Nostalgic 'nuts & bolts'
#1
Posted 07 January 2003 - 19:23
Many people complain that F1 is not what it was, usually on the grounds that there is little overtaking. Perhaps, but on the racing front I think rose coloured specs are sometimes applied when recalling the standard of racing in the past. For me, the main thing that has been lost is visible technical diversity. In the 70s, there was little variation on the engine front (being the DFV era), but the progression of ideas in the area of chassis design was fascinating.
Taking front suspension design as an example:
In the sixties racing cars were of the cigar tube variety. To go along with this obsession with reduced frontal area, most cars had inboard coil spring damper units operated by beefy rocker arms, doubling as the top suspension member. This is a typical arrangement, the Lotus 49, being the work of Colin Chapman and Maurice Philippe.
Not long into the 3 litre formula the cigar tube went out of fashion...a chubbier form became the vogue and straight forward double wishbone systems with outboard coil / damper units began to reappear. Despite his flirtation with the complexities of the Cosworth 4wd car, this system Robin Herd produced for the March 701 was about as basic as it gets.
Len Terry's cigar tube BRMs (and his AAR Eagle too, for that matter) had the usual rocker arm operated springs, but when his replacement Tony Southgate penned the gorgeous pregnant goldfish forms of the P153 & P160, outboard springs reappeared here too.
The Lotus 72 was another Maurice Philippe creation under Chapman's direction. This front end really pushed the boat out. I've never been sure whether the 72 was a great success because of, or in spite of it, but red herring or not, much of the opposition rushed around trying to copy the driveshaft driven inboard brake system, if not the compact "there and back again" compound torsion bar springs.
Over at the timber yard Tyrrell designer Derek Gardner didn't jump to imitate the 72 straight away, however. In replacing the team's March 701 he took strong design cues from the Matra MS80 they had previously campaigned so successfully. Look at that bottom wishbone: solidly constructed out-houses spring to mind....
Robin Herd's second F1 March (the 711) was much more interesting and elegant than his first, but it was (necessarily?) corrupted as the season progressed. While the Costin bodywork concept was being ruined, the inboard brakes were jettisoned leaving this gaping hole where they should have been. The rocker arms operated the springs ahead of the tub in a position where they no longer had reason to be. The whole car became an example of abandoned logic. (Good job they had Ronnie.)
When Gardner decided to take notice of Lotus and go to inboard brakes with the Tyrrell 005 the look was more Tonka Toy than 72, but JYS was probably happier with that.
This is the Iso Malboro Williams. I can't recall the type number or the designer's name...but look, another chassis with an unused gaping hole into which an inboard brake system could be fitted. They never did, though.
Ralph Bellamy designed a baffling linkage system to operate the inboard spring units on the pregnant goldfish McLaren M19, giving a rising rate effect. It was retained for the immediately effective Gordon Coppuck M23, and was never corrupted with attempts at 72 emulation. However, later iterations of the M23 reverted to a simple rocker arrangement, taking us back to the start of this little yarn.
Rocker arm suspension then remained with us into the ground effect era, but the requirement for ever stiffer spring rates and wider track meant that the rocker arms were having to resist enormous bending stresses. Hence pull rod and push rod systems appeared, with the latter, engineeringly less elegant solution eventually achieving dominance because of the better access to the spring unit on the top of the tub.
Corrections, comments, additions?
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#2
Posted 07 January 2003 - 19:30
#3
Posted 07 January 2003 - 20:37
I'll second that!Originally posted by David Beard
Many people complain that F1 is not what it was, usually on the grounds that there is little overtaking. Perhaps, but on the racing front I think rose coloured specs are sometimes applied when recalling the standard of racing in the past. For me, the main thing that has been lost is visible technical diversity.
Good thread idea! Although atm, I have little time to add to here.
#4
Posted 07 January 2003 - 20:40
Great collection of details you've got here.
#5
Posted 07 January 2003 - 20:47
Originally posted by Frank de Jong
Should it be the 1973 car, the IR01, then the designer is John Clarke.
I think that's the one.
#6
Posted 07 January 2003 - 20:49
DCN
#7
Posted 07 January 2003 - 21:07
Also, IR01 and IR03 (or IR/1 and IR/3) were chassis numbers for the 1973 cars, the 1974 cars were numbered FW01, FW02 (those two actually rebuilds of the '73 cars) and FW03.
