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Porsche power, opposite chassis


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#1 Megatron

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 11:27

Recently there has been a bit of a fiasco regarding the new Daytona Prototype, the Fabcar, and it's naming in respect to Porsche. Grand Am rules dectated that the car be called a "Porsche-Fabcar", as the engine must be named ahead of the chassis.

Porsche did not like this, as they only supply the engine and felt the name would be took "Porsche" for a project that was only supported with the engine. The car can, and will, carry other powerplants and has nothing to do with Porsche.

Long time sports car fans have said that there have been instances in the past where Porsche power has been in other chassis, sometimes with great sucess.

The only instances that occur off my head have been recent Le Mans attempts in which Courage Porsches ran, sometimes with podium results, or the much mangled Grand Am/ALMS Champion Lola B2K/10 Porsche. Also the Kreemer Porsche. Others that might fall in line are the Dauer 962 or the TWR WSC95s, but these were Porsche projects, and in reality, are true Porsches (despite one being a Jaguar and Mazda in a previous life). By that I mean you couldn't go run down a drop a Judd or Ford in the WSC95.

Is there a history of Porsche power in other chassis?

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#2 karlcars

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 12:33

The TWR WSC95 started out as an American-side Porsche project and later moved to Europe and of course to Joest, who won Le Mans twice in succession with the same car. He won the car as well in the first Le Mans outing! The whole story will be told in my forthcoming book.

Champion Porsche in Florida had a go at a Porsche engine in a Lola chassis, but it wasn't successful. In IMSA of course a March-Porsche was the title winner one season.

Don't knock the Fabcar effort. It looks very good and is the work of Dave Klym, who has been the supplier of Porsche 962 tubs for some years. I visited his Indy shop last month and my story on the car and the new Daytona Prototype formula will be told in a forthcoming Racecar Engineering. If Porsche isn't going to go racing -- and it isn't -- this is not a bad substitute.

I should mention that this weekend the cars are testing at Daytona and the Porsche Fabcar is the fastest of all the cars there, the others having Toyota, BMW and Ford engines.

#3 2F-001

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 12:57

I seem to recall that the Cooke-Woods IMSA team did a Porsche-engined version of their Lola T600 for Le Mans, but without any success. I don't know if that was used anywhere else though.
(Or am I confusing something else with the project that Karl mentions?)

#4 2F-001

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 13:01

double-posted... sorry!

#5 jarama

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 13:20

Megatron,

having a glance at "Porsche Specials" by Lothar Boschen and Jurgen Barth,

1951, Glöckler-Porsche, six units built, using various coachworks for racing and even street use.
Mid 50ies, Cooper-Porsche, 356-engined, driven by Ian Frazer-Jones at South African events.
Mid 50ies, Pooper-Porsche, another South African 356 engined, built an driven by Peter Lovely using a F2 Cooper chassis.
1955, Gordini-Porsche, 550 engined, driven by Carl Delfosse in the 1955 Buenos Aires 1000 Km Race, 3rd in Class.
1956, Poll-Platje - Porsche, 356 engined, built and raced by Wim Poll achieving several Dutch Championships.
1957, Hirondelle-Porsche, 356 engined, raced in Holland during 5 years by Gijs Van Lennep and Rob Slotemaker, amongst others.
1959, Behra-Porsche, RSK-engined, designed by Valerio Colotti, built by Neri e Bonaccini.
Mid 60ies, Elva-Porsche Mark VII, various units using either the 4-cyl Porsche 1700cc or the 8-cyl
Porsche Type 771 engines.
1966, Brickyard-Porsche, using two 911 engines, DNQ at Indianapolis driven by Bill Cheesbourgh.
1973, KMW-Porsche SP 2, firstly using the 6-cyl Porsche 2000cc, later a 911R turbocharged version.
Rolling chassis sold at DM 26,800.

Carles.

#6 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 13:28

During the mid 1980s, Swedish entrant Strandell used a Porsche 934 engine ín his Group C2 car.
It was parts-bin special, with a TOJ chassis and a Lotec body.

The car was simply called a Strandell-Porsche.

#7 Frank de Jong

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 15:26

MBM Monteverdi F1
Arrows-Porsche F1 (FA11C, FA12)
Penske PC 6B Indycar
March-Porsche Indycars (88C, 89P, 90P)
Grid S2 group C
Sehcar group C
March 83G-85G GrC or IMSA
Kremer K8/K9 WSC
Harrier LR10 WSC

That's what I can add.

