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#1 Barry Boor

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Posted 08 January 2003 - 23:02

Here is a question, the answer to which I thought I knew, but now I am having doubts.

Between 1959 (British Racing Partnership B.R.M P.25) and 1964 (B.R.P-B.R.M) there were various cars running in F1 wearing a light green colour. Yeoman Credit had it for 1960, then later it became U.D.T Laystall etc etc etc.

Now, the question is, was it always the same green or did it vary from one team to another?

I have this gut feeling that the UDT colour was a bit darker but it was so long ago I cannot be sure any more.

I did speak to Ken Gregory a couple of years back and he gave me a paint reference but I found it to be untraceable.

So......... ?

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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 06:07

You could add the BRP F2 Cooper-Climax of 1958 and the team's F2 Cooper-Borgwards of 1959, not to mention the UDT-Laystall Lotus 19 sportscars

Logic tells us the colour should be the same, but memory plays tricks, which means I can't give you a straight answer. What I do know is that when Martin Stretton was racing his T51 Cooper-Climax about ten years ago he got the "correct" paint code from the Samengo-Turner family but the result didn't seem to me (or others) to be the same as the colour in my (fading?) memory

#3 Doug Nye

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 08:35

Don't take Stretton's daft colour as any yardstick. The basic 'British Grazing Green' adopted by BRP through its various sponsorships should have been a consistent shade, the same for BRP, yeoman Credit, UDT-Laystall and back to BRP. The Stretton colour came in part from him telephoning me to double check a colour. At the time I'd just been provided with a computer system on which there was a Pantone colour chart. I quoted him a Pantone number which - on screen - provided the closest approximation to the colour I recalled and that we had - as we believed - accurately captured on contemporary colour slides and movie film. That Pantone number when mixed by the paint shop he used was 'orrible. Either something to do with my monitor screen adjustment, or Stretton's adjustment or misrecording of the quoted Pantone number perhaps? Yeoman Credit green on historic cars seems ill-fated. John Harper's hastily completed, just sprayed Cooper which won at Goodwood in September was meant to be YC liveried. It appeared with the red nose flash and stripe but over a kind of fudge colour instead of 'Grazing Green'. We thought it looked like 'British Racing Cardboard'.

DCN

#4 Rob29

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 09:05

Thanks Doug,for solving another mystery. I remember seeing that Cooper at Goodwood and was tempted to tell the owner 'your car is the wrong colour' but when I realised it was Martin Stretton,surely he could not have got it that wrong. So I wondered maybe they did use that shade down-under?

#5 David McKinney

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 09:41

Doug's reference to the Stretton colour is presumably the first attempt, before the Samengo-Turner offering resulted in a respray. This was closer to what it should have been, but IMO still not right
And yes, the Harper guess was 'orrible

#6 KJJ

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 10:26

The fellow who runs the Pole Position bookshop near Hay on Wye has a piece of the bodywork from the car that Moss crashed at Goodwood in 1962. It looks the same shade as the current paintwork on that 1962 TT winning 250GTO.

#7 Barry Boor

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 19:37

Thanks for the views, everyone.

I thought that Harper car looked a bit off! As for the Martin Stretton car, I don't think I have seen it.

It looks as though I will need to take a huge armful of paint slip books and head off to Hay-on-Wye!

#8 Barry Boor

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Posted 18 February 2003 - 18:42

Well, thanks to everyone who has offered advice and directions and especially to John Reese, the owner of the bodywork and Sue Bidmead who opened the shop just for me, I can now offer the following information:

Although I would not try to say that I have produced an EXACT match of the colour, the very nearest match that we could see turns out to be a TOYOTA colour, reference 521.

Now obviously this was not the colour that was originally used by Y.C/UDT/BRP but for the purposes of matching, forty plus years later, this is as near as we are going to get, I think.

By the way, here is the piece of cockpit surround, signed by Mr. Moss himself;

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Might I suggest that any race fans interested in books get themselves down to Clyro a.s.a.p. because Pole Position Books is well worth a visit. If you fancy seeing a JPS Lotus cockpit surround, they've got one of those, too!

#9 Frank S

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Posted 19 February 2003 - 19:00

Barry Boor:

. . . Now obviously this was not the colour that was originally used by Y.C/UDT/BRP but for the purposes of matching, forty plus years later, this is as near as we are going to get, I think.



My time-washed memory of the principal color on those Coopers at Riverside, 1960, matches what I see in the photo, and isn't far off that on (Brumm?) 1:43 T51 models I've seen.