#8
Posted 07 January 2003 - 21:41
Originally posted by Doug Nye
one interesting 'hidden' advantage of the Lotus 72 inboard brake system which might not occur to most enthusiasts was simple removal of a massive heat source from the hub and wheel, taking it inboard instead. This move enabled the wheels and hubs to run cooler, which in turn meant there was less heat in the rim to be conducted into the tyre.
DCN
Which begs the question...why did no one persevere with the concept. (Admittedly, the tyre companies would have to have played ball). Same logic would apply to rear brakes I would assume. Most teams went to inboard rears then abandoned them for the sake of clear air through the venturi tunnels in the ground effect era. So when ground effect was banned, why did the brakes stay outboard?
There was another version of inboard front brakes on the Cooper Maserati...just inboard of the upright on a live stub axle. Seemed a good idea to me but no one else took it up that I can recall. I supposed it compromised suspension design a bit, having to fit a disc between the wishbones.
#9
Posted 07 January 2003 - 21:49
Originally posted by Bladrian
Fascinating - what materials would have been used in the differing designs? One would imagine that differing materials would have directed the various designers along different solution paths?
I would imagine people making tubular wishbones would use Reynolds 531 or T45 aircraft chrome moly tubing. I'm no expert on this stuff. Don't know about those shapely fabricated style ones which would start from sheet steel. ( Lotus 72, Tyrrell)
Titanium for stub axles and hubs in some case? Don't know.
There was often a mix of fabricated steel & cast uprights. (Fabs especially at the rear?)
#10
Posted 08 January 2003 - 00:43
Robin Herd used outboard front springs on the McLaren M7A before the Cosworth. I assumed that he used inboard front springs on the Cosworth because of the difficulty in fitting them around the drive shafts. In general I have never understood the advantages of inboard front springs. THey can't affect frontal area, unless the rear springs are also inboard, they wouldn't have much effect on darg coefficient, and they probably led to an increase in unsprung wieght as the top wishbone/rocker arm was more heavily stressed. They did make the cars look better though! Later, when the radiators moved to the sides of the cars, inboard front springs were needed to ensure clean airflow.
One of the main advantages of inboard brakes was reduction in unsprung weight. From the late 1970s this ceased to be an issue as Grand Prix cars no longer had springs. I suggest this is a large part of the reason for dropping inboard brakes.
As David says, the Cooper "semi-inboard front brake did compromise suspension design. THey had a most unnatural kink in the lower wishbone. Wasn't it failure at this point that caused Brian Redman's serious accident at Spa in 1968? BRM used a similar principle at the rear. THe objective here was not t reduce unsprung weight, on which they had no effect, but to improve brake cooling by putting them in the airstream.
#11
Posted 08 January 2003 - 18:10
The evolution of theory and design, put in practice and refined again. Your choice of suspension design & developments was a fine one...
If I may continue in another vein, the use of Gasoline Direct Injection, (GDI) then and now.
Then -
Back in the 1950s, the fabled Mercedes-Benz 300SLR sports racers and W196 Grand Prix cars had GDI, essentially derived from aircraft practice. The concept had supplanted carburetion in aircraft as more amenable to negative-g maneuvers. (It was to avoid fuel starvation in carbureted aircraft that the "wingover" initiated a dive with inverted flight.)
Mercedes fitted direct injection in its race cars for enhanced distribution of fuel to their inline-6s, inherently long powerplants. Another nuance of these engines was their crankshaft, its drive taken off the middle rather than the rear; this, to minimize torsional loads.
Now -
Audi has absolutely dominated Le Mans and other endurance-racing venues, and the company gives a lot of credit to a single technical concept: Gasoline Direct Injection. As the name suggests, a GDI system injects its gasoline directly into the combustion chamber, not into intake ports, a throttle body or some such.
Audi has certainly demonstrated GDI benefits in endurance racing. As an interesting tidbit, there's no need for the concept's light-load regime, as more than 70 percent of a Le Mans lap is spent at full throttle. Nonetheless, Audi notes that other efficiencies of GDI translate into two fewer pitstops at a race like Le Mans.