#8 David Beard

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 15:54

Originally posted by Megatron
Is there a history of Porsche power in other chassis?


There's one here...

http://www.atlasf1.c...highlight=dulon

#9 David McKinney

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 16:24

I hope that list from Porsche Specials doesn't claim to be comprehensive
No Ken Miles?
No Pup Pupilidy?
And Lovely's US car was based on an F3 Cooper, not an F2
And another omission, Bruce Webster's New Zealand car, based on a Mk VI Cooper 500
Not to mention numerous Volkswagen Beetles that underwent engine transplants in various parts of the world

#10 diego

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 16:38

On a tangent (but remember, a tangent is but the arc of a larger circle!), here is a Porsche-engined VW bus, ostensibly used as the transporter for the Otto Glockler team:

http://www.vintagebu...?string=porsche

(Scroll down to the bottom of the page once it opens)


Posted Image


:cool:

#11 karlcars

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 17:00

Great stuff!

I would only say that the Behra-Porsche was more Porsche than Behra, having been built on the basis of a Porsche sports-racer's frame and suspension. So it's not quite a Porsche engine in another chassis.

#12 diego

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 18:01

And, lest we be accused of being macadam-centric, remember that Porsche has powered many vehicles to victory in the Baja 500/1000. A good example of the breed is the Chenowth.

www.chenowth.com

#13 Don Capps

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 18:09

How can one not mention the fabulous No. 16 Trans Ocean Motors Lotus 23 - Porsche of George Follmer? Not only did manage to win the 1965 USRRC, he won the Pensacola/Corry Field USRRC event on the overall....

#14 cjpani

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 18:36

And of course there is the super obscure (at least for me) Fitti-Porsche:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Anyone care to broaden on this particular car??

Carlos

#15 jgm

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 18:38

Porsche provided the power for McLaren in F1 for a time in the eighties and also, later, for Arrows - albeit with a bit of badge engineering in both cases.

#16 David McKinney

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 20:11

Originally posted by karlcars
I would only say that the Behra-Porsche was more Porsche than Behra, having been built on the basis of a Porsche sports-racer's frame and suspension. So it's not quite a Porsche engine in another chassis.

Reluctant as I am to question the word of such a renowned Porsche authority....

The F2 Porsche Behra raced in 1958 was certainly RSK-framed, but surely the Behra-Porsche itself used a Colotti-designed spaceframe chassis of its own?

#17 dretceterini

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 21:53

does someone have photos of all the Glocklers? (I thought there were 7 and not 6)...

#18 pc13

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 21:59

Say, didn't the French Lada importeur use Porsche engines on their Samara Rally Raids in the Paris Dakar in the early 90's? I think I remember Patrick Tambay driving one of those cars, possibly Salvador Servia as well?

#19 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 22:12

My understand of the Lola-PorscheGT1 situation was that the series made Champion run the engine in its GT1 restrictors and not the restrictors allowed for open top cars. So it lost a tn of its potential.



As an aside, the Daytona prototype and the entire Grand-Am series is a stupid joke. Sportscar racing isnt a force and never will be, so why does NASCAR have to meddle with it?

I wonder what Audi think of the Rolex 24 hours of Daytona magazine ad that features the R8 and only the R8

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#20 Uwe

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Posted 06 January 2003 - 10:17

Suisse car designer Franco Sbarro built several cars equipped with Porsche engines, though they were not race cars but built for wealthy customers.

http://www.carclassi...m/html/BK44.htm
http://perso.club-in...olfturbogb.html

#21 petefenelon

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Posted 06 January 2003 - 12:03

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld

As an aside, the Daytona prototype and the entire Grand-Am series is a stupid joke. Sportscar racing isnt a force and never will be, so why does NASCAR have to meddle with it?


Looks like they're trying to turn sports-car racing into a closed-shop franchise with "approved constructors" (echoes of the IRL). The grand-ami.com website is interesting, it looks like they haven't really finished defining the rules yet! (echoes of F3000 in '85!) It also looks like the GTS cars will have sufficient advantage to beat the hell out of the prototypes this year.