In my family we were at a loss for what to call it, and settled on "Chinese Racing Green."

Frank S

#10 Don Capps

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 03:33

Originally posted by Barry Boor
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The more I look at this the more obvious it is that this just the same shade of green used to paint the interiors and other internal crannies of a number of military aircraft..... Indeed, it almost spot on. Perhaps they just picked up a few cans of this paint from the local aircraft repair facility for the YC/UDT/BRP cars?

#11 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 03:55

Thats right Don, it looks like green aviation primer paint...
Sikkens maybe?

#12 Doug Nye

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 10:08

Close - the racing colour was just a littler richer, more creamy, than the thin flat elektron/aluminium primer used on military aircraft in my admittedly limited experience. But certainly v. close. Barry, Humbrol I am sure will do a model aircraft enamel which is as close.

DCN

#13 Barry Boor

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 18:14

Quite possibly, Doug, but as I like to spray my models with acrylic car paint, I shall get a can of Toyota 521 mixed up.

If anyone knows the owners of Historic race cars that should be this colour, perhaps they might pass on the info.

#14 dretceterini

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 18:54

The body panel shown looks correct for the GP cars, but I remember the Lotus 19 being a bit lighter green,and more "silvery". I also remember the Lotus 19 being 2-tone at some venues..a silver-grey lower half of the body...

#15 Barry Boor

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 19:00

I also remember the Lotus 19 being 2-tone at some venues..a silver-grey lower half of the body...



I think the colour to which you refer was in fact, aluminium. They just never painted the chassis - just the fibreglass.

#16 Doug Nye

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 23:49

Correct - in the sense that aluminium sill panels were left in bright metal finish, the chassis frames were graphite grey painted.

DCN

#17 Barry Boor

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 20:23

A very nice man in my local Halfords mixed up a can of Toyota 521 for me and here is the result on a Corgi BRM P.25.

Posted Image

It looks a tad light to me but it was the nearest I could find to the old piece of bodywork shown above.

#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 21:30

Good job you took that photo in front of the Rheims pits, Barry...

You would have been laughed out of town had you taken it at the Nurburgring with those discs.

#19 Roger Clark

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 22:46

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Good job you took that photo in front of the Rheims pits, Barry...

You would have been laughed out of town had you taken it at the Nurburgring with those discs.


But why is the car going the wrong way?

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#20 Barry Boor

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 22:50

I just KNEW someone would ask that. :lol:

But why did Ray assume it was Reims?

#21 D-Type

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 22:53

Ray,

TNF is incredible!

How can you tell it is Reims and not the Ring? Or even Silverstone!

By the way, what were the pits at Avus like?


Roger,

Although it was a Cooper that SM spun in the pitlane and remodelled a DBR 250, in the world of fantasy anything goes!

#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 07:17

Originally posted by Barry Boor
.....But why did Ray assume it was Reims?


I've seen pictures before...

And the thought that it might be AVUS also crossed my mind, but I've never seen pit pictures from AVUS...

#23 Roger Clark

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 12:50

Well, the car is pointing the right way for AVUS, which was an anti-clockwise track. However, it has the racing number for Aintree. I can only conclude that the picture was taken at AVUS before first practice and before the correct numbers were put on the car. Alternatively, it could be a private test session between the two races to allow Hermann to familiarise himself with the car.

#24 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 22:14

But do the AVUS pits look like the Rheims pits?

'Englebert' signs do help, of course... and 'Mercedes-Benz'...

#25 Roger Clark

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 23:15

But not Shell at Reims.

#26 Vitesse2

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 23:32

[Graham Chapman mode]

Enter stage left wearing staff officer's uniform.

"This is all getting too silly. Stop it RIGHT NOW!.

For one thing, it wouldn't say Englebert at AVUS, it would say Continental. Englebert were BELGIAN! And Herrmann would be studying how to get out of the car at speed, not drive it!

So if those are the Spa pits, the car is facing the wrong way. And it would need chocks under the wheels, or it would roll down the hill ...... backwards!

AAARGH - now you've got me at it!!!

Stop it RIGHT NOW" [/Graham Chapman mode]

:)

#27 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 23:48

Still waiting to see what the AVUS pits looked like...

And naturally, it would be Posted Image at AVUS, though those crafty Belgians might have been conned out of a few advertising dollars and thought the could make inroads into the West Berlin market.