Competitors at GM rate GDI even higher. They reckon it could give an advantage of 4 to 7 laps over a 24-hour race. In fact, the company cited its own lack of GDI as one reason for ending the Cadillac LMP program. GM's European arm, Opel, offers several cars with GDI powerplants, their technology licensed from Mitsubishi. But it's a long way from R¨sselsheim to the Circuit de la Sarthe.
GDI in Tomorrow's Formula 1?
I bet that Formula 1 engineers are thinking hard on the GDI concept. However, F1 revs exceeding 19,000 rpm make for a real challenge. From Race Tech, a specialized British monthly, Audi Sport's Ulrich Baretzky observed that it takes roughly 5 microseconds to get the fuel injected and mixed at 6000 rpm. Thus, there'd be less than 2 microsec. to perform this at F1 revs.
When this is achieved (and you'll note I don't say "if"), it'll be comparable to the introduction of pneumatic valve return.
#12
Posted 08 January 2003 - 18:10
Originally posted by David Beard
I would imagine people making tubular wishbones would use Reynolds 531 or T45 aircraft chrome moly tubing. I'm no expert on this stuff. Don't know about those shapely fabricated style ones which would start from sheet steel. ( Lotus 72, Tyrrell)
Titanium for stub axles and hubs in some case? Don't know.
There was often a mix of fabricated steel & cast uprights. (Fabs especially at the rear?)
Would that those materials (or their equivalents) were still used today. The problem with carbon fibre components is that they don't break, or better yet, bend; they shatter, producing sharp, edged fragments - witness Senna's death as a direct result of this characteristic of modern suspension components. A shattered wishbone pierced his helmet, with fatal results. The bits don't show up too well on X-ray machines either .....
If today's F1 suspension components were still manufactured from metal, they'd probably have less chance of punching into the tubs in the event of a prang - as happened to Schumacher at Silverstone, 1999.
Lots of reasons to go back to the old ways of doing it .....
#13
Posted 08 January 2003 - 18:34
Originally posted by Bladrian
Would that those materials (or their equivalents) were still used today. The problem with carbon fibre components is that they don't break, or better yet, bend; they shatter, producing sharp, edged fragments - witness Senna's death as a direct result of this characteristic of modern suspension components. A shattered wishbone pierced his helmet, with fatal results. The bits don't show up too well on X-ray machines either .....
If today's F1 suspension components were still manufactured from metal, they'd probably have less chance of punching into the tubs in the event of a prang - as happened to Schumacher at Silverstone, 1999.
Lots of reasons to go back to the old ways of doing it .....
With all due respect... yer nuts.
Carbon Fiber in not a commodity item like steel or titanium. Carbon Fiber is engineered to the specific application. This provides endless possibilities, most notably the shape of the component.
It's also harder to make generalization about carbon fiber. As you may know, carbon fiber is woven strands of fibers glued together. What the strands are made of, how they are woven together and what sort of glue is used varies greatly. Also, various other composites like Kevlar combined with the carbon fiber mat can change the characteristics of the part.
As you have pointed out, carbon fiber is more likely to crack in a crash and once cracked is garbage. While this is basically true, it is also misleading. Steel doesn't normally crack, it bends. Steel can be bent back but will suffer fatigue which means it is not as strong as it used to be. Titanium while much stiffer than steel can be bent but usually the welds are the first to let go in a crash. While carbon fiber is the most likely to crack, it can also be the most likely to be repaired to the original specification. Exceptions are of course, those pieces that are critical like suspension parts.
One of the best reasons for using carbon fiber is for its disintegration qualities, the ability for the components to disburse energy and minimize the g load into the driver's compartment.
To imply that the outcome of Senna's death was the result of using carbon fiber components is a bit of a stretch IMHO... Racing is inherently a very dangerous activity and there are thousands of factors that play into the outcome of a horrid crash, like the fates.
#14
Posted 08 January 2003 - 20:03
And Senna did in fact die from a penetrating wound to the head ..... a suspension part, to wit.
#15
Posted 08 January 2003 - 20:47
Originally posted by rdrcr
Mercedes fitted direct injection in its race cars for enhanced distribution of fuel to their inline-6s, inherently long powerplants. Another nuance of these engines was their crankshaft, its drive taken off the middle rather than the rear; this, to minimize torsional loads.