One thing is for sure. The Daytona Prototypes look utterly gruesome. Even if for no reason other than that, I hope the ALMS eats it alive!

pete

#22 Ron Scoma

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Posted 06 January 2003 - 12:07

Elva-Porsche

I had an Elva-Porsche a while ago (1977 or so). It had the 4 Cam flat fan engine.
It was an Elva MK 7 chassis with Porsche power.
I think they built around 12 of them but I am not sure.
They did fairly well in SCCA at the time.

Ron Scoma

#23 Don Capps

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Posted 06 January 2003 - 13:37

Ron, I recall the Elva Mark 7 - Porsches very well. They seemed to be very nice cars and did pretty well in the SCCA events they ran in. They were pretty popular at one point. Your guess as the number built, 12, sounds about right.

#24 Evo One

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Posted 06 January 2003 - 13:48

I can't believe that no-one has mentioned Abarth here ):

#25 Megatron

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Posted 06 January 2003 - 14:17

Originally posted by petefenelon


Looks like they're trying to turn sports-car racing into a closed-shop franchise with "approved constructors" (echoes of the IRL). The grand-ami.com website is interesting, it looks like they haven't really finished defining the rules yet! (echoes of F3000 in '85!) It also looks like the GTS cars will have sufficient advantage to beat the hell out of the prototypes this year.

One thing is for sure. The Daytona Prototypes look utterly gruesome. Even if for no reason other than that, I hope the ALMS eats it alive!

pete


The AGT/GTS Corvette was second fastest overall during the tests, and the lap times have not dropped for the new cars very much since they began testing. If they didn't mandate those insanely big roofs or have such tight restrictions, perhaps the general feeling of their assetics would be more positive.

I remember the Courage Porsche I mentioned nearly won Le Mans in 1995 with Mario. I wonder if Porsche would have "counted" it in their Le Mans victory portfoilio considering it was a Courage chassis?

About the Fabcar/Porsche or Porsche/Fabcar, I thought they had finally got the stituation resolved with the offical name of the car being "Fabcar powered by Porsche", but on Grand Am's scoring chart they still refer to it as "Porsche Fabcar". As the plot thickins :eek:

#26 dmj

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 00:43

Originally posted by pc13
Say, didn't the French Lada importeur use Porsche engines on their Samara Rally Raids in the Paris Dakar in the early 90's? I think I remember Patrick Tambay driving one of those cars, possibly Salvador Servia as well?

Don't know but Porsche developed Samara for Lada anyway so connection exists...

#27 antonvrs

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 01:07

A few years ago Porsche was the honored marque at the Monterey Historics complete with factory participation. I was interested to note that there was no sign or mention of the Elva-Porsches anywhere at that event.
Is Porsche ashamed to admit that they had to buy Elva chassis to learn how to build a modern race car?
Anton

#28 Paul Newby

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 02:15

This is a question for David McKinney :)

Bryan Faloon raced a Rorstan Mk1a Porsche in the Tasman Series in the early 70's. I believe the engine was a flat 8 (out of a 907?) Alas poor Faloon was killed in this car during the '72 NZGP.

I would be curious to know the history of this car and any photos of the Rorstan, I'm curious as to how they fitted this sports car engine into a single seater (unless the engine is out of the 718?)

PRN

#29 David McKinney

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 06:22

The car was based on one of Bob Britton's Australian-built replica Brabham chassis, as also used for Renmax and Mildren cars. The engine was a 2-litre flat-eight, reportedly a Type 771 (which doesn't mean anything to me but might to others)

#30 fausto

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 19:19

there is also the unraced GKW-Porsche 862SP, built in Italy and destined to race in C2, I have some slides, hope to be able to scan them, and post here....

some Tigas where raced with Porsche power, the Charles Ivey C2 car and a two IMSA Light (one driven by the widow of the late Peter Gregg, Deborah) http://www.racingspo...6-10-26-058.jpg

one Royale IMSA light too, back in the mid-eighties http://www.pbase.com.../image/23358524

#31 Frank S

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 21:13

.
Didn't see the Dolphin-Porsche ...

SCG August 1963


Ernie Bickels' photo of Miles at Riverside

Posted Image

#32 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 23:08

Originally posted by David McKinney
The car was based on one of Bob Britton's Australian-built replica Brabham chassis, as also used for Renmax and Mildren cars. The engine was a 2-litre flat-eight, reportedly a Type 771 (which doesn't mean anything to me but might to others)


Sorry David... just have to correct you here...