#28 Roger Clark

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 23:53

Despite this interjection by Speed Deux, these are important matters which require investigation. Having given the matter serious thought, I have come to the conclusion that the picture is not genuine, but is in fact an elaborate hoax. Whether this was perpetuated by the entrants of the car or by the photographer, I cannot say, but I think we should be told.

#29 Vitesse2

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Posted 08 March 2003 - 00:06

Originally posted by Roger Clark
the picture is not genuine, but is in fact an elaborate hoax.


:eek: :eek:

SHOCK HORROR!! :drunk:

#30 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 March 2003 - 00:08

The answer to that could be booring in the extreme...

Just come good with a picture of the AVUS pits so we can see for once and for all.

And I don't think the team managers went for the wheel discs at Spa...

#31 Vitesse2

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Posted 08 March 2003 - 00:19

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Just come good with a picture of the AVUS pits so we can see for once and for all.


Been looking, can't find one! At least in the 30s, it looks as though there were just a few temporary wooden structures erected on the side of the Autobahn. In fact they look even more temporary than the ones in they put up in Nepliget Park in Budapest in 1936!

#32 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 March 2003 - 00:37

I certainly hope that Barry doesn't transport these pits from circuit to circuit...

That would not be a part of the game.

#33 Rob29

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Posted 08 March 2003 - 10:23

D'ont seem to have been any pits at AVUS -in 1959 anyway. Lots of pics and a map in german,in Louis T Stanley's GPWC but the nearest to pits is a high kerb with #27 painted on it.

#34 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 March 2003 - 10:38

Well there you go, it was Rheims...

When is Barry going to explain himself, anyway?

#35 Barry Boor

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Posted 08 March 2003 - 18:11

Sorry for the delay; I have been away seeing my psychiatrist!

Er..... what can I say? The picture is indeed, a hoax.

The BRM in question is NOT the BRP car, but actually a works car that was stolen in a daring daylight robbery while the staff at Bourne were away having another re-education session with Raymond Mays.

The robbers chose to paint the car this pale green because someone told them it was the official racing colour of Slovenia, under whose name the car was to be entered for the Serbian Grand Prix.

And the pits are not at Reims - nor indeed at Avus, but are actually a mock-up built in the back garden of one of the robbers, a Mr. Pewty, who modelled them on a photograph he once saw on the back of a Corn Flakes packet.

OR

It may be because when I fitted the new windscreen, I couldn't get it to bed down properly on one side and rather than risk breaking it, I decided to turn the model round and photograph it from the other side.

BTW, I REALLY HAVE been away seeing my psychiatrist!

#36 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 March 2003 - 21:40

Yeah, we know...


Trying to convince him that your Welsh Wife is really sane...

#37 Wolf

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 16:21

OK, how about this colour? I know, the car is of definitely much latter date, but in the realm of fantasy... :drunk: Anyways, this is just a colour test of the paintjob I'm doing for P83, and would like expert opinions before I proceed any further. Thanks in advance. :)

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#38 petefenelon

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 16:27

Originally posted by Wolf
OK, how about this colour? I know, the car is of definitely much latter date, but in the realm of fantasy... :drunk: Anyways, this is just a colour test of the paintjob I'm doing for P83, and would like expert opinions before I proceed any further. Thanks in advance. :)

Posted Image


Close - looks a just little too light and metallic to me - needs to be a bit more creamy I think - but I think in the context of the game everyone would know what it was meant to be ;)

#39 stuartbrs

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Posted 18 May 2003 - 06:54

Be careful when choosing or trying to match colours from memory. Having worked in the paint game in a previous life we were taught that it is impossible for the human brain to accuratley remember a colour. It just simply doesnt have the capacity to do so , and also colour is not a constant but changes depending on the type of light that falls on it. In other words your blue sweater looks different to the human eye in the morning sun than it does in the afternoon light.

A spectrometer however, measures the type of light that is reflected from a colour and uses a special bulb which provides the same type of light for each sample taken.

We had people come in who swore this was the colour they were after, "you`d better take a sample home to check" we would say, "no , its definately the right colour" would be the answer. An hour later they would be back ...

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#40 Barry Boor

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 21:30

Using the paint I had made up ffollowing the viewing of the Moss/Lotus/Goodwood panel, here are my U.D.T Laystall Lotus BRMs.

(And before anyone jumps on me, I KNOW they have Climax rear bodywork and low level BRM exhausts but I just couldn't face making 16 upswept exhaust pipes, knowing that I have to make another 16 on the works BRMs.) Anyway, they are MY models!!!! :)

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#41 VAR1016

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 22:14

The early V-16 B.R.M. cars were painted a pale green. Later they were changed to a very dark - "Connaught" as I call it - green . Tony Rudd says that "It didn't show the greasy finger-marks".

