator al Cupei George Enescu, in Cursa de Coasta desfasurata in data de 1 mai 1927 pe versantul rasaritean al muntelui Paduchiosu ,langa Sinaia "

http://www.pro-bike....olul-20/page-81

 

 

 

Edited by Comgar, 10 September 2013 - 16:41.

[Comgar]

GP Bucuresti , 1937 - Hans Ruesch

[Comgar]

Hans Stuck  - Romania , Cluj