It's 'Rennmax'... and to clarify, Britton's cars were Rennmaxes, but he built chassis for many others who named them as they chose. Mildren and MRC being the best known.

#33 renzo_zorzi

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 23:35

Originally posted by Ron Scoma
Elva-Porsche

I had an Elva-Porsche a while ago (1977 or so). It had the 4 Cam flat fan engine.
It was an Elva MK 7 chassis with Porsche power.
I think they built around 12 of them but I am not sure.
They did fairly well in SCCA at the time.

Ron Scoma


the elva-porsche was really a nice looking car, too bad right now i am unable to provide a picture. besides it was also successful in the european hillclimb championship when in 1964 german driver Edgar Barth (who unfortunately died of cancer not much later on IIRC) won that championship driving an Elva.

another field of motorsports porsche engines were often used was the rather european affair called "Autocross" - races with vehicles closely resembling baja-buggies or paris dakar buggies schlesser style. in continental europe this sport was quite popular in the 1970ies and 80ies. the big 3 or 3.2 litre machines of porsche carreras were the choice for the more sophisticated teams in that sector of grassroots sports.

#34 ricardo1954

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 23:53

cjpani :

The FITTIPORSCHE is made by Emerson Fittipaldi and Wilson Fittipaldi Jr. in the year of 1967,
using a Porsche chassis and engine (2.0).
The car races in 1967 and 1968 with this engine. In 1969 the engine is changed by a Volkswagen (1.8).
In the year of 1970 the car is sold to the brazilian driver Mauricio Paes de Barros.
In the year of 1974 the car is drived by the brazilian driver Antonio Martins Filho.

The races of the FITTIPORSCHE :

With Porsche engine :

1967 -

Dec/03 - Brazilian 1000 Mile - Interlagos - DNF - Emerson Fittipaldi/Wilson Fittipaldi Jr.
Dec/17 - Almirante Tamandare GP - Rio de Janeiro - 3th - Wilson Fittipaldi Jr.

1968 -

Feb/11 - Paulo Pimentel Trophy - Paraná State - DNF - Emerson Fittipaldi
Apr/21 - 1000 Km Brasília - 3th - Emerson Fittipaldi/Lian Abreu Duarte
May/26 - 3 H Rio de Janeiro - DNF - Emerson Fittipaldi
Jun/30 - 500 Mile of Guanabara - Rio de Janeiro - DNF - Wilson Fittipaldi Jr./Marivaldo Fernandes
Oct/27 - Santos Dumont Trophy - Rio de Janeiro - DNF - Emerson Fittipaldi/Marivaldo Fernandes

With Volkswagen engine :

1969 -

Apr/21 - 1000 Km Brasília - DNF - Wilson Fittipaldi Jr. / Luiz Fernando Terra Smith

1970 -

Mar/15 - Festival de Velocidade - Interlagos - 8th - Mauricio Paes de Barros
Apr/19 - 1000 Km Brasília - DNF - Mauricio Paes de Barros / Sergio Magalhães
Jun/14 - 12 H Interlagos - DNF - Mauricio Paes de Barros / Sergio Magalhães

1974 -

Jun/27 - Brazilian Championship - Goiânia - 11th - Antonio Martins Filho

1975 -

Aug/10 - Brazilian Championship - Brasília - 10th - Antonio Martins Filho
Oct/19 - Brazilian Championship - Goiânia - DNF - Antonio Martins Filho

Ricardo Cunha

#35 cjpani

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 23:55

Muchas Gracias Ricardo!! :clap:
Do you have any idea what chassis was used as a basis for the car??
Perhaps a 908, or 910???

cj

#36 renzo_zorzi

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 00:24

cjpani, from the above given info that fittiporsche appeared in 1967 it cant be a 908, that car was introduced one year later. also i doubt it could have been a 910, that type was used in 1967 by the porsche works team only. from the pictures i would suspect it could have most likely been a porsche 906 carrera. of course this is all assumptions :wave:

#37 ricardo1954

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 10:10

cjpani :

The chassis used in the Fittiporsche is a Porsche 1500 RS earliered used by Christian "Bino" Heins and Francisco "Chico" Landi in brazilian races.