GDI in Tomorrow's Formula 1?
8 cylinders, yes?
DGI is one of those things that sounds as though it ought not to be difficult...but obviously it must be or more people would have taken it up by now.
Merc w196 had inboard front brakes on the open wheelers...
#16
Posted 08 January 2003 - 20:50
Originally posted by Roger Clark
One of the main advantages of inboard brakes was reduction in unsprung weight. From the late 1970s this ceased to be an issue as Grand Prix cars no longer had springs. I suggest this is a large part of the reason for dropping inboard brakes.
No springs?...you mean horribly stiff ones, Roger?
It always puzzles me when I read that a modern F1 car has just received modified suspension geometry. Does it make hap'oth of difference, when it doesn't budge anyway?
#17
Posted 08 January 2003 - 21:25
Originally posted by David Beard
No springs?...you mean horribly stiff ones, Roger?
It always puzzles me when I read that a modern F1 car has just received modified suspension geometry. Does it make hap'oth of difference, when it doesn't budge anyway?
Yes, of course
I thought that the main objective of modern suspension geometry is to ensure that the wheel maintains a constant angle relative to the car; that it doesn't move under braking and acceleration. As you say, if the spring is so stiff that the wheel doesn't move up and down then changes in geometry won't have much effect.
#18
Posted 08 January 2003 - 21:45
Originally posted by David Beard
8 cylinders, yes?
DGI is one of those things that sounds as though it ought not to be difficult...but obviously it must be or more people would have taken it up by now.
Merc w196 had inboard front brakes on the open wheelers...
Dave,
Yeah... that's right... I confused that engine with the one in the 300 SL...
Adrian,
If that is the way you see it that's ok, it's your opinion.
More later...
#19
Posted 08 January 2003 - 23:09
matt.
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#20
Posted 09 January 2003 - 00:48
Originally posted by Roger Clark
As David says, the Cooper "semi-inboard front brake did compromise suspension design. THey had a most unnatural kink in the lower wishbone. Wasn't it failure at this point that caused Brian Redman's serious accident at Spa in 1968?
I seem to remember reading years ago about an incident (at Spa IIRC) where a driver crashed due to a suspension failure (lower wishbone breaking) and either he didn't know what had caused the accident and/or his team didn't believe him, but a photographer just happened to have taken a head-on shot of the car at the exact moment the wishbone snapped. Is this the incident I'm thinking of? If so, does anyone have the photo? (I remember seeing it "somewhere"...)
Thanks,
David.
#21
Posted 09 January 2003 - 17:11
Originally posted by David Beard
"...DGI is one of those things that sounds as though it ought not to be difficult...but obviously it must be or more people would have taken it up by now..."
Being able to inject gasoline directly into a high compression spark-ignited engine should theoretically improve fuel economy and performance. But until recently, attempts to make a practical direct injection gasoline engine have failed because of detonation and emission problems.
Mitsubishi's new GDI system now has a production direct injection gasoline engine that reportedly delivers 35 to 40 percent better fuel efficiency than an indirect multiport injected engine. The engine also puts out 10 percent more torque and meets all emission requirements, including the ones for oxides of nitrogen (NOX) which are especially tough to meet.
The GDI engine runs on an ultra lean (40:1) air/fuel ratio at idle by using special injectors that produce a "stratified" charge in the combustion chambers. Regular gasoline fuel injectors produce a fine cone-shaped mist that's necessary to create a homogeneous air/fuel mixture. The high pressure GDI injectors, by comparison, produce a very compact spray pattern that forms a swirling cloud of fuel particles. This, combined, with a "reverse tumble" air flow in the cylinders creates a layered effect (stratified charge) of air and fuel in the cylinder that is rich in the immediate vicinity of the spark plug but is progressively leaner further out.
#22
Posted 09 January 2003 - 17:35
Does anyone have specifics?
#23
Posted 09 January 2003 - 17:43
Originally posted by rdrcr
As an aside to the carbon fiber discussion, I think that the first time that the composite material was used in F1 was the MP4 in 1981(?) by Ron Dennis and the McLaren Formula One team. For the construction of the chassis, wings, and bodywork.
Does anyone have specifics?