Meanwhile, as we are talking about paint, can anyone give me a colour-code for a nice dark Italian red? By this mean the red that was used for the Lancia D50 and for some of the Alfa-Romeo 158s?

Thanks

PdeRL

#42 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 August 2003 - 08:42

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Using the paint I had made up ffollowing the viewing of the Moss/Lotus/Goodwood panel.....


The panel must have faded...

The Lotus 19 was definitely more green than the colour I see here.

#43 Egon Thurner

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Posted 17 August 2003 - 09:38

Talking about light green british cars, the first car of Tony Vanderwell comes to mind, his first Ferrari. I always thought it had been light grey, until I saw this picture. First thought: a faked picture. Then I remembered a pic, I have seen a time ago, a P15 in the same light green. Don't know anymore, where I've seen it. But now, regarding all this light green british F1 cars of the Sixties (really not 'my' period), I ask you:

Is the color of this car authentic ?

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#44 Bladrian

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Posted 17 August 2003 - 14:48

Originally posted by VAR1016
The early V-16 B.R.M. cars were painted a pale green. Later they were changed to a very dark - "Connaught" as I call it - green . Tony Rudd says that "It didn't show the greasy finger-marks".

Meanwhile, as we are talking about paint, can anyone give me a colour-code for a nice dark Italian red? By this mean the red that was used for the Lancia D50 and for some of the Alfa-Romeo 158s?

Thanks

PdeRL


Try Alfa Rosso Corsa - Alfa OEM code 303, and PPG code 71297.
Or Rosso Montecattini (Rosso Italia) - Alfa OEM code C-9068, Glassurit AR504, VW-Audi 'Marsrot'.

#45 VAR1016

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Posted 17 August 2003 - 22:48

Originally posted by Bladrian


Try Alfa Rosso Corsa - Alfa OEM code 303, and PPG code 71297.
Or Rosso Montecattini (Rosso Italia) - Alfa OEM code C-9068, Glassurit AR504, VW-Audi 'Marsrot'.


Many thanks, Bladrian.

I take it that these are the darkish reds, perhaps with a hint of maroon/brown?

I'll investigate.

best wishes

PdeRL

#46 Macca

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 12:24

The other problem with the original 'pale mushy pea' colour of the BRM P15 was, IIRC, that it was very conspicuous where it had been attacked by methanol fuel spills.

I'm afraid I'm not as as thorough as BB - for my Matchbox Lotus 25-converted to Innes'-24 I just went to B & Q and got a matchpot of emulsion that looked like the colour in my photos of the 1964 BRP and then gloss-varnished over it!

Paul M

#47 Richard Neale

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 13:13

When the National Colours for race cars were handed out Great Britain got Green.
I don't think anyone specified the exact colour.
So when did BRG emerge?
Certainly between '46 and the early 50s most cars which you could call representing the 'Nation' appear in the Mushy Pea Green.

:(

The methanol resistance of paint is down to the specific mix or to the clear top coat ~ Nothing to do with the colour.

#48 petefenelon

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 13:30

Originally posted by VAR1016


Many thanks, Bladrian.

I take it that these are the darkish reds, perhaps with a hint of maroon/brown?

I'll investigate.

best wishes

PdeRL



I remember seeing (I think) Carlos Monteverdi's ex-Scuderia Ferrari Alfa a few years back at Coy's -- the next time I saw a similar colour was on a Mazda MX5 'Merlot'.

pete

#49 VAR1016

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 13:40

Originally posted by Richard Neale
So when did BRG emerge?


Well there isn't really a BRG: the colour I think you mean is the traditional dark green used say, by Jaguar, Connaught and the later BRMs. However all these are slightly different shades.

And as my earlier post suggests, there were many variations of Italian "Rosso Corsa".

Aston Martin started with a darkish green but moved on to a light metallic version.

The Lotuses were always painted a lighter green anyway!

PdeRL

#50 Barry Boor

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 17:12

Aston Martin started with a darkish green but moved on to a light metallic version.



Speaking to a guy who makes really top quality scale models, he told me that he had spoken to an ex-Aston Martin mechanic who assured him that Astons had no specific colour. The quote was:

"We just threw in some darkish green and some silver and stirred...."

True enough - if you get 3 Astons lined up together, I'll guaruntee they are all different shades; and apparently, if they weren't sprayed at the same time, they always were different colours.