Ricardo Cunha

#38 petefenelon

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 10:56

When I was a nipper the rallycross world was no stranger to 911-engined Beetles...

There was a Thundersaloons Sierra fitted with most of the noisy bits from a 962 (and I think a custom Xtrac or Gartrac transmission) in the early 90s, I don't think it ever worked properly, but by 'eck it was an ambitious and good looking car. I think Rod Birley was involved with it.

#39 Eolo3

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 17:11

[quote name='fausto' date='Apr 28 2005, 21:19' post='2003962']
there is also the unraced GKW-Porsche 862SP, built in Italy and destined to race in C2, I have some slides, hope to be able to scan them, and post here....

Hi All, sorry, i Know to be so late but, for who is interested to Porsche GKW Group C2/GTP race car, here an interesting website:
www.porsche.evengest.com

Rgds
Eolo3


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#40 AJB

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 20:10

One of the most successful must surely be George Follmer's Lotus 23-Porsche which won the 1965 USRRC (by virtue of picking up points in the under 2-litre class admittedly, but he also had one outright win and a number of good finishes overall against much more powerful cars).
Alan

#41 D-Type

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 20:12

I must have missed this thread first time around. The AMB, a Kenyan-built single seater circa 1965, had a Porsche 356 Carrera engine.

Edited by D-Type, 27 January 2013 - 17:16.


#42 timnevinson

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 23:22

There was a Lotus 11 Porsche in the US I believe which had some loose connection with the James Dean tragedy

#43 Henri Greuter

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:12

As an aside, the Daytona prototype and the entire Grand-Am series is a stupid joke. Sportscar racing isnt a force and never will be, so why does NASCAR have to meddle with it?



Easy.

As long as you can't persuade competitive teams to compete within your premiers seriesl like NASACAR , Busch Series Trucks etc, beut keep them spilling money in your own minor league and avoid them to be competing elsewhere, they can't contribute to the success of another racing formula other then NASCAR, BUSCH Series, Truck's etc. that they organize and thrive upon.


On topic, do the CART March chassis count as well?


henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 05 May 2010 - 12:12.


#44 Graham Clayton

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 03:28

The 1947 Type 360 Cisitalia was powered by a flat-12 Porsche engine.

#45 GMACKIE

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:44

My little 'Cooper' Porsche should be mentioned here, perhaps. It was built in 1959 on Phillip Island, by Len Lukey.....for Laurrie Whitehead.

Unlike the 'Faux Pas' [it's 'sister' car], with its Repco-headed Holden engine, Whitehead used a 4-cam 356 Porsche engine. The brakes are 356 drums.

When I bought the car it had a Peugeot engine, however I have now fitted a 356 engine. This is a push-rod engine, as a 4 cam was way out of my budget, and I'm not sure if I'd want one [sour grapes? :blush: ]

#46 David Birchall

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:01

There was a Lotus 11 Porsche in the US I believe which had some loose connection with the James Dean tragedy



Actually a Lotus Nine chassis-still with the original owner's estate so far as I know.

What about the Fageol-didn't that have two Porsche engines or have I been smoking the wrong stuff again? :blush:

#47 Roger Clark

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:14

The 1947 Type 360 Cisitalia was powered by a flat-12 Porsche engine.

The whole car was designed by Porsche in the same way as the Auto-Unions of 1934-37. The flat-12 engine was designed for the Cisitalia. It wasn't an example of a Porsche engine being fitted to another manufacturer's chassis.

360 was the Porsche design number, five before the famous sports car. I don't know whether Cisitalia used that designation. There may be a similarity to the Eagle T1G, a designation used by its designer Len Terry but not recognised by Dan Gurney.

#48 GMACKIE

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:25

360 was the Porsche design number, five before the famous sports car.

Would that be 356?


#49 Michael Ferner

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:22

What about the Fageol-didn't that have two Porsche engines or have I been smoking the wrong stuff again? :blush:


Better go looking for another dealer; the Fageol had two Offenhauser Midget engines! Twenty years later, there was another twin engine at Indy (Stein), and that one had a porch in front of the house as well as in the back. :)

#50 Roger Clark

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 10:07

Would that be 356?

Of course. Numerical dyslexia.