That was the first complete carbon fibre chassis, but people were making bits and pieces out of the stuff from the mid seventies onwards. Rolf Stommelen's crash in the Hill GH1 at Barcelona in 1975 was due to the failure of an experimental carbon fibre rear wing support, IIRC.
#24
Posted 09 January 2003 - 18:20
Originally posted by David Beard
Which begs the question...why did no one persevere with the concept. (Admittedly, the tyre companies would have to have played ball). Same logic would apply to rear brakes I would assume. Most teams went to inboard rears then abandoned them for the sake of clear air through the venturi tunnels in the ground effect era. So when ground effect was banned, why did the brakes stay outboard?
.
One problem with keeping the brakes inboard at the rear is the heat, especially when butted up next to the gearbox. Now you have two serious sources of heat next to each other with no easy way of conducting it away. It is far easier to cool the brakes if they are outboard, even though this adds heat to the bearing/wheel/tire combination as DCN points out. In the front there is simply no room in these pencil shaped darts. Also, the use of carbon-carbon brakes and unobtanium for the calipers has reduced the negative effects of "sprung" weight to the point where it is easier from an engineering standpoint to leave them outboard..
#25
Posted 09 January 2003 - 18:59
Originally posted by fattogatto
One problem with keeping the brakes inboard at the rear is the heat, especially when butted up next to the gearbox. Now you have two serious sources of heat next to each other with no easy way of conducting it away. It is far easier to cool the brakes if they are outboard, even though this adds heat to the bearing/wheel/tire combination as DCN points out. In the front there is simply no room in these pencil shaped darts. Also, the use of carbon-carbon brakes and unobtanium for the calipers has reduced the negative effects of "sprung" weight to the point where it is easier from an engineering standpoint to leave them outboard..
Convincing stuff....
Are we to believe, then, that the current breed of F1 designers:-
Do not merely follow F1 fashion trends?
Are not afraid to make the odd innovation for fear of not providing a quick return for the sponsors?
Do in fact, review abandoned oddball ideas from the past and consider whether there is mileage in them after all?
Have a small measure of the spirit of the likes of Chapman, Murray, and Gardner?
Do not think that the only place for imagination is within a microchip?
Are capable of creating a car which is not a development of last year's but seeks the unfair advantage?
#26
Posted 09 January 2003 - 19:27
Originally posted by David Beard
Convincing stuff....
Are we to believe, then, that the current breed of F1 designers:-
Do not merely follow F1 fashion trends?
Are not afraid to make the odd innovation for fear of not providing a quick return for the sponsors?
Do in fact, review abandoned oddball ideas from the past and consider whether there is mileage in them after all?
Have a small measure of the spirit of the likes of Chapman, Murray, and Gardner?
Do not think that the only place for imagination is within a microchip?
Are capable of creating a car which is not a development of last year's but seeks the unfair advantage?
That last point ...... Ferrari certainly set a trend when they produced their new brakes - now everyone else is using them.
#27
Posted 09 January 2003 - 20:14
Originally posted by David Beard
Convincing stuff....
Are we to believe, then, that the current breed of F1 designers:-
Do not merely follow F1 fashion trends?
Are not afraid to make the odd innovation for fear of not providing a quick return for the sponsors?
I would posit that the "fashion trends" are more engineering/wind tunnel driven than appearance driven. IMO the appearances of the cars has been going downhill for the last several years (decades?) The more developed these cars are "within the rules extant" the more similarity one will see as the areas of development decrease in number. When an innovator is able to think/produce outside the box a whole new area for development may be opened.
Sometimes these new innovations backfire (canst thou say "Jaguar?") Sometimes they are so innovative (and provide such an advantage) that they are either officially banned or effectively shelved by polemics (Brabham 46B fan car, Lotus 88.)
#28
Posted 09 January 2003 - 21:26
I would think that the basic problem is the inertia of the fuel "slug" that needs to be accelerated such that sufficient volume of fuel is delivered at the correct time and duration.
Just as a thought experiment, but I would look toward a manifolding system that could keep the fuel flowing at delivery pressure, let say circulating at varying high rotational speeds, in a toroidial plenum manifold, with peripheral delivery ports in sequence. Radial speed being controlled by the ECU for tailoring to delivery needs. The upsweep in revs should be able to be matched by a veneering clutch system.
Something like the blood component mass separators used in the laboratory.
What say ye, any thoughts?
#29
Posted 10 January 2003 - 17:00
Originally posted by hawkeracer
[B
Something like the blood component mass separators used in the laboratory.
What say ye, any thoughts? [/B]
Interesting of course...but not much nostalgia coming through.
Here's a new F1 car roll out
http://www.sauber.ch..._Rollout_51.jpg
Yawn...more of the same.
#30
Posted 10 January 2003 - 22:09
Originally posted by David Hyland
I seem to remember reading years ago about an incident (at Spa IIRC) where a driver crashed due to a suspension failure (lower wishbone breaking) and either he didn't know what had caused the accident and/or his team didn't believe him, but a photographer just happened to have taken a head-on shot of the car at the exact moment the wishbone snapped. Is this the incident I'm thinking of? If so, does anyone have the photo? (I remember seeing it "somewhere"...)
Thanks,
David.
#31
Posted 10 January 2003 - 22:15
Originally posted by Roger Clark
I'm not sure that's the Cooper with the brakes I was talking about, Roger....I think I mean an earlier one: you would be able to see the discs in that photo, and you can't. Will investigate further...
#32
Posted 10 January 2003 - 22:32
Originally posted by David Beard
I'm not sure that's the Cooper with the brakes I was talking about, Roger....I think I mean an earlier one: you would be able to see the discs in that photo, and you can't. Will investigate further...
I can't do Cooper type numbers...but these are the brakes I mean.
#33
Posted 10 January 2003 - 22:42
#34
Posted 10 January 2003 - 22:44
Originally posted by hawkeracer
"... I would think that the basic problem is the inertia of the fuel "slug" that needs to be accelerated such that sufficient volume of fuel is delivered at the correct time and duration.
Just as a thought experiment, but I would look toward a manifolding system that could keep the fuel flowing at delivery pressure, let say circulating at varying high rotational speeds, in a toroidial plenum manifold, with peripheral delivery ports in sequence. Radial speed being controlled by the ECU for tailoring to delivery needs. The upsweep in revs should be able to be matched by a veneering clutch system..."
At the risk of getting this thread moved over to TTF, we should contain the comparisons and evolutions from and to the past... but to summarize on this vein, if you're talking about a ‘manifolding system’ per se, then it isn't GDI. The metering system is CPU controlled and pumped directly into the combustion chamber, if I’m not mistaken about its operation.
Charlie,
In the current and recent past, cars that have been designed with the raised nose (here we go again), were spawned by Tyrrell's desginer, Harvey Postlethwaite in partnership with aerodynamicist Jean-Claude Migeot with their 1990 creation of the 019. I thought that this direction was instigated by FIA's "no-go boxes" rule on aerodynamic limitations to try to control the speed of the cars. I think I was proven wrong, (no big feat there) that the 019 came prior to those changes... Anybody want the last word on this one?
It has often been discussed, that designers and engineers will reclaim lost speed through technology. So why not lift the restrictions, let diversity and free thought reign - to provide a greater disparity among the cars and promote out-of-the-box thinking. It sure would make for a more interesting outcome IMO.
#35
Posted 10 January 2003 - 22:52
Originally posted by Roger Clark
Yours was the Cooper-Maserati and this is the BRM engined car but the brakes and suspension were similar:
OK, I give in. (I know more about cricket than Coopers )
#36
Posted 11 January 2003 - 00:39
Originally posted by David Beard
OK, I give in. (I know more about cricket than Coopers )
...don't feel so sad... You'll get used to that around here...
#37
Posted 11 January 2003 - 05:07
#38
Posted 12 January 2003 - 23:50
Originally posted by Roger Clark
Thanks, Roger. That's the exact photo I was thinking of.
David.
#39
Posted 21 January 2003 - 15:44
Originally posted by dolomite
That was the first complete carbon fibre chassis, but people were making bits and pieces out of the stuff from the mid seventies onwards. Rolf Stommelen's crash in the Hill GH1 at Barcelona in 1975 was due to the failure of an experimental carbon fibre rear wing support, IIRC.
Does anyone know when the material first made its appearance on a F1 car? And, I'd assume that "first" would be the first time in auto racing in any division.
... and triggered from the other "retro" thread, when was the first time radios were used in F1? And was that a first as well in auto racing?
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#40
Posted 29 January 2003 - 22:27
http://home.planetin...~cuj229/182.jpg
#41
Posted 29 January 2003 - 22:38
Re carbon composites - Gordon Murray made very early low-stress use of lightweight panels in Brabham, Hill then tried to make high-stress use of lightweight material as wing post for Spanish GP, 1975. On Stommelen's car. It failed...fatally for five bystanders...
DCN
#42
Posted 29 January 2003 - 23:41
#43
Posted 30 January 2003 - 00:27
Looking at that mechanism I think it probably moved from side to side as well.....Originally posted by Roger Clark
I find it amazing that the steeering on the Lotus 63 woroked at all. Is it true that the steering wheel moved backwards and forwards as lock was applied?
#44
Posted 30 January 2003 - 06:50
The 1st successful widespread use of CFRP I am aware of in motorsport was by Specialised Mouldings' use of CF to reinforce their fiberglass body panels particularly the large panels used in Can-Am cars.
The McLaren MP4/1 and the Lotus T88 chassis appeared virtually simultaneously in 1981, the MP4/1 chassis using something quite similar to today's practice of forming the prepreg cloth structure around an internal aluminum mandrel and then curing under pressure in an autoclave. This monocoque was actually made by Hercules in the US using techniques worked out in aircraft construction. The Lotus T88 was a more conventional fabrication of sandwiched CF/aramid (Nomex- same as the old drivers' suits) cloth over a honeycomb Nomex core. Similar in concept to the then accepted practice of aluminum skins over an aluminum honeycomb core for stressed panels.
As for GDI, an F1 engineer told me that there probably simply wasn't time for the "vapour-gas exchange" to occur in the time allowed in a modern F1 engine running 18K, echoing the Audi engineer's comments. That of course wasn't a problem with the 300SLR.
Fascinating thread!
#45
Posted 30 January 2003 - 16:26
#46
Posted 30 January 2003 - 16:27
Some engine manufucturers are using metal matrix components already, but the Ferrari uprights were the first MM-components I heard of out of the engine bay. Since the MM-uprights are stiffer than the usual titanium parts, they can be made lighter. Apparantly unsprung weight is of some consideration after all.
#47
Posted 30 January 2003 - 17:34
Originally posted by Roger Clark
I find it amazing that the steeering on the Lotus 63 worked at all. Is it true that the steering wheel moved backwards and forwards as lock was applied?
The rack was mounted on a spherical bearing at one end so yes, the column must have moved around all over the shop as lock was applied. I don't remember any drivers complaining about this, but I do recall that they weren't so keen on threading their shins under the front driveshaft tubes to reach the pedals.
What interested me about the 4wd cars that were produced by Lotus, McLaren, Cosworth and Matra in 1969 was that they demonstrated there was engineering capability within these firms that exceeded what was needed to produce the ubiquitous DFV powered, ally tubbed kit car.
#48
Posted 30 January 2003 - 19:31
Originally posted by David Beard
What interested me about the 4wd cars that were produced by Lotus, McLaren, Cosworth and Matra in 1969 was that they demonstrated there was engineering capability within these firms that exceeded what was needed to produce the ubiquitous DFV powered, ally tubbed kit car.
Yes, but the 4WD systems wee provided by Ferguson, or at least used Ferguson principles. Matra, of course had an engineer on loan from Ferguson named Derek Gardner, who impressed Tyrrell and Stewart.
I think that the M9A showed that McLaren were stretching their abilities with 4WD, but the others all had a considerable amount of engineering capability to draw on.
#49
Posted 30 January 2003 - 19:39
Originally posted by Roger Clark
I think that the M9A showed that McLaren were stretching their abilities with 4WD, but the others all had a considerable amount of engineering capability to draw on.
But...was the McLaren any worse than the other efforts...or did Bruce just turn back out of the blind alley a little quicker? (discounting the Cosworth non racer, of course)
#50
Posted 30 January 2003 - 23:34
Of course, it could be that McLaren were more aware than the others, and therefore quicker to abandon the concept...or it could be that they didn't have the conflict between the owner/designer and the drivers that, say, Lotus had.